European Summer Trip

Graham.. first off , and this is important. Two nights in any place equal only one full day of sightseeing. So ,, you basically have a list of places you figure are only worth one day!!!??? I would edit some out then.. obviously they are not that important.

Secondly.. you have not seemed to take in account travel time. You can't just beam from one place to the next( sometimes that would be nice though!) .. so basically count on any move taking at least 1/2 a day.. checking out of hotel/hostel, getting to train or airport, then arriving at new destination , finding next accomadation, checking in.. ok,, half day there gone,, minimally.. really.

You basically have a great tour of train stations.

I get you are young and feel up to an aggressive tour.. but I can tell you .. you will barely remember some of these places next year as it will be a bit of a blur "was it Prague where we saw the...?" "no I think it was Budapest"..

I would put more three night stops in there.. some of those places are worth two full days don't you think?

BTW if costs a concern Copenhagen and Stockholm are out of the way and expensive destinations..

Also I would take out Zurich and put in Munich.. way more fun for young folks ( at least when I was 23 I thought so)

Too many big cities.

what do you mean by "days"? If you say 2 days, do you mean 2 nights or 3 nights?

where are you accounting for travel and relocation time?

let me remind you that a group moves at the speed of the slowest person... you will know who that will be. if anybody needs the toilet everybody waits. if somebody wants a snack, everybody waits.

best if you will be so ambitious to set ground rules before you leave home.

BTW - why 4 days in Zurich? Is there something there to draw you for 4 days. You will be nowhere near the Alps if that's why you are going to Switzerland.

OK, so you have the wish list, which I'm assuming in a group of 6, involved quite a bit of back and forth compromise. Well, now time to figure out the logistics of moving between all those places. I think you will find at least two things. 1. Traveling between these destinations takes quite a bit more time and energy than you might suppose. 2. Once you see how long it will take and how expensive it is, you'll probably end up cutting quite a bit. For example, Zürich to Innsbruck is a 3.5 train ride. Once you add up all the other steps that go along with changing locations, you're looking at 5-6 hours total. Innsbruck to Venice- probably close to an 8 hour day of transit.

Some of your steps will only be possible flying, like Barcelona to Zürich, Prague to Copenhagen and Stockholm to Amsterdam. Unless you're made of money, you would probably need to rely on low-cost carriers, which often only fly to very remote airports that just barely qualify for the supposed destination city. Add even more time on top of the flight to get to and from these airports.

Thanks for the help so far guys. Just want to clear up a few things. We are staying at least 2 full days, which means 3 nights, in all of the cities. We're making a lot of use of the night trains as well. We're going to Zurich for 4 days because we have friends that live there. I'm curious as to which of the Eastern European cities you feel we could eliminate, if any. We've looked over the train times for the trip so far and everything works out very nicely!

I should mention that we are using a 2 month Eurail Global Pass. I have a large excel document with all the trip information in it. If any of you are willing to take a look at that, I'm more than willing to send it!

Nothing adds up. You said two months (sixty days). You listed forty-seven days. If you add a night to each one, that's sixty-four. What's up?

There's places in there that's going to take every bit of daylight to get from one to the other, not simple half days.

Judging by your allocation of days, you haven't studied up enough to appreciate what's in each place:

two days for Innsbruck, four for Zurich, five for Madrid, three for Tangiers - - those are probably all too much

two days each for Prague, Budapest, Copenhagen, Vienna - - you won't scratch the surface

By the end of the first week, what you saw that week will be all jumbled together in your mind and you'll never sort it out.

Night trains? Holy cow, somebody will have to take the time to spell out the pitfalls, but that's a novice approach that people only try once.

I don't need a spreadsheet. I've been to all those places bunches of times. The picture is in my head and it's making it hurt.

With all the tact that I can muster.........the idea is nutty. I accidently went all the way around the ball last year in a couple of weeks, but at least I knew what each stop was about before I got there.

Night trains.. and reservations.. extra fees.. have you looked into it really? And many of your trips are simply not night train trips.

I have to add: Groups of six people are rarely nimble travelers. Every change of venue will entail many small logistical steps. You'll have a better trip if you do not have so many of them.

2 months is terrific and you should make the most of it. I have three suggestions. You should vary the pace a bit more, and also leaven the urban itinerary with some countryside. Especially in the summer.

In terms of pace, it's all go go go. For goodness sakes, rent a house for a whole week someplace interesting halfway through your trip and slow down for a spell. You could have a fantastic time for a week in Provence or Tuscany, and believe me a break from the sprint will be welcome at that point in your trip.

Finally, make a plan to split up once or twice. Think of it: you all go separate ways for a week, then meet at a famous fountain or cafe at an agreed-upon time to swap stories. It will be a much richer experience than the 2 month in harness you are contemplating.

The only bright side I can see about night trains with 6 travelers is that many night trains have sleeping cabins for 6. So at least on some of them maybe you will not be sleeping with strangers...that is if you can reserve an entire cabin just for yourselves...not easy to do even with planning ahead. Night trains are not as pleasant or convenient as you might expect. Some of the cities on your list are not very far apart so a night train is not a possibility. Some that are far apart don't have direct trains...you would have to change trains in the middle of the night. Don't expect to really get a good night's sleep. Maybe try it for one or two legs of the trip but don't rely on a night train as your "hotel" - it can be very uncomfortable, loud, and stuffy.
I really do think that you are trying to do too much. We have gone to Europe for months at a time as you are planning to do. Moving as much as you are, you will be exhausted by the time you get to Switzerland. Don't underestimate the heat in the parts of Europe you are visiting first. Try to condense by geographical area and take day trips, eliminating some of the more far-flung places and saving those for another time. Just my two cents from years of experience going to Europe for long stretches....

graham we are not trying to discourage you .. although it may seem that way.. and don't forget many of us were young and did the Europe for a few months thing ourselves ( I did three months back in 80s when I was 23 , with my friend ).
We did a lot of travelling too.. but really did get run down at some point. .we did sort of a loop from Paris south to and thru Italy up through Germany, Switzerland, Austria then Netherlands back to France.. then thank goodness.. we grabbed a flight and hit the Greek islands for two wonderful restful weeks. Beach days and party nights.. not alot of sightseeing, but we needed a break after over 2 months of go go go..

I found the places we spent only a day or two in.. well , blur memories.. So really ,, maybe build in a few more 3-4 days stops,, ( its ok to do some short stops though.. personally we only did Venice for 2 days and that was enough for us,,its $$$ )

You seem to have some places you could take out.. like Naples.. why.. lol And still not getting the northern cities attraction they are so expensive and remote!

OK, someone hit upon the folly of relying on night trains as time savers (they're not, because you don't get any sleep and you need to rest when you reach your destination). Now, can someone comment further on the folly of the Global pass?

Trust us, we've been there, and we've tried similar trips in our youth. There's much better ways to explore Europe.

Didn't want to say anything about pass as I think they already bought them.. so no point..

I have to agree with a lot of the comments. Here are a few suggestions:

Drop Lisbon - just because the bus connections to Spain are lousy and the rides are long - no train. Madrid is a big city with lots of museums. If you want to see more of Spain, spend a couple of nights in Madrid, then Cordoba, Seville, Jerez, Ronda, lots of places in Andalusia that are more interesting. Or start in Seville, and then go to Madrid, since you will go through Madrid to Barcelona.

Drop Tangiers - when I went to Spain, I did some research. It's not Morocco, just a tourist town. You won't have enough time to see much of the country, save it for a another time.

It would help a lot if you'd put your destinations in geographical order - either a straight line or a loop. You guys are young, you'll be back. Plan to go to about half as many city destinations and add surrounding places. For example, instead of sampling Scandanavia, think about Berlin, Munich, Salzburg, Dresden which are closer. I would also help if you'd tell us what your group;'s main interests are - nature, adventure, art museums, nightlife, food, churches, history, culture??

Have you been to the Lonely Planet travel forums (Thorntree)? They are more geared to backpacking 20- and 30-somethings.

Graham,

Some people here have assumed that you are young - are they right?

Have any of the group got experience with night trains in Europe?

Another person made an assumption that you already have purchased the Global Passes. Is that right?

We want the 6 of you to have a great time, so it is important that we have the whole picture.

I don't want to look through a spreadsheet but what it says may be of interest to others here.

You will be aware that night trains often have 3 levels of "comfort", full sleepers, couchettes, and upright seats. Which level did you contemplate?

If six of you put together an itinerary it probably redlects everyone's wish list; if that's true, perhaps you could split up for a week partway through if there are places that omly one or two of you want to visit (I get the feeling there's at least one Viking in your group). A little time apart makes good friendships better.

Personally I think you might like Naples, the Amalfi coast, Vesuvius, Pompeii. And it's much less expensive than most other places on your list.

You have 13 countries. For this trip, why not have each of you pick one country (60 days, 6 people = ten days in each of six countries). Then you could all decide on what to do in each country. No one will feel left out, you'll have time to see more Europe, fewer train stations. And you can do another similar trip another time.

Your itinerary will create a lot of memories focused upon transportation experiences.
Your itinerary will create the opportunity for dis-harmony within your group.
Please plan from the perspective, "I shall make return trips to Europe."
Prior posts provide excellent guidance, please listen to them.
My two bits on destinations:
Spain = seville, granada, madrid, barcelona = 15 days provides 4 distinctly different experiences
Italy = cinque terre, rome, florence, venice = 15 days provides 4 distinctly different experiences
Vienna, budapest, prague = 12 days
Berlin, munich, innsbruck = 12 days
Paris = 5 days

This means 15 different places to rest your head and a well rounded journey to experience diverse cultures, geography, beer/wine and people.

Slow down and create better memories.

Hi,

On your acclerated itinerary I agree with dropping Lisbon and would suggest also dropping Copenhagen and Stockholm, since I assume you're traveling by rail. The time saved by omitting these two places I would add to either Vienna or Paris. You can go from Prague to Amsterdam by night. Take the northern route from Prague, that way you go by train instead of by a DB bus, if you prefer a train. For that I myself would do this: take the direct EC train Prague to Berlin Hbf., then the CNL Berlin to Amsterdam.

If you decide to drop Amsterdam as well, you can go Prague to Paris via Frankfurt, or with the night train option, go to Prague to Berlin, then CNL Berlin-Paris. The other option is to fly, if you're not adverse to intra-European flights, all factors considered.

I think Zoe's suggestion is brilliant!! Each of you pick one country and spend 10 days in each of the 6 and only change locations twice, if at all, for each country. You will have such a better time. My 24 yr old son who has traveled all over Europe 7 times loves it all but Paris, Berlin, Ibiza, Amalfi Coast, Swiss Alps (Berner Oberland) are his top favorites. He went paragliding in the Swiss Alps which was a major highlight.

Wanted to add... if by any chance you do go para-gliding... take a GoPro!

I also think that you picked too many destinations and all of them are big cities. I noticed that many Americans (especially those who never have been to Europe or only with an organized group), don't realize you don't have to book everything from US. I only book flight to my first destination and hotel there and flight back from my last destination. Everything else is more or less flexible. While there you can learn about some interesting festival nearby or from locals about some places which are not even in guide books then if you have everything booked, you are sorry because "If it's Tuesday it must be Belgium". If I travel by car most of the time I even don't bother to book hotel ahead. Simply stop where I like it. For travel by public transportation I use I pad to book a hotel about couple days ahead. It's your vacation to enjoy, not to feel that next day you must go to Copenhagen when you would rather stay little longer in Prague because of the excellent and cheap beer and pretty girls. Or you would prefer rest on a beach at the seashore or lakeshore and maybe some hiking in the mountains far from hassle of a big city. If I were you I would drop cities which are too far on the edges like: Lisbon, Tangiers, Madrid, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Stockholm. Instead of Zurich much more attractive Luzern. Fly to Amsterdam then by train Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Venice, Rome, Naples, fly back from Paris. I found out that I learn about many more interesting places while being in Europe than if I just use guidebooks and Internet here. Then you would be glad to have some spare time for improvisation.

Welcome grahamlittle,

Just some comments.

Have you all considered what its going to be like joined at the hip for 2 months? Not being able to have some Me time? It can be a drag. You get to find out all of the others bad habits.

Also, if it was me, i would be planning in some DOWN time. At least where everyone can sleep in or just chill and i would do that at least once a week. that way nerves wont be frayed and you wont get on each other. maybe even plan on spending time (am or pm) away from each other.

happy trails.

I agree with George...for 6 people, booking as you go is a really bad idea. My husband and I used to do this all the time when it was just the two of us and our backpacks, and it ate up a great deal of time and could be very stressful, especially in the height of the summer season. Often we would get stuck, sleeping in some dodgy place or we wouldn't be able to find anywhere at all and would end up needing to go into the next town or worse, sleep in the train station (which you can't do anymore!). Once we rolled into Edinburgh during the summer festival without a reservation and found a barkeep who let us sleep on a couch in the back of the bar. Another time, our Italian train caught fire and we missed the last vaparetto to the Lido in Venice where we wanted to stay...ended up at a very posh hotel in an old palazzo but paid $$$$ dearly - amazing night but big waste of money. Ah, the days of backpacking Europe without a clue...great memories but I wouldn't do it again! Make your reservations ahead of time.

I agree that a summer time trip with 6 people is not the time to wing it. Maybe for a solo traveler or two people, but absolutely not 6 people!

I can see that some contributors had less luck than I while improvising without booking too much ahead. But what works for one person not necessarily will work for another. Once we did Greece including islands without booking anything (including ferry). No problem for ten days. But we were only two. Once it was five of us but we had a car. For three weeks we traveled without booking ahead, no problem whatsoever. If I have some suspicion that things could go not smoothly I book few days ahead via I pad. I cannot imagine that I would be booking all hotels for two months ahead from the US. Some people are even booking trains from here. With few exceptions (where you can save money) it's not necessary.