Europe with a baby...

Matthew;
Unless you have family that you will be visiting, go with your gut and put this trip off until he is older. Yes he's a good baby now, but maybe not so much later this year. You'll be spending lots of money and he won't remember any of it. Since you and your wife have traveled to Europe many times already, I'd wait until he is older and can get something out of the trip.

" what do you folks think?" Stay at home until he is five or so.

I think you should wait for posters who have traveled with a small child and then see if they would have rather stayed home. Lots of families travel with children and no, the child may not remember it, but you will. Do you travel with him in the US? Ask your doctor about benadryl for the flight.... You will find people who will tell you not to take a 5 year old. I traveled to Paris with a friend who took a daughter for her 4th birthday. They had a great time and now that she is 9 she does not remember it.... but her mom sure does and as she had a health scare this year she is extremely grateful for that trip They have beautiful pictures and the mom can tell her about it and relive those memories if they go again.

You have to ask yourself, what is best for the baby? Baby could stay home with grandparents perhaps? Warning: baby may be spoiled rotten by grandparents by the time you get back.

Two questions to ask yourself; 1) Is foreign travel so central to your life that putting it on hold for a few years would be emotionally too difficult to bear? 2) Is leaving the child in the care of trusted family/friends at home too emotionally difficult to bear? If the answers to both questions are yes, then a case could be made that you should go with the child. It can be done. It has been done. But coming from someone who has sacrificed and dedicated himself to taking his (older) children on big educational trips each of the last several years, I think there is another question to ask, too; Is not waiting and taking the child with you a gift for the child, or for you? Because if it's really for you, then the child becomes a just a pawn. I would never say it was "wrong" to do it, but I would say they issue was more nuanced than simply saying right or wrong. I think the question deserves some soul-searching.

On our first big trips with kids, my husband and I took an 8 y.o, a 5 1/2 y.o, a 2 1/2 y.o. and a 4 month old to Ireland. We chartered a boat and rented bicycles and sailed up and down the Shannon River for two weeks. We had a lovely time, and the two oldest still remember it. We have been all over the world with kids in the intervening years, and I think it has been a valuable experience for them. It is a lot more work for the parents, and you don't always get to see the sites that you might have otherwise chosen, but we have no regrets. They now range in age from 27 to 19, and we just returned from 11 days in Egypt. They're wonderfully seasoned travelers now, and I chalk it up to their childhood experiences.

Start small and work up. Our kids got used to road trips by going on weekend trips- then weeklong trips, then longer each time till it was 3 weeks. At the same time they got used to traveling internationally by going to Mexico with direct 2 hour flights, then the Caribbean with a change of planes. I agree with previous poster that it's great to have seasoned travelers who can entertain themselves and be responsible for each other, from experience. Small detail: when they are young they can get sick more quickly and can't tell you exactly what's wrong.
Two parents sitting in a wonderful Euro city with a sick baby? or one sightseeing while the other takes care ? May I suggest you start with trips not so far away, if you don't want to leave him?- and if your desire to get away might be satisfied by somewhere closer like NYC or SFO or even the tropics?

I have 3 kids, now 16-21. We travelled a fair amount with them when they were little but they were all school aged before we did Europe. We did cruises in Caribbean,, and Hawaii and Mexico land trips first. I think babies under 1( or not walking) are easiest of young kids to travel with,, they sit in strollers and back packs,, once they start walking they are not so easy,, when our oldest was 4 we went to Hawaii, which is about 6 hrs on plane for us, well our 2 yr old did not want to sit for 6 hrs,, and the seat belt light was on ( turbulance) for alot of time,, and he didn't really understand why he couldn't get up, not so fun.
I think kids from just starting to walk to about 4 are the least easy to travel with. I personally would wait till child was at least 3 or 4 to fly 10 hours.

Personally think it is time for a little bonding with grandparents. At least that is what I would do if you were my son. We all went to Germany for Christmas year when the granddaughter was about 8 mo. Perfect age - sleep and ate well, rode and sleep in the stroller, and in general went very well. However, this year at Christmas would have been a very different situation. She wants to run everywhere, and is transitioning to a little independent person who has opinion about lots of things. I think the stress level could be much higher between 1 and 3 or 4 than earlier or later.

We used to take our kids back and forth because we lived in LA and one side of the family was in France.
The plane wasn't such a problem, at least it wasn't traveling with our kids eons ago, because the vibration and motion knocked them out. The problem was dragging the little ones around where we wanted to go. I'd be more concerned about disturbing others in restaurants, museums, hotels, and rented apartments. You ask how long these places would entertain you. None of these places will entertain you for long if you have to spend most of your time giving little man a stable environment that doesn't upset his routine and security too much.

Having "been there and done that" I have to side with the posters that say leave the baby with grandparents & take an 8-9 day trip to Europe. My daughter who's now 25 started to be a real blast to travel with at 4. Before that it was a crap shoot on how things would pan out even with tons of planning. Now she's my favorite travel companion. It's alot of work taking a baby or toddler overseas and you would have to forget about traveling "light" if you do. You can see almost as much in that shortened amount of time then in 2 weeks with baby there. It's fantastic that you have grandparents to leave the baby with. Some folks don't have that option. Remember that this is supposed to be a vacation & traveling with baby may or may not put a big damper on the fun factor. But having said that - I've taken pity on my best friend who doesn't have the "grandparent option" and traveling with both her and her 2 yr old daughter to Korea on a manditory business trip just so she has back up there. It works out good because she's paying the hotel and some expenses for me and I get to see some sights. I would have had to take time off from work to take care of the kid anyway so I might as well go with them. The 2yr old has already been on 3 roundtrip flights in the same time zone & did great, but we are already prepared for a super cranky kid for 2-3 days into the trip and then another 2-3 days after we get back to the USA.

i'll have to see how mom feels about leaving her bundle of joy for so long and so far away.

There are pros and cons about traveling with young kids. I agree with the previous poster who said they're actually easier when they're less than 1 than at 14-18 months old. I am a big proponent of traveling with kids and not leaving them behind. If travel is important to you and your husband, then it should be important to you as a family, too And if you start when they're young, they adapt and IMO become even better travelers when they're older. However, your son will be in my least favorite to travel with age range. It sounds like you have the right idea with slowing down, picking one or two bases, and being prepared with lots of things for him to do - and eat - on a 10 hour flight. (I used to give my kids a packet of post it notes and let them decorate them, put them on the seat back, the windows, etc. It's the weird stuff like that that can make a difference.) Sorry I can't say much about using amsterdam and belgium as bases. Haven't explored that area enough.

I started taking my kids overseas when my oldest was not quite 2. It's a whole different experience than traveling with just adults, but a good time nonetheless. The plane ride will be a lot of work. Talk to your doctor about benedryl, but if it's okay for you to give your child some, try it before you go on the trip. It knocks some kids out, but's like speed for others. I'd definitely recommend getting him his own seat on the plane and bringing a car seat to buckle him in to. It's safer, he's probably comfortable sleeping in it, and you can buckle him in so he'll stay still for a while. Home bases are a great idea. I'd vote for getting an apartment. It usually costs about the same as getting a hotel room, but it'll give you more room, a kitchen, and access to a washer and dryer. With a kitchen, you don't have the added stress of trying to get through dinner in a restaurant with a tired toddler. I took my son on a farmhouse stay outside of Salzburg when he was 3. The area there has lots of kid things to do.

Places like Amsterdam, Ghent, and Bruges are small....maybe ideal for a young child, especially if there is any acting up, fussiness.....maybe wont take you long to get him/her home. May want an accommodation that has a kitchenette in case you should eat at home instead of a restaurant. I am recently married and starting to get long in the tooth...Now is the time for me to try to have a baby because I am not getting any younger...and it bothers me that it may interrupt my travel obsession. I said this to my co-worker who then told me, "Kelly, children are portable". You may not be able to hit 5-6 sites per day (who wants to do that anyway). You may want to book all three middle seats of the plane (or go in the winter when that middle seat may remain empty). I'd say go for it because it is what I would do. Some may say that it is selfish, that it would be too hard on the child, but really if it is in your blood to go over the pond no matter what (it is the disease that I have), then do it.

good thoughts, everyone. i agree that ideally, waiting till he is older would be the thing to do. the problem is that we plan to have another child, and with the spacing of a few years between them, we're talking at least 6-7 years before they are both old enough to "travel well". i know i don't want to wait that long. as for leaving him behind, that's definitely an option. we are leaving him with grandma and grandpa next month for 5 days while we take a cruise just the two of us. the problem with leaving him behind for a european trip is we typically take ~2 weeks when we go, and that's a bit a long to leave him with some one else. a week long trip to europe almost doesn't seem worth it with the expense and time spent to get there. plus, we have friends that we typically try to see when we go to europe, i don't want to wait 6-7 years to possibly see them again, but i also know they'd probably like to see him as well. i guess this falls into that "first world problems" category.

My first flight to Europe was with an 18 month old. Torture for the days after, getting used to the jet lag. That age is loud and cranky enough to let you know their needs, but not old enough to understand "everyone else is trying to eat, sleep, etc." That said, take the trip if you want, but you should look into kinderhotels.com a great hotel group that offers daycare/child minding at the hotel. They cater to the kids, so having a jet lagged 18 mo old isn't a big deal. Your friends can meet you at the hotel and it'll be a vacation for everyone. Also suggest a backpack to carry the kid in, worked out great for us, just keep passing the cookies back and they're happy.

oh snap, i didn't even think of the jet effect on the baby...

" a week long trip to europe almost doesn't seem worth it with the expense and time spent to get .." Compromise, my young friend. Longer trips will come later after the kids are grown & gone.

Take the baby

i'm thinking we'll probably put it off till 2013. he'll be less babyish and while more of a handful, i think i can handle that better than a barely year old.

Since you have a grandparent option I say do that! I would hesitate from spending money on a plane ticket for a child who will never remember the trip anyway. We have taken our son all over the world but, other than Canada at around 15 months, we waited to fly internationally with him until he was 7 or 8. I love traveling with him.

Paul, Clearly you can do whatever you want and can afford to do when it comes to travel and children. My wife and I went to Europe in 1994, shortly after we were married. In 1996 we had our first child. #2 in 1998 and #3 in 2003. We returned to Europe as a family in 2007, 13 years after the first visit & enjoyed ourselves so much that we managed to return in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012 (coming in June). During those 13 years in between we went on great American road trips, seeing 40 states and 4 Canadian provinces. That worked for us. Our finances are quite limited. We have to get the biggest bang possible for the tourist buck, so spending 5-figures for a trip that the child can't remember was not a reasonable option for us. But that doesn't mean others have to do it the same way. Other people have different definitions of what is reasonable for them.

Matthew - even if you took your baby with you, you would be changing what you used to do "per-parenthood". So dont be afraid of changing the amount of time you go away for and go by yourself. I found, as the mother, that I could do 9 days away being on my way home on day 10. That was the max. We did four trips before we started taking our kids with us. We focused on small parts of countries. So we did a triangle of Amsterdam, Paris, brussels. We did Rome to the Amalfi coast, Pompeii and back. We did 1 week in hong kong. These were all great trips-focused, small distances, and a great marriage rejuvenator. But when we started taking our kids we did longer trips! Started going for 2 weeks and worked up to almost 4! So there is light at the end of the tunnel. And all the trips will be wonderful even though they will be very different.

We took our son to Europe for a couple of weeks when he was eleven months old. He was a good child and got a lot of attention from the locals. There were some challenges and we certainly did not see as much as we would have without him, but only one parent had to watch him, the other was free for other things. He never acted up. We had a good time, he had a good time. He doesn't remember it or anything else he did at that age.

i think when we go the next time we will leave the munchkin at home. i don't mind spending the money on "something he won't even remember" because the trip is for us, not him. but the jet lag thing and everything else makes me think we would enjoy it more without him.

Matthew, The really tough thing is that you probably WON'T enjoy yourselves more in Europe without the toddler. Naturally, as a loving parent, you would want anything lasting more than a few hours to include your child. That would make YOU happy. But the critical issue, and the one that many other people gloss over, is that it won't make the child happy. When they are old enough to absorb, process, understand and appreciate their surroundings, they will love going distant places and you will be giving them a great gift to take them along. Until that time, travel to Europe from the eyes of a toddler is little more than an annoying series of frequent and unusually long periods when they aren't being allowed to do what they want to do in their normal environment.

Matthew, I agree with Greg - take the baby! Europeans travel with their toddlers all the time. It would be a nice idea to try some close-to-home trips beforehand, but not really necessary. I've traveled with a 2-year-old in Italy, and while her priorities were not the same as mine (and I always yielded), it was a great experience. Talk with your pediatrician (and even better, your pediatric nurse) about what might come up and how to deal with it, and go! I found that the older the child, the more difficult the "first big trip" is. A toddler will assume that whatever the parents are doing is pretty normal - unless he/she needs something different. Europe is very baby-friendly, too.

Yes,, Europeons travel all the time with their babies,, IN EUROPE,, they do not all take them on 10-12 hour transalantic flights crossing numerous time zones, and often they are using their own cars, own carseats, staying in their own countries were the food and water are familar. It s what alot of us are suggesting,,travel around the States first and see how that goes first

Hi Matthew We took our then 18 month old to India from Seattle. the trip was approx 24 hours long (longer than Europe ofcourse) and ofcourse we were visiting family in India so it definitely was better as we had a familiar home base after we landed. However it was not an experience I would like to replicate going to another country where we would not have a home base. For what its worth, here are some important lessons we learnt which may be useful should you decide to travel to Europe. Ofcourse this is from personal experience only and everyone's is different and every kid is different. 1) Take direct flights wherever possible. We made this mistake and paid for it dearly. Long waits, exhausting et 2) Keep multiple changes of clothes for the kid AND yourself. On the way back my daughter (probably exhaustion or jet lag or both) threw up throughout (I mean throughout!) the flight and she had 8 clothing changes and my husband and myself had 3! Thankfully we were prepared. 3) We took Benedryl with us but ended up not giving it to her. Her doctor had told us not to but we took it anyway just in case. However, we did try it on her before we left home to see its effect on her. I believe a poster had mentioned it before to try it.
4) Jet lag was a huge issue for her when we landed. She had no idea I think what was happeneing to her and was very clingy and disoriented and cranky. The first 3-4 days were not very good for us. However we had family so it was not that big of an issue but may be an issue if u are travelling for sightseeing. 5) If you do decide to travel definitely take something familiar to the baby: blanket, toy, food they love. It breeds familiarity for them in an unfamiliar envirnoment. Have an awesome trip if u do decide to go!!

We traveled to the UK annually, including when my kids were wee ones, but we did it because my husband's side of the family (especially Nana) would have killed us if we had deprived them of the opportunity spoiling our kids! I can definitely confirm that the flights themselves are the worst part, at that age. Even the crankiest and fussiest toddler will eventually sack out, but in the meantime, you will feel the wrath of everyone else on the plane if he cries. Toddlers don't understand that they can't run down the aisle of the plane, sample other people's food, and get off the plane 'right now!!!' We were really lucky in our trips and never had our two kids act up, but I know that it was a matter of luck. I've certainly been on planes where the parents were less lucky. Since in the experience of most parents, the long plane ride and jet lag are the primary issues in traveling with a toddler, why not consider a US vacation for the next year or two? The Florida Gulf coast beaches are gorgeous and kids love the warm waters of the Gulf, for example. Or Santa Fe has all the culture and charm of Europe, also close by. Or San Francisco is another place you could think about that has plenty for grownups to do and is reasonable nonstop flight away. The point is, you can avoid the potential horror show of a long, long flight and still have a great vacation that works for the adults and for your child. (Don't get me started, however, about the inevitable push for the Disney vacation experience when he gets older...we did that one and still talk about it with a frisson of horror!)

Like the previous poster we traveled to Europe with our kids as often as possible but it was so they could visit their grandparents. And yes European children travel, but it's usually with their families on vacation to a rented house in the countryside, a rented apartment at the coast, camping, or a vacation village where the family relaxes and has fun. Excursions are included to nearby places. Children are also sent off to be with their grandparents but past the toddler stage. The child-centered mania we have in the US doesn't seem to have hit Europe yet.

We are heading to Europe next month and leaving the kids behind. My daughters are 20 months and 3 1/2. The grandparents are coming to stay at our house while we leave for 10-11ish days. We also would like to have 1 more child, so we timed this trip now while no one is breastfeeding and can be away from mom for an extended amount of time. I have only been away from #1 for 1 night and never from #2. I have traveled cross-country several times with both kids (alone and w/my husband). Our longest flight was 6 hours when #2 was 18 monthsnot a fun ride. It's easy to get a baby to fall asleep on the planerock them a bit, breastfeed, etc. It's much harder to get a 25 lb toddler that's just learned to walk and run to sleep and is distracted by everything. And she's too young to pop a DVD into a DVD player, that only works for about 15 mins and then she needs a new distraction. I would agree that 1 1/2-2 1/2 is the worst age to fly. You just can't explain what's going on. I would have no problem flying with just my 3 1/2 year old. I'm sure she'd love Europe (she's very excited that we're going to see the Eiffel Towerbut she'll miss us, she says). Even jet lag going from the East Coast to the West Coast is no fun. Although for some reason it's always worse going West (maybe because they try to get up at 3-4 AM). I'm a work at home mom and I know it will be hard to go from 24 hour/day with my kids to not seeing them for over a week but I'm very much looking forward to spending time with my husband. And we plan to skype.

You are a braver man than I Matthew. Personally, I wouldn't contemplate taking an overseas trip with a child under 5 - 6 years of age. As parents of a 40 year old and and a 37 year old, we have have the wonderful pleasure of looking after our grandsons over the past 4 years, so I speak from recent experience (the eldest 5 years started school last week, the young bloke is 16 months old.) These two guys are the most placid easy going kids, but there is no way I would travel with an 18 month old.
Europe will still be there in 5 years time!!

I wonder what the long term health implications might be ? Maybe none, but I think of how my feet swell up during long flights and how painful my ears are on landing. what effect it may have on a childs body that we are not yet that aware of? I suffered also with a deep vein thrombosis from a 9 hour flight. More and more peole are reporting health side effects of long flights and there have been reports linking flying with cot death . I personally would wait until a little older

I would think it depends on how much control you have on your infant. This past oct my wife and I flew back from Paris to LAX and during this flight a young french mother let her infant scream,jump off the seat,and caused havoc in the business class. This went on for 7 hours of the 10 hour flight home. Other infants were on the flight and other than normal crying tolerated the flight well. On the way over our flight was delayed and we had a 8 hour layover at CDG before flying to Istanbul. For the first time since 1997 we have decided not to go to europe as the 2 flights took a lot out of us.

Rick Steves did a podcast on Traveling with Kids that might be of interest to you: http://podcasts.ricksteves.com/feeds/pgm137a_pod.mp3

Hi Matthew, This is something my husband and I have chatted about as well. I'm due with our first child in July, and we are pondering the idea of going to Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, France) next spring (our little one will be 9 or 10 months old. Other parents have told us this is the best time to travel, as their needs are much simpler. The flight still scares the heck out of me though.
It's been interesting reading the replies here. Unfortunately, we do not have grandparents who would be able to help, or we would definitely go that way!

Laura,, older then 4-5 months and younger then walking is the easiest.. in fact the easiest trip we took with our kids was when the baby was about 5 months old, still breast feeding, eating only a little bit of pablum or mashed veggies, and not screaming to get out of the stroller to crawl or walk... plus a baby backpack is great,, before they get too heavy to carry for 10-12 hours !!

Hello, My husband and I went to Prague, Vienna and Salzburg with our at-the-time 14 month old and with me 5 months pregnant with our second. For the plane ride, I would recommend forking out the extra money to get the baby his own seat. It will be well worth the money. The train ride from Prague to Vienna was probably the hardest part of our whole trip. Other than that, I'm sure we would have seen many more sights had we not had the baby. However, we also got to hang back and enjoy the parks and other sights that we wouldn't have otherwise visited. Also, Europeans love babies and received extra help wherever we ended up. We rented apartments in all 3 cities that were close to city centers and that definitely helped...to be able to come back in the afternoons for nap time, etc.
All in all, it was a great trip and we have been on 3 international trips with our 4 and 3 year olds. If you want your little guy to be a good traveller, then might as well start young!!! Good luck!!

I've seen a bunch of postings on Rick Steves about taking very young children on a European vacation. All I have to say is don't. Leave them with grandparents or aunts, uncles. They won't remember anything, and travel with a child is just too much of a hassle. You need a vacation from them, and they deserve a vacation from you. They'll have great vacations later, and remember them then. Our daughter has traveled all over the world when she was of Junior High School age and older, and she actually remembers her trips.