Europe with kids and fear

Do you think comments from a lot of people you don't know will sway you one way or another? If I were in your predicament I might be inclined to read what Rick Steves or what other well vetted individuals have to say, but I wouldn't give much credence to a forum full of strangers.

Bottom line for you is that its your holiday and holidays are generally for the intent of enjoyments. If you are going to be nervous then you really should do something else.

Having said all of that. I have a child who just went off to school in Germany. She is mature and level headed so I only made the following suggestions, and having made them I am not particularly worried about her.

Don't look Jewish. The frequency of violence against Jews most of Europe far outnumbers anything the terrorists have done (just doesn't make the news as often).
Have a heightened awareness at Jewish monuments, sights, etc.
Have a heightened awareness in large gatherings of people (mostly because of street crimes)
Have a heightened awareness where migrants might be gathering
Don't use my credit card.

Otherwise I am good with it. I will also plug the idea that there are parts of Europe that have not experienced any terrorism and because of their border controls or the fact that they are off the immigrant route or are not attractive settlement countries for the migrants, will probably have a much, much lower risk of ever suffering from terrorism. But there are no certainties in life. Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, etc. I leave for Hungary in the morning.

This has been a highly debated topic on this forum. If I was on a computer, I would post the link. The general consensus seems to be, you have to do what you feel comfortable with. Everyone has a different opinion and a different comfort zone. I personally feel more comfortable in Europe than here in US.

I guess I am trying to decide if I should wait several years until the
security gets ramped up

The thing is, security IS "ramped up" and has been so for a long time. I've never seen the amount of police presence anywhere in the U.S. like we're seen in Europe. Millions - locals and tourists alike - take the trains every single day without incident, and they take their kids too. Yes, some additional security measures have been added of late for certain rail lines/stations but I don't know as I expect things to become any 'safer' in the next year, two years, five years, etc.

No one can tell you that anyone, anywhere, anytime is 100% safe from some sort of incident, and that applies to our country as well as abroad. Sometimes it helps put things in perspective when you think of Europe as a place where people just like us go to work, go to school, go to the store, raise families and pretty much do all the same things we do? They just do it in different languages, observe some different customs and little bit different lifestyles. They have their own varieties of worries, too, but if they don't feel like they need to huddle at home, then neither should I?

But you are the only judge of your own comfort level, and it's not up to us to tell you how you should feel. It is what it is. The only advice we might give you is to shelve the trip if constant worry is going to spoil it?

I take your issue seriously, but strongly advise not giving counsel to your fears.

I have a friend, who also is a Texan, who lived in Portugal for two years with a family of three girls ages 10, 13 and 16. Upon their return to the USA they arrived in NYC in time for the 4th of July holiday and they chose NOT to go outside their hotel to watch the fireworks out of concern it would be the "perfect time" for a terrorist attack. I shake my head at the logic, more out of concern for the adverse imprint left on their girls by choosing to give in to fear and not take a "risk".

I am the father of daughters, and also a Texan, who has traveled with our family before and after 9/11. The world is a different place and IT SHALL CONTINUE TO CHANGE, but where do you allow fear to become a boundary to how you choose to live?

We travel mostly by train so are attuned to your concerns about "train terrorism targeting", but do not share the belief train travel represents a higher risk.

I have an absolute conviction which has been proven by our daughter's beliefs; we are a better family for having taken the risks of travel and our girls are far more prepared for understanding cultural differences as a result of their travels.

I hope you take advantage of the travel opportunities and create wonderful memories of journeys with your family.

I wish you Safe Travels!

Why not just fly, rent a car, and spend the trip in the countryside? This would get you to Europe (which is important to you), gets you off trains (where you feel vulnerable) and avoids places that are higher profile.

I can tell you that while hanging out in a farmhouse B&B outside of Amboise with my family last summer we felt so incredibly safe that we felt like weirdos when we locked the doors.

I live in Vienna, I have kids and I'm originally from the US. I put my kids on the train and subway everyday by themselves to get to school. I worry about their safety much more when we are at home in the US.

All that said, you seem exceptionally anxious and nothing we say here is likely to change that. If you choose to live in fear, then you'll never leave the house.

it seems like no one, especially the government can (or chooses not to) do anything about it.

I think your fear stems partly from this assumption, which I think is frankly wrong. I don't know who you mean by "no one" (are you including public citizens?) or "the government" (which government?), but it's on every affected/potentially affected government's radar screen and they are not intentionally ignoring it..nor are they completely impotent. Random/ seemingly random acts of violence are very hard to predict ahead of time, communications/ intelligence sharing/ coordination is flawed despite best intentions (people and systems are flawed and perfection doesn't exist), there are always a host of constraints to better intelligence gathering, many would-be attackers have no prior record, and yet governments already thwart threats that you don't even know or hear about and will never know about. Stop and think about if you had to design measures to improve security while protecting civil liberties, and then you may appreciate how difficult it is and how other countries, like France, struggle with it. It's very complicated and requires a lot of trade-offs that are difficult to live with (e.g. France is still under a state of emergency which gives the government a lot of powers to search people - this is not without controversy).

My entire extended family lives in Europe, including small children, and they are going about their daily lives just like anyone else. They continue to travel on their vacation breaks. They are in Europe all year round, while tourist exposure is very minimal (maybe once a year or every couple of years). If you are as terrified as it appears, then perhaps it's wise not to travel to Europe. There's no magic bullet. You either live with uncertainty and take it in stride or you limit activities that cause you stress and worry. There's nothing wrong with foregoing discretionary travel if it causes such negative reactions; better to travel when you're excited, optimistic and looking forward to your adventure.

As James E mentioned in the first reply, are your travel plans likely going to be swayed by a bunch of people you've never met on a travel forum? However since you asked the question, I'll add a few comments.

As I'm sure you've already considered, the statistical probability of being involved in a terrorist attack in Europe is extremely low, and as you stated you're more statistically likely to be involved in random acts of violence in your home area. There are never any guarantees of absolute safety, even when we travel in our home countries. No one can predict how the present security risks are going to evolve in future, so I expect the status quo will exist for some time. I don't think the evil-doers that want to harm us are going to disappear anytime soon.

If I were in the same situation, I'd still travel with children but would exercise the same types of cautions that James mentioned - avoid large crowds or demonstrations, be "situationally aware" of those around you, etc. I don't believe you'll have any problems visiting Paris as enhanced security measures are in place there, and those will likely remain for some time. You may find it helpful to have a look at the U.S. State Dept. cautions regarding France. Choosing destinations that may be a bit "safer" such as Switzerland, Italy, or places in eastern Europe should also reduce the risk slightly.

Of course, you'll still need to be vigilant to avoid the pickpockets and other scammers that operate in prime tourist spots in Europe. One other thing to consider is that you only have "window" of a few years to travel with your children. It would be a shame to miss the opportunity for the wonderful lifetime memories that would come with a (hopefully safe) trip to Europe.

Good luck with your decision!

"There's nothing wrong with foregoing discretionary travel if it causes such negative reactions; better to travel when you're excited, optimistic and looking forward to your adventure."
Agnes has nailed it.

"If you choose to live in fear, then you'll never leave the house."
IMO fears aren't a choice at all. I have a fear of dogs that isn't rational. My only "choice" is not to have dogs around me - to the extent that's possible - which reduces my anxiety. But by no means do I cower in my bedroom closet all day. If the OP just going to be fearful in Europe under current circumstances, it makes perfect sense to shed the fears and to avoid travel there, or to avoid trains or whatever the culprit is.

If I KNOW a certain fair is irrational, I sometimes can whip it. I'm not afraid of train travel at all despite the one publicized incident on the way to Paris... Cruise boats, however, seem much more vulnerable, maybe because there are so few cruise boats and so many trains... for me, it's mostly irrational to fear trains - the chances of an attack seem incredibly small. Yet I have to confess some fears about cruise boats. If I were taking a Mediterranean cruise right now, I'd really be doing some heavy talking to myself.

I do not feel the fear when it comes to Europe for some reason. But IMO it's not an irrational fear at all. Everything is in flux. We don't KNOW enough about the actual threat to be rational about it. But what I read raises my eyebrows. Recent attacks were a huge surprise to all. German fears have risen measurably after the NYE attacks around the country. This girl and an increasing number of Germans themselves are expressing fears about the threat from 1 million plus newcomers (even though such thoughts are verboten by the mostly PC society.) Since October, the % of Germans who fear increased criminality because of increased immigration has risen from 62% to 70% (ZDF Poll) And now Europol says groups within Europe now pose a threat similar to and more threatening than those in Paris.

I completely respect people's travel choices under the circumstances. The mathematical risks are still probably VERY small, but most of us probably need a little more than rosy numbers to dash certain fears.

I can quote statistics about terrorist attacks and other dangers, but hearing statistics will not change your anxiety. People will advise you to do what's comfortable for you -- we each have a different tolerance for risk. I don't have children yet, but one is on the way and my wife and I have already talked about how wonderful it will be to take him with us to Europe and other places when he's older. In our minds, the risk of terrorism is small and doesn't outweigh the potential experiences our son will have.

However, in your mind, the risk is real and does outweigh the experience. You have acknowledged that the idea on the one hand seems "ridiculous" but on the other is "very very real." Because of that statement, I would advise you to mention this to your doctor or someone who deals with anxiety issues, especially if you have dealt with this thought for a long time. A professional will be much more suited to assess your situation than a bunch of strangers on the Internet. Maybe nothing is wrong, but maybe there is something that could be done. Some in my family have had untreated anxiety (including travel anxiety) and they've made eerily similar statements. Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but do consider mentioning it to a professional if the fear is constant and if it prevents you from doing things that your logical brain says is safe.

Rent a car, take local trains, or stay home until you feel more optimistic. Going to Europe is not a duty, it should feel like fun,

Deutsche Welle reports over 1,000 known attacks on refugee residences in 2015. The refugees may be in much more danger than any other group, including tourists. If you get a chance, show a little kindness.

Well done Russ.

Mikes post is also very good.

I am so pro travel( my 19 yr old is going backpacking for 2 months this spring and i am thrilled),,,but i do beleive it might be better for you to postpone your trip, not because if the danger though, but because your fears may affect everyones enjoyment of trip, and color your childrens perspective of travel and that would be such a shame.

I've got a baad feeling about this. There may be some force in the universe trying to tell you something.

13.286 people were killed by firearms in the USA in 2015. That is a staggering figure and one that is really difficult to comprehend. You have touched on the situation with guns in the US. Can you imagine the shock, horror and outcry if that many people were killed by terrorist activities in a year.
Since 9/11 as someone has already pointed out, the world has changed for ever. Only you know what your level of fear is and how it will impact on your holiday. Don't let the bar.....ds win!

With new competition keeping airfares low across the Pacific, and an exchange rate in your favour, I could suggest Australia as a safe alternative destination, as we have not suffered from any major terrorist attack. However, you could also argue that means our number must soon come up. My point is that anything can happen at anytime. Make a realistic assessment of the risk and show necessary caution, just as you do with your kids going to school.

I have a tendency towards anxiety but have learned to manage it partially by forcing myself to do the things I'm afraid of when I know my fears are irrational. Without this type of action, fear just grows unchecked. My husband is a counselor and reminds me regularly that people with anxiety always make things out to be worse than they ever are in real life, and the best way to conquer fear is action. But then again, I also have a passion for travel and when doubts and fears creep in I remind myself that I would rather die in a plane crash crossing the pond or fall off a mountain while hiking and truly have lived than spend my life in fear at home and miss out on all these great things. And when I force myself to do things I'm afraid of, I quickly realize I didn't have to worry and I enjoy myself, which helps me do the same again in the future. Not sure if that would help you, but just a thought.

We travel 35 days / 6 countries in Europe this past summer with our kids 8 & 10 years old. Prior to going I was nervous about pickpockets, my bags getting stolen off trains, my kids getting lost in the crowds, and to a smaller degree terrorist. The biggest thing for me was once we actually arrived in Europe I STOPPED being nervous. The fears and images I had in my head just didn't match up with when I was physically there.

I think once you actually get there you won't worry.

Strikes remain my greatest fear in Europe. We were dodging the left and right.

We have a really good lead on getting tickets to the opening match of this year's UEFA Euro 2016 tournament being held at Stade de France. I'd be going with my friend and her children. Even though Stade de France was one of the sites targeted, and this is a very high profile sporting event, we feel pretty secure knowing security is likely going to be a lot tighter than it normally is and it's an event that would be very cool for the kids to see as they are soccer fanatics. Being from Boston, we've had our own attack at a high profile sports event, so yes, stuff can happen anywhere. And it can happen at home just as easily as it can while you are traveling. It doesn't mean life has to come to a grinding halt out of fear over what might happen.

Frankly, it's just not a good thing to play "What ifs" scenarios because you can essentially do that all day long if you really felt like coming up with a huge list of all these bad things that could happen to you and your family (i.e., "What if the brakes stop working on the car while we are driving down a steep mountain?" "What if someone shoots us while we wait in line for the museum?" "What if ISIS plants explosive devices on the plane, or at a subway or train station?" "What if a giant asteroid comes hurtling out of the sky, hits the middle of the ocean and sets off a mega tsunami that wipes out heavily populated coastlines all across the entire world!").

I would suggest you not plan a trip to France at this point in time, and don't even tell your kids why. Just say it's not in the cards at present and leave it at that. Make plans instead to travel within the US to somewhere you do feel safe, or just don't go to France or any other European country you feel is too risky for you to handle without becoming anxious. Maybe Iceland, Ireland (not Northern), Luxembourg. You don't hear too much about terrorist attacks in any of these places.

I have multiple relatives who live all over Europe and somehow they take trains, ride subways, eat in restaurants, attend sports events and concerts, go to museums, shop, sit in parks, drink at bars, commute to the office, and they do these things every single day without being anxious the end is near. No one here (unless they work for the CIA) is going to be able to give you any guarantee that security is going to improve enough in the coming years to meet whatever expectations you might have about what's an acceptable level of "safe" for your family. It could be your kids wait until they grow up to see Paris on their own. And that's totally ok. Just don't taint their view of an entire country being "unsafe" based on these acts. I have known someone for nearly 25 years who always talks about how she admires that I can go overseas and travel. She also wanted to do those things at one point in her life and even went so far as to try to plan to travel with me several times a few decades ago, but every single time she backed out. Her mother was a very anxious and fearful person and she would hear of my friend's plans to travel overseas and would talk about how scary and unsafe it would be to travel through a foreign country. My friend has never left the United States. Her mother is now dead and gone, but that sense of anxiety and fear continues to live on in my friend. It would be a real shame if you share your fears with the kids and get them playing the "what if" game in their heads now to set them up for a lifetime of anxiety over things that have a relatively small chance of happening while they are traveling.

Read statistics - if it helps.You can travel around the US as it was already suggested. Maybe you would feel safer than in Europe, albeit statistically it is vice versa. Or if you want to go to Europe and feel safe, go to Eastern Europe sometimes also called Central Europe like Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia. They have never had terrorist attack there.

Here is another source of information. It an algorithm developed to try and establish crime threats and general safety based on the perceptions of the people living in the various locations. I like it because it attempts to balance the factors that make a place safe or not safe and it identifies where the concerns are. It is also continuously updated so it reflects changes in near real time. But the site explains it all. You can even do two city comparisons to see how your home town stacks up against where you are going. http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Hungary&country2=France&city1=Budapest&city2=Paris

I am thinking that the OP is afraid of coming back and posting her thoughts on these comments.

@Wonderful, you are absolutely correct; and in regards to your statement it holds true for the citizens of Johannesburg and Tegucigalpa as well.

In these safety threads the notion that Central or Eastern Europe might feel safer due to fewer migrants (some times I mention it, some times Ilja among others). I just came from the train station in Budapest that got all the news coverage last year. All the vandalism has been repaired, the place is spotless clean and not a migrant in sight. It will be interesting to see if it holds up when the weather warms up.

Stay home and be afraid, travel and be afraid. I'd rather travel.