European dishwashers

My guess is the Eco setting takes longer because it uses less water, or maybe a lower temperature, so it takes longer to get the dishes clean.

Few things make me feel less intelligent than trying to figure out washing machines and dish washers in Europe. I'm just always grateful when I don't flood the floor:)

I had to replace my dishwasher here in the US a couple of years ago. The "Normal" cycle on the new one--which isn't a fancy European model--takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r, though I don't think it's more than 3 hours.

Eco setting takes longer because the dishwasher does not run the whole time. If fires up, soaks all the dishes, then sets for awhile while the soaking works on loosing the dirt (same theory with washing machines), then it soaks them again and waits. And again, and again. Less water is used because you are not using a lot of hot water to blast the dirt away. Also at the end of the cycle there is no heated drying. It works pretty well. What is the big deal? Let it run over night. That is what we do.

New HE washing machines are the same way, in order to make up for using less water they seem to slosh the clothes around FOREVER. So we end up using the speed wash most of the time.

Now that dishwashers are quiet, it's usually recommended to just have them run while you're sleeping.

I always remember being economical, energy conscious, etc., is always best for the other guys to do it. So I don't have to.

Clean clothes are worth the time to figure out the washer, dishes can be washed in the sink ;-)

Our hotel in Finland had a gratis clothes washing machine. The cleaning cycle was long in comparison to North American washers. Someone explained that the washer has a built in water heater to heat cold water. Apparently on-demand heating is more efficient that a remote hot water tank. Heating water and having it sit in a tank until your washer needs hot water is inefficient in that energy is loss because the tank can not be perfectly insulated against energy loss.

Been in the home appliance industry for over 20 years. For washing machines and dishwashers, the manufacturers must take into account the energy needed to heat whatever water goes into the machine. The manufacturers covet energy savings they can advertise, such as the EnergyStar rating the US government hands out. So, for washers, we now sometimes see Eco settings that only use cold water--even if the water temperature switch is set to warm or hot. Dishwashers are plumbed directly to the hot water in your home, so that particular trick can't affect them. Here, the manufacturers rely on little baby motors that don't use much energy--think of the difference between an old American V-8 and and gas-sipping 4-cylinder engine from a newer car. This is how they can run so long--and they do run much longer than they used to--and still save energy. As far as heaters in dishwashers, some brands have gotten rid of them, but most have just reduced their power drastically--under 600 watts is now common--again, to save energy. And, yes, some customers (justifiably) are annoyed by these new "features."

Thanks for the explanations. I understand it now! And it is nice that it is so quiet.

Fortunately the owners provided a notebook with all the appliance manuals so we can figure things out. Now to tackle the combination oven/microwave. . .

Hot water here in the UK and in Europe is far far too expensive to plumb into dishwashers. It is much cheaper to heat the water needed inside the machine in an inline heater.

I'm hours away from receiving a new dishwasher to replace my 15 year old Bosch (by the same gang who make the Siemens) with a brand new, top of the line, .... Bosch again.

The fast programme uses nearly 40 percent more than the eco programme.

The other thing that these new machines do is look at the water during the cycle and determine how dirty it is and adjust along the way. Sometimes it will shorten the time by up to half an hour.

Washing machines and dishwashers used to have hot and cold fill - but as the washing temperatures have reduced hot fill has largely gone. The number of machines still generally available with it could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

My dishwasher is 21 years old and takes an hour. Does a fantastic job too. Washer takes an hour. Both are German makes and heat the water as needed. No complaints.

I have to wonder how effective that system is.

I rather suspect that those European appliances that heat cold water only use electricity. My clothes washer and dish washer do. In fact my dish washer has an electric heating element in the tub to heat the water if it is not hot enough.

On the other hand, my water heater uses gas. According to my utility bill, a BTU of energy cost 4 times as much from electricity as from gas. I don't think my water heater is only 25% efficient. It's well insulated and the outside feels just barely warm to the touch. What's more, it's located in the center of the house, so, in the winter, any convective loss heats the house, so there is no loss.

In an all electric house, heating cold water for the clothes and dish washer would make sense, but I'm not sure about house with gas to heat the water.

How many house in Europe have gas? Only if most houses are all electric does it make sense.

But I do like the soak cycle. European used to shower that way. Turn on the water, get wet, turn off the water, soap your wet body, turn on the water, rinse, turn off the water. They thought our showers, standing under a constant spray, were terribly wasteful.

Most houses around me have both gas and electric. Gas powers the hob - the stove - and the hot water and to heat the hot water in the radiators to heat the house. Electric does everything else.

I have a storage tank for the hot water used in the sinks and showers. It is - like most here - on a timer and I only run it for 45 minutes at 4 am and another half hour at 3 pm.

It would be wasteful to heat a whole house of hot water all day and all night on the off chance that I would want to run the dishwasher and need 10 litres (around 2 and a half US gallons) of hot water.

Then there is the question of how hot is that water from the tank in the middle of the house?

If you have to mix it with cold water to have the right temperature you have wasted the marginal energy to heat it.

Then, why do you need it very hot for most runs?

Many Europeans have learned to benefit from the advances in detergents and cleaning products, and the smart systems in appliances.

My new dishwasher (my wife loves it even though the 15 year old one that just got recycled was similar) has 9 cycles at (all celcius, two numbers are for wash/rinse, one is the same throughout):

65/75, 45/65, 60, 50, 35/45, 40, 45, 45, cold.

The only way to be that precise is to have the in-line heat exchanger. The heating element under the filter is old technology, a heat exchanger is more efficient. Even though the default eco cycle takes 3:15 hours it only uses 0.80 kWh and 9.5 litres of water.

I hear what you're saying Lee, but I'd have trouble with that wastage even using gas to heat your hot water.

This would qualify as a "what habits did you bring home from Europe" thread. Every summer we live in someone's home in Europe for several weeks and use their dishwasher, washer and dryer--when they have one which isn't often. When we've bought new appliances for our home we've selected ones that have a lot of these energy saving features that seem to incongruously take longer. Our fantastic to operate dishwasher is a Miele. Our new HE washer has these really long soaking cycles that love and trust to get our clothes clean using a lot less water. After 20+ years of using European appliances during the summer I really appreciate the engineering effort that has gone into the use of less water and electricity where costs are so high.