Europe is not a place! Europe is not the same as EU.

"I did the math for two locations: Sofia, Bulgaria and Vienna, Austria and neither have a minimum wage that provides the same standard of living as does the the NYC minimum was vs the NYC cost of living."

I am not familiar with the NYC employment laws but in most US states servers and other employees that get tips their "minimum" wage is less than 1/2 the standard minimum wage. That is the wage that should be used for comparison.

Is this a forum for travelers who should know better or a forum for travelers and future travelers who are looking to learn?

I always thought it was a forum for people who love to travel and learn by asking questions of fellow travelers with more experience. It's been incredibly helpful to us when planning trips. If the OP is so frustrated by statements made on the forum perhaps he should no longer participate. Heaven knows those of us making statements or asking questions would not want to add to his stress.

well it is a new voice here so perhaps we should give his irate rant some slack.

As others have previously said, if it makes you upset, skip it.

Welcome to the Forums, Mister E

If the Europe/EU/Schengen questions bother you, then step away from the keyboard. They go in the same category as the misspellings of cities or the Americanized version of spellings and people making sarcastic remarks. Is it the Rhein or the Rhine? Is it Frankfurt or Frankfort? Cologne or Köln?
It doesn't take any effort to be kind and if you can't be kind, then perhaps this forum isn't for you?

Mister E is a prolific contributor, over 13,000 posts, to the travel forum and reading a sampling of his posts defines a person desiring to help people with their journeys. Hence the calls for stepping away from his keyboard and contributing to the forum seem to be harsh.
I read a disconnect from the post title, Europe is not a place!, and the cited example of "living wage".
The geography of Europe is greater than the perceptual knowledge of Americans. Prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union, RIP Mikael Gorbachov, maps of Europe depicted only the "free nations". Even after 33 years of the downfall of the Berlin Wall, folks still fail to envision the former countries of Yugoslavia as being "part of Europe".
I wonder to what degree this behavioral knowledge exists among Europeans?
SO generalizations can really get out of whack when trying to connect a persons advocacy, "tipping", to a large geographic area and apply a conclusion (tipping will rise in "Europe" due to Americans tipping more in the USA).
I believe the USA economic model dependent upon servers receiving tips as a major form of compensation for their work is severely flawed. I also believe the "European" business model of mandating a living wage be paid to a worker is a better system. Having done significant business on both sides of the pond I am in a position to have a knowledgeable opinion. However, feel free to discuss as you deem reasonable.
We should be kind with our keystrokes, even when our neck hair rises and the temptation to use ALL CAPS increases. We are travelers blessed to learn and be able to counsel fellow travelers within this forum.

One would hope that such a prolific poster would recognize the fact that this is not the place for negativity.

Well, James, first, I didn't bother reading the thread you found offensive. They usually end in food-fights. I'm sure you know this.

Bob, I do have to respond to your attempt at comparison because your premise is based only on salaries, which falls short because it doesn't include the un-taxed subsidies accorded residents of different countries, different regions, cities, towns and villages.

I can speak only for France and give examples of a few benefits just off the top or my head: non-taxed subsidies are given to a huge percentage of families. When my first child was born 44 years ago, the postman knocked on the door one day and gave me three month's of subsidy in cash from the gov. health insurance. Today, it's direct deposit. All doctor visits, supplies before and after birth, hospital stay, everything was free. Transportation to the hospital for treatments is free. If a home aide is needed to clean your house while convalescing, the mayor's office pays it.
Employees' lunches are subsidized. Employers either run a cafeteria with full three-course meals, bread, wine, coffee, or if the company is smaller, the employees receive meal vouchers. You see the signs in the windows of restaurants, cafes, brasseries, bakeries announcing the brands of vouchers they accept. Vacations are subsidized, children's summer camps are subsidized, school supplies are subsidized. Treatment for cancer and many other diseases is covered 100%, including transportation to and from the treatment hospital or center.
Childcare centers run by the localities are subsidized, though hard to get a slot. My children's had a full time cook who even made the yogurt. Otherwise, childcare is subsidized. Public school begins at age 3--free--all day. Once in a while a 2.5 year old can start.
Where I live, bus and tram transportation is free for under 18 and over 65 years of age but it will soon be extended to all residents.
Every child learns to swim as part of the public school curriculum.
Some elementary classes go to the Alps for a month, staying in a hostel built for such a purpose, with school work in classrooms downstairs half the day and skiing the other. It's free. Clothes for the classe de neige are handed down from family to family through the mayor's office. Not all classes go; the teacher has to request it.
Many organizations (student groups, residents of towns, sister city programs) have subsidized low-cost ski vacations, travel to other countries, travel within France at a fraction of the cost on the open market. There are nature centers, hostels, etc that run year-round for discounted group travel, student, adult, senior citizens organizations.

So while you took a stab at comparing, you would really need to delve much further into the benefits and discounts received to be able to accurately compare salaries and actual standards of living.

Okay, this is partially my fault. Beyond street directions I am not a great communicator.

I got too deep in the weeds on tipping in particular. But it did prove a point to some degree as the responses started coming back with thought In them and recognition that this European country it is this way and not like that other European country. Which is the point.

The point of the post is, that when we give advice, someone with thousands of posts should take the care to not overly generalize. I like to think of the RS people as being more understanding of the differences in the world and within Europe.

The newest one is “RS says always pay in Euros” Well, I cut that some slack because RS rarely goes outside of the EU. But the more helpful statement is “Always pay in the local currency” because I could go to a shop in Budapest and the prices would be in both Euros and Forints, and it would be a mistake to pay in Euros (cost you 10% more usually). I just think we could bump the standards up and have a better forum (already very good, but never hurts to go for excellent). You and I know the intent, but there is a good chance someone will not, and it only takes changing one word to make it very clear and accurate.

And since I travel mostly in Eastern Europe and in a lot of non-EU countries and have friends and acquaintances there I tend to be a tad thin skinned when they get grouped into cultures and monetary systems that they just don’t have. A little like saying “well they are the exception and don’t count in my statements.” Actually, non-EU makes up almost half of Europe.

And no, no posts have offended me. That’s hyperbole.

Now I will just let you guys talk it out. It will be interesting to see how many get the point.

Nigel is well aware of who Mister E is! He was commenting tongue-in-cheek

Well, Bets, all I can say is, “Vive la France!”

LOL, Bets! As much as I usually love Allan’s posts, I took a total “skip” on the tipping one, too! Haven’t even opened it and won’t….. (no offense, Allan).

And oops, I have to admit I just finished a post on the “always pay in euros” post saying somewhat the same thing as Mister E, before I got to this one…. At least I now have the answer that paying in forints (as I have been) is doing me more good than paying in euros. 🤣 I already knew it was better than dollars.

On the same note, but at the opposite end of the spectrum, I decided to pass on an interesting literature course at our local Free time University here in France: 12 US novels in French translation (Steinbeck, Roth, Tart, Flagg, Erdrich, J.D. Vance, etc.). The reason: I knew that I'd blow my stack listening to suppositions, generalities, and the words "les américains" as if 329.5 million people were all the same, especially at this time in history..

Bets, you nailed it. Come have dinner with my family and you will be hugged when you come in, hugged when you leave and touched with every 4th word spoken to you. Try that in NYC and see what happens. Like comparing France to Albania.

. . . and just to be a troublemaker, I'll point out that the currency of some of Europe is euro (plural) not Euros or euros. 😬

Are you sure? This makes James' point exactly: you can't generalize. And again, each country handles it differently. In France we do use the plural, but since the last letter of words aren't pronounced in French (with only a few exception), you don't hear the /s/ but it's there. How's that for driving someone crazy!

https://www.wordreference.com/definition/speech

"In natural speech in Ireland, the plural of euro is often euro.

€ / euro / euros / Euro / Euros?

This thread is closed to avoid repetition.

Euro

To save a lot of bother, here are some extracts:
Official practice followed in English language EU legislation is to use the words euro and cent as both singular and plural.

Because the s-less plurals had become "enshrined" in EU legislation, the Commission decided to retain those plurals in legislation, but the European Commission Translation Service strongly recommends that in all material generated by the Commission intended for the general public, "the natural plurals" of each language be used.

In Ireland, however, the Irish Ministry for Finance decided to use the word euro as both the singular and plural forms of the currency, and because Irish broadcasters took their cue from the Ministry for Finance, the "legislative plurals" tend to also be used on the news and in much Irish advertising."

@ Rosalyn....Exactly ! Vive la France .

A few have reported this thread, but I'm keeping it up for the sake of making a point and I appreciate some of the responses. Sometimes it's good to stop and talk about forum things. James/Mister E isn't the first long-time poster to have brought up recurring forum behavior that they wish was different. It's natural human behavior to get jaded by something when you see it a number of times and you want to fix it. What matters is how we handle it.

I'm detail oriented, so I appreciate that he prefers accuracy. And there are other times where I just want to be relaxed and not get bogged down by details. Sometimes those details get in the way of the intended discussion. Almost everyone here has probably referred to a European trip that was really just a few countries and not all of Europe. Let's just be good to each other in this forum. Stay positive. If someone says "Europe" and not the EU, let it slide.

And there are other times where I just want to be relaxed and not get bogged down by details. Sometimes those details get in the way of the intended discussion. Almost everyone here has probably referred to a European trip that was really just a few countries and not all of Europe.

Never really meant to be negative to anyone. And you are right, a trip to Europe is a trip to Europe on matter where you go. I think if you go back a few years you will find my trip to Europe included a stop in South Africa between London and Paris.

I think the "issues" worthy of reporting were deviations from the subject for the most part.

It was really about over generalizations that end up with inaccurate advice or perception. Things like "I am going to Europe, should I change money before I go" receiving, "no, get Euro(s?) when you get there." I admit, that will work for 90% of the first time posters. But dont we want to have a broader perspective and reflect that as a group? I go a few times a year to a European, long standing EU country where euros wont do me a lot of good. Thats an example of a factual inaccuracy. Then there are the ones of perspective. "Europeans get a living wage" Well many do, some do about as good as we do, and others much worse. The statement comes pretty close to accurate in Western Europe I presume. But I like to think we want a forum that responds to the "Europe" question with a broader perspective and understanding. The OP may get interested and do some research to learn more about the world. Its a big and colorful world, embrace it all.

The new members in particular turn here expecting a degree of accuracy.

But sure, in the chit chat I am as bad as anyone in generalities. Just not in advice. Actually my Budapest responses have been called anal and I dont take that as an insult.

I appreciate you leaving it up. Nothing offended me and a few got the point and maybe we will sound a bit more learned and professional. The tangents above .......... let 'em run.

"Most folks know what countries comprise the European continent." It is not at all clear. The usual geographical description is everywhere west of the Urals, but there are European institutions especially of a sporting or cultural nature which include other countries. Eurovision includes Israel, for example, while countries like Uzbekistan and Russia can be included on occasion in some events.

Europe is not a place!

umm actually it is. Just as North America or Australia or Asia is a place. Just a big one, with plenty of subdivisions....

Europe is not the same as EU.

On that I'd agree. By definition.

Part of Iceland is on the European tectonic plate, while the other part is on the North American. The airport, for this EU and Schengen country is in which continent?

If you have been to Martinique, Guadeloupe, or Saint Martin/San Maarten in the Caribbean, you are politically in Europe though physically on the American continent. You'll use euros and see signs about EU money at work on different projects: archaeology, infrastructure, etc. Same with Saint Pierre and Miquelon, islands off the Terre-Neuve Canadian coast

both Turkey and Russia are both in Europe and Asia...

My purpose in telling people " Europe is a place" I will be be traveling to is from a geographic perspective. Of course, that presupposes that "they" know the countries located there, ie, pin point it. "They" don't know whether my European itinerary is France, the British Isles, Serbia, Holland, Lithuania or Czechia, etc.

Fred, makes sense. But in the reverse; "in Europe they do this and that" makes less sense.