First Time Europe Travelers - Advice Needed

If I were to list top European "must do" cities, I'm not sure Brussels would be on the list. Curious why you choose Frankfurt over Munich or Cologne. I think I'd include Paris. I never thought I'd be very interested in Paris and would travel more in other parts of France. Well, I found Paris quite enjoyable and I've been back twice.

A Global Eurail Pass is likely to be a huge waste of money. Please read this article first from the very reputable Man in Seat 61 - https://www.seat61.com/Railpass-and-Eurail-pass-guide.htm#railpass-or-point-to-point-tickets

If I were a huge WW2 history buff, I'd go to the Normandy beaches. Prague, Austria and Brussels don't really fit, in my opinion. I would suggest half of the time in Italy (be sure to look beyond Rome and Florence and explore more rural Italy) and then fly to Paris or Berlin for the remaining half.

I agree about Normandy for an American WWII buff - and then Paris would be a natural add-on.

Krakow would be my other WWII addition. First of all, there's a terrific WWII museum there - the Museum of Krakow under the Nazi occupation (at the old Oskar Schindler factory). I found this a fascinating look at wartime life in a city occupied by the Nazis. Second, Krakow itself is a charming city. Third, there's Auschwitz nearby.

I wouldn't include Brussels, either.

Wow!!! In my opinion thats way too much in 3 weeks and also very spread out- wasting a lot of time traveling. For 3 weeks I would stick with just Italy and Germany possibly a side trip to Austria... Since you noted your husband and your's interests I would slow it down and spend a an extra night or two in some of the places. If your only spending 2 nights it only gives you one full day of actually seeing and experiencing the culture and sights. Rome alone could use up 3 full days of travel... I would remove Amsterdam and Brussels- those aren't in a good travel pattern for what you want to do. I would add more stops in Italy. . Here would be my suggestion:

Fly into Rome

Rome 3 nights
Florence 3 nights
3 nights in another spot in Italy (Amalfi coast/Como area/Cinque Terre/Venice something like that)
Munich 4 nights (allowing a possible side trip to Berchtesgaden/Saltzburg)
Prague could make sense here since you want to do it by train 3 nights
Berlin 3 nights- fly home from there

I just realized you also said not till 2020... Since its so far off I would do lots more research to see what would really interest you. Don't think you'll never go back so you're trying to cram so much in. Plan it so it makes sense and you can really enjoy what you want to see. Maybe by then you'll realize you could go 4 weeks- then Amsterdam and Brussels could get thrown in... Try to fly into one city and out of another- that helps a lot. In Italy I think you would like staying in an agriturismo. Check some out in the Tuscany region- its easy to train into Florence from a lot of them. Hope this helps. If you have other questions PM me- Ive been to all those places a number of times and have similar interests. Also, it may be cheaper to get a car- check into that before settling on the Eurail.

Thank you all for replying (that was really quick).

I picked the cities I did because my son backpacked across Europe right after he got out of the Army and those were the places he thought I would love. Although my husband loves WWII - I don't want the entire trip to be about that and he really is the type to "just go with it" and doesn't even have a "must-do" list....haha. I was looking at Munich and/or Cologne but didn't know enough about the area to know which would be best - that's why I so appreciate everyone's input.

After posting my question, a colleague who has been to Europe suggested a car rental. I looked and it will actually save over $1500 to rent a car for the entire trip - it gives us more flexibility with our stops, btu I would love input on driving as opposed to public transport.

As for planning this far in advance - that's just ME :-) I won't be confirming anything until next spring, but I am saving now and want to kind of get an itinerary together.

Congratulations on beginning your planning on what may turn out to be an epic journey!

Your first step should be the purchase of a good guidebook or two. I recommend the Rick Steves' guidebooks for basic planning and travel techniques that will maximize your experience while minimizing the expenses.

Start with: https://www.amazon.com/Rick-Steves-Europe-Through-Back/dp/1631216252/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538502399&sr=8-1&keywords=europe+through+the+back+door+2018 and https://www.amazon.com/Rick-Steves-Best-Europe/dp/1631211773/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1538502437&sr=8-2&keywords=europe+through+the+back+door+2018

Then, since you will likely be pretty independent, I love the Lonely Planet guides and recommend that you get a copy of https://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Planet-Europe-Travel-Guide/dp/1786571463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538502515&sr=8-1&keywords=lonely+planet+europe+2018

A good planning map would be useful as well, and this is a good start: https://www.amazon.com/Rick-Steves-Europe-Planning-Map/dp/1598801376/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538502588&sr=8-1&keywords=rick+steves+planning+map

Then, spend some time deciding what sites (and sights) you both might want to visit. I agree that a global train pass would likely be impractical, given the relatively inexpensive cost of using trains and now, planes to travel from place to place.

Spending 2 nights in each location means that you will only be spending 1 actual day in each location. This will be a grueling pace for you to keep up. While some travel more rapidly, I try to spend 3 to 4 nights in each location, which maximizes my sightseeing time and gives me those precious times to just enjoy the place I am visiting.

I am sure you will receive all kinds of advice on these pages, and urge you to supplement your research by using the search bar at the top of each page. Just type in something like "D-Day" or "Opera" or "pizza" and you will be rewarded with many entries from prior inquiries. Check back often as your trip begins to take shape. This is a grand adventure.

In addition to Emily's excellent suggestions Inwouldmsuggest adding London for a WW2 history buff. The Churchill War Rooms are amazing, and you can tour the HMS Belfast, a battleship am horned in the Thames, on a combined ticket.

Skip Austria, Prague, and Frankfurt.

99% of the time it has been cheaper to rent a car. We have done the train before but thats because we were in Poland, and Prague in the middle of winter and didn't want to drive in the snow. We book our car rentals in Europe through Gemut.

Your city wish list:
Rome, then Florence, Austria, Prague, Berlin, Frankfurt, Brussels and ending in Amsterdam

I have been to 3/4 of the countries in Europe and lived in Germany for four years.

For Italy, I would recommend:
Rome, Florence and Venice

The rest of your trip, I would skip Frankfurt and Brussels and add Munich (it is closer to Prague anyway). Berlin is great and you could do it after Prague, but I think your time of 3 weeks has run.

If you want to do the German Rhine with Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg, I recommend:

Heidelberg, Rüdesheim and Cologne along the Rhine and Trier if you go to Luxembourg (Patton is buried there). Amsterdam is great, stop at Arnheim (Bridge to Far city in WWII) on your way. Visit some of the Zyder zee while in Amsterdam. In Belgium, don't miss Brugges. Brussels is worth one day. Paris is great. Consider doing the German Rhine, Netherlands, Belgium, Lux with Paris on a second trip.

If you rent a car in one country, you are likely to have a huge drop charge in the other. Take the train while in Italy as well as getting to Munich. Take a tour down the Romantic Road that includes the Medieval city of Rothenburg on the Tauber.

castanonfive, you would really benefit from a good guidebook, that would help you identify the more specific questions that you will want to ask. For example, did you count the higher fuel prices, parking and the huge one-way drop off fee, when looking at transportation costs? Also, you are assuming that a Eurail pass is the only way to plan rail travel. Its not, but you won't be able to tell until you have a firmer idea of where you are going. Flying between major cities in Europe can be an inexpensive option as well.

" Rick Steves' Europe Through the Back Door" is a good overview of independent travel, and then the more detailed country guides when you narrow down your itinerary. You can get a lot of good advice here on this forum, but it helps to have a reference point to start from.

Your first day in Europe and your last day will be essentially wasted. And every time you go from city to city, you will lose a day. So you really need to prioritize your cities as 3 weeks comes up fast when you're trying to see so many places.

Another issue is the rental car. You need to rent and return the car in the same country to avoid huge fees paying to have the car transported "home". You might want to take a train on many segments and rent a car to see the countryside or special interests once you get there.
I would break the trip up into three segments. Most great European cities are worthy of a minimum of 4 days/nights.
For Italy, I would suggest starting in Rome and staying there 4 days. Then Florence for 3 days. Venice is hard to pass up for 2 days.
If your husband is looking for WWII sights, some areas are better than others. I'm not saying that 1940's history is not addressed, but in some areas it's been minimized. I would suggest your heading north to Munich by train where the Dachau "work camp" is a popular stop. Another great concentration camp is over at Matthausen, east of Linz, Austria which is relatively close to Salzburg. You could go north from Linz through Cesky Krumlov to Prague. Berlin is about 200 miles north of Prague--with Dresden halfway.
Another good way to travel longer distances is budget European airlines. I'll stop at that.

This website has all of RS tv shows categorized by country. Otherwise, they are typically available at libraries or at last resort rent on Amazon or purchase from RS. I would watch all the shows for Italy, Austria, Germany, czech Republic,France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Its a long list, but you have plenty of time. I think that will give you a better idea of places you'd like to visit.

People consider me pretty brave, but I wouldn't rent a car and drive in big cities on a first trip to Europe. We rented a car on our first trip, but we took a train to a relatively small town (Colmar, France) and used the car and returned it at a train station on the edge of a smaller city (Tours, France)

After posting my question, a colleague who has been to Europe suggested a car rental. I looked and it will actually save over $1500 to rent a car for the entire trip - it gives us more flexibility with our stops, btu I would love input on driving as opposed to public transport.

I don't understand - you are saving $1500 as compared to what? A Global Pass? That is a very unrealistic comparison as rail passes are about 4-5 times as expensive as buying normal tickets in most cases.

I also don't think you really appreciate the size of Europe. Renting a car and travelling from Rome to Brussels is a very American way of thinking about travel in Europe. It doesn't sound like your friend who has been to Europe really has a depth of knowledge in this area. Drop off fees will be very high and you will spend an enormous amount of time in the car. Totally unnecessary in Europe.

You have way too much on your wish list to fit into an enjoyable 3-week trip. You will not see more by hopping between major cities every two days; you will see a lot less except for scenery (much of it not particularly pretty) whizzing by as you move from place to place. It's natural to want to go to every place you've heard of that sounds intriguing, but you really, really need to resist that impulse. Dig into guidebooks. You will find that Germany and Italy each have dozens of fascinating cities and towns that will give you great variety during a 3-week trip. You do not need to (and--sorry-should not) bounce all over the continent, not allowing yourself time to be anywhere long enough to create pleasant memories. If you spend just two nights in places like Rome, Florence, Prague, Berlin, Vienna and Amsterdam you'll be frustrated.

I do not know how you made your cost comparison for car vs. train, but you need to hold off on that decision until you have a much more realistic itinerary. Trust me, as you continue your research, you will find the territory covered by your trip shrinking, which will sharply reduce the cost of train tickets but not budge the cost of a car rental (except for the obvious impact on fuel expense).

And do not compare the cost of car rental to the cost of rail passes. This is your first trip, so I assume you will have a firm itinerary and locked-down lodging reservations ahead of time. In that case, there's no reason not to take advantage of advance-purchased (non-refundable/non-changeable) train tickets. Those will make your travel from city to city quite reasonable. Do not go to RailEurope to price those rail tickets. It often does not offer some of the less expensive options, and it sometimes (always?) charges a substantial fee. Use trainline.eu or loco2.com to check rail fares. Try looking about 90 days out to see what you'll pay for promo tickets.

If you end up with a long hop (such as from Germany or Italy to London), you should be able to snag a reasonably priced flight.

Use ViaMichelin.com for somewhat optimistic estimates of driving times. In addition to information on possible routings, it also estimates your cost for fuel and road tolls/fees. I think you'll find that driving will not be as inexpensive as your initial research indicated.

As already noted, you'll face a painfully high drop charge if you pick up a car in Country A and drop it in Country B.

Thats interesting about the drop fees. I think its something you just have to research. I do recall pricing different options out and at times there were big drop fees, at other times none occurred. We just got back last week from picking up and dropping off at two different locations and incurred no drop fees. When we fly into a city- Rome for example, I would not rent a car when you first get there. I would wait till your final day and pick one up on your way out of town. The same with ending your trip. Its possible if in a major city you again wouldn't need a car so return it when you first arrive. Gas is definitely a big expense. We found parking to be nothing like it is here.

It is a LOT of ground to cover! I might recommend
Week 1 (which is 6 nights?) Rome - Florence - Venice (but I confess after 2 trips to Florence I realized it's not my favorite Italian City)
Week 2 Fly from Venice to Prague then trains (skipping Austria) - Berlin - Cologne
train to Bruges
Week 3 Bruges (over Brussels IMO) - Amsterdam hitting locales along the way (train or drive)

Skip Brussels - way cooler places in Belgium for war related stuff... head to the coast

Aly ( and others),

The car rental drop fees are incurred when you pick up in one country and drop off in another. If you rent and return within the same country, say Italy, there are usually no drop fees. We have rented three times in Italy that way, like pick up in Bolzano and return at .venice, with no drop fees.

But when we picked up in Norway (Bergen) and returned to Copenhagen, it was an extra $500.

The drop fee is not always apparent when you are researching rentals. Even with a dummy booking, it may not appear until the final step, as an added expense, not as part of the original price quote.

I would definitely replace Brussels with London-so much to see in London. I don't feel I would have missed anything if I'd never been to Brussels.

Since you have lots of time before 2020, are you within driving range of any of the monthly Travel Group meetings ? Sometimes you can learn a lot just listening to where and how other people travelled / plan to go.
Your son's suggestions all sound excellent -- but am I right that his trip was substantially longer than 3 weeks ?

Since your husband has an interest in WWII, have him check a site called thirdreichruins.com. It shows many photos of places as they looked just after the war, and photos of the same places today.

Driving vs. trains/buses/air:

Pluses for driving:
1) Driving is fun. It gives you flexibility. You can go anywhere you want.

Negatives for driving:
1) You can go anywhere you want. However, you usually want to go to cities. In Europe, cities are seldom "car-friendly". Mostly the car is a huge annoyance in the city.
2) There are different rules in Europe about driving. Do you drink alcohol? What is the limit that you can drink? It's different in different countries. How many km over the limit can you get away with? In the US, it is often 10 MPH, but is that the case in Europe. In many countries, there are speed cameras, and you get a note in the mail 3 months after you return indicating that you have a 50 E fine plus a 15 E handling fee from the car rental.
3) Roads are labeled differently. Signs don't always give the road number. It's hard to determine where you are on a map. If you have a cell-phone map client which can direct you, that's less of an issue.
4) When you drive, you are not sightseeing - you are driving. When you are on the train, you can do other things - make plans for the night, look out the window, drink a beer.
5) When you arrive on the train, you are often in the very heart of the city, and within easy walking distance of your hotel/hostel. If drive, you must navigate the transition from highway to city street. This sounds easy, since you are from the US. But in Europe, cities are old and pre-car, and the inner cities are not easy to deal with.

We've been to Europe numerous times (at least 15 since 1983). We've driven many times, and taken public transport. We are now 66 and 69, and are more and more inclined to the public transport side.

But you'll find that driving is easy and fun in most countries. Just do not try to drive into the historic parts of towns. These are twisty, narrow, and with dubious signage. In addition, in many cities, you must gain access to areas by talking to someone who can raise or lower a pylon. I'm not sure about language in those cases.

One other point: The "break-even" on car rental is usually 3 persons. If you have 3 or more, and if one is a small person, a car is often a good choice. If you are 2, public transport is usually better.

Depending on the breadth of your trip in Germany, you'll be able to see numerous war sites...military sights....depends on your determination to track them down...Potsdam, Berlin, Seelow, Munich, the Reichswald, Remagen, etc.

Part 2...If you decide to go into Austria tracking down war sites, I would suggest Linz, ie the Nibelungen Bridge, which leads into the Zentrum and has a memorial plaque along the side on an event right after the war. This plaque has to do with the expellees (Heimatsvertriebenen) from the Sudetenland and Moravia, who made it to safe refuge in Linz.

In tracking down WW2 related dealing with US troops, go to Pilsen, if there isn't enough time for Prague.

Operationally, in the last days of the war, US troops were ordered not to go beyond the Pilsen-Linz line. The American Memorial thanking troops of Patton's army for the liberation of Pilsen is close to Plzen's Zentrum.

Wow, how fun! I am going to repeat what other have said. START with a good guide book for each place! You don't know what you don't know. This will also establish your WHY and WHAT. Our second trip was Rome, Florence, Cinque Terre and Paris, 20 days is plenty of time right? WRONG! Once I started reading about all there was to see, day's that monuments were closed, simple day trips we could take from each place, time to allow for travel, coordinating that travel with our check in time for the next place, my itinerary really started to get cramped and I had to make a "top 10" for each place, then work that down to "top 5".

So start reading your travel guides, online trip reports, blogs, forums and your brain will just explode from all the possibilities. A great resource is the website "man in seat 61" for instructions and how to get from point A to pint B so you understand all the options.

I don't know if I'm super visual or what, but the best (and most fun) way for me to research travel locations is to watch video. Youtube has some good stuff, but the RS tv show is excellent to get the flavor of all your possibilities. If you can watch video on your device (they are regular half hour tv shows) this website has all the videos for free. Otherwise check your library or rent or buy them on Amazon.

You will have essentially 18 days in Europe and you mentioned a car. My advice is NOT to rent a car if this is your first trip to Europe. Stick with your original plan and use trains. I am not anti-Global Pass if you are making a lot of trips. I know others disagree, but you are a first time European traveler and train travel is much easier than renting a car if you are traveling all over Europe. I think you should just look at the itineraries of Rick Steve's and other tour company's tours and build your own Best of Europe. Each tour gives you sights to see and the number of days to be in each city. Don't reinvent the wheel your first time. You have plenty of time to plan. Everyone on this board has their favorites so your head will spin listening to all of us. I am not sure of your definition of touristy either. Would seeing the Colosseum in Rome for the first time be "touristy"? If so, your planning will be a little more difficult.

I would never recommend that an independent traveler attempt to replicate a tour's itinerary and timing. The independent traveler has to find his own way from city to city, line up for tickets to any sights not pre-purchased, select his own restaurants, etc. Tours are rushed enough when you have professionals getting you from place to place. I can't imagine attempting that type of schedule on my own.

Acraven, good points. My main purpose was to give them a place to begin thinking about different European cities and sights to choose, not replicate a tour day to day. Your right that would be tough for anyone replicate because of the tight pre-planned schedules. The nice thing is castanonfive has 18 months to plan.

Might I suggest the following for your husband:

Once you have determined which cities to visit go to www.dark-tourism.com and see what is listed for each city. Some of these will be related to WWII.