Feedback on proposed 3 week itinerary with teens

First, the same comment made about most itineries, Do not try to squeeze too much in. Work out the actual travelling time between each destination. Possibly drop one destination and stay longer in one place. "2 nights" could mean only 1 day, because most of the day before and the day after would be travelling.

Use http://www.viamichelin.com/ for driving and www.bahn.de for trains. Viamichelin is good because it gives you distances, times and costs (fuel + tolls). For example, Gimmelwald to Lucca it lists as:

• Costs 127.99 € with a Petrol vehicle | Toll 32.30 € | Petrol 66.57 € | Road tax 29.12 €
• Time 06h50 with 04h40 on motorways
• Distance 554 km with 454 km on motorways

Problem 1: Have you costed the hire car? International one-way car hire can be very expensive. Because they have to drive the car back to it's country of origin.

Problem 2: Gimmelwald is car free. You have to leave the car in a car park in the bottom of the valley, and take a cable-car up. So you are paying for a hire car and parking for 2-3 days and getting no benefit.

As I am sure you know, Venice is also car-free. You will need to drop the car off in Mestre on the mainland, and get a local train or bus into Venice.

An option would be dropping the car off at Geneva airport (French side), then train to Montreux etc. Pick up another hire car in Italy.

First off, have you asked your sons what they are interested in? They might be more interested in places like Rome and Pompeii, and eating pizza in Naples.

Second, its too fast. Both London and Paris should have more time. 5 nights each would be ideal, more if you could swing it.

I think some people will say this is too much but I think its totally doable for the 16 year old boys. I assume they have plenty of energy! I remember going on a trip at this pace when I was 17 and it didn't even faze me. Sounds like a really nice mix of places to visit.

I think it looks like a great trip, with minor adjustments.

When our kids were teens, we did trips with a series of 3-night stays Ike this, but all within one country (Switzerland or Italy). You have added quite a bit of travel time between stops. And Lucca is quite a bit off the main path. So I would suggest you omit Lucca and add 1 night to London( jet lag recovery) and maybe build in a stop between Gimmelwald (or check Mürren) and Venice.

Also consider Chris's comments about the rental car. Have you priced the one-way rental from France to Italy? That will generally incur a huge drop fee, which is not always obvious from the rental website. Your entire itinerary, up to Trieste, is easily done by train. And did you consider the ferry from Venice to,Croatia ( I think it goes to Split)?

If you're wanting to go to so many places, have you considered flying on the budget European air carriers for some legs of your trip?

I suggest flying into Paris for 4 nights, and then take the Eurostar train to London and spend 4 nights. Then fly on EasyJet to some place like Rome. Italy has a great network of fast and inexpensive trains, and you can see so much more in a short amount of time. I usually avoid Switzerland, as Western Austria's mountains are of incredible beauty, cheaper and easier to get to. If I was a young man, I'd certainly want to see Munich--with many great travel sights for young men. It's also a much better place to fly home from--than Trieste or Venice.

A couple thoughts.

Obviously it's a lot, so you're going to be moving at a fast pace. Remember 2 nights equals 1 full day at a destination, 3 nights equals two days, etc. The day on either side will be a travel day - so plan those (using viamichelin as recommended above).

My rule on how long to stay somewhere is to first scour all sources for things to see and do there. I pick a set of must sees and divide by two (one sight in the morning, one in the afternoon) to get a relatively comfortable stay. I also keep a list of sights that are "nice to see, if I have time" in my back pocket and drop in on those if I get the chance. I normally find I want longer stays in places like London and Paris, because there is so much to see and do - and relatively short stays in smaller towns. I still like to do 2 nights minimum - even when there isn't much to see - just to keep the packing and unpacking manageable.

The only place on your list I would skip is Lucca. Some people like it. For me it's a non-hill town in an area where there are some great hill towns to visit. I think Rick recommends Lucca because it's easier to get to than the better hill towns (but you are driving so that's not a factor). It's also flat, so it's good for people who have trouble getting up and down hills (again not a factor for teens/younger families).

Expect lots of rain in London, but should be nice as you get south of the Alps.

For longer trips, especially in a larger vehicle, a lease may be the better option. We leased a seven passenger car for five of us (one carry-on each) self, spouse, boys 16 and 12, plus daughter 8. It was perfect for our trip but would have been too small if we were bigger people or carried more bags. Rental prices go up quickly for other than economy cars, leases seem to be more reasonable in relation to rentals as the size of the car increases.

Thanks so much to all contributed with excellent advice and suggestions! I've taken much of the feedback into consideration - asking the kids what they're interested in seeing/doing, reducing car travel between destinations and focusing more on train service and air, and trying to be a bit more realistic about our travel itinerary in general. Here's a revised plan - again, please provide advice, feedback, suggestions, problem areas, things to consider, etc.

• Fly into Munich, rent car, acclimate to time zone, visit Dachau, focus on city highlights (TBD) - 2 nights
• Drive south to Bavaria, visit castles, Austrian alps, stay in Fussen or Reutte - 2 nights
• Drive to Lauterbrunnen, stay in Gimmelwald, tour Jungfrau region - 3 nights
• Drive to Bern, drop off car, take train to Rome; Visit major Rome sights (TBD) - 4 nights
• Fly to Trieste Italy, rent car and drive to Rovinj, Croatia; R&R on the beach - 3 nights
• Drive to Trieste, drop off car, take train to Venice; See major sites (TBD) - 3 nights
• Fly to London, see major sites (TBD0 - 4 nights
• Fly home

Just curious, why Trieste. Is it just a transfer place between Italy and Croatia? there isn't much to see there. look into hydrofoil from Venice to Rovinj.

I am sort of surprised you dropped Montreux from your trip. I would have though that a visit to Chateau Chillon would interest 16 year old boys...

That looks like a nice trip too, much more compact than the first one. I like that you put London last. This will avoid the problem of a very early morning flight from Venice that many travelers face.

I do have a couple of suggestions:

Use the s-bahn to get from the Munich airport to a hotel in the city center. Do not rent the car until you are ready to leave to tour Bavaria. Add a night to that portion and include Dachau there rather than a daytrip from Munich (with only one full day in Munich you don't have time. It would be good to add a night to Munich too, actually).

Taking the car into Switzerland to spend three nights at Gimmelwald! with the car parked and useless! is not a good plan. And taking the car to Bern to drop it would be going backwards. Instead, drop the car in Germany on the Swiss border and continue by train. Two towns along the Bodensee have worked for others in this respect: Lindau or Friedrichshafen. You would then ferry across the lake to a train station. Take a look at the Swiss rail map to see how this works. Google "Swiss synoptic map" to see it.

You would then take the train from Gimmelwald onward to Rome, starting with the fun cablecar ride. This is about a 7-hour trip, going via Milan. If you wanted to add Montreux back in to the plan, it would fit here ( between Gimmelwald and Rome).

Flying from Rome to Trieste: this will cost around $214 per person on Alitalia. I did not find any flights on the budget airlines like Ryanair or EasyJet. The train would cost much much less and at 5.75 hours would not take much longer than the flight, by the time you factor in travel to the Rome airport and security/wait time.

And do you really want to go to Trieste to rent a car for Croatia? Most rental companies prohibit taking a car from Italy into Eastern Europe, which includes Croatia. Read more about this on Auto Europe's website, then call the number given to discuss with them before putting this plan into your trip.

http://www.autoeurope.com/go/travel-tips/eastern-european-travel/

The hydrofoil from Venice to Rovinj may be the better option. Then rent the car in Croatia.

Consider an apartment rather than hotel in Venice, and maybe Rome as well. You will have more space at less cost, plus the ability to cook some meals. Keeping boys that age filled up gets expensive when you travel!

Thank you Lola for the great advice! I do agree that having a car in Gimmelwald may not be necessary although we are planning day trips where we would utilize a car but probably easier to take advantage of the trains. I do like your idea to drop the car off near the Swiss border and take the ferry and train to Lauterbrunnen. I am tentatively adding Montreux back into the itinerary as we would really like to spend some time there but am worried it may be one destination too many. I've made some more adjustments (v3.0) to the plan and will continue to refine.

Couple questions: given our timeframe of mid-June to begin our trip, how soon in advance would you recommend booking our flights? And your comment that flights on Alitalia from Rome to Trieste will run around $214 per person concerned me however i found fares from Rome to Venice through Google Flights (on Alitalia) for $78. Is this legit???

Ok so the revised itinerary is as follows:

Fly into Munich. Spend 2 nights then rent car and tour Dachau then head south to Bavaria.
Setup home base in Reutte or Fussen and take day trip to visit castles. 2 nights.
Drive to Lindau and drop off car. Take ferry to Rorschach, SW and catch train to Lauterbrunnen. Spend 3 nights in Gimmelwald.
Take train to Montreux, spend 2 nights.
Take train to Rome, spend 4 nights.
Fly or train to Venice, spend 3 nights.
Take ferry to Rovinj, Croatia, rent car. Spend 3 nights.
Take bus to Trieste airport and fly to London. Spend 4 nights.
Fly home.

I like the idea of renting an apartment We are looking at apartments in Rome, Venice and possibly even London. Am using Airbnb and finding some great places at reasonable prices!

I added a couple days to the overall itinerary to avoid any stays less than 2 nights.

Let me know what you think!

Your itinerary is coming together nicely. I just want to offer a bit of info on the Berner-Oberland and passes for trains and lifts in the area. There are MANY choices and you have to know what you want to do to get the most out of a pass. There is a Berner-Oberland Regional Pass and a
Jungfrau Pass. The second one does NOT cover Gimmelwald, so be sure you buy the right passes. And though the passes are expensive, they save you a lot of €€ on the lifts and trains.