First Europe trip itinerary...Need Help!!

Nice destinations overall - for a longer trip. It seems like a very, very full itinerary.

I think any plan with the Swiss Alps is better than one without.

You don't have enough time dedicated to Rome or Paris. I'd say 4 days each minimum - not including your day of arrival. Venice - stay 2 nights. Florence requires at least 2 nights.

I'd also say you should re-evaluate Italy. Decide what's really important to you there and cut it down.

If you include the Bernese Oberland, you could probably could skip the Dolomites and the Reutte area and add a day to the Rhine region - the real knights' castles are there.

Suggest you leave half of Italy, Austria, and Southern Bavaria for a return trip - that would be a fairly tight travel circle.

Thanks for the advice Russ, that helps!

So maybe a good alternative would be to skip Florence/the Dolomites/Bavaria/Rothenburg
and try to find a flight from Venice to Frankfurt-where we could take the train to spend time around Rhine Valley.

That would definitely shave off a couple days.

If you have not finalized your itinerary for August, does this mean you don't have some of your hotels booked?

That's correct. We will have firm accommodations at the first 2-3 places and then I was thinking we would make reservations as we went. I have read that it is easier to not make reservations in certain places (for example, hill towns in Tuscany) than it is to make a reservation and spend an eternity trying to find the place.

???

Hmmmm. Just one example: Venice is a bad place to show up in August with no hotel booking. That's just one example: about half of Europe takes their long vacations in August, August is the most crowded month.

Kent makes a great point about half of Europe being on vacation in August. As to your itinerary, it's way too ambitious. There's way too much commuting and not nearly enough sight-seeing time. Remember that finding your hotel, unpacking and packing, checking out of your hotel, getting to the train station/airport, being on the train, etc., all take time. Plus, many of the staff in European restaurants welcome you with open arms when they see you come back. It's a great feeling to be treated like a friend when you go back to a restaurant that you really enjoy. This schedule won't allow for that.

As to what should be cut out, that depends upon your desires. Which cities and sights are on your "must-see" list? Which are on your "I'm interested in it" list? I would suggest that you look at your guidebooks again and look for day-trips that can be done out of larger cities, such as Paris. Day-trips let you see more sights, while cutting down on the number of times you move. Settle down for a few days in a spot and soak up the ambiance. That will be a much more memorable trip than one where all that you've seen are train stations.

Another general idea is to reorder your destinations to minimize travel time.

Once you've narrowed things down a bit, I'd see if you can improve your logistical efficiency by starting in NW Europe (e.g., Paris), and ending in Rome.

If you have already bought tickets, it might be worth the fee to change them. Why? It buys you more time for your ambitious itinerary.

As for your priorities, ask yourself this. Paris and Rome are world-class destinations, yet you would spend just two days in each. So, are they really worth the effort, expense, and time it takes to get to and from them?

There is a kind of law of diminishing returns in travel, so you may find that day 3 in Paris is less rewarding than day 1 in some new place that you can include because you are moving so fast. Only you can decide that. But I have to say: it probably isn't, for most people.

You can see a lot in 23 days, have a wonderful trip!

Lauren, the others have given terrific advice. I'd add that multiple rapid changes between cultures will feel overwhelming. By the time you return home I'm concerned that you won't have clear memories or impressions of any place you've visited. Luxembourg, a longer stay in Paris with some day trips outside the city, and other areas of France would work well. Or maybe you could combine Luxembourg, and a longer stay in Paris, plus one other country. Try to avoid the "If It's Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium" phenomenon. Good luck, and write back if you have more questions.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I knew the plan was packed...I just didn't know it was so overpacked :) I totally agree, I do not want to remember this trip as mainly consisting of train stations!

Do you all thinking that 6 places/ 4 countries is more doable? ( I have already been hacking this list down.) With 23 days, that would mean I would be spending more like 3 nights in each place.

Please let me know your thoughts on this update:

Paris-3 nights

Bern/Alps-3 nights

Cinque Terre-2-3 nights

Siena/Tuscany-3-4 nights

Rome-3 nights

Possibly Venice-2 nights

**We would take a cheap flight either from Rome or Venice (depending on if we went to Venice) to Frankfurt where we would take the train to Rhine Valley region.

Rhine Valley-3 nights

Can this be done without running ourselves into the ground?

Your recent plan is an improvement. I don't like Paris much so for me 3 days would be fine - or maybe an eternity - but if you really want to see the place fully add a day. Rome - hard to imagine without 3 full days of sightseeing - spend four nights or leave from there for Germany at night. We spent 2 nights in Siena - very nice, but that felt like enough time. It's fairly small, navigable on foot.

Cheap flights often take you to Frankfurt Hahn airport, not FRA; you'll take a bus from there to Mainz or Koblenz and proceed by train from there to your final Rhine destination. This is a bit time consiming and involved. You might also consider an overnight train. Leave Venice 17:51, change in Milan, take the 21:12 City Night Line train direct to Mainz, arrive just before 7 am.

Good advice Russ.
Thanks for the info about the night train, I hadn't thought of that as an option.

I found a flight for 20 euros from Venice or Rome to Frankfurt (area). Even though it sounds like an inconvenience to navigate to the Rhine from the (farther away) Frankfurt airport, it seems hard to beat for that price. But maybe I will regret the ease of navigating with the train?

Lauren: I'm glad we're helping. But apparently you still haven't changed anything on your not booking in advance problem. Your situation is very different from the traveler who wants spontaneity, you know where you're going to be most nights.Be advised that August is the worst month of all for showing up at some of these destinations with no place to sleep. People who do this in August often pay top dollar, don't have control over where they stay (called being desperate), and spend precious hours of their day looking for a place to sleep when this time could have been used to do/see what you went there to see. The best deals are usually snapped up by those who do book ahead. For every story you read hear about the lucky ones you "got a great deal just showing up" (in August?), what you won't read here are the stories from people didn't get the quality or price they wanted, or spent precious daylight hours looking for a place to sleep, and sometimes even having to go to the next town. It's August!

Thanks Kent, I appreciate your concern.
I have spent the last 5 hours in the process of booking places...I am frantically trying to get all these lined up :)

Hopefully I will be able to find what I need to the according locations!

Oh good. It's a pain now, but later on you'll be glad you did. Actually, you can look at what you're doing now as fun or at least productive because at least right now YOU have control over quality, price and location--if you didn't do this, circumstances would take control of those important parts of your experience.

I've flown in and out of Hahn several times. It's pretty easy and quick. Bus schedules from Hahn are here:

www.hahn-airport.de/default.aspx?menu=by_bus&cc=en

If the flight's a bargain, that's certainly an important consdiration.

If you need to stay over at Hahn airport, this is a very good option - the place is comfortable and clean, we got shuttle to and from the airport, and the breakfast buffet is excellent:

www.advance-hotel-zum-hahn.de/en/index.php

wow! thank you for all that!

There are Ryanair flights from Trevisio (not too far from Venice) to Frankfurt-Hahn, which is the airport being located much closer to the Rhine and Mosel-river valleys than Frankfurt International. It's a short(er) bus ride from there down to Koblenz. Check hahn-airport.de for information on buses from the airport to the river valleys.

I think you are trying to do way too much. Most of the places you are going require at least a week to see them. When traveling from one place to another (which you are doing about 10 times) will use up the entire day. Most of your vacation will be spent checking in and out of hotels and going to and from airports and train stations.

Thanks Andreas, I will check into that!

Hi Lauren,
Just my opinion and, of course, only about the places I've actually been to.

1. Paris - wouldn't bother with less than three days. There is just too much to see and it's so romantic that rushing will totally defeat the purpose. It's amazing. See it and enjoy it!

2. Rome - just spent four days here last month. LOVED it so much more than I thought I would. Slate in at least three days here - you'll regret it if you don't.

3. Siena - also went here last month. We spent a full day here - day trip from Florence. Regret not spending the night so two days here should be perfect!

4. Cinque Terre - also went here last month. We spent three nights and felt it was perfect. We hiked the whole area and lots of time for exploring, eating, and
   relaxing. If you like to hike and love scenery - give it at least two days with no traveling.

5. Venice - didn't make it here mainly because of the advice on this forum. One day in Venice isn't worth the effort. Save it for another trip. Add extra time to another place - like Rome or Paris.

6. Tuscany/Florence - you group them together? Florence was amazing. We just spent three days there plus one day spent in Siena. Florence will mean nothing to you if you spent less than two days. There is way too much to see and the whole atmosphere requires getting to know her.

Germany - can't help you here. It's still on my list of "to go to" destinations. My suggestion might be to save Germany for another trip and split those extra days between Italy & Paris. Ideally: 2 more days in Paris, 1 more day in Florence, 2 more days in Rome.

Just an opinion from a well-traveled person. You'll have a great trip no matter what you do. You can't see it all but spend the required time needed to fully appreciate Paris, Florence, Rome - you'll have a great time!

Lauren,
I didn't see you "updated" itinerary. MUCH BETTER! I wouldn't have too much to add to that, since it's your first trip to Europe. You'll find the places you love and want to return to see again. This forum, no forum, will ever help you do that - it's purely your own opinion.

Best of luck on your travels!

You must think you're are going to fall asleep in one town and wake up in the next. You seem to have ignored travel time almost completely.

Other than levitation, how do you on getting from place to place?

If by car, get familiar with via Michelin.

If by train, get familiar with the German Rail query page.

Put some travel times into that itinerary.

Added: I noticed that there are a few connections from Vernazza to Venice that include night trains, but they are generally 8-9 hours, with only 5 hours on the night train, and 3 or 4 other trains, so you would be changing trains all night long. I wouldn't recommend it headed into just one day in Venice. But are you going to give up a day in Cinque Terre for travel to Venice?

--

I notice one itinerary has you flying to Rome, but the other doesn't. I assume you haven't made flight reservations yet. Do you think you can get them at this late date? In your planning, consider the time to, at, and from airports. For example would you use RyanAir from Paris (Beauvais) to Rome? You have to leave downtown Paris 3 hours before flight time and it takes an hour getting off the plane and into Rome.

I would start at your city of arrival. What do you want to see there? Give enough time. Then figure how much time to where you want to go next, and how much time you will need there. I think you will find that it will take a lot more time than you think. Since you are flying in and out of Luxembourg, I would concentrate on seeing Netherlands, Belgium, France and Western Germany. You might have a little time for Switzerland.

Thanks for all the input everyone!
I have significantly slimmed down my itinerary and I think it is much more doable...and far less exhausting. We will now be spending 3-4 nights in each location for the most part.

I have booked a few places and I am working on booking the rest of my accommodations...keep your fingers crossed :)

Cheers!

Glad you chose fewer places and will spend more time in each one. I was exhausted just reading the original list! And no travel time was factored in. Enjoy your trip. Be sure to keep it relaxed and savor each day without rushing.