First-timers in Europe

I usually suggest to first-timers to Europe: London, Paris, Rome. With only 10 days London and Paris.

London and then eurostar to Paris is nice. But if you want Italy than go for it. Two places would be good..... I went to Florence for my first time.

Paris and Venice would be just swell. 10 days will give you enough time. Paris, the first day will be jet lag recovery. Then explore the city 3 days, take an out-of-town trip to Versailles for a day. You will not run of things in 5 days.

It will be almost a full day traveling from Paris to Venice, check out, get to the airport, check in, through security, wait, fly to Venice, get luggage, get into Venice, check in to hotel. With 5 adults, spring for a water taxi to your hotel. From Venice, visit Padua and Verona for day trips to get another aspect of Italy.

Take a taxi from the airport in Paris. There are fixed fees in effect, depending on your destination - 50 or 55 EU. The 5th passenger will pay an additional 4 EU, there is no charge for luggage.
Hand the driver the complete address of your hotel, including the Postal Code, so there won't be any confusion.
You should book two rooms in a hotel, rather than an apartment, since hotels always have air-conditioning and apartments do not. If you are staying less than one week, the owner might prefer to rent it for a longer period, and you might find yourself with a last-minute cancellation.
It is extremely difficult to discover if an apartment is legal - most are not.
You'll also benefit from having two full bathrooms and real beds for everybody to sleep in.
Most people prefer to stay in the Latin Quarter or the Marais - look for Postal Codes 75003, 75004, 75005 and 75006.

You might consider Venezia first, since internationally connected flights out of Venezia can start very early in the morning, although reserving a water taxi would solve part of that problem. Also, you may be able to find nonstop flights out of Paris to your home city.

Zoe took the thought right out of my fingers. Besides the logistics, Venice is low-key, so it's an easier place to get over jetlag while you relax and soak up the atmosphere. You've picked my two favorite cities (and both are romantic), so I vote YES.

Start looking for hotels now to find the best options. July is a popular month and it's only 4 months away.

I assume you are looking at open-jaw flights and a European flight between the cities. If you do fly from Venice to Paris, some tips - Beauvais is sometimes shown as a Paris airport. It is remote. Fly into de Gaulle or Orly. From Italy, you may get more options and better prices flying from a nearish airport - Verona isn't far, Bologna has a lot of flights and would be worth an overnight there or in Ferrara, with a chance to see another Italian city.

A 10 day trip usually means 9 nights away, with one night lost flying transatlantic.

If you have 8 nights, split them evenly between Paris and Venice, and possibly take a day to visit Florence from Venice.

Hit Venice first and look at easyjet for your flight to Paris.

I agree that with only 10 days you should limit it to two major European destinations. For me, I'd do Rome & Paris. There is so much to see and do in both those cities.

Paris and Venice are great places to visit. However, they are not close together. I suggest that you visit either Italy (Venice, Florence and Rome) or Paris and a closer city (consider Belgium with Brussels, Brugges and Ghent.)

Paris and Venice are my two favorite cities in Europe. I think you will have a vacation that you will treasure for the rest of you life! If you are looking for another city to visit while in Italy, I would choose Florence. Rome deserves more time than you would have.

If you go to Paris first, I suggest taking the overnight train from Paris to Venice. I think it is on part of the old Orient Express route, but you need to check me on that. You must get compartments to sleep, however. Its hours of transport are perfect and it is an European adventure. European overnight trains might not exist much longer so it will be an experience you might not be able to have in the future. By going on the train, you don't miss a day in flight, (flying is not still part of your vacation, IMO). I sleep well on trains, others do not, but I'm not sure they get their own room. Even if some of you didn't sleep, (I don't know why one wouldn't), it is a fun experience. Only listen to those who actually purchase a bed or a compartment with only people they know on the train.

However, as others have said, flying home from Venice is early and I'm not a morning person. That being said, I'd rather wake up my first rested day in Paris anytime then Venice. Florence is actually my favorite!

It is actually cheaper and less time-consuming to buy tickets on EasyJet from Paris to Venice (or vice-versa), than it is to buy sleeper compartment tickets - from which you will see virtually nothing of the countryside.

It is only 90 minutes from Paris to Venice via EasyJet...we paid 28 EU roundtrip last year.

But the train is actually fun! :) Also, convenient. I'll pay for fun and an adventure anytime, and do. Not the to and from airport hassle. Have a lovely dinner, walk into the station, wake up and you are in Venice! But we all decide how to spend our money, mine is on convenience, comfort and fun...not speed. You'll also get a lot of naysayers about trains, but I don't know them and I don't know why they have their issues with the train. Everyone's different. You need to decide what you want or want to try. I find airports an annoying necessity so avoid them when I can. And you meet some amazing people in the restaurant car (assuming they have one) as well, or I have. Whereas I've never met anyone on a plane...that was particularly interesting.

Two cities maximum. Bear in mind that with each change of location you lose 1/2 to 3/4 of a day (closer to 3/4 if you fly). Airports aren't located in the city centers which means you need to travel from the city and then to the new city along with your flight which can add another hour of so each way. Thus, I'd recommend picking two cities that you can do via train (which typically goes city center to city center).. As for suggestions, it really depends upon the interests of your group! Art, history, scenic countryside, etc., etc.
London and then Paris is a great choice given the number of days you have - plenty to see in both cities that covers a range of interests (art, history and food!) with a minimum of time spent in transit between the two.
As first timers to Europe, this is a very easy trip - starting in London first also gives you the advantage of not having to deal with a
foreign language until you get your "feet under you".
Venice is lovely, but to be honest, I don't think I could fill 4 days there - but again, it all depends upon the groups interests and style of travel!

Wray.. you have different memories than me.. I would rather scoup out my eyeballs with rusty spoons than take a night train again.. lol

No sleep. noisy. bathrooms were grim.

I also think the night trains often arrive so early in the morning you cant do anything but haul your bags around .. you can go to some hotels and check your bags.. but I have stayed in small hotels that you would have to ring in at 6.30 am and I always felt that was a bit rude.. so would find a café. First day in arrival city.. I felt dirty and in a tired daze. No.. my memories are different than yours for sure.. lol

I thought I read somewhere that they were discontinuing the night trains ?

Ten days.. two cities.. anymore and its just a rush and tour of train stations..

I thought I read somewhere that they were discontinuing the night trains ?

That was Deutsche Bahn's Citynightline, but OEBB took over a few of the routes. Thello is still hanging in there, which operates the Paris-Venice route. Still, I would think it could possibly be the low point of an otherwise memorable vacation. If you want to do something totally different for the experience, give it a go. If you value a good nights sleep, give it a pass.

I will do a great deal to avoid having to take a flight in the middle of a trip--including taking day-long bus and train rides. An overnight train ride is a whole different matter. There is nothing remotely fun about getting no sleep. It is utter misery for me and wastes a day of vacation. And you don't even get to see the scenery!

Haha, I didn't know I was such a great sleeper! Give me a train or a boat anytime, lulls me right to sleep!

Fly into Venice, then fly to Paris for the rest of your trip.

I love this community! So generous in sharing ideas. You have given me some clarity and eased some of my anxiety about planning this trip.

One more question: is it presumptuous of me to think we can do our own sightseeing (just highlights of each city for now) and not join a tour?

It's not presumptuous at all, Vern, if you're willing to do some guidebook-reading ahead of time. At individual sights (like museums) I often opt for an audioguide; they often cost a bit extra, but not too much. Rick has a few audio tours you can download for free.

I've found that I really enjoy taking a walking tour that introduces me to one of the historic areas of a new city. Typically I learn a bit of history as well as some interesting facts about local life. Sometimes I even pick up some restaurant tips.

I've take a few special-interest tours when they were available at a moderate price. I find that once inside a museum-like site, I spend substantially more time there than the average tourist, so I think a lot of general sightseeing tours wouldn't suit me.

Buy RS guide books, and maybe one other for the cities you plan to visit.

It's helpful to have maps in Paris - I recommend "Paris par arrondissement, l'Indispensable" - little blue booklet you can buy at any newsstand in Paris for around 7 EU. Also has Metro and Bus maps, and all the streets in the city are listed, so you can't get lost.

Venice is another story, and I haven't found that maps help too much. But the RS guide book is good for Venice and will help you get to the main points of interest.

Hi,

Your first trip is over a ten day period flying from the west coast and back. I do that too, dep from SFO, if it's a direct flight, count on 11 consecutive hours. As pointed out above, for those on their first trip with 10 days or so, I would also suggest London and Paris, since London is the easiest to adjust if need be.

I have a long time friend living in the US who has been wanting to go desperately in the last decade or so, but who only some months ago had never had a passport and never been out of the US, not even crossing into Canada prior to 9/11, wants to go even if for 10-12 days. So, as a first time newbie, although London and Paris hold the obvious interest, fascination, charm, and all that, he is way more desperate to see as top priorities Berlin and Vienna. Bottom line, know what all 5 desire as top priorities.

I believe all of the CNL night routes were taken over by ÕBB since ÕBB provides the sleeper and couchette options that the ICE and IC night routes did not. Night routes were never going out, only the night (sleeper and couchette) service offered by CNL was discontinued. Of course, both ICE and IC do the night route service but if one prefers the couchette and sleeper options, then ÕBB is available. Going by night train from 1900 to 0600 hrs doesn't mean one must take ÕBB, there is ICE and IC...all three offer the general seating if one rejects the sleeper and couchette options.

The EN221 :

Paris Gare de Lyon dep 19:14 Sleeper and couchette train , Global price , Couchettes , Bordrestaurant
+ 1 Day
Venezia Santa Lucia arr 09:35

for me that is the PERFECT night train - we get a sleeper, bring wine & nibbles for departure, dinner on the train, sleep and arrive at the very reasonable hour of 9:35am!

We love the night trains - other hate them.

Either way they are a memorable experience!

Sure beats slugging through an airport any day!

You definitely can do your own sightseeing in Paris, Venice or Rome. Just get a good guidebook (Rick's are great), do your research (which is half the fun of taking a trip) and go for it. Don't forget to write a Trip Report when you get back and ENJOY!!!

Paris and Venice are great! If you spend 5 nights in Paris and 2-3 in Venice (my recommendation) you should have time for a small place in between (like Lake Como - which is also great).

Thank you all for your insights and suggestions. Itinerary is proceeding apace. Now trying to decide whether to utilize a travel agent for arranging flights and hotels or go it alone using Rick's most excellent guide books and the Internet for flights. Also, weighing merits of day train, night train, or EasyJet for going from Venice to Paris. Would love to hear from experienced travelers!

EasyJet often has special fares from Paris to Venice. We paid 28 EU round-trip last year, going from Orly. Luggage restrictions are fierce on low-cost airlines, though.

You should get a recent RS' guide book for tips on Venice transportation - especially getting to and from the airport.
I wouldn't take a night train again to Venice if someone paid me to do it! It's a long trip, a waste of money, you don't see anything, and it's uncomfortable.