First Family Trip to Europe - 13 nights

I think you have too many cities for a 13 night trip. Two night stays mean one day in a city, really, and that is really limiting and tiring. I'd think about cutting out one destination, based on your own personal likes. For me, I'd axe Florence. Your wife is set on London, Paris is amazing and a great spot for kids, Venice is magic. You could do London 3, Paris 4, Venice 3 and Rome 3.

And, yes, buy your train tickets in advance. For a trip this short, you're correct in your thoughts about flying from Paris to Venice.

Agree with Valerie. Those cities have too many important sights for such quick visits; it would be exhausting. I'd go farther than she did and cut your destinations to three. Considering how zombified you're likely to be after the red-eye flights, you really only have 12 truly usable days, and you're going to lose a significant chunk of each day on which you change cities.

You'll save a substantial amount of money by buying your rail tickets early. Depending on what you mean by "this summer", your Eurostar tickets may already be available. They're selling through July 1, and for that date some trains have $70 tickets available, but for nearly half, the cheapest tickets are already gone and the best you can do is $87, $104, $123, or $149. By comparison, for the next three days I'm seeing fares of $227 or $280. Yes, that's one way.

Forget "nights" - you're not going there to sleep. Your proposed trip gives you 12 full days in Europe (you can't count your arrival or departure days, they are not usable). Remember, every time you move to a new base, you lose most of that day, even if you're efficient (and for your first trip together, with two kids in tow, you won't be that efficient). I'd suggest 3 locations, not 5. London & Paris pair well together. The three Italian cities mentioned go well together. But trying to do all of them in 12 days would be a mistake IMHO. Consider either doing Venice/Florence/Rome, or London+Paris plus...maybe Amsterdam? I don't think you have enough time to do London, Paris plus more than one additional stop (could be Italy, but I'd save that for next time and do more of Italy on that trip). With 12 days, you could do London, a day trip or two from there, plus Paris, and a short side trip or two from there (maybe Normandy, Loire Valley)...but not all of those.

Less is More. Try this: make a list of all the must-see places in London, and figure 2 hours or more for each one. How many days do you need to see them, with transportation and meals interspersed. Most of us enjoy spending longer in each place and using the time to sightsee and experience a really different place.

I agree with dropping Italy. Amsterdam would be a great addition because it is so completely different. Rent bikes and ride around the city like locals. Take a day trip to The Hague to see Madurodam. You could fly from London City to Amsterdam, then train to Paris.

My first thought is too many places, not enough time. It will all be a blur.

Typically, 2 nights = 1 day in a place. With 13 nights you should have 12 days of time on the ground counting arrival day but not departure day.

Your arrival day will not be all that useful due to jet lag, so I'd subtract it. That leaves 11. Going to 5 places requires 4 travel days, even if the distance is short. So that leaves a total of 7 truly useful days.

All of you will probably take about 3-4 hours to get up, get dressed, get packed, have breakfast, check out, get to the train station or airport and wait to board. After arrival, you'll probably take 2 hours or more getting to your lodgings, checking in, getting settled and getting something to eat, even if it's only a snack, before you can do anything else. None of that included the actual time in the air or on the rails. And keep in mind that the group will travel at the pace of the slowest member.

However, if you only go to 2 or 3 places, it cuts the travel day losses. It also makes renting apartments more attractive, which would probably be better for the whole family. Check booking.com for options, but family rooms or quads aren't that common.

It sounds like London and Rome are givens to meet your wife's wishes and part of yours. The other logical stop is Paris. I'd skip Venice and Florence this trip. If you choose London, Paris and Rome, I'd make it 5 nights in London and 4 each in Paris and Rome. And Eurostar between London and Paris, then fly from Paris to Rome.

If you choose London and one other city, I'd split the time between each however you want, and perhaps take a couple of day trips out of each. Obviously, if #2 is Paris you'd Eurostar and fly home from there. If #2 is Rome, flying from London would probably be the most efficient.

Once you and you wife decide which cities, then I'd get the kids involved in the planning for what to see and do, so that they are as invested in the trip as y'all are. Our son took his daughters, ages 10 and 12 at the time, to Paris. The 10-year-old avidly participated in the planning. The 12-year-old was like whatever. Guess which one had the best experience?

The Man in Seat 61 is THE source for all things train. There are lots of lodging resources, but I use Booking.com to identify potential places, then contact them directly. When you put in your family details, your results will predominantly be apartments, but you can refine your results in many ways, so it will take a little practice to learn how to use it.

Finally, everything will go much more smoothly if you all pack light using carry-on only. If each person, including the kids, can't manage their own luggage, they're taking too much stuff. People in Europe have to do laundry or have it done for them, too, so you don't need to pack more than a week's worth of clothes. Most apartments will have at least a washer and a drying rack. That's a huge convenience, especially with kids.

Have fun planning and have a great trip.

Yes, buy your flights and trains ahead (and I think you have the best arrangement for when to fly vs train). Long distance trains usually offer deep discount fares months out and then prices rise. Last minute can be ridiculously expensive. This is completely true for Eurostar. Go on its website and price for tomorrow then price for 3 months out. It will be quite different!

ESPECIALLY with kids I think you are doing too much. I travel with kids of similar age and I have a 3 night minimum, with 4-5 being ideal. Moving hotels is a hassle and takes most of a day. Then getting th kids settled, getting oriented, etc. it just takes time. I'd skip one or two cities. Which one is really a matter of preference. For me with kids it would be Florence, for me as an adult it would be Venice. But - matter of opinion.
London/Paris/Rome is classic for a reason!

Edit - I am big on giving all members of the family a say in where to go. Maybe you pick one top place, your wife picks one (sounds like hers is London?), then give the kids a few other choices and see where their interest lies.

Just a note on traveling with kids - hotels are different over there. Rooms for 4 are hard to come by and more expensive. Often the hotels suggest you book 2 rooms, which I'm not comfortable with. You would be well served to look for "aparthotels", or look for apartments through booking.com, vrbo, Airbnb etc. I find that I can often get a 2 bedroom apartment in a good location for less than a quad room at a midrange hotel. Then you have more space, your own bedroom (kids have theirs), a kitchen for snacks.

Count nights, not days, when calculating sightseeing time. A night is always a night, a day can be 14 hours or it can be two or three hours on a heavy travel day. Delays and changes will occur during the day.

Definitely get your kids involved, perhaps after you've chosen your cities.

If you can travel efficiently, your original itinerary will give you a taste of your 2-night destinations. I would give the kids maps so they can keep the geography straight. Just remember that four people travel as fast as the slowest of the group, so if one of your group is a cranky sleepyhead, you'll have to work around that.

I would travel London-Venezia-Firenze-Roma-Paris; fly London-Venezia and Roma-Paris, trains Venezia Santa Lucia-Firenze Santa Maria Novella-Roma Termini. It's a short amount of time, so buy your super-economy train tickets as soon as you can to maximize savings, since you don't have much wiggle room for changing plans. Note that you must make the specific date and time for your trains. Booking ahead also gives you a chance to get seats together.

Train travel times are roughly two hours for each trip, plus check-out and check-in for accommodations, so you will lose about 4 hours of sightseeing time on those days. Plane days may be a bit longer for traveling.

This would make a great, if fast-paced, 3-week itinerary.

I think I would do that with 2 adults, but perhaps with 2 kids in tow it might be a little hectic. Our children were 8 and 13 the first time we took them to Europe. We had 4 weeks so we were able to have some stops that were more rural and it made the whole trip less hectic. I am wondering if you might feel more rested if maybe half way through you planned a 2 night- 1 day stop that could be just for relaxing. Just outside of Sienna, we stopped at an agriturismo in the hills and spent a very recharging night and morning just floating around in their pool, eating and gazing at the views.

Also, as mentioned earlier, getting each member of the family to pick a destination is a great idea. Fourth trip this past summer and we still do that. The kids feel more ownership of the trip that way. We get them to plan and take us on an excursion in the place they pick!

Just a thought- I'm sure you will have an amazing time regardless of what you decide!

Thanks everyone for the quick and thoughtful replies. Your insights are very helpful. Obviously the overwhelming feedback is to reduce the number or cities we try to visit. I think we've decided to just focus on London, Paris, and Rome on this trip. Fly into London, take the Eurostar to Paris and then fly to Rome.

London - 4N
Paris - 5N
Rome - 4N

This will give us 3 full days in London, 4 full days in Paris, and 3 full days in Rome without counting any travel days. I definitely will take the advice of getting the kids involved in planning and have them choose some places to visit and things to do. Thanks for all of the input thus far!

There are a number of guides for traveling with children, with titles along the lines of "London with Kids," etc. You can look on Amazon for what is available. My daughter found a cooking class and tour in Rome for our then 7 yr, old grandson, which was a great success. London, in particular has terrific sights for children. If either of yours is a girl, the doll house at Windsor Castle is fabulous. There is also a toy museum somewhere in London. I can't remember exact location, but I'm sure it can be easily found. My friend's grandchildren liked The Tower of London best of everything in that city.

Your new itinerary is much better. But I'd probably put the 5 night stay in London - not because it's "better" or because there's "more to see" compared to Paris or Rome, but because of something mentioned above. Your first day in London is likely to be a jet lagged haze - for at least one, if not more, of your family. So, you can do light things like walking around, taking a bus tour (stay on for one full circuit, even if it's hop-on-hop-off), etc. But don't plan on any museums, classes, theatre, etc for that first day. Since you should consider the first day in London a potentially "lost" one, allow an extra night for it.

Yes, since you will know your travel days in advance, you should book your train from London to Paris and your flight from Paris to Rome as soon as possible. Prices only go up on these closer to travel, and in your case, the increase will be multiplied by four! Buy the train tickets at http://www.eurostar.com/us-en, and look for all flight options at https://www.skyscanner.com/ (you'll book on the actual airline's website). Beware of flights from Beauvais airport, which is much further from central Paris than Orly or Charles de Gaulle airports are. Note that if you're flying a budget carrier like Easyjet, you should do a dummy booking (up to the point where you put in your credit card) to learn ALL the rules and fees. A "legacy" carrier like Air France or Alitalia can actually be cheaper, as it will have fewer fees and a more generous baggage allowance included.

I really like your revised plan . There is tons for kids to enjoy in Paris for kids , most kids , even young ones recognize Pariss main tourist sites and are excited to see them , they may have seen the Hinchbaxknof Notee Dame or Ratatouille Disney movies etc .
Kids usually have heard of gladiators and the Coliseum in Rome , and they all love pasta !
Definately get them involved , when I took my then oldest child ( have three and they all fit one on one trips with me or their dad ) he was 13 , a skateboarding hoodlum , lol , but I made him list three sites he wanted to visit in Paris and London . Of course he named the obvious like the Eiffel Tower , however he also found out about the Catacombs in Paris . I didn't want to visit them ( I am a bit claustrophobic ) but deal was they had to see stuff that interested me without whining and I had to see stuff they wanted without whining lol Its trip research equity , they are not just being dragged along so we're less whiny .

Surprise surprise , my tough boy WANTED to go back to the Louvre for a second visit , INSTEAD of a second day visit to Paris Disney ( when we went they had two day tickets at gate that we'd like 3 euros more than a one day ticket so we got them ) . Our visit was longer than yours , I would skip Disney for such a short stay .

In Rome my kids found the Vatican too hot , too crowded , and boring , HOWEVER my 11 yr old dd loved seeing St. Peter's , especially after visiting Notre Dame , she thought that big , bit St. Peter's blew her away .

My daughter loved the clothes section at the Victoria and Albert museum in London . They have some interactive stuff for kids there too, helps explain the exhibits , the Royal Brtisrh miriam wa da bit dryer for them , however they loved seeing the mummy's .

Definately get Eurostar tickets as far in advance as they are released ( think it's 120 days check Eurostar site ) and defiantly bring a picnic onboard , most folks do and you can bring drinks onboard too!

London, Paris and Amsterdam, save Italy for your next trip. That will give you two train travel days that are very manageable.

I am glad you reduced the number of cities. On our first trip, I made my 7 year old daughter learn some of the language and order a meal in that language. We learned a word or two a week and had to use that word until the trip. We had her read books about the locations she was visiting. She also participated in selecting places to see. We have found out that we need to have a "down day" or rest day in the middle of a two week trip. We use it to wash clothes and rest. We sneak in little things for her, we took her on a surprise trip to the beach and a pool.

I would leave Paris with five days and use a day to rest.

As a tip my daughter loved Palaces, you can take a day trip to Versailles or the Loire Valley to see several in one day on a tour. That would be something different than the cities and museums.

Since London is much, much larger than Paris is, I'd recommend spending 5 days there, and 4 in Paris. If you take the earliest Eurostar, you can drop your luggage at your hotel and go out wandering around.
The major complaint with apartments in Paris is that you cannot drop your luggage until your room is ready. This means that you'll have to haul all your belongings around, possibly in bad weather.
The vast majority of vacation rentals in Paris are illegal, and you face the fact that the owner/manager would prefer to rent for a week or more, rather than just a few days, and you risk a last-minute cancellation.
There are many family rooms which sleep 4 in Paris:

Sorry, cut myself off.
Recommend the Notre Dame / Latin Quarter area, convenient for walking around and transport, lots of things to do.
www.travelforkids.com/Family-hotels/France/paris-family-hotels1.htm

Or, you could check Ibis, Mercure or Accor hotels, which are family-friendly and affordable. Many offer specials, such as free breakfast for kids under 12.

I am going to be contrary, and suggest that usually with shorter attention spans, kids aged 8 and 14 may prefer shorter stays of 3-4 nights rather than 4-5 nights. They will be looking to see the big famous sights and not linger at mummy after mummy in the British Museum.
Venice is a magical place for kids and adults alike, it would be a shame to not include it. Instead of overnighting in Florence, spend a quick 6-7 hours visiting while en route from Venice to Rome. Baggage storage at the station is very easy and very secure.

Jun 18 - Arrive London - 3 nights
Jun 21 - Eurostar to Paris - 4 nights
Jun 25 - Fly to Venice - 3 nights
Jun 28 (am) - Early train (2hr 05min) to Florence. Store bags and spend the day seeing the main sights.
Jun 28 (pm) - Evening train (1hr 35min) to Rome - 3 nights
Jul 01 - Depart Rome