Expat Anyone?

This is the topic I was planning for our April International Travel Meeting. I’ll be interested in the replies you get.

My expat life in England came early, rather than later, in life. I had minimal risk - no husband, no children.

My biggest risk (and commitment to the goal) was the order of things. I sold my house, put everything in storage and lived in an apartment in the US while my future employer secured my work permit. At that age (I hadn't turned 30) I just assumed it would be successful.

I had never been to England before the day I moved there. I'd been to Europe once. It was while I was living in England that I began traveling in earnest, which was easy from there.

I think for many it is a romantic dream, but then the realities of life seep in. For me, the list of those realities are long:
- My wife's aging parents
- Wanting to be around young Grandkids and now Great Grandkids
- Pets, two dogs.
- Hobbies that do not travel well...Gardening, our Koi, Woodworking
- Property that needs to be taken care of.
- At least still for the wife, a job she still works at on a part-time basis.

We are actually working on eliminating the property, and set up temporary living and shop space at our Son's and a Daughter's places, that will make it easier to travel for maybe 3 months. We have worked to reduce the "stuff" in our life, transferring family items to the kids, pitching a bunch of stuff. I'm retired (a couple years ago at 58) and my not too much younger wife is just about out of her job. Our goal is to spend about four months each in Iowa, Louisiana, and Europe, not necessarily full "ex-pat" but maybe working into that if the right place was found.

But, the bottom line is, many dream, but decide "the time is not right", and sadly, the right time never arrives. Yeah, once the parents go, the grandkids are older, then sure...but then maybe our health will not be there, or some other reason. I think those that have made the leap, perhaps do not have the responsibilities that get in the way, but more importantly, make the "time right". and do not look back.

With me it began 15 years ago with the realization that a part time residence was not entirely impractical. I took a fraction of my retirement fund, and following my investment advisors advice, i diversified. He choked when i told him how. But i think one of the best decisions i ever made and not a terrible investment either.

The thought that it might become more was never a serious thought.

Then the US economy went to pot, and a bit of my retirement with it and my perspective changed and I started giving it serious consideration. So much less expensive for day to day life, in some ways a healthier lifestyle, and so advantageous to feed my travel desires while I can still travel.

I've begun a few processes for a move, but still not ready to pull the trigger.

My wife and I want to get out of the US when we retire in about 10 years. We've looked at:

France (too many requirements we don't meet)
Estonia (tried to come in on a tech visa, but this was before the pandemic)
Argentina (economic issues that might lead to political instability)
Canada (fall short on the points system)
Uruguay (possible; we meet the requirements)
Chile (possible, but over-all unappealing)

Right now, our best bet is Mexico (we specifically like Oaxaca). Far removed from the gang violence, good medical care, and we meet the financial requirements to gain citizenship. Plus, y'know, mescal!

We haven't "pulled the cord" yet because we want to retire first with our finances in the best shape possible. In fact, I keep a running spreadsheet that shows my potential incoming from savings/401k/stocks in 10 years (a number that keeps going down and down).

Whether we do it or not will depend on a number of factors, including income, political climate in the US and Mexico, and the "just too much trouble" factor. We'll see, we'll see...

-- Mike Beebe

I lived in Europe from 2001-2004., and have an absolute plan to return within a couple of years. At the risk of sounding morbid, I’m only held back by the lifespan of two dogs I couldn’t take with me.

Which visa/residency permit I’ll use will be determined at the time. I expect to have at least a couple options.

I dream of it, but it probably won’t happen. I have wanted to live “overseas” for a long time. I think thats why I first lived on Maui and now Alaska ( which is actually considered an overseas assignment in the military), anyhow, we have purchased our future retirement home in the Palm Springs area, which will be our winter home and then we plan to travel in the US and Europe for 5-6 months of the year.
Mister E, I am interested in your story. Are you still under Schengen rules since you own a place there?

We have considered moving also. My husband is ready to go but he is from Croatia and is more comfortable. I am learning the language but with 4 young grandchildren it’s hard to leave now. Like you we already have the apartment and it would not be a problem for me to get a visa. He has a Croatian passport.
As it is now we visit for about 2 months each year. And keep talking.
PS There was a seminar in NYC a few weeks ago explaining how to get residency in Portugal.

The EU is making Portugal close their Golden Visa program. Getting a residency visa in the EU is pretty tough if you don't have a spouse. Business visas are a bigger headache.

My application is iffy at best, and I am about 80 days from knowing. Then if granted, think of Schengen in reverse, I have to be here 90 days in every 180 days or loose it. And that's "residency", not "permanent residency" and not citizenship.

I got my place 15 years ago and prices were different back then, but I looked at some properties a few nights ago and its still possible to have an investment property that appreciates until you get tired of it and resell it without cutting too deep into the retirement fund.

I ha.ve dreamed of it for years, But my finances (or lack thereof) will not permit it. Unless I win the lottery I'll just keep dreaming. :)

You know where I am. No regrets.

Each week at a local English-speakers coffee, I meet more and more new arrivals. Yanks appear to be outnumbering the Brits right now. There's a dynamic movement taking place. They have all sold and emptied the house, taken care of business and left. Everyone is retired. No working allowed on their visas. They are in language classes and adjusting well. I know only one woman who went back to the US.

In France people can get a one-year visitor's visa and see how they like it. Nothing has to be forever.

Why: dual national, bilingual. Easy for me compared to all these arrivals I'm meeting.

When: always knew we'd move back to Europe one day. Split time for years. Now full time. We have a very active life in Europe, even during Çovid, and decided to stay. I did wait until a certain relative passed before leaving.

It can be complicated and you have to have good legal and financial advice from people licensed in both countries.

Where from: Indiana.

I have already lived (and worked in some) in five different countries: Canada, Scotland, US, back to Canada, back to Scotland, South Africa, back to Scotland, Saudi Arabia and now settled in Canada.
I think if someone has the chance, then absolutely go and live in another country….it can be wonderful!
I’m happy to now just visit other countries, and get home to my family, cat and garden after each trip!
Now, if I was still young……..🧐☺️

I know of two couples who chose to be ex-pats, making that decisive decision to leave the USA, which has already tested the time duration.

Both couples are going on 20 years living in Europe, have kids, married, one couple living in a small town in Upper Austria, the other a small town in North Germany. Not only do these individuals have my respect (obviously) but my admiration, especially that, not to mention envy. The one in Austria, a Calif boy as I am, is fluent in German, totally assimilated culturally and linguistically.

I see these dear friends, these two families, on every trip . The kids are obviously bi-lingual and bi-cultural. I speak to them in German and English, or flip back and forth with the languages. They have a good life, these two families.

We’re visiting friends this Spring who retired and relocated to southern Ireland. Mastering another language wasn’t a requirement, as it was for some neighbors who obtained citizenship and have moved to Italy for most of each year.

The first couple sold basically everything they had in New York state, and moved to Ireland with their cat and 16 full suitcases. Managing all your “stuff” would seem to be an integral part of the process.

I was 31 when I moved to Frankfurt and though there was the idea that it might be permanent, there was also the thought that it wouldn't be. After a marriage to a German, a daughter, and a divorce, I just stayed. I had residency and a job, the kids were in school, college was going to be super cheap for them, and I liked Frankfurt. It has now been 36 years. New and better husband who now also has permanent residency and loves it here. We talk sometimes about going back to the US, but that is a discussion that includes things like retirement care if one of us needs it, as the costs are better covered with Veteran status. He unfortunately has never learned German enough to take care of things if I am the one in a care facility or pass on, so it would be better for him to be in the US when that time comes. Part of me wants to live in my country again, but then staying here is comfortable. I know how things work, I speak the language, we don't need a car, it is safer here, my health care is certainly affordable, the food is better, we have our company, my kids live here, and travel is certainly a ton easier and cheaper.

Wish I could be a dual citizen though to vote here, but the laws still need to be changed here to include the US like they have so many other countries. I know lots of Americans who have renounced their citizenship due to the tax burden we have living overseas. Something like 11 million Americans that live overseas have zero representation in the government. They get kicked out of banks because the US wants foreign banks to report on their American customers. All because of the tax issues.

I still call myself an expat though and not an immigrant as that option to move back to the US is always there.

Thought about expatriating to Europe for a long time:

1) love the places and cultures
2) could live close to a number of the things I like to do outside.
3) Ability to visit and explore places within 6 hours of travel that to me are much more interesting than the same radius around Seattle.
4) an adventure with my like-minded wife.
5) affordable compared to places we want to be on the West Coast.
6) more middleclass people. Economic bifurcation is happening everywhere but much faster in the USA than most of Europe.

But I've cooled off a bit recently on the idea of moving to Europe.

1) Our kid is now too old to be happy with a move like that. Has a strong extended group of lifetime friends which ought not be taken for granted.

2) Same with us. We've always had a solid social circle, but as we've got older many of these friends have become like family. There are people who if we sent up a distress flare by text message would drop everything and race to our aid. We would do the same for them. Also not to be taken for granted.

3) we both have West Coast families with whom we are tight. And suddenly it seems like everyone is getting older. Not so much needing help as not going to be around forever. Cue repeated catchphrase.

4) The long east to west distance to visit the West Coast would realistically put a crimp in our desire to come back often. But we would like to come back often.

5) Establishing new friendships and relationships might be hard. We've done fine throughout our lives in that department, but just because you've made solid contact in back-to-back at bats doesn't mean you don't wiff on the next one. We like places like rural Teutonic areas, but the people are not quick friends. And I suppose expat clubs are fine, but a bit of a broad reason for knowing one another.

6) we travel to Europe enough now, me in particular, that some of the shine has come off the place. The reality is that if you spend months at a time and move around in the regular world a lot (not just the bus and train tourist corridors), you're going to observe some of the aspects of society that you don't like at home either. Your eyeballs get used to the way things look; the supermarket is no longer fascinating but ho-hum, the bustle is no longer exciting but a PITA. You get tired of feeling like a foreigner.

7) I tend to gravitate to choices that are highly optimal. I either want the results of choices to be all around superb, or I will wait because life is pretty good right here right now. Feels like there's a lot to lose if a move to Europe didn't turn out to be as optimal we thought.

But all that said expatriating to somewhere cool in Europe seems pretty awesome. I think if I was on the East Coast I would still be as interested as I used to be.

It seems to me that a lot of people who expatriate - not just from North America to Europe and vice versa but from everywhere to everywhere - kind of needed to do it. I think in the past I only wanted to do it, and now I'm more in the well that might be nice camp.

The first couple sold basically everything they had in New York state,
and moved to Ireland with their cat and 16 full suitcases. Managing
all your “stuff” would seem to be an integral part of the process.

Yeah this should be reason number 9 against for me, already can barely manage all of the possessions. It would be a full-time job for a year actively dealing with it all

It took three months to sell or donate everything we didn't take from a 3,000 sq ft house, moving into a 100 meter (1,000 sf) apartment. The house sold in an hour. Overseas move coordinators hired movers, the ship, got paperwork done. Easy. What is necessary is motivation. The expats I'm meeting didn't feel overwhelmed and don't look back. I haven't met anyone with strong ties to possessions. Some are buying, some are renting, but all are refurnishing. A few have a container of goods arriving. I did.

Every country has different tax and inheritance treaties with the US. For the most part, we don't have double taxation as some other countries do. In addition to what I wrote about hiring qualified lawyers and accountants, you also need to read these treaties yourself. If the administration is difficult --bank (FATCA)
driver's license, taxes, you can hire a hand holder.

Everyone here who dares to take this big step has my greatest respect. Dreaming of something and actually doing it are very different things. I probably wouldn't dare to do that.

I already have problems imagining that I am leaving Munich completely to move to Hamburg. And in between there are comparatively only a few kilometers. I would definitely prefer to rent an apartment in both Munich and Hamburg when I retire :-)

I have lived outside of the US since 2001. I moved abroad because I was offered a job that came with legal support to obtain residency and work permits. I’ve had to prove over and over again that I am a “key” worker, meaning no one in the local economy can perform my job.

What bothers me about this topic is that many Americans are so privileged that they think they can just live anywhere they want. Many often forget that there are rules and that you cannot just “show up.” Only Americans would ever think this way. Imagine someone from Ethiopia or Vietnam having similar thoughts.

I know this thread is meant to be about Americans emigrating to Europe, but looking at it the other way-

If a Brit wants to emigrate to America, to retire, rather than for a job, there are many hoops in the way which make it really difficult. In the UK you can retire, but still work casually part time. As I read it, unless you naturalise, it is not possible to do that in America, even in places where there is a Labour shortage.

Unlike a century ago, when you could just hop on a boat to the land of opportunity the welcome mat is simply no longer there.

Ins32c, it's good. There are ways without naturalization, but it's difficult and expensive. Basically a work (green) card. I secured quite a few for my employees. The cost of fees and attorneys was in the neighborhood of $20.000 and then I had to pay about 120% of the going wage for the positions. But every one of them was worth it.

My questions apply only to a European relocation. If you don’t have a native-born spouse, are too old to work, and don’t have/want to spend $$$ for a resident visa, what are the options? Are there any at all? I’m sure that there are “it depends“ answers, but has anyone actually done it under these circumstances? How and where? How long did it take? What qualified/disqualified you? How does one maneuver around Schengen? The US hardly has an open door policy, I get that, but in Europe as well as here, if you’ve got plenty of money to live on, not taking someone else’s job and have your own health insurance, what are the roadblocks? Is it primarily an issue of “We don’t want those (insert nationality here) living in my country because they aren’t like us?” Is it “Foreigners will threaten our way of life? (OK, how?) You certainly can run into that here, although I’ve never heard a reasonable justification for it. Seems to me that under the above circumstances, one would be contributing to the local economy, not taking from it. I know (and, I suspect, have issued visas to) people here who come on a tourist visa and disappear into the woodwork. Has anyone here done something similar in Europe? Before jumping in all over me, let me say that it wouldn’t be my preferred choice. I’m just curious if anyone, or if you know anyone, who has done it.

I'm working on a residency visa now. Having money and contributing to, but not taking from the society, is not an accepted justification, unfortunately. Work visas are difficult too. Somehow, you have to prove you have a skill that does not exist in some of the world's best educated societies....I suspect the truth is who you know to pull strings.

My visa is officially "other reasons" and relies on some loose work here and a 20 year relationship in the society, and a home here. My odds are 50/50 at best. The Golden Visa era when you could buy your way in is all but over.

people here who come on a tourist visa and disappear into the woodwork. Has anyone here done something similar in Europe?

I know of an American jazz musician who overstayed his visa in France, and said he simply stayed. I’m not sure how he managed to fade into the woodwork, but he’s since married a French woman, and was able to reappear from it, and isnt leaving.

As you said in the question "The responses generally centered on the impractical nature of the concept or extreme requirements for success. I am going to suggest..."
That's exactly how this thread has gone, too.

@ Emily. It's not only Americans and it's not all Americans thinking in a privileged manner. In my opinion that's a harsh generalization.

Including my military and DOD tours, I have lived in Germany for 26 years. I'm retired now and I had no problem getting an Aufenthaltstitel. As a military retiree I don't have to worry about income or health insurance. I like to think my cold war Vet time in Germany helped too. Not really a true Expat, but I have the best of both worlds. I'm happy here. I had a head start, but I would encourage those who want to try. Just back from lunch and a Bier at a local Zoigl Stuben. We'll be in Oberstdorf next week. Wein end of April and finishing travel plans now for June in Tirol. Steiermark in July and Wilder Kaiser area in September.

@wanderlust 58's question takes a lot of unpacking, and is better suited to a seminar than a forum. And one seminar for each country at that.
For the UK I've just looked it up out of interest and the answers seem to be deceptively simple. I can't help feeling there is more to it than the government website says.
The flippant answer seems to be to marry a Brit, live together here working for 2 years with a combined income of £18,600 and have enough funds to maintain yourself as you can't claim state benefits.
The more sensible answer-
For a starter we have various skills shortages, I don't think you're going to be accused of taking someone else's job. Quite a broad list of jobs you can get a work visa for.
If you have been here on a work visa for at least 6 months a year for at least 5 years, and pay the £2,400 it seems you qualify. In those 5 years to have been paid broadly £20,000 a year.
The reason for many of the skills shortages is often because pay here in many jobs is relatively low. So whether you would want to work here in say a hospital for far less than you would get at home is a moot point.

Wanderlust58- Each country has various types of residency permits with different qualifications. Spain has a “retirement” visa known at the Non-Lucrative Visa. It’s fairly easy to qualify for with about 28,000€/yr in passive income or liquid assets.

• those that are also considering (it can be an abstract thought that crosses your mind while on a trip or something more serious and
  planned)

An abstract thought is as far as it will ever go for me. It's rare we don't go somewhere and have thoughts of what it would be like to live there-for me it happens every week sitting on my own couch when I watch Million Dollar Listing Los Angeles, but then I'd want one of those mega-million dollar homes and so it becomes a daydream instead.

I think most Canadians dream of moving somewhere warmer, with more consistent weather and most of the time if they leave it's to split time between home and Arizona, Palm Springs, Florida, Mexico and lately, I'm hearing a lot of conversation about Belize. But within my circle of friends, I hear no mention of ever wanting to live in Europe.

I'm truly happy where I am, with my creature comforts, my patterns, my sports teams and of course my kids. I'll be perfectly content on taking 4-6 week long trips, possibly setting up a home base for that entire time in places like London and Nice, but in the end, I always want to come home.

mchpp, you probably already know, but if you like Obersdorf, Tannheimtal just up the hill across the Austrian border is a fantastic little Alpine Tirolean vacation spot with all the things that make the Alps charming and fun. I've spent 3 weeks total there in the past 6 years (not so much but kind of a lot in a way). My family encountered only one other group of primary English speakers when we were there. As far as I know, the area is essentially completely off the English speaking tourist radar.

Which is weird - Tannheim is a 35 minute drive from Fussen and 25 minutes from Rick Steve's oft mentioned Reutte. Backdoor? More like no door :)

Hank, we'll take a look at the Tannheimer Tal. I'll be in the Hornbachtal in June.

If I knew then, what I know now, yeah I would have done it. Well, really only if single and had no family ties. But my fantasy was living abroad in a variety of places, such as for a year or so at a time. But I am fully aware that living somewhere is different than being on vacation, and it wouldn't be as easy and painless as it seems on television and in movies.

What bothers me about this topic is that many Americans are so
privileged that they think they can just live anywhere they want. Many
often forget that there are rules and that you cannot just “show up.”
Only Americans would ever think this way. Imagine someone from
Ethiopia or Vietnam having similar thoughts.

Little harsh maybe. When I've thought about expatriating from the USA, of course researching legal eligibility was part of that process. As with many places including the USA, plenty of EU countries basically let you buy your way in, some essentially without residency requirements. Starting at $250k in "real estate investment" (local developers rejoice, the lobbying paid off). And also in many places the right job makes things easy enough. My wife occasionally gets recruited to partnerships in big international firms with offices in Europe. These "join us please" pitches usually include relocation services and offers to make our family permanent residents in 5 years.

So no assumption that one just shows up, rents a flat and the local government sends a fruit basket! But if you have some means and/or the right professional skills not much of a problem.

I have spent 8 years as an expat (husband employed) internationally, although not Europe. In fact my two oldest children were born during this time. Expat, not immigrant, as Ms. Jo said.

So I would add my encouragement to anyone considering it. This is not just for us retired people - I did it at 20. Living there was definitely different than visiting or touring. The depth of experience is much greater. There are highs and lows, just like living here. In some places it is more difficult to make friends and develop community at a deep level. Daily tasks can be frustrating. But I think when the desire for this experience exists, the opportunity makes it worth the problems.

And the effects of my experience have gone beyond just me - I now have one child living and working internationally (not the ones born overseas) and the others travel when they can. Because of my experience, they have a different world view. I don’t think of this as a “privileged” desire, although for sure that can exist - but I think more often it’s a desire to grow and expand our outlook. That can’t be a bad thing.

Hank, we'll take a look at the Tannheimer Tal. I'll be in the
Hornbachtal in June.

Thanks for the heads up on Hornbachtal! Looks amazing, will definitely visit.

Tannheimtal is a wider valley, couple of big pretty lakes, decent lift and hut system, lot of working ag in mixed. Local tourist board promotes it pretty well.

https://youtube.com/@FerienregionTannheimerTal

And the Tirol tourist board is recently also on the case "Hidden treasure" is the angle :)

I’ve spent a third of my life or thereabouts living outside the USA and have touched ground in 72 countries and had extended stays in maybe a 1/2 dozen. Travel whets the whistle but it’s not terribly instructional towards being an expat. My wife and I have found a location to hang our hats but it’s hard work and in the end comes with some sense of satisfaction. Don’t become an expat because you travel a lot. Grow roots somewhere that appeals to you and is realistic to consider and that you are willing to work hard at “living” there.

Good Luck

Good topic and responses.

Forgetting rules, laws, requirements, etc., I think it would be difficult to adapt to a new culture built entirely by the people and their ancestors around you. While I am sure you could maybe make a couple of acquaintances or even maybe a close friend, you always will be the "foreigner" in the room even if you are lucky enough to be fluent in the language.

When we travel we become enamored by the surroundings, the different landscape, the food, the music, the quaintness and we all think, "Wouldn't it be great to see this everyday?". However, reality would set in when you go about your daily life as others around you go about theirs. Eventually, boredom sets in and my guess would be your first thought would be to do more travel. However, after a point you have to return to your new homestead.

Living is certainly different than traveling, sightseeing, and exploring. I think many of us think wouldn't it be nice to live in "XXXX" and I could travel pass the 90 day limits.

If you are really considering living in another country, I would suggest traveling there, rent an apartment for 90 days and travel nowhere else for that entire time. Just pretend you live there and try and entertain yourself day to day for 90 days in that location. While it may not actually be like a full time move, it might be a small test of life living in another culture on a daily basis.

I have always said, "The grass looks greener on the other side of the pond", but is it?

Good luck to those that will and happy dreams to those of us who won't.

Loving TexasTravelMom and threadwear's replies about how to set your perspective on expatriation. Wise!

My husband and I have talked about moving abroad since about 2016. The process scares the daylights out of me. We have friends that retired and moved to Spain. I am peripherally familiar with the process, and we would definitely lean on them for advice. They joined another part of their family that had moved to Spain to follow their daughter who went abroad for a semester and never came home.

We would be retired; my husband is already retired and I'm just working for something to do for now. We could really start the process anytime once we decide. We debate about selling or renting our current home, both have merit. We are traveling to France and Italy in May and one of our stops is a place we have both said we would like to live.

We have discussed that it doesn't have to be a forever decision. Heck our friends had a two-year visa with the expectation that they would head back to US after two but have already started the process for the next two-year visa.

I'm not sure what is stopping us other than the process. We have both joined online EXPAT groups and talked to people who moved large dogs (we have one). I guess we just have to make the decision on which country so we can start their process.

My sister and BIL are friends with a married couple who taught school. When they retired at age 55 (with full pensions) they decided to move overseas and teach English as a foreign language. Their first country was Morocco and I think they're in Spain now. They stay in places for a couple of years and then move on.

It seems very exciting and it's certainly something I've thought about, but for me it probably would not work. And quite frankly, I wouldn't want to leave my grandkids (or my daughter/SIL) for such long periods of time. Plus I'm not married so it would just be me moving to a strange place and not knowing anyone. It was bad enough when I left Ohio after I retired and moved to Minnesota. 😊 I do like the idea of staying somewhere for a few months but even that requires a lot of work and expense.

As Threadware pointed out, our expectations usually are no match for the practicalities of everyday life.

"As Threadware pointed out, our expectations usually are no match for the practicalities of everyday life."

This is a supposition which can be proven only by trying it. That said, if you are saying it, we can assume that this jump isn't right for you. Travel is your passion.

Americans Head to Europe for the Good Life on the Cheap (gifted link)

Home sales to Americans have increased significantly, giving them a chance to enjoy a lifestyle they could not afford in major U.S. cities, but the influx risks upsetting local residents. ... What is cheap for these Americans is brutally expensive for southern Europeans, whose average wages are substantially lower than Americans’. Locals are competing for housing against wealthy foreigners in markets already distorted by Airbnbs and corporate real estate investment. The result is a generation failing to launch, with more than 90 percent of southern Europeans under 35 still living at home, rates that eclipse their American counterparts. Those who have apartments face evictions and unpredictable rent increases in cities with weak rental protections, like Lisbon, Barcelona and Athens. “It’s soul-breaking,” said Alkis Kafetzis, 40, a project coordinator at Eteron Institute for Research and Social Change in Athens, which studies housing inequities.

Being regarded still as the "foreigner" in the room is most likely true and accurate. The reverse is also true for those Europeans for one reason or another decide to be an immigrant here. This is also connected to the matter of being accepted, if such a thing is of importance to you. One French woman I know was already fluent in English when she got here some 40 years ago. (You wonder how she got that way) .

Obviously her accent gave her away as a foreigner in general and a French in CA in particular, and she said that she would always be seen as " the French lady" if one had to identify her.

My friend in Upper Austria (above) was already fluent in German in all three categories, speaking , reading and above all, writing when he and his wife decided 20 years ago to leave CA.

Talking to him at his house, I delve into the controversial topics of cultural assimilation, acceptance, cultural cues, which one picks up as a matter of course when one deeply studies the language, Once you are there, obviously, your language ability improves basically due to immersion, even more so if the job requires you to speak, function professionally in the local language. Of course, you can help that along by consciously working at it, ie, pounding it in.

Participating in ex-pat groups is an individual choice. Ex-pat groups have approached him re: socializing, etc. He wasn't interested.

When I was living in Florence, with an American girlfriend (eventually wife) I knew many American migrants in Florence. Many were undocumented migrants (including my American girlfriend before she took advantage of an immigration amnesty in Italy in the early 1980s).

Then I became an Italian migrant to the US myself (legal immigrant).

Being a migrant is hard.

Both I and my American immigrant friends in Florence can testify to that,

If you have the means, or if you are retired (with the means), just spend long vacations abroad and forget being a migrant.

I had the pleasure of employing about a dozen foreign nationals in the US. The majority have gotten their citizenship, and I had the pleasure of attending a few of the naturalization ceremonies.

By and large, they feel American and by and large they are accepted as equal Americans. Our history is one of immigrants so an Iranian, or any nationality, naturalized as a US citizen is more likely to feel and be respected as a US citizen than an American would feel if naturalized in their country of origin. I've seen it and discussed it with those that I helped in the process and this is their perception.

I will never forget going through passport control in Houston with one some years ago and when the agent returned the individuals passport and said "welcome home" she stopped me and told me how she felt at that moment.

My perception, maybe wrong, is that this opportunity to actually "become" an American is somewhat unique in the world.

Of course that's a bit off topic as being an expat does not require citizenship, just a residency visa.

The uniqueness of becoming American, over a fairly long portion of history now, has probably been a major contributor to the USA becoming such a melting pot of nationalities.

The €1 houses (or even free houses, if you restore them) offers that we getting some notice in the last couple of years — I wonder how successful those programs have been, and did they result in many ex-pats? Maybe there are a lot more Peter Mayles out there.

I thought I'd weigh in with my opinion, based on my experience in France. This probably would not apply to other nations in the EU, but some of it may be translatable.

Overall, I believe, based on my conversations with friends in the U.S. and comments I've read online, is that most Americans overestimate how difficult it is to become an expat in Europe. Don't get me wrong: there are hurdles; obstacles that may be impassable for some people. But for others they could do it if they want.

Take a couple of administrative hurdles: financial requirements and health care requirements/costs.

To move to France as, for example, a retiree, along with filling out various forms and supplying documentation about who you are, you would need to demonstrate a sufficient level of financial resources. That would be an impossible hurdle for some, but not all. For example, the current required level of income per month is 961.08€ for a retired individual or 1492.08€ for a retired couple living together. Using today's exchange rate from XE.com, that correlates to $1019.87 for an individual and $1583,36 for a couple. That's considerably less than the average monthly U.S. Social Security benefit of $1666.49 for an individual and $2503.83 for a married couple.

It doesn't have to be income if you're an early retiree who is not yet drawing Social Security. If you have the same amount in your savings or retirement account each year (such as a 401(k) or IRA) that would work as well.

And, France groups Social Security, other pension, 401(k) withdrawals and IRA withdrawals all together as pensions, so they're not subject, in most cases, to taxation in France meaning all you would face would be the same U.S. federal tax obligation as you would in the U.S. (but without state taxes since you're not living in a U.S. state). In short, you get the benefit of living in a high-tax/high benefit society, while only needing to pay the more modest taxes in the U.S,, which I would consider a lower tax/lower benefit society.

France also requires those seeking a long-term visa to demonstrate that they have health insurance for a year with coverage roughly comparable to that provided by the French health care system. That's a burden, with costs in the neighborhood of $10,000 for that year, based on figures I've seen.

However, once you're a resident in France for three months, you not only are are able but expected to enroll in the French health care system (referred to as PUMa, la protection universelle maladie, or universal health protection). So, if you can arrange your one-year of health care insurance to be cancellable after, say, 6 months, then the cost burden could be less. This leads to lower health care costs than you would face in the U.S., lower prescription costs, and these costs could be lowered further if you sign up for optional private health coverage (une mutuelle) to cover gaps in French health care. Count on around 90€ to 100€ per person per month if you do that.

Overall, if you don't live in high-cost locations such as Paris, the Riviera, or similar places, chances are quite good that you could live in France for less than the cost of living in the U.S., while enjoying a better quality of life.

That gets me to what I think are the real hurdles facing Americans moving to France: culture shock, distance from family and friends, isolation, and language barriers. None of those should be minimized or underestimated. They're real, and day-to-day represent a serious challenge for expats. If you feel you can handle it, the benefits can be terrific. But anyone considering becoming an expat should honestly weigh their ability to manage these matters. Your happiness and peace of mind depend on it.

This is a supposition which can be proven only by trying it. That said, if you are saying it, we can assume that this jump isn't right for you. Travel is your passion.

Bets, I agree and I certainly didn't mean to imply that expectations always are wrong - just that many people do not plan enough and think enough about the drawbacks. I envy you and your situation. :) That said, some good friends of mine recently bought a place in Pau and plan on spending 3 months there each year. They have invited me to visit so it might be possible to stay longer and get a taste of what overseas living is like. :)

Sammy, very nicely said. When you put it like that, it almost seems doable. But again, for me it's the distance from family that would be the dealbreaker.

New and better husband

Ms Jo !! Hahahhahaa

Great topic and grateful for all the thoughtful responses.
In 2010 came so close to pulling the string on a move to Spain, but then "life" occurred. Our hopes were rebounding in 2019 during another visit to Barcelona and then........... 2020. Today we have recognized another available path is to rely upon 30 to 90 day journeys are the vehicle fulfilling our dreams. We believe this path represents the best of both worlds for us while providing the opportunity to peel back the layers of daily living experiences in a variety of locales. Blessed are we who are able to travel and recognize the wealth of benefits provided by these journeys.

If you have some command of the language and knowledge of the culture, that goes a long way. You need to assimilate. That's my experience. I can't hide my American accent, but it usually brings good conversation from both sides (once they figure out where I am actually from). Going in cold would be completely different, but not impossible. A 90-day Visa is not much time. You would have to come prepared meeting the requirements for income, health insurance, language proficiency etc. From the US some US Embassies can be helpful, but since covid direct telephone access can be iffy. Definitely a full press focus, but think about the end game.

That gets me to what I think are the real hurdles facing Americans
moving to France: culture shock, distance from family and friends,
isolation, and language barriers.

The financial requirements Sammy brought up for France seem surprisingly low. But these comments sum it up for me why I have no desire to pull up stakes. I don't mean this in a rude way; it's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

The legal, official obstacles, ie, financial requirements, health insurance , the Schengen imposed 90 day limit, etc. are the real issues, as they apply to all seeking to go over as an ex-pat short-term -wise or permanently.

The other issues, ie social isolation, culture shock, assimilation and acculturation, acceptance, away from friends and support group, etc are relative. For some very important, others immaterial. One has to figure out whether these issues are paramount to successful living over there.

Being proficient or fluent in the language plus knowing the cultural cues go along way, if not the keys to getting used to living as an ex-pat. True, I wish the 90 day limit were not the law as I would like to attempt living in Germany or France for 4 -6 months., at least an experiment., dealing with daily routines, official and unofficial.

Language-wise Germany would be no problem, dealing with the locals in their language, officially and social inter-action. France would be very daunting pertaining to language. For me, everything hinges on one's active level in the language, speaking, reading, above all, writing it in communicating effectively.

Not looking to be an ex-pat. I realized that being near family trumps just about everything else for me in living location. It is why I moved where I currently live. I used to think that living overseas would be a fun adventure, but I have found that for me, home is where the family is.

The other issues, ie social isolation, culture shock, assimilation and acculturation, acceptance, away from friends and support group, etc are relative. For some very important, others immaterial.

I don't agree with this at all.

It's not an all-or-nothing state.

Each one of those elements can be more or less important to any given person --- and each one can also vary along the continuum of time.

It's not like you simply say "I can handle these things" as a lump sum, or "I cannot."

Any one of them will have more or less saliency for any given person at any given time.. What's happening in your life at the time? What's happening with your family's lives back home at any given time? What's happening with your friends/family/chosen family/work in your "other" country at any given time. Is travel home easy ? Do you make enough money to do it ? Is there a global pandemic where you are literally forbidden to leave one and/or enter the other ?

And I don't want to make too much of the truly exceptional days of the first at least year of the pandemic. I mainly mean just day in, day out, month in, month out.

It's not a "I can handle it because I speak French" or "I can't handle it."

It's a mixing board where someone else is manipulating a good number of the knobs, way outside your control. and you have a few you can tweak, too.

Moving to another country with the intention to stay in that country “permanently” has different challenges compared to moving to another country with the intention to stay only for a year or two.

In the latter case, you are just a tourist on a very long vacation, and there are not too many challenges to do so. The language barrier is still there, but if you move to an area with enough English speaking locals, you can get by. The distance of family and friends is also not insurmountable if you know you will be back in a determined amount of time.

PS: what is the difference between being an “expat” and an “immigrant”? I’m asking because I had a conversation about the use of these terms with some Mexican expats who were standing at the Home Depot parking lot near my house.

We have a path to becoming expats - or at least trying it out - and that is the plan. We wont do it for awhile - still in full-time working years - but our kids are keen, we have a few American friends already living in there EU, and we have the opportunity (fewer administrative obstacles than most people). I agree that the pull of family is the most important thing, and for now, if we can persuade enough family to come too ;) it's an appealing and reasonably straightforward choice we have so why not.

Robert - indeed, living in a southern border state and working at a bilingual school, I am surrounded by Expats from Mexico and further south

I had to look up online definitions for "expat" and "immigrant" to see whether my instinctive reaction to the words was correct. The internet tells me that:

expat = someone living outside his native country
immigrant = someone who moves to a foreign country to live there permanently

So all immigrants are expats, but all expats aren't immigrants.

Thanks everyone - terrific thread.
I’ve long dreamed of moving to France. But I’ve recently switched my dreams to a middle ground that others have mentioned. I own a house in a large city and still work full time. But as an “early escape plan,” last year I purchased a quasi tiny house in a development of such houses near the mountains of NC. Currently I’m renting it out but plan to make it my U.S. home as soon as I feel financially ready to leave my corporate job. At that point I’ll sell my city house and hope to go abroad for two 3-month trips a year (and rent out the tiny house while I’m gone). If I find that spending 3 months in France makes me want to be there permanently, then I’ll further look into becoming an expat.

Those French and Germans I've known here in SF came here with the intention of staying, they were immigrants and, as such, legally aliens. A few went back after the working life spent here. A few also stayed, (French) because they felt stuck here due to a variety of reasons, things you don't ask about.

The variable issues are relative, to be dealt with in one's own way given the circumstances, depending on the individual and his/her circumstances, and the person's set of values and priorities. A college friend of mine came here at the age of 12, served in the US Army, went to college and grad school in SF, never took out US citizenship. When he turned 65 in 2010, he retired, pulled up stakes, and left here for good to go back to Europe, living in an EU country.

A few talk about just taking longer trips. That works.

But if you have a place that you sort of wish you could make your home, but know it really would not work for you there is a possible compromise. That is, buy a vacation home in Europe and just dance around the Schengen rules.

Remember 90 days a year at $100 a night is $9000 a year in hotels. What if you could offset part or all of that by owning where you stay?

At some point you sell for the appreciated value; and if you are so inclined or clever, you can produce income off it when not using it. But it does open some new cans of worms, but none insurmountable. I just learned as I went.

I started to ponder this a few years ago. I'm still years away from retiring, and no move would happen before then. I was looking at Italy or France, and found the requirements for France more clearly spelled out (as Sammy noted above) and the
1-year residency visa that Bets mentioned. Italy's requirements--as least as far as I could find--were more opaque.

Have been studying the language for the past year, and will continue to do so. Even if I don't move, it helps lubricate my aging neurons :-)

Will be leaving for France next Friday on my first "scouting" mission, looking at small towns around Paris. Will also be making trips West of there, out to Brittany.

For me, I figure the one year test will tell me whether this is for me. As Bets noted, this doesn't have to be forever. I would hope my kids would want to visit, which would help, and technology certainly makes keeping in touch easier than in decades past.

acraven-

Those definitions lace quite a bit of nuance.

Expat definitely includes a suggestion of a temporary stay, whether defined by a job contract or lacking definition, but absent a sense of commitment to the new/second/destination country.

Expat can also suggest a person or croup that chooses to not assimilate, and lives in ghettos (literal or figurative) of those from similar backgrounds.

Expat is also conflated with immigrant in a way that can be classist. For some who emigrate from countries that traditionally see more immigration consider being an “immigrant” beneath them, and thusly reject the appropriate term and co-opt the one they find less objectionable.

My sister, who lives in Italy most of the year, just sent me this. Under the "Practical Tips" drop down, you can find all sorts of information about moving to Italy. www.thelocal.it.

*Expat definitely includes a suggestion of a temporary stay, whether defined by a job contract or lacking definition, but absent a sense of commitment to the new/second/destination country.
Expat can also suggest a person or croup that chooses to not assimilate, and lives in ghettos (literal or figurative) of those from similar backgrounds. "

Pas de tout Scudder. This is your own definition. The definition's what acraven wrote. I'm an expat. I am patriotic to my country of origin but I'm ex--which means "away." I, and the majority of people I know in my French city, who are from the US, are not planning to return to live in the US. We are all expats the same as someone on a temporary job overseas. These French residents who are here permanently have emigrated from the US. They are also immigrants to France. So they are both expats, emigrants and immigrants all rolled into one.
As a dual citizen, I'm difficult to classify. I'm definitely an expat but am I also an emigrant and immigrant when I have lived in both countries?

Let's skip the politics. The OP says for the purpose of this topic we use the Oxford definitiin:

EXPAT
noun
a person who lives outside their native country.
"a British expat who's been living in Amsterdam for 14 years"
adjective
denoting or relating to a person living outside their native country.
"Gregg is an expat Australian"

Language has meaning, even if it’s not what the OP wants or intends it to mean.

We did it in 2015. Some of you will recall I was posted to a position at the US Embassy in Rome back in 2012. That was a three-year tour after which we both retired and chose to stay in Rome. Becoming legal was a hurdle because we had to return to the US to apply for a visa but had already moved into a furnished retirement apartment with our cats and few remaining personal items after leaving our embassy-sponsored digs. So there was a giant amount of paperwork and some agonizing processes to endure, but we got an elective residence visa.

Why? To continue to enjoy our lifestyle and the incredible opportunity to travel throughout Europe and the UK. We stayed 18 months. Loved the healthcare we received as our private insurance offered excellent access to care and there were fewer “layers” between doctor and patient than we have here in the US. (Also, it was far less expensive. My husband’s cardiologist charged €250 for an EKG and an Echocardiogram whereas here the Echo alone is multiple to,e that amount and performed by a technician. )

There are challenges in dealing with systems that are vastly different from those we are accustomed to in US. From renting an apartment (legally) to banking or arranging utilities, many things were quite different and took some getting used to. Rome was marvelous but chaotic. Had we lived somewhere less chaotic we might have stayed longer, but we also wanted to own a home again after almost 5 years abroad and sought the familiarity coming back offered.

Also, taxes need to be considered and expert advice and preparation essential. Italy has a reciprocal agreement with the US but one still has to file in both countries.

Still, I miss the good parts every day. I miss the markets, the amazing restaurants and choices, the car-free lifestyle we enjoyed. A perfect solution (if money were no object) would be a small home or apartment in a favorite spot in Europe and another here in Oregon, plus an Elective Residence Visa so the Schengen rules didn’t get in my way. There would still be taxation trickiness and certainly challenges of owning a home in a different country, and would you ever really feel like you lived either place?

and would you ever really feel like you lived either place?

I do see people who come and go every three months and wonder how they can feel at home.

We could do it for a little while, but eventually we wanted to be invested in one place. We were always missing a wonderful concert, book club, hike, a year-long course, get together with friends. I also noticed that our neighbors invested more time with us once we were full time.

An acquaintance's wife was appointed US ambassador to Switzerland. It was interesting to hear about what that move entailed. This family knew that the were returning home after their president went out of office. Must be a bit of different mindset when you have a prescribed time and a job overseas than when you are just going for it.

I spent 20 years ... unintentionally .... prepping to become an expat. I am down to the last hudle, which is in process, and I still can't say I will go forward with it, or if I do for how long. I have addressed I think every issue raised, but I am certain it is country specific, buy if anyone wants to pick my mind PM.

Received my Residency Visa today. Now what to do with it?

Here's my definition-

Person who moves to a country to settle down and doesn't intend to go back-immigrant. All expats are immigrants and I find it hilarious when expats deny being immigrants. You are so just enjoy it. It reminds me of Keeping Up Appearances and Mrs. Bucket wanted to be called Mrs. Buque because it sounded more upper-class.

As for me, I'm still working and not able to move with my work-skills or lack of money. Id never move to Portugal now as it is the Berlin of the 1990s, more foreigners moving in and taking housing from the locals.

But I also think the US has some things that Europe doesn't. A better dealing of racial issues, a better integration of physical and mental disabled into the school and community. And a wonderful range of landscapes, from snow and mountains to deserts.

Plus our country is still important in the world and that means our votes. Everyone I talked with in Germany/Austria talked about our politics and 2024 and their hopes.

****Received my Residency Visa today. Now what to do with it?

What is a residency visa? Is it the same as a resident permit? How does having this affect your US residency? Sounds like you have come to the fork in the road!

Congratulations! This will make your travel life a lot simpler. Do you need to renew the visa every year?

"...prepping to become an ex-pat." Bravo !

Citizenship in another country? Never. I have no desire to be anything other than an American citizen.
Expat or Immigrant; not really as both imply making another country your principal residence (which in practice is a lot more than where you sleep at night).

What did I get?
I called it a visa, but in fact its a "Residency Permit".

To maintan it I must be in Hungary not less than 90 days in any 180 days. Schengen in reverse; which is good because i can use a Schengen calculator to stay out of trouble. They back dated it to February so I have to catch up fast on the 90 days.

It does not allow me to overstay Schengen in other Schengen countries. I am always to the letter of the law, but with no hard boarders, and as long as one enteres and leaves the EU through the country issuing the permit, I dont see how anyone would know. But I wont.

What did I have to agree to?
Its a three year permit, and to have any hope of getting it renewed at the end of the three years I have to take the Hungarian language lessons i committed to in the application, do the 90 in 180, not break any laws, maintain medical insurance in Hungary. All easy (except actually learning Hungarian).

Why?
Because I have the means and health to travel now and I wanted to get rid of some of the restrictions on time in Europe.
Because I enjoy my time in Budapest a lot and have been pushing the Schengen envelope every year and want to stay out of trouble.
The cost of living in Hungary is 30% to 40% less than in the U.S. which means I can live a little better on less retirement savings.
I have a flat in Budpest so there is no rental cost.
I have a great group of friends in Budapest and elsewhere in Eruope. Spent 20 years building that.

The Plan
I am going to shoot for 7 to 8 months a year in Europe; six in Hungary and 1 or 2 elseware. I will try and do it in 3 separate trips each year.
The number of places I can reach from Budapest on discount airlines is pretty amazing.

Problems in the US
I will need someone to check on the home from time to time
I will need an alternate mailing address and someone to email me anything important
Social Security: not on the payments yet and apparently they will cut you off after you have been out of the country for six consecutive months. Hense three trips a year (not that they would actually know).

Thoughts for the long run
If it doesnt work out, i lost the cost of the permit
If it does work out I just follow the plan
If it works out too well, maybe i get rid of the home and the car, put things in storage and stay at an extended stay hotel and use Uber when back in the US.
I have all the time in the world to decide.

I spent the last 20 years getting situated for this. The first 10 or 15 not intentionally. Otherwise this would not be too wise.

I know how to function in Hungary.
I know the health care system.
i have a support network in Hungary.

Bravo! Wish we could do the same. But the place(s) we would like to stay overseas have almost insurmountable requirements. Oh well, it's after 5 o'clock somewhere so we'll raise a glass to you and dream about doing something similar.

I am going to shoot for 7 to 8 months a year in Europe; six in Hungary and 1 or 2 elseware. I will try and do it in 3 separate trips each year.
This will make your primary residence in Hungary and the US secondary. Don't forget to file both your US and Hungarian taxes.

Social Security: not on the payments yet and apparently they will cut you off after you have been out of the country for six consecutive months. Hense three trips a year (not that they would actually know).
Not true. Social security would send your payment to your Hungarian bank. I know plenty of people who have their payments sent directly to France. There will be a Social Security liaison in the Embassy in Budapest who will be able to help you with your Social Security application, once you are old enough. .

This will make your primary residence in Hungary and the US secondary.
Don't forget to file both your US and Hungarian taxes.

Let me try again, a little more clearly.

I will have some earnings in Hungary from some real estate investments. I have paid Hungarian taxes on that for years. Nothing new.

I “may” end up paying income tax in Hungary on my US Investment earnings and other income. “May” because it’s complicated under Hungarian law.

“Generally,” the IRS allows that the taxes paid to another country on US Earnings can be deducted from your income before US taxes are calculated. But there are a number of caveats.

I have turned it all over to my attorneys, Dewey, Cheatem & Howe, PLLC, to figure out.

I wont worry about Social Security being sent to my Hungarian bank account (yes, I have one); the US account will be fine. I can pretty much live off my Hungarian earnings and my ATM off my US account or wire transfers.

Hank, re friendships: as great as new friends are, you don't have the history with them-you didn't raise your children together or age together.

And we've been trying to get rid of stuff since Covid, have filled two dumpsters and I still look around my house in Birmingham and only see a few empty shelves.

Going234, there are places in the US that have the same problems with people from out of state having more money to spend on houses. Confession: we are those people, but we did live in SC 25 years, so identify as locals.

Relative to what Bets said about living in 2 places-I have found it much more challenging than I expected and i haven't had to deal with culture shock or language differences.

I didn’t write pay taxes, I wrote file taxes. Some people don’t realize that living overseas as a US citizen means you have to file twice even if nothing is owed.

Problems in the US

I will need an alternate mailing address and someone to email me anything important

There are mailbox services that handle this mostly electronically. You log in to see your scanned mail and request that it be opened and scanned, trashed, and/or forwarded. It's said to be quite efficient. (They started long ago as a service to RVers.)

Thoughts for the long run

If it works out too well, maybe I get rid of the home

Capital Gains tax can be a hiccup for this plan. Few countries have a generous waiver on the sale of primary residence like the US, and many countries tax global income. It's worth investigating, to at least know what's coming.

You are correct about the hone. Thank you.

I lived in Asia Pacific for 18 years as an expat, it was mostly fantastic. (That's the short version!) WHY - For adventure & career advancement. And there's a certain 30,000 ft view that comes with being an expat, for good or bad, it removes you somewhat from the daily hassles of your home country. And then the parents started becoming ill, so moved back to the US. Now I'm a Swedish permanent resident having married into a wonderful family. I couldn't imagine moving somewhere without friends, a spouse, a support system & /or speaking the language. Anyway, freedom of movement & being able to spend as much time as I wanted in Sweden, which suddenly became an issue during the pandemic, were the main reasons. What would I miss? Staying in touch is a biggie for me, but people love getting postcards & videos via Instagram or Whatsapp, and calls are easy. Interesting what you said about never getting a second passport, many countries allow dual citizenship, as does the US.
I guess I would ask why NOT pull the cord and do it? You're not giving up US citizenship, you can always move back.

"Problems in the US
I will need someone to check on the home from time to time
I will need an alternate mailing address and someone to email me anything important."

We have wonderful neighbors who take care of our place, and watch it like a hawk as we're so close to each other, it's nice having a 'home' to come back to.
Consider a Postal Annex, 'manned' postal box? Yes, it's expensive ($280 per year). But when asked, they email me a picture of the letter, "Hey I only want to hear if the IRS contacts me", and a neighbor can go pick it up. The service we use won't open mail. Almost everything can be handled on line, but I suppose someday I will miss something important, ah well.

Well thought out plan and good luck on your new adventure. For you it sounds just like an extension of what you have been doing for many years. Let us know how the language lessons go. With friends there, it will help accelerate the language learning.

Utazz tovább.

We've used Traveling Mailbox but will be able to give it up next year. Important mail comes to our overseas home or to a family member.
I keep a US phone number active for two-step ID. An American in Paris told me she keeps a Mint phone at $15 a month. Others use free Google Voice for 2-step. Also some rules for investments are different if primary residence is overseas. Good to check those rules in a private Facebook group.

Congratulations James !!! Very exciting !!!

Thread wear they prefer their good English to my pathetic Hungarian.

I will need someone to check on the home from time to time

If you’re in Europe during the April eclipse I will volunteer to house sit.

As to someone looking after your home, we get a house sitter when we are gone, whether we have pets or not. Very comforting to have someone there should something go wrong and for overall security. One sitter saved us from returning to a house full of carpenter ants. We use https://Www.TrustedHosesitters.com which requires a modest annual membership fee but the sitters do not charge. You just pay your utilities, mortgage, etc.., as usual.

April 8 2024 and the last for 20 years. Ground zero will be about 75 miles NW of my house. No, Tom, I will be home for that. And 14 October of this year an Annular Eclipse will pass right over head.

ANd thank you all for the house sitter ideas.

It's going well enough where I have decided to exchange my US residence for a storage room and put the car up for sale.

I found a little consulting I can do online to occupy my mind and stay in my old business circle; and I am toying with some tourism related work.

The immediate plan is 3 months in Europe, one in the US, and repeat. I arrived in the US on the 4th of July, return to Budapest on the 6th of August and stay through the end of October.

Hungry is well situated for cheap travel so my side trips so far this year have been Luxemburg, Germany, Romania, Malta. I need to watch the time out of Schengen to keep my Residency in good standing.

The cost of living has been about 30% less than the US. But i take half of that and live better. This is a good retirement while it works for me. Because I have been coming to Budapest for many years, and know many people my social life is good. Among my American friends I expect some visits this year and my time home will put me in touch almost as much as before I started this. It's about making the effort.

Still, I can pull the plug any time. But it's a good experiment.

Well, I've been an expat courtesy of Uncle Sam (husband is currently a federal employee of the US Army) for over 12 years, although that's ending in a couple months. To be fair, I didn't want to leave my amazing life in the Bay Area, knowing that leaving meant we couldn't return because we'd lose our rent-controlled apartment, and we thought it would only be 3 years, but here we are, and I wouldn't change the experience for anything, but it IS challenging, even with the amazing benefits you get being supported by the military community which means we don't have to deal with the hassle of visas or the paperwork of living as a "real" expat. The downside is that it's not meant to be permanent, and there can be serious consequences for those who try to skirt the rules (the German government can and will demand German taxes if they think you've violated the terms of our Status of Forces Status, usually triggered by marrying an EU citizen or buying property here if you've been here longer than 7 years). The military does not help you out if this happens to you, which is the primary reason we're "happy" to go back to the US, for now.

Our plan is to return, though, still working for the government after we've reset our time after a few years and ideally I'd like to retire in Europe, but that's a much more difficult process and there are drawbacks. The easier countries to live in tend to have dark, awful winters, and the countries with better weather can be challenging to settle long term due to bureaucracy and corruption. And the language is always an issue - I never did become fluent in German because I always assumed we'd be returning to the US shortly and I honestly am not great at languages in general but especially not this one! But living somewhere a romance language was spoken would make fluency far more realistic, and I think it's really a must to fully enjoy living abroad. Outside of very large international cities there's not a lot of cultural life if you can't understand the language well.

We're moving to Omaha which is about as far as you can get culturally from Europe, but even being able to enjoy local theater, poetry slams, BOOKSTORES, the fact that there are 3, count 'em 3 synagogues even in Omaha - these are things that will be really nice to experience for a while. I think a lot of people underestimate how alienating being a foreigner can be, even when the quality of life in much of Europe is so fantastic and the reason I'd like to probably ultimately settle here.

I will say, if you want to be an expat, the most important thing is you have to be willing to be an other - pretty much forever, unless you move to another immigrant nation like Canada or Australia. And you have to be willing to look like an idiot, every day, all the time. It's not at all like being a tourist and the novelty does wear off. But man, the public transit and quality of life can make up the difference!

Sarah, I don't expect anyone to read all the posts, seriously. You are correct on all points. What you missed is I have been working into this slowly over 20 years. Which is how I know you are correct. And still working in slowly as I will start out 3 months in Hungary, 1 in the US, repeat. Then we see how it works and if the Hungarian time gets longer or shorter or I just park in one or the other. I can't imagine just deciding one day and doing it all in.

Mister É, I should clarify that I was sharing my general experience, not so much directly responding to your plans. Figuring so many in the thread were talking/dreaming about it that I'd just throw in my 2 cents!

I think a lot of people underestimate how alienating being a foreigner can be, even when the quality of life in much of Europe is so fantastic and the reason I'd like to probably ultimately settle here.
I will say, if you want to be an expat, the most important thing is you have to be willing to be an other - pretty much forever, unless you move to another immigrant nation like Canada or Australia. And you have to be willing to look like an idiot, every day, all the time. It's not at all like being a tourist and the novelty does wear off. But man, the public transit and quality of life can make up the difference!

Spot on, Sarah.

James, I am glad that this evolution is working well for you.

Sarah, congratulations and good luck for your upcoming move !

Moving to Europe, in particular Italy, has been on our radar since our first trip there in 2011. But, as many have said here, visiting a place is not the same as living there. Still, my biggest concern is money. We live a simple, comfortable life here in Maine because we have no debt and own our home and can afford to live off social security for that reason. We could likely qualify financially, thanks to additional resources, to move to certain areas of Europe, but what happens if it doesn't work out, and we want or need to return to the U.S? Therein lies the rub for me. Frankly, given the U.S. cost of living, especially housing, we could not afford to come back, assuming we sold our current home. At 71, I have to ask myself if that's a chance I'm willing to take. Maybe not. So, I will be content to travel when I can and consider myself incredibly fortunate to be able to do so. My congratulations and respect to anyone fulfilling their particular dream.

I lived in Germany for about 3 years when I was a child because my father was in the military. We traveled around quite a bit and those are some of the happiest times of my childhood. I didn't get back to Europe until 2018 but I fell back in love with it. I am working on figuring out how to move over there, and will likely start by living there for two or three months. Just not 100% sure where yet. Portugal seems to be the best launching pad.

Sarah, your two cents is much more valuable. Thank you.

My wife and I have thought about an extended stay in Europe, possibly rural France (Bretagne) or Croatia or Germany (east).

Limits: Mother who lives with us (96)
New grandbaby

However, one of the main limits is that unless your language skills are pretty good, you will never understand a joke in that new country.

Jill M: That "lived in Germany as a child" is part of my story as well. We lived in Frankfurt 57-62. So, when I go to Germany and go to a backerei-conditerei, I feel like a kid again. Plus my German is OK, although my vocabulary is terrible. We also have relatives and friends there.

Speaking the language flutenly wont help with a lot of the jokes (most?) because most humor has a cultural context that is more important that the language being used.

Don't worry. Once you know the language well enough to understand a joke, you also know the cultural context. But little slip ups still happen, even after fifty years of language and culture.

In Feb 2017, my husband and I decided to retire in 2018 and move to a foreign country with our chocolate lab. Italy and Costa Rica were to on the top of the list. We booked a QM2 voyage from NY to England for July 2018. We also booked flights to CR for Jan, 2018 to find a place to live.

After 6 months of much research on both countries, we decided the infrastructure of Costa Rica was not suitable for a large dog.

So in August 2017, started a very detailed “to do list” of everything we had to do in the next 9 months from visa requirements and appointment, requirements and logistics to get to and on QM2. Than our house and belongings. We didn’t know if our time in Italy would be permanent or for several years. And also knew if we sold our home in California, we might not be able to afford another in the future. We decided to rent our house using a property manager.
In April 2018 we flew to Italy to find our town and apartment to rent. (Visa requirement)
In May 2018, we put our stuff in storage and started our 2 1/2 month road trip across the country. Boarded the QM2 mid July, arrived in Verbania Italy on August 3.

We had a fabulous time with our many trips around Europe and Italy, all with our dog, mostly by train. We lived in the beginning of the pandemic in Italy with strict lockdown, had my appendix out, and saw parts of Italy crowd free summer of 2020.

By then, we were ready to come back home. Our renters moved out after their lease ended and we moved back in. We absolutely loved our 2 1/2 years living in Italy and saw more of Europe than we would have living in the uS and going on vacations.

We now travel the US in our camper van with Barley. Just got home from a 68 day 11000 mile trip to New England.

Lots of research and planning, living abroad is possible, not just a dream.

Bets, I am sitting in a bar in my US hometown and don't understand the language. And if you were out with my circle, unless you were between 50 and 70 and grew up in a "certain culture" more than half the jokes would go right past you. Even if you did understand the dialect.