Following the Sheep

I have a couple of thoughts about this.

I always have a running list. It is fun to look at lists that I wrote over the past 5 years because the list changes. Every time I travel, I become a different person. That different person wants different things, so the list changes. I don't label my list with the word "bucket", but I guess it fits well enough.

My original travel list left out certain places just for the reason that they are popular (Italy, Paris). I have now been to Italy from Milan to Rome. The experience was priceless and I don't regret it, but I don't have a desire to go back to Northern Italy. (Rome again and south are on my list). I went to Italy because my husband told me that he wanted me to see Florence. He also told me that I have to see Paris. I was planning a trip to Paris for September, 2020. I will admit that despite my original hesitation, I have fallen in love with Paris and I haven't even been there yet. It turns out that popular places are popular for a reason. My husband didn't advise me to see Paris for the Eiffel Tower. Some people only go for the Eiffel tower, which is fine because it is their trip.

I would happily complain about the Instagrammers. Seeing young women twirling in their carefully planned outfit while their poor boyfriends take a hundred pics of them makes me cringe, but in the end, their right to search for the perfect picture is equal to my right to connect with history and a new culture. You are in my way when I am traveling, and I am in your way. Hopefully, we can politely move past each other.

I will preface by saying in my Myers Briggs personality I have a J (Judgement). There is also a middle of the road I (Introvert). I am near Senior Citizen age and I am often contrary to the being told what to do....so you know I am going to say 'I am not a sheep'. I only use Instagram to let my kids know I am alive when I am on the road, or to see my daughter's photo exercises. I hate (really hate) the concept of Instagram 'influencers'. It saddens me that people are not reading and making independent choices of what interests 'them'. However, on certain days I am more tolerant, accepting of different paths led and can see that the mechanisms that caught my interest are different than current mechanisms used. As you say, Allan, 'Don't our dreams need to start somewhere'? So, I try to just be quiet about how they get to that point, and be glad they come to travel in some way. Thankfully, traveling off season seems to keep me away from the poseurs and their mobile dressing rooms. I am not sure I could avoid be a #$tch and sabotaging it. Vandabrod is a lot more tolerant than I am as far as others imposing their needs on so many others in the immediate area, but then I have rarely traveled where it is wall to wall people, and don't live in such a metropolis that I can't find a good amount of personal space.

That's why the Back Door has the appeal it does.

Emma, yes, absolutely.

I contend that unless something introduces us to traveling (wherever), we are not inspired to go. We don’t know to go. In my young years, it was books. Who knows why that 5th grade class set of historical biographies that included a book about El Greco should stay with me for so long - but it did.

Now there is so much more information available - be it the internet, Instagram, tv & movies, Rick Steves, or friends. But we are all different and we all have a first trip SOMEWHERE. And for SOME reason - but probably not the same reasons we have ten years later. And if all you know is that you “want to go” but not where, a list of Top Ten is as good a place to start as any. Most lists I see are simplistic and surface-level, but Phuket is still real Thailand - even if you spend time looking for the best photo. You can’t avoid it. Iceland is still Iceland.

It is sure fine for Sam to think about it, but I think maybe she has just forgotten what it’s like to be new at the travel game.

I also love Instagram for travel inspiration - unless the images are photoshopped/improved or the person is primary and the location is just blurry backdrop. The first are fake and the second is just someone’s private photo and I just don’t follow either. Easy to leave it be. And I have waited on MANY people to take their photo in many places (and I have been one of those people), but have yet to be seriously inconvenienced - whether they were wearing jeans, shorts, a suit, or a fancy dress.

As far as deciding what another person is getting out of their travels? Or why they travel? How could I know?

IMO first time travelers should visit the BIG cities. World class cities have earned their reputation. Wandering to second level towns and rural areas are for return travels.

I disagree. After 13 European trips, we’ve barely stepped foot in a major city or too tourist destination. We’ve been to Austria 10 times and still have no interest in ever seeing Vienna. Flew into Munich 10 times and have stayed a total of 2 nights. One too many for us. Salzburg for a dinner and stroll, but we prefer no name places and little towns and villages in the countryside.

IMO first time travelers should visit the BIG cities. World class
cities have earned their reputation. Wandering to second level towns
and rural areas are for return travels.

I'm not sure if I would agree with your phrase 'should visit', but if I was asked by a friend, I would likely recommend a city over rural for a first time visit as a way to acclimatize yourself to a new languages, transportation options, etc., but full disclosure, I love big cities and urban hiking. But as Paul stated, that may not be for everyone. I have a coworker who was supposed to have made a family trip to Italy last summer for their first adventure outside of North America and the Caribbean. They were going to fly into Rome but then head straight for the middle of nowhere for a week of camping and mountain biking. Not my cup of tea, but his family lives for the outdoors and it was a dream vacation for them.

IMO first time travelers should visit the BIG cities. World class cities have earned their reputation. Wandering to second level towns and rural areas are for return travels.

This is a good comment. Despite the RS planning advice, most people will only be there once in their lives, so its not being a sheep to want to see the major cities and attractions. As far as social media addicts, you dont have to hate them or thank them, just recognize they aren't really talking to you. Or better yet, just ignore them. All those lists - top ten, etc., I see as mostly paid advertising. You have to judge the source and determine what advice is worth taking.

I'm a fan of both museums and interesting architecture. The former tend to be concentrated in major cities, and I frequently plunk myself down somewhere for a week or even longer. However, I find the atmosphere in smaller places that draw fewer foreign tourists often feels more authentic, and there's often lots of historic architecture to enjoy. In addition, you're less likely to find Starbucks, Kentucky Fried Chicken, etc., on every corner. When I see proposed itineraries for first trips on this forum, I often think they should cover less territory and include at least one or two smaller cities. I believe that would make for a more enjoyable trip for many travelers, though obviously not all. It's difficult to convince folks they should go somewhere they haven't heard of, though.

When I see proposed itineraries for first trips on this forum, I often
think they should cover less territory and include at least one or two
smaller cities. I believe that would make for a more enjoyable trip
for many travelers, though obviously not all. It's difficult to
convince folks they should go somewhere they haven't heard of, though.

How true. It took an RS tour to make me realize it. We were on the Loire to the South of France tour last year because it hit quite a few high profile spots I wanted to see. But I'd never heard of the Dordogne region-except that Lascaux Caves were there. The Dordogne turned out to be my favourite region of the trip, Sarlat, Beynac, cliff top castles...even though I'm a city guy, this region will get another look from me.

Paul, Vienna, Munich and Salzburg are not world class cities. I’ve been to all of them and don’t need to return. They were transfer points in our European travels. World cities in Europe are London, Paris, Rome, and Istanbul. Second tier cities are in most Eastern European countries (to numerous to try to list) and are part of first, second, etc trips. This is for the typical traveler not folks who love to hike, camp, bike, ski and other outdoor enthusiasts. I like to get off the main travel circuit. We have made many trips all over Europe so not the typical traveler. The big 4 (UK, France, Italy and Spain) take multiple trips to explore the different regions food, history and environment. Central and Eastern Europe are our favorite countries to explore at this time. They are up and coming since 1989 post communism and post Yugoslavian wars. Go to these countries to find the back doors. Austria doesn’t count. The further east you go the fewer Americans you will encounter. I sure miss our yearly travels.

This conversation reminds me of the traveler vs tourist argument. Those who want to puff out their chest and proclaim..."I am a traveler"....as if it makes them better than others. To the locals, we're all tourists.

The same goes for "sheep." Too many proclamations or defenses of "I am not a sheep." For someone who has limited time and possibly limited funds, they want to maximize their time. They want to see as much as possible. They may even want to go to places not in Europe. They may only see the "highlights" but at least they are getting out there.

While it may not be the way I prefer to travel, I respect what they are doing. The more people we can get out there experiencing other cultures, the better understanding they will have of people different from them in their own country. It sure as heck beats an unlimited beer cruise where the passenger may never leave the ship.

The OP wrote: I’ll happily plan a date with Mona Lisa for a Wednesday at 8:30-just the two of us.

And how did you find out that this is a good time to go? Perhaps a guidebook?

If you follow the sheep, you might find the greenest pastures. Just watch your step!

Isn’t Rick Steves just an influencer for the older generation and
therefore the people who follow his every word also basically “sheep”?
:-)

That had occurred to me as well. Of course, our flock is better than their flock...

Out of curiosity I was researching the motivations of Travel Instagrammers/Influencers and found this article. If there was a chance I could make £30,000/month I would probably be willing to annoy all of you as well. https://tourismteacher.com/travel-influencer-income/

In rural northern England some of the sheep tracks are more used than the public walking tracks that cross sheep pastures. Having Ordnance Survey maps and a GPS got us back on track a number of times on our walking holidays. So yes, don't follow the sheep.

@Allan,I find that Influencer wage a little low, but I may be thinking my Cdn$. I know a couple of them that went to the jobs as it paid more that their professional degree jobs. They also had a bit of a niche market and when the got married summer 2019, they had 6 wedding dresses between them, 5 caterers vieing for their business, several free photographers including drone footage. It was an extended event to take advantage of the freebies, and ensure all of them were captured in images as well as write-ups. Then there is the organizing duo who have never had to advertise as all business comes via Instagram. They have organized Kardashian closets, spun off to a Netflix series, have numerous offices across the US all in 5 years. I realize they are not the norm, but they have something. It's that type of influence that makes me nervous and dare I say...judgemental?🤪

Our first visit in 2008 we visited...Rome, Venice and London. But we also visited...Cinque Terre (before it got too overrun), Genoa and Bologna. I love mixing in big and small places - I find the smaller places are great for unwinding.

As for photos in Insta - well, I have been inspired to search out things I've seen there - the funniest one was photos of a particular door in Ravello (backstory - I love taking photos of old doors!) so we wandered around Ravello, me trying to find 'that' door. No luck. We sit in the main square to have lunch, I look across the way - and there is 'the door'! And yes, I got my picture. For me, it's scenery - I see some photos that really spark my interest and try and seek that spot out.

Other insta photos that influenced me - a certain angle for taking pics of the Louvre pyramids - inspired me to go at night and get my own shots - and they turned out amazing (if I do say so myself). Seeing photos of Neal's Yard in London and seeking that out. Seeing photos of the Kelpies in Scotland - well, didn't get to see them yet but they are on the list when we can travel again. Even just seeing photos of an empty Venice at sunrise inspired me to get up at ungodly hours and head out to Rialto and ST Mark's Sq.

Well, considering that I don't own an RS guidebook, haven't taken a tour, rarely watch the programs, am not a Sam Brown fan, check a bag, and feel that "truly" experiencing local culture is a myth unless maybe one can live in it for years, I guess that puts me squarely in with the less "evolved" lot; a Traveling Neanderthal of sorts. Maybe having belonged to four or so forums - several with broader international communities than this one - keeps my knuckles barely off ground? HA! 😉

Yep, as Frank said, the conversation reminds me of the whole tourist-versus-traveler nonsense. That horse has been soundly, tiredly flogged on forums for years and years. Same with cruise bashing, and to what ends? Folks won't hang around if they feel marginalized, if they're afraid of being seen as not "evolved," not "smart," sniffed at for their personal preferences and interests, unkindly and unfairly labeled as creatures of a lesser flock by the creatures of another who'd never apply that label to themselves?

Allan, you're spot on that our dreams start somewhere! However we realize them is fine and dandy as long as it makes for lifelong memories? An aunt and uncle were able to afford one dream trip in their lifetime: a cruise to Hawaii, bus-tour shore excursions and all. Not at all my style but the stars in their eyes...well, that's what it's all about, innit?

Anyway, if an Instagram account makes one a wool-bearing mammal: 🙂
https://www.instagram.com/ricksteveseurope/?hl=en

I would have to agree with Cyn "If you follow the sheep, you might find the greenest pastures." There are times that the sheep are right, despite being sheep. I would go on to add, you cannot always listen to the goats (people who down places, leave bad reviews, etc.) either. My example of this is PIsa, before my fist visit I have no idea how many bad reviews I read, if left to the reviews I would not have gone. Pisa turns out was a real highlight of that trip. Could just be it was a beautiful day, on a trip filled with many rainy cloudy days, could be many other things as well.

The point is you never know what may speak to you.

Just go and see what speaks to you.

My example of this is PIsa, before my fist visit I have no idea how
many bad reviews I read, if left to the reviews I would not have gone.
Pisa turns out was a real highlight of that trip.

In his book, RS says that you can buy an ice cream cone at one end of Cannes and before you've had your last lick, see everything worth seeing. Like you with Pisa, we had a memorable day and loved it. You never know.

To avoid being among the sheep google 100 best tourist attractions in Europe. You will get maybe 20 lists. Combine all the lists and avoid every one of them.

I'm with Frank and Kathy.

Edgar, that's funny. Careful of the sheep you follow.

"To avoid being among the sheep google 100 best tourist attractions in Europe. You will get maybe 20 lists. Combine all the lists and avoid every one of them." - James, easier said than done. Just when I thought I was out, the sheep drag me back in. I've learned to follow the sheep at a distance, staying behind to nibble at the grass - I go to a favourite local cafe or outdoor market, wearing my lederhosen, Gucci shoes, beret or trilby, depending on where I am. I always talk to the locals, even if they don't understand me (I get queer looks sometimes). When the flock dies down, I move in and act like a tourist, apart from leaving a 20% tip in restaurants.

I can just see you getting mixed up one day and rocking up to a French market in lederhosen, a Trilby, and Gucci shoes (with knee socks).

Emma is saucy!

For the Elite Travel Class, remember not everyone can afford to visit Europe every year. Maybe some people, if they're lucky, have a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Europe. Of course they're going to visit Paris and Versailles.

Maybe it's my misinterpretation of some of the comments, but the intent of the post wasn't to discourage people from visiting the hot spots, but to point out that visiting them is just fine, but not to follow the sheep and plan your visit accordingly to avoid the crowds as best you can.

Yes, Allan, I understood that. Sometimes you do follow the sheep because there is a reason they are drawn to major attractions. However, as you say, plan your time accordingly. I've never traveled in the summer so I've missed some crowds that way.

I am so ready for the pandemic to end and we can get back to our usual never ending debates on packing, credit cards vs cash, and assorted common conflicts that often appear here. There is no need for new ones. (Said tongue in cheek since tone can’t be read)

The bottom line on almost all of these issues is do what works for you and your travel interests/needs. I really don’t mind that not everyone thinks the same on these issues. Be a sheep or not a sheep, who cares? What matters is that you are traveling and the trip is meeting the needs that you decided were the most important for you.

I hope we can all be a part of choosing the line to the left or the line to the right soon.

Lol we don't even have the instagram account, only my kids have. some of the pics taken in the instagram is very professional taken anyway, I dont think I could take nice pics like that :-) .
Now, I just watch youtube, forum, blogs to get the ideas planning the trip. 12 years ago our first DIY trip with the kids to Paris , London , there was not much youtube or vlog yet, but from the forums, we went to most of the 'touristy' spots plus others and love it ! Some of the trips when we did not have time to plan, or not much time to stay we took the group day tour and it is OK for us. One trip to Japan we took the day tour to visit Kyoto temples, palaces and Nara , it was little rush but we were happy with the tour , but a year later we went with the kids , my sister & nephew. My nephew planned it very well, we visited the same locations & more, we took the train/bus/metro , it is longer, but a lot cheaper and more fun, no rush. Next day we went to Nara, again with train/bus/metro and met up with a tour guide from a facebook group free tour Kyoto , she was very nice , we got a lot more in terms of info & places to visit and even with the general tips it is very much worth it for 6 of us.

In summary, we thank you for all the sheep that lead the way so we can follow them a little bit and wander out a little more. Now we going to plan the 'slow travel' so we will have a lot more time to plan, maybe do not have to follow the sheep (in the peak time) and get to know more about places, cultures etc ...

Nigel, your fashion sense is not as outlandish as it first appears, and has given me something to think on. I'll have my missus try it out first, just in case.

And even if you’re in a smaller flock, away from the big, wooly one, still watch out for wolves. Moneybelts, being mindful of Dynamic Currency Conversion attempts and ZTL rules, etc., care around ATM’s, and having good guidebook info - especially about popular attractions - are your best “sheepdogs.”

I wear the money belt front and center. You want it, come and get it. I am a man.

Allan - thank you for starting this entertaining thread and so many others during this pandemic.
Emma - great point on influencers, and I agree!
Edgar - we have experienced your sheep comment!
I appreciate the different points of view. For me, a big part of the fun of traveling is doing all kinds of research before I go (much of which I end up disregarding). It's also important to know yourself and what is important to you. There have been times when I've loved something the herd has not. A case in point was viewing the Book of Kells. Though I've seen many posts on this forum that it is a waste of time, it was one of the highlights of Dublin for me.

Well, we’re not interested in world class cities or cities at all really. We found Castle Churburg in the Val Venosta, The Diocean Museum in Bressanone and St. John’s in Mustair Switzerland all the world class sightseeing we needed. We do not like crowds, do not like the noise and congestion of cities anywhere. That would not be a vacation for us.

Paul

This is a diverse bunch! That is a GOOD thing, IMHO. :O)
When it comes to individual preferences for the whats, wheres, whys and hows of adventuring, maybe Dr. Seuss said it best?

"You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself
any direction you choose.
You’re on your own. And you know what you know.
And YOU are the guy who’ll decide where to go."

From "Oh, the places you'll go!"

I'll be the first to admit there is plenty about "influencer" culture that strikes me as vapid, hollow, and unappealing.

Having said that, I also believe social media and influencers can democratize an audience's process of being exposed to information so long as we're deliberate and conscious about how we take that information in.

Do folks like Rick Steves, Rudy Maxa, Samantha Brown, or whoever else might have a travel show get to monopolize exposing others to new sights and destinations and influencing how we go about traveling and where we travel to? Do the publishers and editors of travel books get to have the loudest and perhaps even final word? How much might we miss out on if we're only made aware of places and things through the stories told to us by people we know who've been there and experienced it before?

I'd say it's a pretty great time to be a traveler, with so many platforms through which we can find out about different places, learn new tips and tricks, get advice, and come across the shared experiences of others that we realize we might want to experience for ourselves in some way. We can watch travel shows, read books and magazines, read blogs, scroll through Instagram, watch YouTube vlogs. At that point, it's up to us to process and filter the information we're exposing ourselves to in a way that suits us best, and do with it as we choose.

Kathy, your Dr. Suess reference is brilliant.

A slightly different take on “don’t follow the sheep” for me involves food. This is one area if there is a line of locals for food, I am in. I remember once in Istanbul, there was the enormously long line for coffee. It was not only delicious, but I purchased a fresh ground coffee to bring home. In Shanghai, there are a lot of soup buns and I once stood in line for some of the best I had in my trip. All of the world, I found that the lines that were the longest had some of the best food/drink.

Now I am willing to consider that my standing in those long lines might have made everything taste just a little better :)

Sandy

Sandy: ...“don’t follow the sheep” for me involves food. This is one area if there is a line of locals for food, I am in.

Long lines of locals queuing for food reminds me of Shanghai five years ago. A restaurant near Shanghai's Yu Gardens that specialized in soup dumplings (Xiaolongbao) had a very long line of locals. The ground floor of the restaurant with the long line was for the "to go" counter. The restaurant had several floors with upper floors having sit down service and the top floor the most elegant with table cloths. The lines for each higher floor diminished and we had no wait for the top floor. Capitalistic pricing for essentially the same food resulted in long lines for the more economical take away and the shortest lines for the literally higher class sit down dining.

A slightly different take on “don’t follow the sheep” for me involves
food. This is one area if there is a line of locals for food, I am in.

When I read this I couldn't help but think of the Seinfeld episode with the Soup Nazi.

But you're correct as long as it's the right location. In Venice we were staying at a hotel that was about a 15 minute walk from St. Mark's. Travel 101 says stay away from the restaurants with pictures for menus; which seems to be all of them near St. Mark's. But near our hotel we found several restaurants with short lines of locals. The local sheep know where to go.

SandyO

You stood in line and as a result you built a memory so pleasant that you share it here. Isnt that one of the principal reasons for travel: build fond memories. So it was an unmitigated success. I think sometimes we try so hard to be "experts" that we miss all the fun.

I follow the sheep if they lead what interests me, but I only choose that what interests me. I've had some remarkable experiences and developed some fond memories on both roads. Sometimes its the odd little moments that stick with you. As strange as it may seam, one of my best involved me attempting to get my picture taken in the biggest hotspot in Kyiv. Before she could push the button a gentleman approached me and in Ukrainian began criticizing my posture and the appearance of my clothes. Unfit for a photo was the obvious message. I made the corrections he pointed to, then put my arm around him and pulled him in the photo. Today its the only travel photo hanging on my wall. Why? I have no idea, just touched me.

So when you find a line to a thing of interest, join in. Make the line part of the event and feel just a touch sorry for those missing out to look "experienced".

G-d Bless.

Long lines can be good or bad depending on who is in the line.

Anthony Bourdain used to say to choose the best street food, look for the one with a line of locals. They know what's good and safe.

Last year, I was in Hiroshima looking for some good Okonomiyaki. There were three restaurants all next to each other specialzing in the dish. The one on the left had no wait while the other two had a wait. Most of the people waiting were locals. I wanted to wait for one of the two busy restaurants but I was with friends and they were hungry. We went to the restaurant with no wait. The food was bland and tasteless. (The reason it wasn't popular.) People we knew who went to the other restaurants said their food was delicious.

A long line could mean a secret hotspot known to the locals or a social media powerhouse where tourists go and locals stay away. Sorry, but if I see a line of people holding a blue and gold guidebook because they get a discount, I go somewhere else.

Years ago I visited Okinawa. We didn't study the sights ahead of time, so hired a taxi driver to give us a tour. He showed us massage parlors, strip joints and gambling. Apparently that's what he thought American tourists were interested in? After I got home I read an article about a 15th century Shogun palace that would have definitely topped my list of sights in Okinawa.

Since then, I do a lot of research and build as complete a list, of possible sights, as I can. From that I sort the list, based on my personal interest, into three categories - must see, good to see if I have time and things to skip. I decide how much time to spend in a place based on the number of (my) must sees there. Fighting crowds tends to push things into the skip category. I've been to Paris eight times but never stepped foot on the Eifel Tower because it's on my things to skip list, partly because of crowds and partly because it's not that interesting to me. I'm sure others consider it their top sight. I was planning to skip Mona Lisa, because of crowds, until I found myself the first visitor in the Louvre one morning.

Travel books fall into categories. Some are exhaustive lists of things to see and do (Michelin Green Guide) or very limited coverage with more detail (Rick Steves). There's a place for both. I loved RS when I went to Granada because of the detail about gaining admission to the Alhambra without reservations. On the other hand I wasn't pleased when I was wandering Northern Italy and realized RS covers almost nothing in the area.

Guided tours are worse, IMO, because they take you to a generic list of sights that are likely not your top choices.

I advise any friend who wants to travel to first decide what sights you want to see then build a plan to see those. Don't waste time and money chasing sights because they appeal to crowds but not to you.

Brad, that’s practical advice, for effective use of travel time.

Your Okinawa experience sounded surprising at first, but could’ve resulted in a different kind of “back door” trip. Some taxi guides must be better than others!