Europe in 19 Days - Itinerary

You have a very smart itin. overall. That said, Florence needs another day. I was really overwhelmed by the summer heat in Vicenza, and Milan - You might just hack off and skip all of Italy and go there some other year in the winter, when it's lovely. Como can be stifling as well.

I would suggest seeing Bruges (the Venice of the North), the Normandy beaches, and more of Germany (Rothenburg/Nuremberg/Bamberg, or the Black Forest) if indeed you opt out of Italy.

This seems to be a variant on the RS 21-day tour of Europe. Its a lot of great places, but IMHO may be a bit rushed once out of the Alps Since you are taking the night train from Munich to Venice I assume you're traveling by rail and bus. I've done the nite train the other way from Bologna to Munich, BTW, and it was fine; but I'd strongly recommend a sleeping compartment and not trying to sleep in regular seats.

Back to the rushing idea, I suggest you make a grid something like a day planner for your trip and block out the hours spent in transit after looking them up on the carrier websites. Add in at least an hour for getting from the train to the hotel, checking in, etc. I think a lot of your 2-nite stays are going to turn into a few hours on the arrival day plus the next day.

Brad: train or car? that would help us give further thought to your itinerary.

Your question: "I keep reading that the Alps are everybody's "Wow moment", but are we a little too heavy on the Alps with 6 out of 19 days in the BO/Como/Lucerne area?"

Are you a little too heavy? Probably not. Varenna and Lucerne are not "Alps/mountain areas" in the same sense that the Lauterbrunnen Valley/BO is. From Varenna you can see mountains but you're not in them, it's a lake at the foot of some mountains experience, not like the Lauterbrunnen Valley.

Thanks for the great input everyone! Based on the advice I have so far, I'm beginning to get a few different ideas. One involves cutting out Florence and adding an additional night to two of our already scheduled stops.

I am also interested in adding Bruges, but it doesn't look like there is a very efficient way of getting from there to the Mosel/Rhine area. We are planning to travel by train - most likely using a Eurail pass based on my price comparisons so far.

Day 8: This day is not well thought out. Train to Braubach, walk up hill to Marksburg, tour, walk down, train to Bacharach, walk around Bacharach, Rhein cruise to St. Goar, Rheinfels castle. Take the train all the way from Braubach to Bacharach and the boat back to St. Goar. The boat trip up the river against the current will take too long.

You can only go into the Marksburg with a tour and the first one (what language?) starts at 10:00. The next train you could catch would be at 11:46 and that gets you into Bacharach via Bingen at 13:20. The next boat to St. Goar is at 15:15, giving you less than 2 hours in Bacharach, including walking from the station and getting your tickets for the boat. That boat gets you into St. Goar at 15:55, giving you less than 2 hours to see Rheinfels before it closes at 6 PM.

In 2004 I did Rheinfels, the boat, and Bacharach one day and the Marksburg another (½ day).

You can do it as long as you don't spend enough time at Marksburg, Bacharach, and/or St. Goar. But why bother if you are going to just rush through things.

Between day 3 and day 4 ... are you beaming yourself into Paris,, LOL HOw can you go hiking, pack up and check out, and end up in Paris by nightfall.. I am not saying you can't ,, I am asking,, have you actually checked that it is possible,, is there a train to Paris that you can get to in time after hiking?? Sometimes there is only one or two trains,, right?

I personally think that although your trip LOOKS possible, it will have screw ups as you WILL not always be able to catch the train to your next destination when you want to.. I would cut out a few places and account for more travel time.

Ok, Florence is out. I am definitely adding another night to Wengen, but I'm struggling with where to use the other night between Rothenburg, Munich, and Venice. My thoughts on each option:

Rothenburg - staying only one night will give us very little time here as a stop between the Rhine Valley and Munich. Adding a night will slow things down a little.

Munich - Since we are taking the night train, it is almost like we are staying 2 nights there already, but adding a night would probably allow us to spend a little extra time in Rothenburg before we left for Munich.

Venice - again, since we are using the night train, we will have all day and night in Venice the first day and a little time the following day before we leave for Varenna. Adding a night here would give us additional night time in Venice, which I've read is the best time to be there.

Another issue I'm having is determining how to best use our time in the Rhine/Mosel area. We will be coming late from Paris and staying 3 nights total in the area. We would like to visit a few of the towns, taste some wine, take a short cruise on the Rhine, and visit Burg Eltz, Marksburg, and possibly Rheinfels. Right now I am thinking we will spend 2 nights in Cochem and 1 night in Bacharach or St. Goar.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

A few random thoughts... To me, it seems like there's too much here for the time allowed - and I say that as someone who generally trys to cram in too much.

As crushing as this might sound, I think something needs to go. I'd lose Italy entirely (I know, that's a tough one), or skip the Alps. Living in the western US, I figure that I've got mountains that are just as pretty (arguably more so) much closer to home, and I'd rather spend my days in Europe seeing other things that can't be replicated here at home.

More observations about your plans: while the route is reasonably efficient (i.e., not a lot of doubling back or zooming across great distances to get to a destination), it does encompass a lot of area. If you dropped Italy, or the Alps, for example, you could get to more places (Bruges, Amsterdam, Normandy).

I think most people make this mistake on their first time to Europe: you can't really see much if you arrive in the afternoon and then leave the following day. Finding the hotel, checking in, getting oriented, maybe getting a little lost once or twice (you will), eating, and other minor things will eat all the time you have there. This stuff takes a lot longer than you think it will.

You have too many days that read like this: "get up, tour the place you arrived in the previous evening, travel to another place, sleep one night, move on." This leaves you really spending your days moving, but never actually being (or seeing much of) any place. I'll admit I do this, too, but I almost always regret that I didn't plan on 2 nights in most places. I'd reconsider ALL of the places you have down for just 1 night (cut half of them) - if you really want to see any of those places, 1 night isn't realistic.

Also - are you sure you (both) can sleep on a moving train? Some folks (like me) can't, and while the night train trick sounds appealing, I found it was miserable, and I'll never try that again.

Good luck & have a great trip.

I know I'm making some of the usual rookie mistakes in my itinerary, and true to form I'm going to be a little stubborn with changes. I'm doing my best to take everyone's comments into consideration - I appreciate all of them.

Itinerary draft #2:

Day 1 - Arrive in Zurich around noon, travel to Wengen - sleep in Wengen (3 nts)

Day 2 - Visit Murren, Schilthorn, Trummelbach Falls

Day 3 - Hike Mannlichen / Kleine Scheidegg

Day 4 - travel to Paris, Eiffel Tower at night - sleep in Paris (3 nts)

Day 5 - Rue Cler, museums

Day 6 - Walking tour of Paris

Day 7 - Versailles, travel to Rhine Valley - sleep in ??? (3 nts)

Day 8 - Burg Eltz Castle, Beilstein

Day 9 - Marksburg Castle, Rhine Cruise

Day 10 - Rheinfels Castle, Travel to Rothenburg - sleep in Rothenburg (2 nt)

Day 11 - Rothenburg, Nightwatchmen's Tour

Day 12 - travel to Munich, Hofbrauhaus - sleep in Munich (1 nt)

Day 13 - Munich, Dachau Concentration Camp - Night Train to Venice

Day 14 - Venice, Gondola Ride - sleep in Venice (2 nts)

Day 15 - Venice, pub-crawl

Day 16 - Travel to Varenna - sleep in Varenna (2 nts)

Day 17 - Varenna, Bellagio

Day 18 - Visit Lugano, travel to Luzern or Zurich - sleep in Luzern or Zurich (1 nt)

Day 19 - flight departs around 14:00

I wish we could make it from Varenna to the Zurich airport without having to stay somewhere in between, but I don't trust we can make it there in time for a 14:00 flight. Could I make the most out of a few evening and morning hours better in Luzern or Zurich?

Any thoughts on how to make the Rhine Valley portion most efficient? Two nights on the Mosel and one on the Rhine or vice versa? What is the best way to get to Braubach to visit the Marksburg Castle?

I think you're still "cheating" a bit (i.e. not being realistic)...

Day 4 - travel to Paris, Eiffel Tower at night....maybe LATE at night. Is it really physically possible to reach Paris from where you're starting that day in Switzerland (I don't know, but if I were you I would confirm that).

Day 5 - Rue Cler, museums...for some, a few hours in the Louvre may be enough, but I think many others would want to visit more than one Paris museum, which you don't appear to be budgeting time for. That's a choice, but just recognize that you may only get one "museum" not "museums" (plural).

Day 7 - Versailles, travel to Rhine Valley - sleep in ??? (3 nts)...again, I think you can't really "do Versailles" in just a couple hours, you need to give it the better part of a day, and that doesn't leave much time for checking out, getting to the train station, and getting yourself to the Rhine, unless you expect to arrive quite late.

Day 12 - travel to Munich, Hofbrauhaus - sleep in Munich (1 nt)...
Day 13 - Munich, Dachau Concentration Camp - Night Train to Venice...again, I don't think you're allowing enough time for the mundane tasks of dealing with check-in/out, finding your way, food, actual travel, etc.

As a rule of thumb, things tend to go badly if you don't spend more than 1 night anyplace. Moving from one place to another generally takes half a day, NOT including the actual travel time.

I'm not sure that I'd spend so many days (or any days) on Varenna or Bellagio...if you're really going all the way to Venice, I'd skip those and do 2 days in Florence.

Paris,, Rue Cler is very close to ET,, so both at same time.Rue Cler is just one street, seems silly to single it out as a destination,, I'd skip it.

Next day,, pick ONE museum and maybe Notre Dame. I love Louvre,, but Orsay is more managable for quick visit( which would still be at least 2-3 hours) . Walk around Latin Quarter and Ile de La Cite and Ile ST Louis( little islans on Seine, Notre Dame is on Ile de la Cite) alot more to see then Rue Cler.

Versailles, takes 35-45 minutes to get there, and at least 4 hours minimum to see it.. and you will still miss parts.. Palace can be run through in an hour or two,, ,, but, the grounds, the gardens, the Petit and Grand Trianon, and Marie Antionettes Hamlet will need another 2 or 3 hours.. you don't want to waste your time checking off " I saw" boxes do you,, I mean , you actually want to see the things on your list right?? Buy ticket online BEFORE you go,, or buy and use a 2 day museum pass. otherwise do not bother to go as the wait in line for tickets at the Chateau can be HOURS. ( unless you go like at 8-8:30 am ( meaning leave Paris at 7:30 or 8)and wait an hour for it to open).

Your trip is a rush,, and you will see lots,, but I hope you have the energy to enjoy it and enough time to remember what you saw. please consider further trimming.

PS heat and crowds make everything seem to take longer, and rushing really will not be fun.

"Day 7 - Versailles, travel to Rhine Valley - sleep in ??? (3 nts)
Day 8 - Burg Eltz Castle, Beilstein

Day 9 - Marksburg Castle, Rhine Cruise

Day 10 - Rheinfels Castle, Travel to Rothenburg - sleep in Rothenburg (2 nt)"

Cochem is a terrific town and a good base with good train connections. Stay there. (However, I don't know if you can really tour Versailles on the same day.) You can daytrip to Beilstein by boat on Day 8 - 1 hr. each way - but only if you have time, and you don't want to miss out on Burg Eltz or just exploring Cochem. Reichsburg Castle in Cochem is interesting too - even if you just walk up for a view and a beer on their terrace. There's an excellent free-flight falconry show on the grounds, 2 or 3 times per day. Day 9 - should be easy to daytrip for Marksburg and your cruise. I'd take the train to Bacharach or Oberwesel and catch the 10:15 (Bach.) or 10:35 (Oberw.) boat downstream to Braubach (saves time); you'll arrive at 12:20 in Braubach, plenty of time for a meal and a tour and you'll see the best part of the river.

David - thanks for your critique. Here is a little more detail on what we plan to do on the days you have questioned:

"Day 4 - travel to Paris, Eiffel Tower at night....maybe LATE at night. Is it really physically possible to reach Paris from where you're starting that day in Switzerland.."

Depart Wengen @ 9:37

Arrive in Paris Lyon @ 16:55

Check in to hotel around 18:00

Our hotel is close to the Eiffel tower, so I would think this would give us plenty of time to eat and visit it, no?

"Day 5 - Rue Cler, museums...for some, a few hours in the Louvre may be enough, but I think many others would want to visit more than one Paris museum, which you don't appear to be budgeting time for."

The plan for two days in Paris is to do some version of Rick's sightseeing highlights: http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/destinations/france/parisitin.htm

I have to do more research on what things appeal most to us and maybe thin it out a bit. A few hours at the Louvre will definitely be enough for us.

"Day 7 - Versailles, travel to Rhine Valley - sleep in ??? (3 nts)...again, I think you can't really "do Versailles" in just a couple hours, you need to give it the better part of a day, and that doesn't leave much time for checking out, getting to the train station, and getting yourself to the Rhine, unless you expect to arrive quite late."

Yes, we plan to arrive late in Cochem. There are places to store your bags at Versailles, correct?

Arrive at Versailles @ 9:00

Depart Versailles @ 15:20

Depart Paris-Est @ 17:09

Arrive in Cochem @ 20:58

"Day 12 - travel to Munich, Hofbrauhaus - sleep in Munich (1 nt)... Day 13 - Munich, Dachau Concentration Camp - Night Train to Venice...again, I don't think you're allowing enough time.."

Day 12
Depart Rothenburg @ 9:06

Arrive in Munich @ 11:37

Day 13
We have all day to do a trip to Dachau. Maybe we're not leaving enough time for Munich itself, but I'm not sure yet what else we're interested in there. I also need to look into possibly stopping at Dachau on the way to Munich on Day 12.

I know we are only staying in Munich one night, but I'm assuming it will feel almost like two nights since our train departs at 21:00 on Day 13.

"I'm not sure that I'd spend so many days (or any days) on Varenna or Bellagio...if you're really going all the way to Venice, I'd skip those and do 2 days in Florence."

Honestly, I am a little concerned about this. Will Varenna or Bellagio give us much of an "Italian experience"? From what I've read so far, here is what I see as the pros and cons of the Lake Como area…

Pros

• will give us a couple days to relax at the end of our trip before we head home

• it is a logical stop geographically between Venice and our flight out of Zurich

Cons

• not much to see/do and we might feel that we "wasted" two days that we could have spent elsewhere in Italy

• will everyone be twice our age?

Florence is a possibility, but it will be quite a train ride to Zurich. Are there any other recommended places to visit in northern Italy?

Pat - thanks for the tips. I have Rue Cler on the itinerary because our hotel is just a couple blocks away and I figured we would do breakfast there that morning. We are definitely getting a museum pass, and I plan to research as much as I can to make our trip to Versailles as efficient as possible. We plan to arrive around 9:00 and leave around 15:00.

Actually, I should point out that I am trying to leave time for Versailles as an option. If the day comes and we feel like just staying in the city, we may end up passing on Versailles.

James - thank you for your input on Germany. I am a little unsure of spending 2 nights in Rothenburg ODT myself. I might knock it back to one night. If we indeed keep our stay there at 2 nights, we will be arriving late the first day and leaving early the last day.

Our stop in Beilstein isn't on our "must do" list, but I thought it might be an option after we visit Burg Eltz in the morning. We'll have to see how we feel that afternoon. Good to know we wouldn't miss much if we couldn't make it.

Russ - great info on the Rhine Valley area. Would you recommend a visit to Rheinfels Castle in St. Goar? I'm trying to decide if it is worth making time for it the morning before we leave for Rothenburg ODT.

Brad - Rheinfels is a ruined castle that you wander around on your own; there's also a museum part that I found interesting. The views from up there are lovely, and there are some scenic walks you can take along the cliffs to the south. But IF you're spending only one night thereafter in Rothenburg, I say skip Rheinfels and get to Rothenburg as early as you possibly can - you'll need some time there.

Brad,

We spent a couple of nights in Rothenburg and enjoyed it but our circumstances were different. We flew into Frankfurt from Phoenix and took a train directly to Rothenburg so while we had some time the first day to sight see, we also had some serious jet lag to deal with. Also it was Christmas time and there were the shops and markets to explore.

I would strongly suggest to write day your itinerary and check the train schedules (try the Swizz or German rail web pages) to see what is doable. That helped me significantly and showed me what was possible. I still had a 12 day/8 city trip across part of Germany and Switzerland which some would say was ambitious but I knew what was realistic.

We missed no trains and had no serious problems. The only adventure came when leaving Fussen and heading to Zurich late at night. The train didn't show up but they put us on buses and we caught another train at a different station and still easily made the connection. It was made more adventurous since neither of us spoke any German and it was later at night.

Rich

Alright, it is still a little rushed at times, but I'm getting very close to finalizing my itinerary...some days are better researched than others. Please let me know if it looks like there are any major problems with what I have planned so far. Thanks so much to everyone for all your help!

Travel times between destinations are italicized. I count ten days that I could use a Eurail pass (marked with an asterisk), so I think we might go with 10 day select saver passes (4 countries) or maybe a 8 day select saver passes with Swiss half fare cards in Switzerland. I still have to do a more detailed cost comparison including reservation fees, etc. Do some trains have A/C in first class but not in second?

Itinerary draft #3...

13.08, Thurs* - Wengen
Arrive in Zurich at 12:40
Depart Zurich at 14:00
Arrive in Wengen at 16:45
Stay at Hotel Schoenegg (3 nts)

14.08, Fri - Wengen
Hike Grutschalp to Murren
Schilthorn
Trummelbach Falls
Visit Lauterbrunnen

15.08, Sat - Wengen
Hike Mannlichen / Kleine Scheidegg
Hike to Staubbachbankli or Leiterhorn

16.08, Sun* - Paris
Depart Wengen at 8:08
Ride Golden Pass Rail from Interlaken to Montreux
Arrive in Paris at 16:55
Visit Eiffel Tower
Stay at Hotel Duquesne Paris (3 nts)

17.08, Mon - Paris
Rick's sightseeing highlights Day 1 with modifications
http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/destinations/france/parisitin.htm

18.08, Tues - Paris
Rick's sightseeing highlights Day 2 with modifications
http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/destinations/france/parisitin.htm

19.08, Wed* - Cochem
Depart Paris Montparnasse at 8:19
Arrive at Versailles Rive Gauche at 8:57
Tour Versailles (~5-6 hrs)
Depart Versailles Rive Gauche at 15:20
Arrive at Paris Montparnasse at 16:00
Depart Paris-Est at 17:09
Arrive in Cochem at 20:58
Stay at Alte Thorschenke (2 nts)

20.08, Thurs - Cochem
Burg Eltz Castle
Drink wine in Cochem and/or Beilstein

21.08, Fri* - Bacharach or St. Goar
Depart Cochem at 7:58
Arrive in Bacharach at 9:30
Rhine Cruise from Bacharach to Braubach
Marksburg Castle
Explore Bacharach
Stay at ??? (1 nt)

22.08, Sat* - Rothenburg ob der Tauber
Rheinfels Castle
Depart St. Goar at 12:21
Arrive in Rothenburg ODT at 17:00
Nightwatchman's Tour
Stay at Gasthof Goldener Greifen (1 nt)

23.08, Sun* - Munich
Explore Rothenburg ODT
Depart Rothenburg ODT between 12:00 and 17:00
Arrive in Munich between 14:30 and 19:30
Stay at King's Hotel First Class (2 nts)

24.08, Mon - Munich
Marienplatz
Hofbrauhaus

25.08, Tues - Night Train
Dachau Concentration Camp
Depart Munich at 21:03
Stay in Night Train Sleeper (1 nt)

26.08, Wed* - Venice
Arrive in Venice at 6:40
Explore Venice
Gondola Ride
Stay at ??? (2 nts)

27.08, Thurs - Venice
Explore Venice
Dinner Pub Crawl

28.08, Fri* - Varenna
Depart Venice at 8:50
Arrive in Varenna at 13:23
Stay at Hotel du Lac (2 nts)

29.08, Sat - Varenna
Visit Bellagio, Menaggio

30.08, Sun* - Luzern
Ferry departs Varenna at 10:15
Bus departs Mennagio at 10:37
Bus arrives in Lugano at 11:24
Walk around Lugano?
Depart Lugano at 14:12
Arrive in Luzern at 16:41
Stay at ??? (1 nt)

31.08, Mon*
Depart Luzern at 11:10
Arrive in Zurich at 12:13
flight departs Zurich at 14:30

Brad,

You might already know these things but make sure you email (or call) and receive confirmation from hotels on your dates and also when you will be arriving, especially on later arrivals. This is especially true for smaller places that are not staffed 24/7 as hotels in the US usually are. When we left Heidelburg a gentleman was freezing outside because he had arrived at 6am and the hotel was not yet open. They will make arrangements if you let them know ahead of time.

Also I'm super careful with international flying and always arrive at the airport 3 hrs prior to my flight time so depending on your comfort level and past experiences you might want to get to the airport a bit earlier.

Have fun.

There is no way I would arrive in Zurich at 12:15 for a flight that leaves at 2:30... are you nuts.. It takes time to get from train station to airport( or does train go to airport??) and since one is supposed to be at airport 3 hrs ahead,, well, you will have 2 hours or less. Hope train is not late either,, with your tight schedule even being 10 minutes behind is not good.

Get an earlier train to Zurich.

Your trip is very doable but I agree with Pat that you would need a lot more time to get to the airport.
We spent a night in Rothenburg and that was plenty to see what we planned to. Munich is great to walk around and relax. I am sure you won't regret spending an extra night there.
Keep Versailles open as Paris is so wonderful, you might want to spend more time there.
I would sleep in St Goar as it would make it easier to visit Rheinfels castle. Keep in mind the trains between St Goad and Bacharach are slow and run every hour. When we were in that area last year, we kept missing them by a few minutes and spent too much time waiting around the train station.