Europe in 21 days

Probably none. Many of those routes are serve by local trains that are not cost effective with a pass. Some of the longer distances will have discount tickets available if purchased far enough in advance. You indicate when you will be traveling.

One of the reasons the RS 21 day Europe tour works is that they have mastered the logistics. Accept that it will take you longer to do the same type of itinerary. You may still spend just 21 days, but more of those days will be spent simply managing the travel from one location to another.

I have looked at the train travel times

Hi and welcome to the forum, Joan -
Question? Is it the RS 21-day Best of Europe tour you're basing your trip on? Just curious as transportation for that tour is almost exclusively by bus. Were you exploring destination-to-destination rail timing on a specific site, and if so, which was it?

Joe and Carol make very good points about the differences between that itinerary on a tour where transport is largely door-to-door, you have in-person guidance from place-to-place, and your attraction reservations and tickets are pre-scheduled and/or pre-purchased for you. All of that saves some moving-around time that you won't have.

I'll also agree that train passes aren't really efficient rail travel in every country. It would be best if you could provide your complete day-to-day itinerary?

Good advice above. It's tempting to look at the tour itinerary and say to yourself, "hey, I can do that!" Problem is, the tour folks have practiced the trip over and over, they have learned many lessons, they know the way and a thousand little details of what to do (and what not to do). As you learn the same lessons for the first time, you will not be able to replicate their pace -- at least not without getting up at oh-dark-thirty every day, wrapping things up late at night, skipping things, and getting stressed about maintaining the very aggressive pace.

That "21-day itinerary" covers an awful lot of ground...I think any independent traveler trying to replicate that would want/need more than 4 weeks (even more if this is your first time to Europe). You can do a lot of the same things, but many will take longer, will require more setup work that you might expect, etc.

I have done several trips on my own where I used a Rick Steves tour as a starting point, tailoring plans for my own preferences and pace, but I've never tried to follow one exactly day-by-day, and I don't think I could.

I am basing this on the Europe through the Back Door itinerary on page 50. I am, however, starting the tour in Paris and leaving out London. I have been to CT but my husband has not and I really want him to see it. Maybe I leave it out or leave out Como (where he wants to go). Also thinking about cutting Florence a day short since I have been there, as well.

If anyone has done a similar tour on their own, I would love more advice. Going through Interlaken seems a little time consuming and not direct, however, when reading reviews travelers said this was one of their favorite spots of this tour.

I understand that Rick Steves has the tour logistics down perfectly but I cannot imagine spending that much time on a bus and also do not want to go with a group. We like to do things at our own pace (obviously a fast pace!)

Ah, OK. Not all of us have the book to refer to so providing your day-to-day itinerary would still be useful. :O)

No, I don't think any of us meant that you need to take the tour, just that the timing should be different if trying to do that particular itinerary on your own. Some posters use the tours as guides for indy trips but don't really understand why they need to add more time.

I am basing this on the Europe through the Back Door itinerary on page 50.

I do not have that book, so do not know what it outlines. I am surprised it does not have suggestions for how to get from one place to next.

In 2012, I used the Europe through the Back Door book as guidance to plan an independent trip with my (then) 16 year old son. It was our first Europe trip and I couldn’t seem to figure out how to do the train routing. So after looking at a map to determine what order would be best for our chosen itinerary, I called the German rail company DB (as was recommended by RS, not sure where, maybe on his website?) and they assisted us with the entire train route itinerary. DB sent us the full printed itinerary, along with reservations for those trains that required it. We had a global pass from Eurail for the number of days that we would be traveling. Having the railpass and DB assistance made the whole process so much easier for us as first timers. For subsequent trips, I’ve been able to easily navigate/plan out train routes. It’s just that it was mystifying until I actually experienced it, after that, easy peasy.

Edited to add our route: London, Paris, Chamonix, Gimmelwald (Swiss Alps), Interlaken, Venice, Florence (quick stop), Rome, Pisa (quick stop), Cinque Terre.

Also, there is an abundance of very detailed train info at The Man in Seat 61

I am basing this on the Europe through the Back Door itinerary on page 50. I am, however, starting the tour in Paris and leaving out London. I have been to CT but my husband has not and I really want him to see it. Maybe I leave it out or leave out Como (where he wants to go). Also thinking about cutting Florence a day short since I have been there, as well.

When were you in the CT? I was there in mid-October 2008 and there were very few other tourists, the weather was perfect and all the trails were open. Within a few years, it became a huge tourist destination and according to what I've read it's often mobbed with visitors.

Telling us when you plan to go could make a big difference in the advice you'll get.

I have the RS ETBD 2015 edition. This is the itinerary:
3N London
4N Paris (day trip Versailles)
2N Gimmelwald
2N Florence
1N Rome
1N night train to Venice
1N Venice
1N night train to Munich
3N Munich (day trip to Neusch. Castle, day trip to Salzburg)
2N Riverboat cruise
2N Amsterdam
Total 22N

IMO that's batsh!t crazy to try on one's own, unless you are a 20-something backpacker who can sleep in any conditions. With the exception of the riverboat and Gimmelwald, it's going to major destinations where you have to learn how to get around and you only have time for a few of the many sights and the top ones will be crowded.

Here's his detailed itinerary for Paris and the Alps:

Paris. Day 1 arrive evening train. Day 2 historic "core" incl Notre Dame, Sainte Chapelle, Louvre and Eiffel Tower. Day 3 Champs Elysees, Rodin and Orsay Museums. Day 3 Versailles, Day 4 a.m. train to Swiss Alps

Gimmelwald. Day 1. Take 7 am train, arrive Interlaken 2 pm (with 2 train transfers). He doesn't explain that to get to Gimmelwald, you need to take the train to Lauterbrunnen, bus to cable car to Gimmelwald. THEN go on a late afternoon hike. Day 2 sightsee Alps (if rainy, day trip to Bern - and yes, you have to go back to Interlaken for the train to Bern). Day 3 Short hike to and take the train (from Interlaken, of course, to Florence).

I think that you will get better answers if you clearly list out your itinerary, indicating the number of night in each location. It will then be easier to advise you on the best solutions for train travel.

You do not need a train pass, though.

With the exception of the riverboat and Gimmelwald, it's going to
major destinations where you have to learn how to get around and you
only have time for a few of the many sights and the top ones will be
crowded.

Yikes. I have to agree with Chani that the suggested itinerary isn't just fast-paced, it's a batsh!t crazy dead run of some major destinations (LOL, Chani, and here I thought I was the only one that used that expression!) Only 1 full day in Florence and Amsterdam, and not even 1 full day in Rome? I can't tell if it's one or two nights in Venice, and not sure where the CT or Como even fit in? Maybe a newer version of the guide has a different itinerary?

Anyway, yes, we really need a look at your proposed itinerary to make useful suggestions.

You probably have a good reason for your current plan, but I would start in London and fly home open-jaw from Rome. Going to Paris at the end is backtracking.

EDITED: Thanks Emily. Duh-one word "out" really makes a difference in the meaning!

Cala - the OP means that they are skipping London entirely and starting in Paris. I also had to read it twice.

I think the reason the RS tour works is that someone else is taking care of the logistics. You have that free mental space to rest, relax, etc. and not worry about going from point A to point B. By doing that trip independently, you are spending a lot of your potential rest time with the planning and navigation, which can be quite stressful. You don’t say how long you’ll be gone (perhaps it’s more than 21 days) but I would definitely stay at least 3 nights in each location to give yourself time to mentally recover from the stress of getting there. I would say out of all our trips to Europe, the #1 thing that has caused us stress has been logistics (getting lost, missing buses etc.). I’m with you on not wanting to do a tour, but the tradeoff of that is having to take full responsibility 100% of the time which can wear on you.

Kelly, the RS trip itnerary they're looking at is not one of his tours. It's apparently a suggested itinerary in his "Europe Through the Backdoor" guide. See the OP's second post above.

I accept that people have different travel styles. Your trip plan is not something that I would ever want to attempt. May I ask, what are your personal goals for this trip? What is it about this transportation heavy use of time that appeals to you? There must be an underlying reason why you are trying to see so much in so little time. Help us understand so we can help you with your itinerary instead of simply react to it.

Going in April 2023 after Easter. We only have 21 days and want to see as much as possible. Again, this is based on a Rick Steves itinerary Europe in 21 days. We are actually staying longer in most places (and skipping some) that are on his itinerary. I have been to Paris, Florence, and CT and have recommendations on places to stay.

Travel on Tuesday
Paris 4 days.
Grimmelwald 2 days
Varenna OR Cinque Terre 2 days
Florence 3 days
Rome 3 days
Munich 3 days
Bacharach 2 days (take short Rhine cruise)

This is only 19 days with a couple of extra days.
I love the trains in Europe. Just have a few logistic questions regarding the best way to get to Grimmelwald. (If Rick Steves says take the early train from Paris and you’ll have time for a short hike in the afternoon, how can it be that bad?) Rick Steves also has London and Amsterdam in his 21-day Europe itinerary which we are not visiting. (Page 50 of RS Europe through the Back Door)

Is it better to take a night train from Rome to Munich or a flight?

I realize that many of you would not want to do this tour but I do and would just like a little advice.

Any advice would be very much appreciated!

For me, the choice between Varenna and CT, would boil down to travel logistics. Been to both and for 2 nights in either would be fine. I would choose the simpler travel.

I would choose flying for the Rome -Munich leg. What I see, a night train would involve multiple changes ( over 15hrs) , so you arrive sleep deprived. Best train time ( day trip) is just under 10 hrs; flight is 90 minutes. Even with the bother of airports flying wins.

I’m going to address the choice between Cinque Terre and Varenna. I agree that ease of transportation to get there should be the first consideration. After that, it becomes a “why”. Cinque Terre has the unique 5 towns with the option for hiking and riding the boat between towns if the weather’s not too rough. It’s other draw is the beach, which may not be such an option in April. Varenna also offers hiking options, the ferry boat between towns and the beautiful gardens of the various villas on the lake. I don’t think you can go wrong, but we really loved Varenna.

Paris to Gimmelwald.

TGV train, Paris to Basel (via Strasbourg) - about 3.5 hrs
Inter-City train from Basel to Interlaken Ost (via Bern) - about 2 hrs
Regional train from Interlaken to Lauterbrunnen - about 20 min.

From Lauterbrunnen,
- take bus to Stechelberg (10 min) and then take the Funicular from the bottom of the Valley (Stechelberg) to the top (Gimmelwald) - less than 5 min.
OR
- take the steep train from Lauterbrunnen to Murren (about 30 min.) and walk to the other side of town and either: take the Funicular (less than 5 min) OR hike/walk (20-30 min) from Murren down to Gimmelwald.

Thank you for the directions to get from Paris to Grimmelwald. Really appreciate it!

You're counting days, not nights, and I sense that you are getting a skewed picture of what the trip will really be like. As Brad has detailed (and I don't see transfer/wait times), you'll use the better part of a day to get to Gimmelwald and the better part of a day to get from there to your next stop. So if you mean 2 nights in Gimmelwald, you are effectively using nearly 3 days to spend one full day there.

Grimmelwald

There are two very different destinations in the Berner Oberland with similar sounding names.

Gimmelwald is what most people are taking from your post and advising on. It is a tiny tiny crossroads (well cross-paths it is so small) that is only reachable by cable car from Stechelberg car park at the far end of the Lauterbrunnen Valley, or on foot from Mürren or a steep hike up from Stechelberg. It has very few places to stay and is often recommended by Rick Steves although it is much too cut off and hard to reach for me. It had prior covid one run down hotel and a few bed and breakfast places and sleeping in the straw. The hotel used to do meals, and the Hostel used to do meals. There are no actual restaurants or shops.

Grindelwald is the next valley over, at the foot of the Eiger mountain, a large town with lots of shops and restaurants, buses, cars, trucks and many hotels of various amenity levels. You use the same train which goes to Lauterbrunnen but sit in the other half which splits off before the mountains and turns left to Grindelwald. Grindelwald is also in Rick Steves Switzerland Guide.

What you are calling "Grimmelwald" sounds like a merge of the two names. Which one did you actually mean?

Gimmelwald is pretty much my favourite place in Europe. But I am a lifetime mountain runner and hiker who loves small villages. I don't like fancy restaurants happy to have a sandwich sitting on a rock looking out over speccy views. I enjoy staying in creaky rustic old quirky hotels.
My last visit I spent 8 nights in and around Gimmelwald, our last night up at Obersteinberg Hotel which has neither power nor hot water, one of our highlights.
It is a long trip to get there. It has no real shops, not much in the way of stylish eateries or stylish accommodation.
To get there from Paris is going to take at least 8 hours but probably longer. So yep arrive with maybe enough time for a short hike. You could do the short hike up to Murren and maybe even squeeze in the ride up the Allmendhubel funicular.
The next day maybe take the cable car up to the Schilthorn and a leisurely hike back down if the weather is good. You would be on your way early the next morning if you were heading to Florence.

Just realised you are going in April. So in that case the Gimmelwald hiking options need a rethink.
It snows on more than half the days in April and average top temps are only around 4 deg C. Not sure about choices for accommodation at that time of year either.

Great catch Wurundjeri - I had completely missed the April. I've been in Mürren in April (2019 on the way to Lake Maggiore where it was dramatically warmer although to eat a pizza outdoors lakeside at sunset we needed a blanket and the pizza got cold - fast). Snow was off at least part of some of the paths and roads, but as high as 6 feet next to the road.

I would expect the path between Mürren and Gimmelwald might have been partially open but it definitely was mud and slush territory where the snow shovels hadn't been.

I can't imagine Gimmelwald being open much if at all.

Grindelwald on the other hand may have some things open, and roads should be dry (it is much lower) but of course it will be between seasons - no skiers and no hikers.

Nigel - Joan (OP) is basing her trip on the Europe Through the Back Door. There's no way to confuse Gimmelwald with Grindelwald because Grindelwald isn't mentioned in the book. OTOH, Grindelwald could be a much better option for her from what you describe. Excellent idea.

You all have been very helpful. I think I should bypass Switzerland this time (April) and go from Paris to Milan to get to Varenna. Then, Milan to Florence, Rome, Munich, Bacharach.

I really want to see the scenic hills of Tuscany. Do I just take a day trip/tour from Florence or try to make a stop in one of the small towns?

My poor husband is tired of listening to me talk about and change the schedule! He said “just plan it!” We will be celebrating my retirement and our 35th wedding anniversary. We only have 21 days. Unfortunately, my husband is not retiring.

New Itinerary:

Paris - 4 nights
Varenna - 2 nights
Florence - 3-4 nights
Rome - 3 nights
Munich- 3
Bacharach 2 nights

This leave a couple of extra days for travel.

Much better. And then fly home from Frankfurt.

that is becoming a good improvement...

One of my plans for the future is to spend two nights in Siena (which they say is an easy bus ride from Florence) and take a Tuscany tour from Tours by Roberto. If your main reason for going to Munich is to get to Bacharach, maybe you would want to decrease your time in Munich. If you are spending time in Munich so you can go to Neuschweinstein Castle, are you sure that Castle is worth the time? It's a palace rather than an actual (defensive) castle and is on my list of sights I could have done without, although I did really enjoy my stay in Fussen. This is heresy, but I'd rather just see the copy at Disneyworld.

Joan, your new plan is much better. :O)