Finally! First time to Europe: Itinerary Advice

Hi David, if you're changing your flight plans, you might want to think about leaving from Rome rather than London.

Should absolutely do an open jaw ticket. Into London and home from Rome. It will be cheaper and give you another day in Rome instead of the airport.

It is generally easier to think in terms of nights rather than days. 3 nights, for example, gives you only two full days in your destination.

Don't count on linking up these places with overnight trains. Sounds good on paper, a bit less good in reality. Most places are no longer linked by overnight trains because of the much faster daytime trains now available, and those overnight trains which remain are often not direct. Not much fun changing trains in the middle of the night or waiting on a platform at 2 in the morning. Also, most people find that trying to sleep on an overnight train is dubious, so wander in a bit of daze the next day. It only gets worse if you do it repeatedly.

For the Eurostar between London and Paris you need to get on the stick. Most of the low priced tickets are likely to be gone; same with any low priced aircraft you are hoping to catch.

If your 3 days in Paris included travel in and out, so only one uninterrupted day of sightseeing, you are likely to feel shortchanged.

Less is more. Everytime you change locations you lose at least half a day what with packing up, checking out, getting to the transportation, traveling, finding your way around in the new place, finding and going to the new place to sleep, checking in, unpacking, etc.

The less you do that the more fun you will have where you are.

Thanks Nigel. Very Sound Advice!

Thanks for all your comments, I will double check plane prices, and add another four days to the itinerary to allow for more of a cushion between spots. I still am looking for advice on cheap / smart travel travel. Also is their anything else I should take into account other the airport location, and price when searching for flights (in Europe) through a general search engine?

Finally, if I'm flirting with the idea of adding Istanbul, and Athens as a final stop prolonging the trip another 3 days or so...any advice here if that actually happens?

Making a lot of big decisions in a short amount of time, again only recently discovered I'd be able to live out this dream...Thanks!

Does your $50 a day include accommodation, food and entry to attractions? The cheapest place to stay in London will be the Youth Hostel Association places - rooms cost from £28 per night in a shared dormitory.

There is a lot of travelling with little time for sightseeing.

Sure, extend your time another few days if you can, but don't complicate it by adding Athens and Istanbul. This is your first trip, and you are going solo. You have no idea how much energy and time it takes to do what you already have planned. Just doing day-to-day things that are automatic at home can be draining abroad (doing laundry, buying/fixing meals, navigating public transportation, etc). You don't seem to be allowing travel time between your locations, and as someone else mentioned, you lose at least a half day with each move. For example, when is the travel between Prague and Venice, or Amsterdam and Berlin? You can't just magically arrive in the next city without losing time in either. And you are allotting so little time to these great cities that all you will remember of them is the transportation in between. Europe will still be there in five years or whenever you can next travel. If you scale it back you will have a better trip.

Dear Miracleworker81 - You are trying to work a miracle by making days last longer, but in reality they are only 24 hours long. Moving locations uses .5 days from the spot you are leaving to check out and get to the train station or airport and .5 days from the spot you are arriving to get to your hotel and check in. Then you need to add travel time . Also, counting nights is the way to plan, and 2 nights gives you only 1 full day in a location. Agree with Nigel, Jennifer, and Nancy. You will feel shortchanged in Venice, Paris, and probably others. Istanbul will require a few nights and Athens 3 nights. Add another four days but not to add more locations. You should add one more night to Venice, Florence and Rome. Have not been to Prage, Berlin or Amsterdam but it seems you could add one night to a location where you currently have only 2 days. If you based your schedule on your interests then you should allow time to actually experience what you are interested in. Your trip will be more enjoyable and more memorable.

My advice is get a map out and put some pins in it. To be efficient you either work a circle route (that is often difficult) or you work a lineal route - generally much easier. The trains are best. The high speed trains are the quickest but the most costly also. If willing to lock into a specific schedule, advance purchase of high speed train tickets can provide substantial discounts. For slower trains, IC, IC Express, Regional, etc., the savings is not as great. You trade speed for cash. And sometimes the speed difference may only be an hour or so. Night trains are also dead. A few a still around but it is not convenient. And, of course, if trying to save you need to focus on transportation because that can eat up the budget in a hurry especially for long distances.

Also think about developing the mental attitude, "We can always see that the next time." That helps resolve the problems of deciding or splitting time between different locations. That was my wife's attitude on our first trip and make things flow a lot easier. Our next time was about twenty years later but now very frequently.

For transportation options, look at https://www.rome2rio.com/.
Click on the bus, train or plane icons and it will pull up providers of those services.
Click on the providers for schedules and pricing.
Is $50 your budget for transportation, food and lodging?

Instead of flying from Rome to Istanbul or Athens, using the extra time to add some smaller towns along your route would also give you a more diverse experience. Smaller towns can have a much different charm, ambiance, and manageability than the big cities you have listed. You can read about some of our favorites at http://www.ricksteves.com/europe and in Rick's guidebooks.

There are no overnight trains on the route you described. There are night trains from either Munich or Vienna to Venice/Florence/Rome. If you're going to do all this continental travel by train, then consider a Eurail Global pass to cover your 10 longest days of travel within 2 months ($480 for a youth under age 26, but much more for a single adult 26+). You might also fit most of the continental train travel into 15 consecutive days for a bit less; count them on a calendar from departing Paris or departing Amsterdam.

London-Paris Eurostar tickets are not covered by rail passes and the best fares are the first to sell out. Most other trains on your list also offer advance-ticket discounts, if you're ready to lock in that many dates and times. With a rail pass, seat reservations cost $30 2nd class for Paris-Amsterdam, $15 each for most faster Italian trains, and are an optional $5 on most German and Czech daytime trains. You should reserve well ahead for a train departing Paris, but can reserve on short notice for your other routes that require it.

How to Look Up Train Schedules and Routes Online gives you the DB train schedule link and tips for using it. This is the best indicator of which departures require seat reservations. Regional trains in Italy are only published through June 13, at this time, and the leg from Naples to Pompeii or Sorrento is by a local commuter train (Circumvesuviana), not reflected here.

Thanks everyone so much for the insightful comments. Yes, I now agree that Athens, and Istanbul can't possibly be done this trip. I will then again add more days to account for travel in between cities. In response to my budget, $50 USD is for food, and living expenses. I hope to average no more then $100 USD on travel between each city, hence the urgency of my post, so I can lock in those tickets / passes. Again this is my first go in Europe so, I value any informed advice concerning what I should expect to spend on travel, food, and living expenses. I do want to see the major museums, and sites, so please factor in any unforeseen expenses I may incur with this as well. There is some flexibility for me to increase my budget, but again I will need the cheapest options. Again you've all been very helpful!

I am sorry to rain on your parade but your budget is very unrealistic especially for the cities you have chosen. London, Paris, Rome, are some of the most expensive cities. You need at least a 100 Euro a day just for food, lodging, entrance fees, etc. Lodging, even a hostel can take a big chunk out of the $50/day you are proposing.

I agree with the comments about $50/day being too low. In London, even a hostel will be pretty close to that. If your budget is not flexible, reducing the number of cities and cutting down your inter-city travel will help. London, Paris, and Rome are the three most expensive cities in Europe. If you have your heart set on seeing these cities, consider reducing the amount of time spent there. And when possible, avoid weekend stays where prices will be even higher. Or reduce the time of your trip- not ideal. I know the feeling of wanting to spend every minute possible over there. But a shorter, more comfortable trip is better than going hungry, not being able to afford to see a sight, or building up credit card debt.

Miracleworker, unfortunately, I agree with earlier comments about the $50/d budget. In addition to the hostel prices mentioned above, many major museums charge admission of ~$20. (London is the exception, where most major museums are free... but lodging is very expensive.) Also your requested "cheapest" and "most convenient" transportation combination doesn't typically exist -- choose cheapest or most convenient. Regional trains are cheaper than high-speed trains, but they are also slower and you have identified a very large number of destinations.

Your message title says "backpacking", and if you truly intend on doing that, be sure you budget enough for transportation between campgrounds and city center. I've also seen folks mention couchsurfing websites for free lodging, so maybe...

Unless you really plan on couchsurfing for free, I suggest cutting trip duration in half, which will also save you money on transportation between cities. That would increase your daily budget to well over $100/d. Still tight, but probably doable, if you strictly economize on food and lodging costs. For example, you could do Days 1-13 (London, Paris, Amsterdam) OR Days 17-25 (Italy, adding any "extra" days to one of the identified destinations, not a new distination). In my experience, London, Amsterdam, and Venice are particularly expensive for lodging.

I can tell I will be up late all this week doing research, but my itinerary now looks like this. I welcome any comments as to the order or specific day I’m arriving where—for example one of my days in Rome is Sunday, so I’m concerned about closed days.

Again this schedule is flexible. I understand that I will need to increase my daily expenses budget. I welcome any more advice on how much I should be looking to spend on accommodations, food, and admissions in each location. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Day 1-4 (Thurs. 11 June – Sun.15 June) London – 4 days
Day 5 (Mon.15 June) London – Paris
Day 6-8 (Tues. 16 June – Thurs. 18 June) Paris – 3 days
Day 9 (Fri. 19) Paris – Prague
Day 10-11 (Sat. 20 June – Sun. 21 June) Prague – 2 days
Day 12 (Mon. 22 June) Prague to Venice
Day 13-14 (Tues. 23 June – Wed. 24 June) Venice: 2 days
Day 15 (Thurs. 25 June) Venice to Rome
Day 16-18 (Fri. 26 June – Sun. 28 June): Rome – 3 days
Day 19 (Mon. 29 June) Rome to Pompeii
Day 20 (Tues. 30 June) Pompeii – 1 day
Day 21 (Wed 1. July) fly back to London from Naples and then fly home* (at present my trip leaves LGW at 12:20 on 2 June) – subject to change-

How are you going from Prague to Venice? There is also the night train option from Munich....Munich to Venice.

Budget airline, Wizzair flies from Prague to Venice Treviso. Shuttle bus into Venice
40 min. Cost 10 euro

I'm embracing the "I'll see it next time" mentality. Please scratch Venice off and substitute it with Budapest. So this is what I'm working with now:

Day 1-4 (Thurs. 11 June – Sun.15 June) London – 4 days
Day 5 (Mon.15 June) London – Paris
Day 6-8 (Tues. 16 June – Thurs. 18 June) Paris – 3 days
Day 9 (Fri. 19) Paris – Prague
Day 10-11 (Sat. 20 June – Sun. 21 June) Prague – 2 days
Day 12 (Mon. 22 June) Prague to Budapest
Day 13-14 (Tues. 23 June – Wed. 24 June) Budapest: 2 days
Day 15 (Thurs. 25 June) Budapest to Rome
Day 16-18 (Fri. 26 June – Sun. 28 June): Rome – 3 days
Day 19 (Mon. 29 June) Rome to Pompeii
Day 20 (Tues. 30 June) Pompeii – 1 day
Day 21 (Wed 1. July) fly back to London from Naples and then fly home* (at present my trip leaves LGW at 12:20 on 2 June) – subject to change-

Thanks to everyone I have some solid leads on transportation, but still would appreciate budgeting advice, and any insight on limitations based on the specific days or order of my itinerary. Thanks tremendously!!!

I would stay in Sorrento or Napoli rather than Pompeii. You might consider going directly from Florence to Sorrento/Napoli/Pompeii and end with your nights in Roma, avoiding passing through Roma a second time. Or, you could add a night to Roma and do a long, long daytrip to Pompeii.

Does your budget include meals, transportation, museum/sightseeing costs, snacks? I work with a pretty tight daily budget and try to alternate "skinny" and "splurge" days rather than go straight down the middle every day.

Also, you should try thinking in terms of nights, not days. One night is one night, a day can be anywhere from a full day to a couple of hours.

What about seeing Prague OR Budapest? Two days (one night) is not much time to see a city, especially when you are working on a tight budget and have paid extra transportation costs to get there.

Also, you can do Pompeii from Rome as a day trip. It is a long day but doable. But if your flight out of Naples is a definite, it makes sense to stay in Naples when you see Pompeii

Kristen, her latest itinerary shows 3 nights and 2 full days in each of Prague and Budapest. Not enough for me but definitely enough for a 'taste' of each city.

Hi,

I agree Budapest is a better choice. It has one of the better hostels around, Wombats, relatively new within the last few years. Then how are you going from Budapest to Rome?

The idea would be to fly from Paris to Prague. I think with the updated list we can simply interchange "days" with nights in the city, traveling between cities would add another night to the city of arrival.

Each city will vary in price, but I'm getting the feeling that a daily budget for accommodations/sightseeing/food of 80€ (on average) may work???

For some budget tips, mostly about lodging but also other items, a great website is EuroCheapo. You can see what the "cheap" places in each city cost. To start, here's their London page: http://www.eurocheapo.com/london/ - you'll see why we're concerned about your budget!

Other sources of inexpensive lodging (mainly, but not only, hostels) are http://www.hostelworld.com/ and http://www.hostelbookers.com/. Their reviews can also be very useful in helping you pick a place to stay.

If that is €80 per person that's more than enough. If it's €80 for two, that's going to be tight. Assuming it's the latter, if you stay in hostel dorms, eat a number of meals from the supermarket, and avoid most high cost attractions, it probably will be doable. Keep in mind that to get two people into many of the major museums, you're going to spend about $40 (plus typically another $5-10 if you want audio tours).

Hi,

If you end up choosing Budapest (I would, maybe for different reasons than yours), you can go from Budapest to Rome with a night train and flying combo. The EN night train Budapest to Munich is still in operation, contrary to some of the other abolished night routes, then fly from Munich to Rome.

So long as I can safely lock myself in, a night train from Budapest would be great! I'm an easy sleeper--grew up near train tracks. €80 a day would be a budget for one person, hopefully this holds true because honestly I don't think I can go much higher. Thanks to everyone I have a lot of research to follow up on, which I could take time off to plan all this future time off! I've borrowed a few of Rick's travel guides, and I hope to put together a detail itinerary down to sightseeing/method of travel and let everyone critique it in the next couple of days. Again, I love the responsiveness I've gotten from this community! Take Care!

So long as I can safely lock myself in, a night train from Budapest would be great!

Sorry, not if you are saving money.

If you are saving money you will either travel in a chair, which you can't secure, or in a 4 person or 6 person couchette which you will share with up to 3 other or 5 other strangers. The door on the couchette does close, but you will have all those other people also working the same lock and perhaps coming and going during the night.

The only way you can be sure of being able to lock yourself in is if you are the only person in a deluxe first class sleeping compartment, and that and saving money are pretty much incompatible.

Sorry

Hi,

The EN night train Budapest-Munich offers the couchette, as explained above, the more expensive sleeper, and the absolute cheapest a seat in a 6 seat compartment. Those sell out too. If I were taking that EN train, I'd pick the compartment seat, not my first choice as regards to night train seating but the other two options are out of the question.

Sitting amongst 5 other strangers, that is, if it's a full compartment, could get tight depending on the luggage. Keep in mind you're a stranger to them too.

Very busy over the past week, but borrowed two Rick Steves Europe through the Back Door, and bought Rick Steves, London, Paris, and Rome 2015 and the Seventh Edition of Eastern Europe and outline this more detailed 3 week solo backpacking itinerary:

London
Night 1: Thursday, 11 June
Arrive to London Gatwick (LGW) at 10:50
Train from Gatwick to London
The British Museum, Piccadilly Circus, London Eye

Night 2: Friday, 12 June
Tower of London, Tower Bridge, Number 10 Downing Street, West Minster Abby, Big Ben/Houses of Parliament, West End Play at 19:30 Book of Mormon (?)

Night 3: Saturday, 13 June
Double Decker Ride, Buckingham Palace, St. James Park, Trafalgar Square, The National Gallery, Royal Opera House, Regents Park open air theatre Peter Pan 19:45 (?)

Night 4: Sunday, 14 June
St. Paul’s Cathedral, London Bridge, Shakespeare’s Globe, Tate Modern, Millennium Bridge

London – Paris

Night 5: Monday 15 June
Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens , Walk by Harrods, Eurostar to Paris

Paris
Night 6: Tuesday 16 June
Notre-Dame, the Latin Quarter, and Sainte-Chapelle, Louvre, Eiffel Tower

Night 7: Wednesday 17 June
Champs-Elysées, the Arc de Triomphe, the grand Avenue des Champs-Elysées to Tuileries Garden, the Orsay Museum, Rodin Museum

Night 8: Thursday 18 June
Versailles, Montmartre Walk, Seine River Cruise

Paris – Prague
Night 9: Friday 19 June
*Early Flight to Prague
Jewish District

Prague
Night 10 Saturday 20 June
Sightseeing / Classical Concert or Ballet Performance

Night 11 Sunday 21 June
Sight Seeing / Night Train to Budapest

Budapest
Night 12 Monday 22 June
Sight Seeing / Splurge on a Hotel Room
Night 13 Tuesday 23 June
Sight Seeing
Night 14 Wednesday 24 June
Opera

Budapest to Rome
Night 15 Thursday 25 June)
Plane Flight, Some Sight Seeing in Rome

Rome
Nights 16-18 (Fri. 26 June – Sun. 28 June)
Sight Seeing

Rome-Pompeii-Naples
Night 19 Monday 29 June
Pompeii Day Trip by Train

Night 20 Tuesday 30 June Naples
Possibly venture out to Sorrento or Amalfi Coast

Naples to London
Night 21 Wednesday 1 July
Fly to London
Due to my round trip flight I will need to return to London
London
* Possibly check out Stonehenge.
Fly back home from London on 22 Thursday 2 July
Flight leaves LGW at 12:20

Again, I’ve had to put a lot of planning on hold because of my crazy schedule, Other than my round trip flight to and from Europe I have yet to reserve anything. I’m hoping to get some good critiques, then book travel, accommodations and shows in the next couple of days.

I've decided that my average daily budget not including shows and travel between cities will be €70 (for one person)

I hope to stay in hostels, and possibly couch surf once or twice. I will only be taking a back pack. For the most part I’m following the suggestions in Rick’s travel books in terms of itinerary.

I’d welcome any advice on the last leg of my trip after Rome up to returning to London.

I look forward to your advice!
David

Hi,

In your situation I would count on staying in hostels almost exclusively, lots of people stay in hostels to the point they are sold out. I've heard phone calls coming in at the registration desk where the poor caller is told that the night(s) in question is/are sold out. Generally, the more people in a dorm room, the cheaper it is. A ten person dorm room is cheaper than a six. I prefer a six person dorm not more. In Berlin and London you also have the choice of university dorms, such as the Tech Uni in Berlin on Hardenbergstraße (not far from Bahnhof Zoo) or the Jugendgästehaus If you're not bothered by random silly noise, I suggest the private, independent hostels in London, Berlin, Budapest, etc where there is no curfew. Generally, the private hostels are located close the train station, where I usually stay, either in a small hotel or hostel, saves time at departure too.

Hi David! Sounds like a great trip!

First, I noticed a lot of people recommended flying open jaw. It looks like you've got a round trip ticket to London. While you could fly one way to London and one way out of Rome, if you have more time than money, your itinerary doesn't sound too bad. I would check www.Skyscanner.com (similar to Kayak but scans a number of domestic European budget airlines) and of course discount airlines like Ryan Air and Easy Jet for not only your flight from Rome to London, but also because your itinerary has you going some long distances once you get to Amsterdam, and you may want to fly within Europe.

Regarding Night Trains, I know there is a Munich to Prague night train but not sure about Prague to Venice. Night trains are definitely recommended when you can find them. If you can't find a night train, I'd recommend trying to find a cheap flight. Not only may save money but would save a lot of time. However, don't forget to factor time to get to and from the airports which are often far outside of the cities. It depends on the airport.

This part of Rick's website is one of the most helpful for trains v. planes. It gives you a basis for comparing flight prices to train prices as well as relative times. http://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/transportation/trains/cost-maps For example, a train ticket from Amsterdam to Berlin is $150 one way and is a six hour ride. You may want to consider flying if you can get a cheaper flight. Berlin to Prague by train is only $85. It may make more sense to take the train.

Outside of that, if those are the distances you'd like to visit, my only recommendation would be to take one day out of London and put it in to Berlin or Prague. Having a full day in a city is the best way to see it in my opinion! Have a great trip!

Most of my trip is booked. Staying in some very budget friendly Airbnbs that have excellent reviews. Thanks again for all the advice!

Thanks for all your advice, only wish I extended my trip a day or two longer! However next year I will be traveling abroad for no less than two months for sure! I hit every place on my list, and did just about everything I planed and more---ended up sneaking in a day trip to Brussels. I loved the long summer hours, it was like crack for my adrenaline! I was definitely like a kid locked over night in a candy store, I walked until I had worn out two pairs of shoes. It was great.

I'd love any suggestions, on where I should go next. I want to pass through London again briefly, but beyond that I would like to go elsewhere in the British Isles, see Spain, Portugal, Morocco, North Italy, Perhaps Croatia, Germany, Poland, Greece, and Turkey for sure! but as before I'm flexible lol!

I found the overnight train idea interesting, although the only catch was being just too long to lay straight on the top bunk : / Anyhow wondering what other routes still have that option. It saved alot of time, and gave me an extra full day in Prague.

Anyhow thanks again for all the insight!
-David

If you enjoyed Prague and Budapest then my suggestion is to Go East!!! Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Montenegro...... Istanbul even. Wonderful, exotic, the path less traveled. Spectacular.....................

"Most of the trip is booked." Then for the next trip plan on going to places in Poland and Germany where you're most likely to be the only American...lots of towns/cities fit that bill and are worthy of your time. I know, I've been to a number of them.

I'd love any suggestions, on where I should go next. I want to pass through London again briefly, but beyond that I would like to go elsewhere in the British Isles, see Spain, Portugal, Morocco, North Italy, Perhaps Croatia, Germany, Poland, Greece, and Turkey for sure! but as before I'm flexible lol!

Spain, Portugal and Morocco sounds great, but timing is everything. Late spring through early fall will be hot. Are you flexible with timing? In 2016, Easter is near the end of March. Semana Santa (huge in Seville and a few other places in Spain) starts on Palm Sunday. Then a couple weeks later, there's Feria in Seville - another huge week there. Lots of crowds for both, high season prices, but great experiences. Overall these are cheaper countries than your first trip so maybe you could fit in a splurge. Or avoid them and have more money for other places. I've been to Spain twice, both times in February. Mild weather, not hot, mostly sunny, and low season prices. I think the southern Portugese villages are pretty much closed up in winter, but there'd be a lot to see elsewhere. Parts of Morocco are not good in winter. You can take ferries or cheap flights between Iberia and Morocco. This year I flew for about $100 from Bologna to Seville, so that's an option to get to Italy. Also I'm sure there are cheap flights from London to Iberia/Morocco - lots of Brits travel to those locations, especially in off-season.

This would be a great trip for 2 months - Sep/Oct ...

British Isles - 1 week
Croatia - 1 week
North Italy - 2 weeks
Spain - 2 weeks
Portugal - 1 week
Morocco - 1 week

Aaah, David. I love the way you dream.

Which David ? It was he who made me do it !!

I'd love any suggestions, on where I should go next. I want to pass through London again briefly, but beyond that I would like to go elsewhere in the British Isles, see Spain, Portugal, Morocco, North Italy, Perhaps Croatia, Germany, Poland, Greece, and Turkey for sure! but as before I'm flexible lol!