First time train travelers to Europe....help??

Good that you're allowing for the travel days, but London, Paris, Rome, and in my view Venice, all deserve more than three days. A rail pass isn't necessarily the best deal, especially if your travel dates are fixed and you don't need the flexibility. Besides researching rail travel on this site, take a look at seat61.com. Also, have you read RS's "Europe Through the Back Door"? Lonely Planet and Rough Guide also produce first timer guides for European travel.

Treating it as a "first time" trip to get a flavor of these different Cities makes sense and is doable. However, be aware that (after dedcuting travel time between these cities) you really dont have much time to do any of them justice. barely scrape the surface. London, Paris and Rome each have Hop-on, hop-off buusses which are a great way to get a quick overview (Munich has a similar tour -not HOHO). With this limited tiime, I would be sure I stayed as close to the tourist center of each place (no wasted commuting time) and had a list of the top (few) sights i absolutely wanted to do thoroughly. Also try and do some sightseeing at night at appropriate venues- Paris has night light tours which are worthwhile

Thanks Brian, some good thoughts there. We actually would have about 25-26 days in total, which would give us about 4 days at home to regroup before we would have to get back to work etc. So Im thinking it would be 3 full days in each destination (6 places @ 3 days each is 18 days) with a day of traveling in between each one allowed for (5 days). that gives us 3 plus days in each city. I like your idea of possibly sight seeing at night to see a bit more....thats a great idea! The next thing is the budget. We just went through that and allowed: $100/day food, $225/day hotel, (that may be low?) $100/day sightseeing etc. plus $1500 rail pass for two. Any thoughts on the budget?? Thanks again!!

That's a generous budget. I sleep for much less than that, but of course, you may be thinking high-end hotels, in which case you would be low.

Thanks Kathy....Im hoping to splurge a bit in venice and maybe in positano. Hopefully budget a bit tighter in the other spots, so that figure was an average? Not looking for high end hotels necessarily though.

Wade, If this is your first trip to Europe, I'd suggest reading Europe Through The Back Door. It provides a lot of information on "how" to travel in Europe, including "Rail Skills". The country or city Guidebooks are great for planning touring, Hotels, restaurants, etc. As you noted, you'll need to allow for a day at either end of your trip for travel. You'll arrive in Europe the day AFTER you depart. For the travel time between cities, it's a good idea to allow at least a half day each. If I read your plans correctly, you'll be changing location five times, so travel times will be about 25-hours total. Some routes will be shorter and some longer. A few thoughts on travel methods (time will vary depending on which option you choose): > London to Paris - EuroStar (about 2 hours, but of course there's travel to & from stations, checking in & out of Hotels, waiting times, etc.) > Paris to Munich - ~6H:10M by train, with one change possibly in Stuttgart > Munich to Venice - ~7H:10M, with one change usually at Verona Porta Nuova > Venice to Rome - ~3H:35M via EuroStar Italia / Alta Velocita - this is an easy and scenic trip > Rome to Positano - ~1H:10M to Naples, then 1H:05M to Sorrento via Circumvesuviana & Bus to Positano (there may be other options to Positano, but this is the only one I know). If you want an incredible "splurge" Hotel in Positano, I can offer a suggestion but it won't be cheap! I can also suggest a less expensive (but nice) alternative. A Railpass may not be the best option. Keep in mind these DO NOT include the reservation fees that are compulsory on some trains; you need to pay separately for those. You'll have to "crunch the numbers". Good luck with your planning!

I would spend a month in France alone, Italy alone, Germany and the Lowlands, etc. rather than try to stretch my trip to cover all of Europe in that time frame. At most I would cover two regions, knowing that I'll have to skip a lot in each. Keeping your time and distance short on travel days helps keep everyone rested and in a good mood. Spacing out your travel days also helps. If you spend four weeks in one region, you can get way beyond the "greatest hits" whirlwind tour and feel like you have really visited a place. It also helps to bone up on only one language before your trip.

Wade, Some suggestions for accommodations in Positano: > Il Sirenuse - VERY expensive but VERY nice! In a recent "World's Best" Poll, it was voted #2 in Europe in the category of "Resorts & Inns" (Palazzo Sasso in Ravello was voted #1). > Hotel Savoia - close to Il Sirenuse, but more "modest" in cost - rooms are very comfortable and staff are great - try to request an ocean view room. Regarding your Itinerary, I'd keep the same six destinations on the list. I might drop one day from Venice and one day from your "recovery time" when you return home, which would allow a somewhat more relaxed time in Europe. Munich is one of my favourite cities in Europe, so I'd keep it on the list if at all possible. I haven't found much difference in travel between spring shoulder season and fall shoulder season. In either case, there are never any guarantees with the weather, so take your pick. The others have provided some good suggestions regarding Railpass vs. tickets. You'll have to do some "number crunching" to determine whether a Pass or P-P tickets would be the best value. You could also make a call to Rick's Rail department in Seattle and have a chat with them. If you should be in the Seattle area during business hours, stop by and speak to them in person. While there you could use the free Guidebook Library to plan the fine details. To get a very "rough" idea of the most cost effective travel method, try entering your Itinerary into This Website to see what it suggests. Cheers!

I've traveled throughout Southern Germany and France with Railpasses twice. The first time was dumb - we didn't get very good value. But the second time was a steal - it really all depends on where you're traveling and how flexible your schedule is. So I'd try looking online for individual tickets for your itinerary and crunching the numbers as others suggested. But the Railpass really can be a good deal - particularly since the 3 country and up passes are automatically first class, which is REALLY nice on those long stretches (and sometimes includes a decent meal or beverage, even!) I disagree with the others about skipping Munich - it's really different from your other destinations and I think it's a ton of fun. (Just don't spend all night drinking in the Hofbrauhaus which is the worst deal in Munich!) But your trip is city-heavy, so if you do decide to skip it, you might want to replace it with a more relaxing German destination. They're huge on mineral baths here, with the Black Forest having many. I know Rick Steves' doesn't care about the Black Forest, but a few days lounging around Baden-Baden with a short excursion into the countryside would be a neat alternative. Or perhaps an Alpine town in Bavaria or Switzerland. I also have to say that for a trip like yours, intended to see quite a bit of Europe in a relatively short timeframe, that 3 days in those cities is FINE. Particularly if you're going during a crowded or hot time of year. Sure, 3 days isn't enough to "see" Paris - but a month wouldn't be either. Meanwhile, as much as I love the city, it's exhausting. The first-class, air-conditioned train ride to your next destination can seem like a pretty nice break after 3 full days of city touring.

I like everything except the rail pass idea.

There's a hop on, hop off bus tour in Munich too. I took them in most cities to see which sights I wanted to come back to.

With careful advance planning, pre-purchase of rail tickets can save money. For more spontaneous travel, the railpass can make sense. On the pass, your per-day cost remains set whether you make reservations a month in advance or not. The only problem I've encountered getting reservations using a railpass is at Easter time. The trains were all filled up for the day I wanted. So, I chose another day that same week.

Check the rail prices carefully. For instance, if you purchase the London-Paris tickets 3 months in advance, you can get a non-refundable fare of (currently) £39 (~$65) each. The bargain tickets usually go on sale 3 months or 90 days ahead and are snapped up pretty quickly. There are many pleasant, clean, conveniently located 2 and 3 star hotels for €80-120. The rooms are often rather small (if you are like me, you won't been awake in them for very long) but, unlike the "better" hotels, usually include free internet and buffet breakfast. What you save on hotels, add to your food budget, which looks a tad low ($100/day for 2). Of course, you can save a lot with picnic-style lunches from supermarkets, while stops at a cafe for soft drinks or coffee are pricey - AND well worth it, both to rest your feet and to people-watch. The easiest way to avoid touristy restaurants (and they should be avoided) is by shunning the ones in the touristy areas and the ones with English menus. As a tour guide/friend in Berlin told me, they cater to the tourist crowd - people who will eat there once, so they can and do get away with poor food.

Now to your itinerary. I completely understand your reasoning for so many destinations, but even 3 full days in London, Paris or Rome is not much. Consider dropping Munich and flying from Paris to Venice. Day trips can add destinations without the time-consuming hassles of changing hotels. From London, you can spend a day in Oxford or Cambridge or even Bath. From Paris, a day at Versailles or Chartres or Fontainebleau. Verona is a lovely day trip from Venice. Also, consider taking an early morning train from Venice, stopping in Florence for the day and then taking an evening train on to Rome. You can check your bags at the train station and historic Florence is just a few minutes' walk from the train station. If you go to Munich, Saltzburg can be a day trip. What time of year are you thinking of? If you go in May/June, it is light in London and Paris till quite late (early June, sunset in Paris is well after 9 pm), while Italy will be getting hotter as you get closer to summer. Even in October, Italy, especially the south, is still hot.

@James: "people are actually complaining because you're going to spend too much?" Excuse me, where's the complaint?

I agree with Ed about a rail pass. Since you are planning this trip well in advance, you should be able to get the best advance purchase prices. Europa-Spezial-Tickets can be advance purchased for Paris to Munich and Munich to Venice for €39 per person for each leg. That's €156 for most of your travel. The rail pass won't cover London to Paris anyway. In Italy, the fastest trains carry a surcharge (reservation) on top of a rail pass. Depending on which train time, Venice to Rome in 2nd class in a Eurostar AV is €53 with a mini fare (and you're saving the €10 "Reserv").

I agree with Chani about skipping Munich this trip. Also, if it were me I would steal time from those 4 recovery days back in BC. Add time to Paris & London especially. You could also lose a day from Venice. If Munich is a priority, drop something else. I notice that all your destinations are cities. Great ones, but that can be wearying on a 4-week trip. Rick Steves advocates the "vacation from your vacation" approach, a few days in the mountains or by the sea recharging.

Wow, thanks to everyone for their input. Thats fantastic!! Ken: fellow Canuck...thanks for all the information between destinations, that just saved me a bunch of time! And yes, if you have a couple of ideas for positno, I would love to hear them, I have looked at one spot, its actually in Ravello, near positano. Chani: again great ideas...our original idea was to maybe allow for spend a day in smaller towns inbetween the big cities, but I dont think time will allow this. We will definitely want to take some day trips while in the big cities. Right now we are planning to go in either Sept/Oct or May/June. Not sure the best one between those, or if there is any difference? Adam: yes I know what you mean about recharging. We typically get home exhausted from our holidays as theres lots of activity jammed in to a short amount of time. I think to do that for a month would be very draining, so maybe your right to remove Germany and allow more time in each place and not feel so rushed? Was hoping to see a bit of Germany though. And also re the rail pass...at this point we have allowed $1500 for travel while in Europe, but I have looked and flying between cities is also an option, although we like the idea of seeing the countryside via train. But I agree with Chani, if we drop Germany altogether it would make sense to fly direct to Venice. I can see what I really need is more time!! haha....oh well.

Geez I hate to monopolize the forum with my topic, but there are so many great tips that just lead to more questions! Ken, those look great, I have been looking at the Caruso in Ravello for a 3 night stay to finish the trip. They all look amazing! Also your idea of one day less in Venice and adding one more day to the trip sounds like it might work. I assume you would add one more day to Paris & Rome? Sarah, thanks for the info on Munich. Im not partial to Munich necessarily, just would like to see a bit of Germany. Maybe even a small town for a day would be nice along our route? And yes our original plan wasnt just big city to big city....but with the timeframe we have to work with, I think its naturally going to work that way. We may end of taking the odd day trip out of the big city to some smaller places. Going to explore that option anyways... One last question ( I hope!) We are torn a bit between maybe London, and say Amsterdam. We like history, and want to see different cultures etc. It seems London is big on history with the museums and buckingham palace etc, but really they are probably the closest in culture/language etc to us in North America. Amsterdam seems to be more European (if that makes sense) and we would love to see the Anne Frank house as well. I know in the end its a matter of opinion, but is Amsterdam worth a look? Maybe save a day there as well and not visit London? Thanks again!

Dear Wade: My 2 cents: Bring food & beverage on the trains just in case you arrive late somewhere and restaurants are closed or there's no place to buy provisions. That happened to us. Have a wonderful trip!

Wade- i have always told myself to allow a few days at home before returning to work- never made it though, adding those days to Europe always wins. I would not delete Munich (or anywhere you list). There are things to do- and you can always take a few day trips. It seems the easiest large German city for tourists.

So what is on the table at this point? I can't tell if Munich is in or out. Our two favorite places of the ones you mention would be Venice and London. Rome would probably be on the list too but I haven't been there in 40 years; we keep trying to make time for it but haven't succeeded yet. We plan to return to Venice for a month, if that is any indication how much we love La Serenissima. Thee truly is "nothing like it in th eworld" as the saying goes. As for London, although we speak the same language, it is definitely European. And there is so much history there that relates to our own North American history. Besides, the British Musueum includes ancient Greece, Egypt and Rome as well, and it is free so you can stop in each day for an hour or so if you like. The art museums are fantastic as well, plus the lovely parks, the great variety of plays, fun little pubs for lunch, Greenwich, Windsor, the best Indian restaurnats (outside of India). . . and lots more. Flying into London makes a good start to a European trip, especially coming from the west coast of N. America like you are. We have direct flights from Seattle and I assume you have them from Vancouver.

Good question Lola....where do we sit at this point? Again, much thanks to everyone who responded, I have recieved some fantastic feedback from everyone. At the end of the day, I think for the most part, the consensus is that the itinerary I have is ok, with maybe a small tweaking here or there. I think Im going to stick with the all the cities I have and as some have suggested maybe sneak a day away from my 4 days alloted when I get back and add it to the trip....after all, this may be a once in a lifetime thing. As long as one takes ones time, and doesnt rush through everything it should be fine. Thanks again to all who have helped me out, its greatly appreciated. Think its time to let my topic die, and let other people who need some advice get to the top of the board. PS...arent these fourms a wonderful thing? Im getting advice from Seattle to Canada, to Tel Aviv, to Germany...crazy when you stop to think about it. Best wishes and happy travels to all who contributed...

Wade - One thing to consider to maximize value for a railpass is to see two different places in one day. For example, when taking my in-laws to Munich last month, we took the train from Stuttgart to Nuremberg, tooled around there for the day, then caught a train in the evening to Munich. Did the same thing coming home, stopping in Salzburg. Of course this can make for a more tiring trip, but if you want to see a lot of places, it's something to consider. Based on train times it definitely seems like either Munich or Salzburg would be a good place to stop for a few days on your way to Venice, and both cities are surrounded by glorious scenery and natural areas and adorable little towns if you want to get away "from the city". Salzburg is lovely and much smaller and on a smaller pace than Munich (although still heavily touristed). Despite its size, Munich is a very "easy" place to visit, in my experience, for American tourists, with a great public transit system. Wherever you end up, I'm sure you'll have a fabulous time!

Wade, I would strongly advise against taking a day from Venice. It's a great place to just wander, and ride the vaparettos, and relax by a canal with a glass of wine. . . much different from any other city you'll see. We all have our personal favorites, but you shouldn't let us unduly influence you. Your original plan (3 nights in each place) is a good one. As for the timing of the trip, I think September/early October are a perfect time to see Europe.

Thanks Charlene....I was waiting for someone to say that!! I have heard so many wonderful things about Venice I was reluctant to steal a day from there. I think the thought perhaps was that its not an overly big city (from what I understand?) and you can see it all in a couple days. But that being said, I have read several threads where people stay a week and more. So....Im thinking that maybe its a place where even if you have an extra day, just spend it relaxing and soaking in the atmosphere :)

Wade, I say go for it! I recently took a 3 week trip to Europe, and hit a BUNCH of different destinations. It was a whirlwind trip, but we had a wonderful time. Our itinerary is as follows: Flew into Amsterdam, one night stay left mid-day, took a train to Bruges Stayed in Bruges for 4 nights (daytripped to Brussels one day, Oostende another day, spent two full days in Bruges) Trained from Bruges to London (took the Eurostar via Brussels) Stayed in London for two nights Took the Eurostar to Paris Stayed 3 nights in Paris Flew to Zurich (free flight from a friend) Two nights in Zurich (REALLY expensive, day tripped to Leichtenstein) Train to Vernazza (BEAUTIFUL) Three nights in Vernazza Train to Rome Three nights in Rome
Flew home! Honestly I really enjoyed the trains, we met some neat people, I always felt safe, some were nicer than others (we had a hole in the floor of one train on our way to Bruges, but the Eurostars were amazing!) and it gives you a great opportunity to relax and nap, or read. According to what you think you'd like in a trip I would definitely recommend Amsterdam and Bruges. Bruges was clean, absolutely medeivel, everyone was friendly, and they had a great beer culture. Amsterdam was also pretty clean, the people were SO nice, and it was a really neat place. We rented bikes in alot of the destinations we hit, and I am so glad we did. Our goal for the trip was to experience a little bit of everything, from the obvious touristy things (museums, etc) to the locals-only experience. We wanted to eat like a local, and sleep in places that were creative and homey, with a friendly and knowledgeable staff. Oh and we wanted to do all of these things on a budget! If you have any questions let me know, good luck planning your amazing trip! Robin

Aw, Wade, I was just getting into your trip :-) I like your idea of dropping London and adding Amsterdam, because, as you said, Amsterdam is much different and London isn't. And I don't think the difference in travel time from BC to either is significant. Since you are starting in the north and ending in the south, I think fall is better than spring. Even in October Italy is hot. Do come back after you've chosen your itinerary and dates to get more recommendations on hotels, sights, day trips. . . You'll know you are asking too many questions when you stop getting answers.

Robin how can I not comment on your posting!! You trip and what you wanted out of it sounds EXACTLY like what we want as well!! Some of the obvious tourist things, but also more culture and meeting locals, seeing more than just the touristy Europe. Now Im full of questions!! Im most interested in your London vs Amsterdam/Brugges leg.....I am really going back and forth on this one, with also the option of a short time in Amsterdam/Brugges with a little London thrown in....similar to what you did. Would you do it the same again or would you change that leg of your trip at all? Also, we are thinking of maybe spending a day in a small town between Paris and Munich, and it seems Switzerland may be the area based on the train route. Did you like switzerland? Did you visit any smaller towns? LIke you were are trying to do all this on a "budget" but after doing some number crunching, it doesnt seem like a bugdet at all haha....

Wade, For a great town to visit in Switzerland, you might consider Lucerne. It's an incredibly beautiful city with LOTS to see and do. The only problem is that you'll need more than one night. Of course the big Switzerland favourite here is the Berner Oberland outside of Interlaken, and specifically the villages of Lauterbrunnen, Mürren and Gimmelwald (one of Rick's "discoveries"). If you're adventurous, you might consider Paragliding from Mürren (it's about a 20-minute tandem flight), and a lot of fun, especially when you reach the edge of cliff and you're now looking 3000 ft. straight down! There are all kinds of possibilities...... BTW, I have relatives in Abbotsford.

Switzerland fits better between Munich and Italy (via Milan) than it does between Paris and Munich. You could go Munich to Luzern, then Luzern to Venice (via Milan) Luzern is a lovely small city on a lake, surrounded by mountains. If you preferred you could stay nearby in a very small village up on the mountain (Rigi), reached from Luzern by boat and cablecar ride. This was the view out our window there (scroll down a bit): http://www.alpina-rigi.ch/html/hotel.html Mark Twain has some great tales about this place (as well as Luzern) in "A Tramp Abroad".