We are planning an extended stay in Europe - perhaps 9 M. This will require the appropriate visa. We will probably stay in Hungary, Germany, and France, hopefully at long-term rental prices ($1200/m) not short term ($1200/d).
I am assuming that we can get 1 extended-stay visa and use it in 3 countries. If so, which is the easiest?
From what I have read here, that is very difficult, but I have no personal experience. Good luck!
I suggest you check with the embassy/consul or each country. Or look on the website for the "European Commission on Migration and Home Affairs". There is no single website for the entire Schengen area. Definitely do diligent research before going. If you overstay your time you may be barred from returning for several years, or permanently. And long-term rental prices for about $1200 per month may work in Hungary, but I doubt in France or Germany, unless in a rural area. Mr E can answer your questions re Hungary. He is very knowledgeable about all things Hungary.
Another thought. Spend just under 90 days in one Schengen country, a few days in a non-Schengen country, then the next (just under) 90 days in a Schengen country. Rinse, repeat. I say just under 90 days, because if there is any delay or problem (transportation, illness, etc.) and your departure is delayed by even one small part of a day, you are overstaying. Arrival day and departure day each count as part of the 90 days. Best to not cut it close.
I follow lots of full-time travelers on YouTube. Amelia & JP seem to have this ex-pat stuff dialed in. You might check out their channel. I know they have videos on how to do this.
I have thought about the 90 in-90 out scenario. That's certainly a possibility save for the fact that most of our interests lie in the Schengen zone. We do have interests in Bulgaria-N Macedonia-Albania-Serbia, which are all non-Schengen.
Just checked - Bulgaria is Schengen.
Also there is the UK, but it's expensive, and we are cheap. So, I'm not sure we could spend time there on our budget.
Judy, the clock doesn't reset to 0 when you leave the Schengen zone. You are allowed 90 days in any 180 day period. Stay for 90 days, then you are inadmissible for the next 90 days.
From what I have read, which certainly isn't detailed, getting an extended visa isn't easy, and the criteria are quite strict. The embassies will give the current, official requirements.
I think the rental costs are optimistic in Germany or France, except possibly in villages. A furnished place will cost more. Utilities likely won't be (fully) included. Insurance? Security deposit? It adds up.
I'm not aware of any long term visa that will allow you to stay in three different countries. Long term stay visas are for a particular country, not multiple countries. If anyone knows different, please correct me.
I am assuming that we can get 1 extended-stay visa and use it in 3
countries. If so, which is the easiest?
Don't assume that. Normally a visa is just valid for the country that issued it.
Another thought. Spend just under 90 days in one Schengen country, a
few days in a non-Schengen country, then the next (just under) 90 days
in a Schengen country.
That would be a massive overstay that would most likely result in a long ban from returning.
Yeah, the only approach is to spend 90+ days OUTSIDE of the Schengen zone, and not enter for even a minute during that time out. Pretty strict, and the options are pretty limited. Many of the non-Schengen countries are also involved in the Russia-Ukraine thing, so that would be a safety issue.
I am an expat in one of the countries you are considering. You haven't got much of a chance getting the sort of visa you want.
If any individual country gives you one you will be required to be in that country to tge extent that you become a tax resident. That's a new can of worms.
It is 90 in any 180 which is different than 90 in and 90 out. Use an online Schengen calculator and play with dates.
Many of the non-Schengen countries are also involved in the
Russia-Ukraine thing, so that would be a safety issue.
Which cointrirs would those be? I mean besides russia and belarus. And what "thing" would you be referring to? You might want to broaden some understandings before you attempt this.
If I had to leave Schengen, my first two choices would be Ukraine and Montenegro: despite the "thing".
If I had to leave Schengen, my first two choices would be Ukraine and Montenegro: despite the "thing".
Montenegro I could see. It has a level 1 travel advisory. But Ukraine? You can't seriously be recommending travel to an active war zone with a level 4 DO NOT TRAVEL warning. And you know perfectly well that the OP was referring to the war.
And long-term rental prices for about $1200 per month may work in Hungary, but I doubt in France or Germany
For Germany I would put a big question mark on it. Real long-term rentals (years) in larger towns might be under the price when small enough but in nearly all cases they are completely empty and you will have no real chance to find / get a free apartment. In most big city cases a few hundred people apply for the same apartment. The furnitured apartments are in most cases over the mentioned price.
In a few less attractive towns and villages the situation might be different.
Be careful that you do not plan to start any kind of working or income-generation with a visa type which does not allow this.
The problem you have is that you do not apply for a long stay visa for the Schengen zone, but a country. As part of that process. you need to show proof of residency in that country, so if Hungary as the application country, you need to show proof of residence for 6 months, or the term of the stay (1 year) in Hungary. That essentially means you pay for a residence in Hungary for the term, then also elsewhere as you travel.
However, technically, you are restricted to 90 in 180 days for the rest of the Schengen area...hard for someone to check, but residences you stay in may ask for proof of ability to be there.
Yes, I would indeed suggest Lviv (US State Department Level 3 which is the same as Egypt and most of Central America and Jamaica and parts of Mexico) and Montenegro (Level 1). Both I suspect safer than San Francisco (just my perception). If not to live, but just for tourism I also suggest they won’t disappoint. I know good guides in both.
I didn’t know a war was a "thing" especially when the "thing" was tied to the non-Schengen countries in general being at a higher risk. A quick look at a map and the Countries with land in Europe you will see that every country in Europe that borders Ukraine or Russia, except for Moldova is a Schengen country. With the one exception of Moldova there are no non-Schengen countries within 500 miles of the Level 4 part of Ukraine.
Interestingly enough is that while Schengen Countries like Italy, Germany, France (and a few others) are Level 2 by the US State Department, a great many of the non-Schengen countries are Level 1. The countries you will want to look at are: Albania, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cyprus, Georgia, Ireland, Kazakhstan, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine and the UK.
While you were worried about the non-Schengen country risks with the war and while another was worried that Ukraine was in its entirety a war zone If you put the two ideas together you have to ask how safe it is to go to the Schengen Countries of Finland, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania as they all border either Russia (Level 4) or Ukraine (the Level 3 portion of the country). They are all Level 1.
MarkK, you are correct, the going rate in Budapest (US State Department Level 1) for about 700sf here is maybe $700 on average. Throw in another $125 for utilities and common costs. 700sf is about the median size here.
In Lviv and in Montenegro the prices will be a bit more. I know because I priced things about 2 years ago. So all a bit cheaper than Germany (Level 2 since we are making note of such things) and France (also Level 2).
I've looked into this. There is not one long term tourist visa for ove 90 days. In fact, I don't know of any country that will issue a visa for longer than 90 days just for tourist purposes.
There are a few countries in Europe that are not in Schengen and not expensive. Most are in the Balkan area:
Albania
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Cyprus
Ireland
Moldova
Montenegro
North Macedonia
Servia
United Kingdom.
Belarus and Ukraine are also ouside Schengen.
Paul almost has it right. In Hungary on a Residency Permit you must be in the country not less than 90 days in any 180 days. Sort of the Schengen thing in reverse. I suspect that it might be the same requirement that most countries use, but thats a guess. When you cross the 180 day mark, Hungary will claim you as a tax resident and you will pay their income tax on your US earnings. Plus the US income tax of course. Then other cans of worms open up.
CJean,
Of course. I don't know where my brain was regarding the 90 days in of 180. Thanks for the reminder.
Of course, by the "Russia-Ukraine thing", I mean the war. I was avoiding the political discussions we are cautioned about.
As to the location of our long-term rentals, we would be interested mostly in small or rural districts. In France, we are looking at Bretagne, in the region NW of Quimper. In Germany, we would be looking mostly at Cottbus. We have local friends who have said they can help us, although no one has mentioned prices.
When you have a resident permit for a country you are indeed supposed to primarly live in that country. A resident permit for a Schengen Area country comes with a Schengen visa for the rest of the area included, but the 90 in 180 days rule still applies. So if you for example have a permit for France you can at most spend 90 days out of 180 outside of France. If France discovers you are not actually living at the address you claim to be living at your permit may be cancelled, with all the consequences...
There is unfortunately no long term tourist Schengen visa, and that is an unfortunate omission. It ought to be possible for tourists to tour Europe for an extended period of time provided they can demonstrate being able to support themselves over that time.
There are a couple of ways you might pull this off. Without getting to deep into the weeds.
You can do 3 months in Schengen, 3 months out of Schengen and 3 months back in. But do use a Schengen calculator (plenty of them online). Choose adjacent countries or at least countries with direct train or discount flights. You mentioned Hungary and it has discount flights to Montenegro and direct train service to Lviv which is one of the reason I mentioned those two, that and they are beautiful, facinating and affordable. But you also said long term rentals. A 3 month rental is not long term. You will end up with a discounted AirBnb and I suspect you will end up paying no less than $1500 a month in an inexpensive country like Budapest.
Another way is Denmark. Dont take this to the bank cause i find it hard to belive but I guess is true. Do the research on your own, but apparently Denmark will allow you to stay 90 days with no regard to how long you have been in other Schengen countries. So you could presumably do 30 days in each Germany, France and Hungary then head off to Denmark for another 3 months. Once again you will end up with a discounted AirBnb and I suspect you will end up paying no less than $1500 a month in an inexpensive country like Budapest.
Bite the bullet and get a residency permit. It is easier in some countries than in others. You are going to have to check each individual country. Yes, you will have to spend 90 in every 180 days in that country and yes, you will have to pay that nation's income tax unless there is a tax treaty (some have and some dont); but you will have to hire someone to make the tax declaration even if its for zero. To get the visa then make the move you might have the cost of two trips to Europe and the cost of the attorney that assisted you. Once resident you can travel a bunch. And even though as long as you stay in Schengen they will not know you have been out of your country of residence for more than 90 in 180 dont do it because if you were to get caught you may not be allowed back into schengen ever. Once again, 9 months does not a long term apartment lease make so you will be in a discounted airbnb. I have no idea what it does to your record to get a 12 month or 36 month residency visa and then skip out after 9 months. A question for your attorney.
Go back to school. Get a student visa.
In France, you can apply for a one-year resident visa that allows you 90 days outside France. You are expected to be a French resident. See the French consulate website for requirements and information on how to apply.
The UK may be expensive in tourist areas or London. But there are many areas which are good value.
The Lake District for instance may be expensive in the touristy central bit. Get out of that, especially into most of Cumberland and the opposite is true.
I don't know anything about South Dakota but certainly compared to WA (the only state I know the cost of living in reasonably well) even the Central Lakes (kind of Westmorland) is pretty good value.
Where I am in coastal Cumberland you are under an hour's drive to the central Lakes.
Many of the benefits for a fraction of the price and almost none of the tourist hassle.
First I am no help but I suspect you have your answers, Paul. In other groups I see quite a few people selecting Albania as a long stay (one-three months). I could also be happy in Montenegro. They are both less expensive for now, if you decide to go the 3 in, 3 out route as opposed to trying for a long term visa. It’s worth mentioning that a few places have digital nomad 1 year visas, but that most likely doesn’t work for you.
You can't seriously be recommending travel to an active war zone with a level 4 DO NOT TRAVEL warning. And you know perfectly well that the OP was referring to the war.
And with due respect, hopefully without getting political, Lviv is a Level 3 by the U.S. State Department standards (I haven’t checked Canadian levels). This is like at least 2 other countries people here regularly travel to in that designations are by region. I am not suggesting someone go live there but it is important for us to be factual. Plenty of people are doing this - just not people on this forum. I think it is good to realize there is a LOT of movement in and out of Lviv - not just emergency aid groups. And, while I strongly support Paul’s desire to not be political and get his thread removed (and I hope my comment doesn’t contribute), I feel rather strongly that we call a war a war. That is not political.
My suggestion would be to do some travel. Go to each of the places you are interested in. Talk to people, meet people. Maybe pay for an hour with an immigration attorney in each. Visit a real estate office and go look at rentals. Wander the stores an look at prices. Then come home and make a list of what you discovered you will need. I spent more than 15 years putting my list together before I made the move.
Is there any hard evidence anywhere that details the actual enforcement practices of overstaying a visa? Rules and potential consequences are one thing, actual consequences that get carried out another. I'd be curious to see the data, to know how often overstays actually happen - and what really happens to those who either slip up or deliberately overstay. Clearly, not all governments around the world enforce their laws with the same vigor. I'd also have to guess that some issue more lenient or more strict consequences depending on intent. I could SO see myself miscounting a day here or there.
I’m laughing because as usual many here are not answering the OP’s question! Paul, if you continue to pursue this, please come back to let us know how it works out. I dream of this as well, but it won’t happen.
Paul, this is a forum on Europe and the European resolution in the UN referred to it as an "unprovoked unjustified war of aggression". So the use of the word "war" is actually just quoting them.
We have applied for a long-stay visitor stay in France (up to a year). We have an apartment rented for the first five weeks in Bordeaux, after which we'll tour France, Spain and likely Portugal, with the longest time being in France. Crossing Schengen borders isn't something anyone keeps track of, though we're aware we're going to be limited legally to 90 days in Schengen but outside of France.
I will say that I see several comments on this thread that I believe are inaccurate relative to what is and is not possible in the visa realm. I'd recommend the OP visit the consulate webpages for the countries they wish to visit in order that they can better understand what's possible.
jphbucks, "you have applied for" does that mean you got it?
Russ, give it a try and write a trip report.
we would be looking mostly at Cottbus
Cottbus is a town which lost 20% of its people since reunion - therefore of course you will find some empty housing space, thereof around 50% not rented for more than a year with a questionable status. See article from 2024 about the situation.
The main question is what you want to do there after visiting Berlin (90 mins distance one way station to station), Dresden, Spreewald and the new artificial lake Ostsee (not Baltic Sea)?
One thing about this security level talk: Germany had around 130 persons killed by firearms in 2022 (total year); this is the number of people killed in the US by firearms every day! OK, 4x the number of people but what would be the rating of US gov authorities about security level in their own county?
We have good friends in Cottbus, it is in a good location vis-a-vis Poland and Czechia, and we like die Spreewald.
Cottbus looks interesting enough
https://youtu.be/4L2_9lihuCw?si=QuQ7Z2qUjbamSvKw AND https://youtu.be/5LmpwVzOalk?si=_P7n4vxjs8PjvuvB
Russ, your passport is scanned on the way in and out, thus a record of your movements is held.
Each country has its own approach to dealing with overstayers in practice.
The law allows for fine, imprisonment and deportation, plus a ban from re-entry for a period of time.
Predictably there is a reluctance for people to publicly discuss experiencing of law breaking.
However, people are stopped for overstaying, with greater or lesser consequences.
I won't be trying to sneak around unlawfully in Europe, Mr Ë.
It was the suggestions made here for hopscotching from here to there, moving in and out to prolong a tourist stay artificially, that prompted my questions about actual enforcement. I was curious mostly about how an INADVERTENT overstay might be looked at.
What if someone just screwed up by a day or two? What if some bad advice on this forum were followed, or one got sick/injured, or a transportation strike or a flood or a major power outage (think Spain/Portugal!) or similar event forced the overstay? Surely, such things happen and have created violations. And in such cases, I'd hope to be in a country with a record of leniency for such mistakes - or perhaps with a generally lenient or disinterested approach to enforcement when tourists are the immigration-law perps.
Apparently every country enforces Schengen independently. Under Dutch law, (so I have read, but dont take this to the bank) if one has overstayed his visa by 3 days or less, he will not receive an entry ban. If one has overstayed his visa by more than 3 days but no more than 90 days, he can receive a 1-year entry ban. If someone has overstayed his visa by more than 90 days, he can receive a 2-year entry ban. But that begs the question, if you depart out of the Neatherlands and with a 2 day overstay will it ONLY be between you and the Dutch? Or when trying to enter Italy a few months later will they see you overstayed Schengen on your last trip and deny you entry? Do you really want to mess with this? The answer is that it doesn’t matter because you aren’t going to overstay anyway.
Mr residency visa in Hungary requires that I be in Hungary not less than 90 out of every 180 days. As noted elsewhere, I could travel Schengen non-stop for a year and who would know because there is no checks on the border. People thinking that they are somehow exempt from laws they find inconvenient or unimportant is part of why the world is a mess; so I track my time in and out of Hungary.
In light of the responses here, we are thinking more of 3m-3d trips to stay in Schengen rules followed by return to US for 3m. In other words, extended tourist trips.
So you are going to stay out of trouble by doing 95 days in Schengen Sounds like a plan
You don't understand the minus sign? Back to 5th grade with you!!
In light of the responses here, we are thinking more of 3m-3d trips to stay in Schengen rules followed by return to US for 3m. In other words, extended tourist trips.
If you don't like the idea of moving to non-Schengen countries and then back to Schengen, then yes you could do separate trips going home to US in between, but that would involve additional flights (at additional cost).
Paul-of-the-Frozen-North I was being sarcastic because I figured you listed it backward (how long you would stay out, not in). I saw the minus sign the same as 6'-3" tall. Sorry bout that. Yes, its the smart thing to do. I admit that get a bit wierd about "how strict" questions.
