EU to propose digital vaccine certificates, in time for the summer holidays

Another article explaining the 'green pass' vaccine certificate: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-propose-green-pass-vaccine-certificate-this-month/a-56736273

a negative PCR test, or proof of recovery from coronavirus.

That will still be expensive and complicate things. I guess we shouldn't have expected that a vaccine passport would be a simple solution to open the world again.

I think the key phrase is in the first sentence of the article: "that could allow Europeans"....the target audience is Europeans, which is great if you are European and want to travel in Europe or elsewhere. Spain and Greece will have a conniption if they don't get British tourists, etc. Oh wait...forgot about Brexit. But have no doubt "holiday makers" will find a way to frolic in the sun.

The current working idea would be a forgery-proof universal "green pass" in the form of a QR code that could be carried on paper or on a smartphone.

@Agnes - but it is not immediately clear if it would only be for Europeans. I don't see why this could not be repurposed for non-EU tourists visiting the EU, like the British. Hopefully more details will be announced after the European Commission meeting on March 17.

This has nothing to do with citizens of all countries worldwide that are not part of the EU.

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Monday said the EU executive would propose a digital vaccination passport later this month.
Members states will then decide whether to press ahead with the scheme to allow each other to recognize citizens' proof of vaccination. ( from the link Carlos provided)

Clearly this applies only to EU Member States.

IF they can agree on a standard for 'internal' usage, it will be interesting to see what they develop for all of us 'outsiders'.
(The EU executive aims to present its plans for a “digital green pass” on March 17 and to cooperate with international organisations to ensure that its system also works beyond the European Union.)

Getting the system set up and issuing certificates would take at least three months, the commission said. It was not immediately clear what legislative and technical steps would be required, nor whether the system would extend beyond European Union citizens.

The commission said there should be a way to scale it up globally, in cooperation with the World Health Organization. But when pressed for further details, Mr. Wigand asked for “a little bit of patience,” explaining that “this is all very fresh.”

From a NY Times article on this topic - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/eu-vaccine-passport.html

The span from an 'idea' to an 'executable plan' can be deceptively long.

For bird, its about 6 miles from the Grand Canyon North Rim Visitor Center to the South Rim Center.

For us bipedal mammals its a 300 mile ( ~500km) drive .

I would not be surprised if the EU commission takes the more mammalian route ( although it seems some may hold the belief they are bird-brained) to execute the concept.

Not packing my bags just yet.

Can anyone explain how we (in the US) are tracking people who are getting vaccinated.? Most people get the majority of their vaccinations through their health care provider and and then if you need proof of a vaccine for school or a job or travel you get a letter from your provider. But most of the covid vaccines are being given by mass state or county vac sites. A few people I know who have gotten a vaccine got a little piece of cardboard stating the date and type of vaccine they received but this hardly seems like it would serve as proof for something like international travel.

The current working idea would be a forgery-proof universal "green pass" in the form of a QR code that could be carried on paper or on a smartphone

That sounds great, but then what is the proof to get the QR code? That is what I would find interesting.

Real world case...My wife works in a Pharmacy, so qualified for a vaccination, she was in another State when she became eligible, and that State allowed her to get the shots there. She was able to get one shot at a Walgreens, then the second at another Walgreens several towns away. Yes, she has a record of the vaccination, the Pharmacy printed off the CDC "card" onto copy paper and cut it out with scissors. The two places hand scribbled in the dates, type of vaccine, and location (one sort of illegibly says "Walgreens Crowley"). I suppose there is some sort of record she received the vaccine, but getting something "less sketchy" would seem difficult. For those who received vaccines at some stadium or ball park, I suppose even more so. She did not have to show a DL, Passport, or provide a SSN, just Name, address, and maybe the name of the pharmacy she works at or uses for prescriptions.

Maybe her scrap of paper is good enough, I can imagine someone thinking they could probably print out the slip of paper and scribble in some info (Not me of course, even if I had air tickets in hand...like I do); but I can not right now see the link from Pharmacy vaccine records, to secure health records, to a National database, to a Tamperproof QR code.

My wife will now be giving the vaccine, so maybe some of the "behind the scenes" system will be revealed, but I am struggling with the verification part of these "Passport" schemes right now.

"For bird, its about 6 miles from the Grand Canyon North Rim Visitor Center to the South Rim Center.

For us bipedal mammals its a 300 mile ( ~500km) drive ."

For some it is a 20-30 mile walk from rim to rim via the Canyon.

I am one of those people who received their 2 shot vaccine from a local grocery pharmacy.

I needed to give the pharm tech my DL, and insurance info for registration into the system...the vaccine was free.

After the shot I received the cardboard card which the pharmacist had entered the date, dose, vaccine name and lot # as well as store identifier. He also gave me the CDC handout to register in their V-Safe system to be tracked daily for 2 weeks ..then once a week. My second shot was from same pharmacy.

I can pull up my vaccine info from the V-Safe app and it shows my registrant #, name & vaccine info. I also have the cardboard card with same info except the registrant #...I have no idea if the V-Safe app info would be acceptable but it makes me feel better to know it’s there should the cardboard record disappear or not be useful.

I do not understand why they would consider this. There are so far insufficient data on whether vaccinated people can still transmit the virus.

https://theconversation.com/can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-coronavirus-155095

People who have been fully vaccinated are still advised to wear masks, maintain social distance, etc., for the protection of others. We intend to do that.

Everyone I know who has been vaccinated has been given the “cardboard card” with the date and lot number of the vaccine they received, but is this really documentation? It could be so easily forged.

And what does the Grand Canyon have to do with this? I thought it was more than 6 miles across, as the “bird” flies<but I suppose it depends on where you measure. Walking it took us 23 miles from rim to rim, down the North Kaibab trail and up the Bright Angel trail, with an overnight at the bottom. A beautiful hike, but not for everyone.

The green pass article says:

France and Germany has shown some reluctance about vaccination passports that would give individuals rights over those who have not been vaccinated. Officials have said this could create de facto vaccination obligation and could prove discriminatory

What’s the potential discrimination issue? They’re not saying you have to be vaccinated. After all, you don’t have to travel internationally. in the same way that you don’t have to get a driver’s license, or pass a test, because you don’t have to drive.

Actually, having a digital/QR code on a smartphone would be discriminatory to anyone who doesn’t choose to have, or can’t afford a smartphone. What if the battery in your phone dies - that doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t vaccinated. Now a vaccination stamp in an actual passport, that might work.

Spain and Greece will have a conniption if they don't get British tourists, etc. Oh wait...forgot about Brexit.

What about Brexit? Greece and Spain have already stated that they will welcome British tourists who can prove they've received the vaccination. In fact, relying on the sclerotic EU to organise things would simply render summer travel impossible. At least dealing with the UK direct would actually get things done, it's one of the primary reasons for leaving the EU.

The EU have formally stated that the UK can participate in the scheme. They'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they didn't.

Progress keeps coming.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22291959/covid-vaccines-transmission-protect-spread-virus-moderna-pfizer

Progress keeps coming.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22291959/covid-vaccines-transmission-protect-spread-virus-moderna-pfizer

Not for the EU it isn't. We're now seeing that several more countries are going it alone and sourcing vaccines outside of the EMA (European Medicines Agency) with Austria and Denmark breaking ranks. Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz on Monday night said that Austria would work with Israel and Denmark on second generation coronavirus vaccines and “no longer rely on the EU in the future”.

Thousands of EU citizens are dying unnecessarily due to incompetence within the EU whether that's from refusing to secure vaccine supplies in time, bitter spats with Astrazeneca, recklessly endangering the Good Friday Agreement and outright lies about the efficacy of the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine which has now left the likes of France and Germany sitting on millions of unused doses and vaccine centres managing to vaccinate 4oo people out of a capacity of 3,000. As is typical with the EU Commission no-one is held accountable, it really is scandalous.

Whilst the UK is on track to come fully out of lockdown by June 21st, if not before, the continent is experiencing a number of third waves of infection and an increase in lockdown measurements. Whilst the EU Commission is open to the concept of vaccine passports it is opposed to the discriminatory aspect of them. Currently under 18's are not given the vaccine and there are those who are unable to have the vaccine due to medical reasons. Are those two groups going to be unable to travel?

There are hints that any vaccine passport would not be restricted to European citizens so it may be possible for US citizens to visit however with the potential that many countries would be under strict lockdown measures these would have a major impact on the enjoyment of visiting. It may well be that the UK becomes the best option for travel later this year.

I still have everything in place for my trip to Spain in early June and if there are restrictive measures in place I don't envisage it having much of an impact on me. I'm travelling alone and intend to do very little more than lounge around the pool with a library of books. A week of solitude in the sun will be a perfect antidote.

I suspect we will see more breaking of the ranks in other ways. Croatia, Portugal and Greece opening for tourism possibly; while Hungary stays shut longer then even Germany. Who knows.....

The few countries that are now accepting evidence of vaccination don't care where you come from or who did the vaccinations so I don't imagine that the EU will put restrictions on it either.

Our issue in the US is that our vaccine documentation is minimal. I received, and I assume everyone is receiving, a 3 x 4 inch card with some hand filled in information. Will anyone accept it? What if you loose it? I have already created a few notarized copies; but again, will anyone accept them? A few have pointed out that they are easy to counterfeit, but I doubt more than a very, very, very few will actually do that. And if they want, there are blank cards online at government websites (so the providers can download them and use them).

We too are issued with a piece of card with a handwritten date on it but I've also just checked my NHS records which I have online access for and there is a record of my vaccination on there. In that respect, despite my objections to a vaccine passport, it would be easy to create an app that links to a person's NHS record that will provide evidence of vaccination.

EU vaccine passport: An ethical and legal minefield? (from today)
- https://www.dw.com/en/eu-vaccine-passport-an-ethical-and-legal-minefield/a-56747519

According to the Commission, the certificate's scope will go beyond documenting the vaccination status and include a person's broader medical history. "We will also be looking at other categories of information to avoid discrimination of citizens, such as test results and statements of recovery," Commission spokesman Christian Wigand said on Monday.

"While diligence and scrutiny are of the essence on this issue, the Commission is under pressure to expedite its plans, not least to shed its image of hesitant bureaucratic behemoth. In that respect, Europe could do worse than look to Israel, says Mills, who noted, "When the 'green passport' was introduced in Israel on February 21, access was granted across a wide range of age groups."

Interestingly the majority of Germans seem quite keen on the idea of a COVID vaccination certificate, according to recent polling
- https://www.dw.com/en/most-germans-keen-on-covid-vaccination-passport/a-56723289

And this as well:

And it may also apply to countries that aren’t members of the European Union. The EU Commission yesterday said it would work with the World Health Organisation to expand the scheme to other nations. The official spokesperson for British prime minister Boris Johnson added that the UK would discuss collaborating with the EU on its new ‘vaccine passport’ plans.

Full details of the scheme will be released later this month, and the ‘passports’ are unlikely to be launched until June at the earliest. But the fact that an overseas trip might be possible again later this year is – finally! – the positive travel news we all needed to hear right now.

From - https://www.timeout.com/news/europe-is-officially-launching-a-vaccine-passport-030221

JC, I am just not that worried about cheaters.

For the US to participate, wouldn't there have to be a national tracking system / database, and administrative program to support it? Not something currently in place or funded, and probably not easily cobbled together. I'm not saying its a bad idea, but we seem to balk at any hint of centralized medical information sharing at a national level - other than the chip that's getting implanted (joke).

That appointment reminder card (thats how I heard CDC folks refer to it) seems to have no value as official proof of anything. James, what is Romania accepting as proof for non EU travelers?

JC, I am just not that worried about cheaters.

Neither am I, I mentioned the prospect of an app linked to the NHS database merely as an observation of how easy it would be to develop an app for a vaccine passport not as an opportunity to be accessed for nefarious purposes.

The cards we're given are supposed to be a record that we've had the vaccine despite it being recorded on everyone's NHS record. It also bears the wording "please keep in your purse or wallet" which has led to claims that there is an intention to require such cards as proof of vaccination to enter pubs, restaurants etc however it has been identified, as you have done, that such cards are easily open to abuse and fakery.

There are vaccine IT tracking systems in place for every link in the overall chain.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/reporting/overview/IT-systems.html

I bet there will still be major data cleaning to do and interoperability issues.....so just because every dose will be accounted for and linked to a person doesn't mean there's some internationally accepted travel credential that these systems were designed to generate on the fly easily and quickly.

Re: Romania....one still has to quarantine in Romania for 10 days in addition to RT-PCR test.
http://washington.mae.ro/en/local-news/2180

Carlos, thank you for the article links and for getting a conversation started. At least it's a beginning. We have to start somewhere. It's impossible for any one country to have all the answers but admirable that some are in a planning phase.. I am hopeful that since the EU has begun planning that the Brits and US will do so as well and at some point plan in conjunction with them.

Agnes, I am curious how the HIPPA laws work with all of the potential data sharing....... Really dont know.

As for Romania,

The following are exempt from quarantine:

• persons who have been vaccinated against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including the second dose, and for whom at least 10 days have passed since its entry into Romania.

That last sentence I take to mean you have to have taken the second vaccine dose 10 days prior to entry into Romania. That makes sense on some levels.

There are at least a half dozen EU countries just chomping at the bit to open for tourism. Maybe a vaccine will give them the cover they need to make it happen.

BUT, some of this stuff is complicated so I can make a mistake.

That looks like quite a bad translation from Romanian, but I'm assuming James is right about what the policy is meant to be.

As far as letting North Americans in to Europe, I would think the US and Canada would have to reciprocate. Infection rates may improve enough by mid-summer to make that happen anyway.

If we in the US faced the EU citizen's dilemma of only being allowed to cross state lines if we had a vaccine passport, one might feel differently about the discriminatory nature of it.

Wally, in the past year, I haven’t headed up to Wyoming or Nebraska, over to Kansas, down to Oklahoma, New Mexico or Arizona, or over to Utah, not that I’d crossed into any of them in the past 6 years actually. But if proving my vaccination was required, and I wanted (or needed) to go, rules are rules. It’s not like a mandatory piercing, tattoo, branding, or cutting off a body part, but a sensible, modern medical procedure.

Maybe somebody living in Connecticut who absolutely needs to be in New York couldn’t avoid crossing into another state, but, again, why not get a shot, especially going to a very populous location?

For centuries, most Europeans didn’t go to another country (or kingdom), and some never strayed more than a very short distance from their homes. People can, and do, travel farther now. Things are different in this modern age, and a vaccination against a modern viral threat is a scientifically reasonable, modern approach. Discriminatory, and unfair to people who won’t comply? No, they’re welcome to stay with the Dark Ages, and stay home.

Cyn; I guess I missed Wally's post. But is he comparing independent country states in the EU to the territorial states in the US? I know the word "state" is proper for each, and while I think a number of countries, like Germany possibly, might be welcoming to the idea that Slovakia is to Germany what Wisconsin is to Idaho, that isn't quite the situation ................ yet.

Agnes, as I went through the links you provided, I didn't see any data system that links vaccination to any newly developed or existing federal medical record keeping for individuals. Maybe at state or local level. As far as I can tell, no one is asked for a Social Security Number when registering for a vaccine, for example. A quick glance at a drivers license is all I witnessed for confirmation. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm not seeing that happening as a priority right now. There's not even agreement here, on what the criteria for safe travel should be. And to stretch even further, Im not sure facilitating travelers is in CDC mission statement. Cross agency linking of data doesn't automatically happen without political direction and funding.

James, HIPAA (I was certified for several years) only applies to US health care providers and administrative staff, not the general public or other authorities. It doesnt prohibit a non-provider from asking, or you from telling, nor does it require you to share.

Stan, see diagram on Page 3 and subsequent pages for data descriptions. I concur that none of this is for the purpose of re-enabling travel, but everything to do with just getting the vaccine distributed, people inoculated, and reporting related to the vaccine effort. The US doesn't have a single patient identifier like other countries. There was a decision made not to use Social Security Numbers. I have no idea how any travel "passports" are going to work - but, then again, I don't see any need for them. If a country as a whole reaches a certain level of vaccination that's acceptable to another (and vice versa), why would additional vetting need to be done on an individual basis? The problem is the timeline it will take for each country to "get there" relative to others.
https://www.nga.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Vaccine-Distribution-and-Administration-Systems-and-Data-Flow.pdf

Wally, I got your point completely. I expect there are people who can't, for whatever reason, get the vaccine (and kids too for the foreseeable future). Using vaccination status as a gateway is OK as a tool for slowly reopening things and ensuring safety for those not at risk, but I don't believe it needs to be a permanent gating criteria that brands people as stuck in the "Dark Ages" for their entire life, unable to participate in any social activities (not just travel).

Carlos, thank you for the article links and for getting a conversation started. At least it's a beginning. We have to start somewhere. It's impossible for any one country to have all the answers but admirable that some are in a planning phase.

@Lindy - Exactly, I've mostly held off thus far with posting Covid-19 related things, until I was fairly confident that substantive and concrete moves were being made to restart Europe's international tourism industry. I have a strong feeling that yesterday's news was just that, a first albeit meaningful step to getting things going again.

I just hope the conversation on this post can maintain its civility and constructiveness.

...persons who have been vaccinated against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including the second dose, and for whom at least 10 days have passed since its entry into Romania.

That last sentence I take to mean you have to have taken the second vaccine dose 10 days prior to entry into Romania. That makes sense on some levels.

Precisely, the original Romanian requires that: "the person has been vaccinated....including the second dose" and that "there have passed at least 10 days from the administration (of the vaccine) until the date of embarkation."

Americans will have enough doses for all adults by May according to Biden. States are finally getting up to speed on getting shots in arms. Good news for sure. By July there will be many more travel options for Americans, no question.

Is Europe keeping up with the U.S.?

I learned long ago not to argue with Agnes unless you like to lose. Her reasoning is always spot on.

No, Europe (with a very few exceptions) is nowhere near keeping up with the US:

Our World in Data (website originally identified by Agnes, I think)

The good news about the big push here in the US (use of the Defense Production Act, etc.) is that once manufacturing is ramped up, the production lines (I hope and assume) will not be shut down when the US contracts are fulfilled. Beyond that point, the vaccine can flow to other countries.

Beyond that point, the vaccine can flow to other countries.

I really hope it flows down south to Mexico. It is a poor country, unlike Europe, and could really use the help. Plus, it is the # 1 destination for our US international travelers and a lovely place with kind and friendly people who are suffering a lot. Mexico needs some love (more than just tourism $ from all the people streaming down there now goofing off, not wearing masks, and treating it as a guilt-free party zone where they can escape their pent up tensions back home). After Mexico (or alongside Mexico) our neighbor to the north - beautiful Canada - should get some love too. We have two great neighbors and it's in our self-interest that they "catch up". Of course, there are countless other countries that need help even more through the WHO/COVAX initiative, else they won't get any vaccines at all.

BigMike - you make me smile 😃 (and laugh out loud)

I recall reading that Canada had placed orders for vaccine doses that exceeds the total population. Not sure they need 'leftovers' from the US

Like many developed countries, Canada ordered a lot of vaccine (as has the US), but deliveries have been very slow. On a per-capita basis, Canada has administered less than 1/4 as many doses as the US.

Anything done to expedite production in any country has the potential to help many other countries.

Agnes!!!

I really hope it flows down south to Mexico. It is a poor country,
unlike Europe, and could really use the help. Plus, it is the # 1
destination for our US international travelers and a lovely place with
kind and friendly people

Do you mean you want the vaccine to go to American tourist destinations to further white capitalist exploitation? Shame on you!!!! Seriously, me too. I live near the border and its pretty rough down there right now. Besides the sooner they get vaccinated the sooner I can go to Cancun...... I mean, the more lives that will be saved...... vs Ethiopia for instance.

You realize that I am yanking your leg. But it brings to mind an argument I had with a very close friend who comes from a country that is a known supporter of international terrorism. He noted that I support a number of international charities; all in predominately white and Christian states and suggested that I had some sort of subliminal racist thing going on. I suggested we tend to spend our money on things we personally relate to and are brought to our attention. But still, it was very thought provoking and I now recognize the need to dig a little deeper when looking for places to do good.

AND this has noting to do with the topic. Sorry.

Is Europe keeping up with the U.S.?

Well, the UK is ahead of the US

Is Europe keeping up with the U.S.?

It isn't a competition

our neighbor to the north - beautiful Canada - should get some love
too. We have two great neighbors and it's in our self-interest that
they "catch up".

We will catch up. Canada is expected to have vaccinated everybody who wants one by end of September. Things slowed to a crawl for about a month because of production delays that lead to delivery delays. Like most countries we have politicians on both ends of the political spectrum pointing fingers at each other for bad decisions that caused this.

Slow but steady, the process is improving. My 89 year old Mom finally got her first dose yesterday and my 24 year old son who works in healthcare got his last week. Me, my wife and my daughter are likely in the last phase.

President Biden is pledging $4 billion for international vaccine efforts.

There will be enough vaccines for all Americans by May, and states are getting much better at the logistics. West Virginia is crushing it. If we can figure it out, anyone can.

Perhaps the U.S. will be able to ship more vaccines abroad to help other countries. This would be in the spirit of American altruism.

Vaccinated person here. I not only have the CDC card, but the day after my second shot received an email with a link to an electronic medical record that not only included the date and place of my doses, but also the carton number and vial number of my vaccine, the exact time it was administered, and the name of the person who gave me each shot. Perhaps this is being done at the state level, but I was impressed. I hold out hope for a vaccination passport.
Cynthia

Good to hear the UK is doing well. Heck, a little competition can be a good thing.

The British government said first doses for every adult by July 31. Perhaps that time frame will be moved up, as in the U.S.

I also have a CDC card and electric card.

BigMikeWestByGodVirginia; that attitude worked before participation trophies. But I am with you. Nothing produces results like competition.

Unlike a 100m sprint in the Olympics, here no one "wins" unless we all win. Unless we can also help out those less fortunate countries, Covid will always have a reservoir from which to bounce back from.

BigMikeWestByGodVirginia; I heard, and I read some articles that support it, that the vaccine was taking 110 days a batch to make; but recently they announced that they have gotten that down to 60 days. Does that mean that the shot I got two days ago went into production in November? Before it was even approved? Wow!!! 60 days should be a big improvement.

By the way, my second dose took 10 minutes. Hundreds of people, but we barely ever stopped walking. A magnificent machine run by a local hospital in a shopping mall.

They absolutely started producing vaccine before approval. That's where some of the financial commitment from the US government went.

Really? That was clever. You mean we would still be waiting if someone hadn't dreamed that up? Amazing. I would have bet against that sort of logic existing in a government.

Oh, and when I got my second jab it was amazing to see the medical workers going to the parking lot to assist people into the building and thru the line. Pretty sweet.

James E, it is no secret that the vaccine producers started manufacturing doses before approval. It was a smart thing to do, and has benefitted us all.

James E.: The vaccination situation in the U.S. is certainly accelerating and this gives us reason for optimism and perhaps some impatience.

Good to hear about your vaccine. My wife got her second one yesterday and has not been feeling so great since then. This too shall pass.

Actually, I am sort of amazed at how well its going. From the accelerated development, to the pre approval production to the roll out in most states. Not perfect, but read the opinions 9 months ago, they had predicted 2023 and beyond. If in the beginning it took 110 days to produce a batch of vaccine (now reportedly streamlined to 60 days) that means we are just now using up the vaccine that went into production before the date of approval. What incredible foresight, planning and risk evaluation.

It was obviously the right thing to do from early on. The astronomical economic costs of the pandemic were clear to see, if unquantifiable. If we had dallied on vaccine-development and production, we'd have spent a lot more money on economic-stimulus payments as things dragged on. And that's aside from the psychological wear and tear, the impact on education, etc.

We have overseas trip planned for July (safari in E. Africa) and Oct (Italy). Both my wife and self have been double dosed and we are ready to travel. Even before vaccinated, we felt that masking and not exposing ourselves unnecessarily was wise, even with the low mortality rate for health people our age (less than 1%), There was still risk involved. Why go out in the middle of a lightening storm?

Wait, we still get in our cars and drive and I read the local crime report in my newspaper, the number of DUI's still amaze me. Driving is probably the most dangerous thing we do these days. We have enjoyed dining out at local restaurants about twice a month.
It is all about risk. Yes, COVID-19 is more dangerous than the regular flu, but it is definitely not ebola or the black plague.

The tourist and travel industry should open as soon as it can deal with the millions of people able to travel because of vaccines. We are looking at Israel for Spring 2022.

"It is all about risk. Yes, COVID-19 is more dangerous than the regular flu, but it is definitely not ebola or the black plague."

Forgive me being pedantic, but COVID-19 is far worse than either. Although individual mortality rates aren't nearly as high, transmissabilty and the high numbers of people who become infected mean very large numbers of deaths. As an individual, your chances of surviving COVID-19 as an average person are good - and yet 2.6 million people have already died.
It has killed twice as many people in the last year as died from TB. 50% more than AIDS.

Yersinia pestis (causitive organism of Bubonic/pneumonic plague) still kills people every year, but it's easily treatable with antibiotics (the last outbreak as far as I know was in Madagascar with killed just over 200)

Ebola is deadly - Mortality rate of 25-30% but it is not particularly transmissable (it kills too quickly to allow much opportunity for spreading). I had colleagues working out in labs in Sierra Leone during 2014-15

geovagriffith; you stepped in it!!! The real problem is that this is a complex 3 dimensional medical, multidisciplinary scientific and social issue. No set of numbers has any value out of context will all the other variables.

But in concept, I agree. Make a personal risk analysis and then do what you will do.

TimW,
You made some good points. However, I will stick with my post:
1) First, I was looking at COVID-19 as I am today, a person the enjoys traveling and living my life, not hiding in fear. COVID-19 is still no where as deadly for those who contract the disease. Looking at the RISK of exposing yourself to the disease by travel as an individual, not the number of worldwide fatalities, the risk, even without vaccines is still low.
2) Yes, COVID-19 had caused more deaths than ebola, typhoid, measles and smallpox and other diseases. Deaths from measles and typhoid can number in the hundreds of thousands a year. Still, this is less than COVID-19, but the difference is that COVID-19 was new and science didn't know it that well. More importantly, there were no vaccines for the virus, but we had vaccines and treatment for the others. NOW, we do have vaccines for COVID-19 that are extremely effective. The Pfizer vaccine that I took is 94% effective.

James E.: Could you give us the dumbed down version of what you just wrote? I'm a simple man.

BigMikeWestByGodVirginia I haven't got a clue. But I stand behind it.

Problem with covid has never been the risk of the individual person. The problem has always been the rusk to the healthcare system. So if you like to travel that’s just great. But don’t be surprised if the country you are going to doesn’t want you to come because they don’t have ICU beds for you in case you get sick. That’s the real problem. Yes you’re probably going to live but you might need three weeks in an ICU. And right now we don’t have a good enough idea of who will and who won’t need that care. We’ve got a better idea than we did a year ago, but you will still find that perfectly healthy person who runs 20 miles a week who winds up spending six weeks in intensive care. I know him. No underlying health issues that anyone’s been able to find but wound up in the ICU for six weeks. So countries are understandably not all that excited about having people come who are going to need precious medical resources. I think the risk of spreading it etc. is not as big as the fact they just don’t want people out and about because of the stress on the healthcare system

Problem with covid has never been the risk of the individual person.
The problem has always been the rusk to the healthcare system. So if
you like to travel that’s just great. But don’t be surprised if the
country you are going to doesn’t want you to come because they don’t
have ICU beds for you in case you get sick. That’s the real problem.

That would be a problem. I suggest that no one go anyplace that had not put out the welcome mat. That is at least some sort of indicator that they are prepared. But to US Standards? The places that are currently open for tourism, probably not.

On the subject. I have family in Honduras. One, at age 91 contracted COVID. A week in the hospital and she if home doing well. Two others in their late 50's and somewhat overweight, also ended up in the hospital, now doing fine at home. Then I have a number of relatives in rural Texas who work in the health care field. Three of them have come down with COVID, recovered and back in the hospital. One, who works COVID units exclusively and has for a year now, never did show symptoms, but I bet she had it.

You are not wrong at all. But with this being such a scattered hit or miss, no one knows, stay locked up till tomorrow or for another year affair. I just decided time to put the mask on and get on with life.

Yes you’re probably going to live but you might need three weeks in an
ICU. And right now we don’t have a good enough idea of who will and
who won’t need that care.

Oh, we have some idea. Of the more than 500,000 US deaths, about 12,000 have been under the age of 45. Now, does that mean there is some correlation between age, deaths and ICU numbers? Only Agnes knows that. And I didn't go looking for the numbers but a very, very, very substantial portion of those who died had rather severe underlying conditions.

So countries are understandably not all that excited about having
people come who are going to need precious medical resources. I think
the risk of spreading it etc. is not as big as the fact they just
don’t want people out and about because of the stress on the
healthcare system

And in that situation we should all stay away. I am `100% with you on that.

Agnes said it best.

The Hot Wife is considering us buying a condo at Del Boca Vista in Florida. Anyone have any insights?

Agnes always get the facts right.

BigMike,
Can't give you insight into that community, but we live in SE Georgia on the coast, near Florida.
Florida has a lot to offer and its many areas are very different from the others.
I am not very fond of southernmost Florida. Personally, I would never want to live there, but the middle of the state, around Cape Canaveral and south to Vero Beach, or north to St. Augustine would be my preference.

Ha ha, Big Mike is pulling peoples' legs...no Del Boca Vista for you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N4LoClqHsY

Agnes, it seemed like a great place on TV. It has to exist, perhaps under a different name? Yes! Boca Raton at Deerfield Beach.

geovagriffith, we lived in Melbourne, Florida for four years. It seemed like we were living in a sauna for seven months out of the year. It might be better to just rent a place in the winter?

Maybe The Villages. I like the theme song in the commercials.

I have lived mainly in hot climates most of my life, Georgia, Texas, Arizona and Saudi Arabia. Virginia/Maryland was in-between. Germany was cold most of the year with short Summers.

Growing up in Georgia, we didn't have air conditioning. Houses had tile floors and big windows. We cooled with fans. It didn't seem so bad then.
Living on Coastal Georgia is great, yes it is hot in the Summer and humid, but our Winters are more like what people in the north have during Fall. When you grow up in a hot climate, you get used to it. I consider 80 degrees nice, but in New England, that is HOT.

Also, as I have aged, I appreciate warmer weather more.

geovagriffith--We used to live in that same area:) We were stationed in St Mary's in the early 90's. Being from the PNW, the weather was a culture shock to say the least, lol.

Carol--That is a very real concern that I don't think enough people take into consideration.

Lola--That is our same concern, that we may unknowingly pass the virus along. A year ago Jan. when my husbands coworker caught it, we are sure that is what my husband had, but of course could not get tested. I was fine though, but do worry that I may have been an asymptomatic carrier. I was in direct close contact with the friend as well, a handful of times, just days before he was admitted to ICU. My husband is fully vaccinated and I have my 1st one, but we are still so cautious. Did you by chance get an email after your 2nd one with all of the vaccination specifics? Someone above mentioned they did, but not sure if this is a state to state thing. My husband lost his card before we even got home from his 2nd shot, but thankfully he took a picture of it in the car. I am wondering if there is an email that he may have gotten that would provide further proof for here in WA.

@Carol. I've been saying the same thing to people. My wife and I have had the vaccine and I think we could go to Europe and probably be safe from Covid.... but what if we just get "Normal" sick or an accident? Over worked staff, crowded facilities and wait times. We don't need European travel that bad right now.

BMWBGV, Del Boca Vista? I am so disappointed in you.

I knew it was time for me to retire, when most of my (younger) co-workers weren't getting my Seinfeld references, and just assumed I was losing it.

Iceland is extending entry to travelers from all countries with proof of vaccine.

Quoted from The Guardian:

"The policy, already in place since 20 January for visitors from anywhere in the passport-free Schengen area, will be extended to all arrivals regardless of their country of origin, the ministry said in a statement on Tuesday."

Msn.com has a US News and World Report article with some information about the EU's digital-vaccine certificate efforts that I haven't seen stated so clearly before. This particular article doesn't say anything about recognizing certificates issued by other countries for the purpose of allowing travel into the EU.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/european-union-announces-coronavirus-passport-to-allow-free-travel-in-bloc/ar-BB1eGl2M?ocid=msedgntp

To avoid running afoul of the copyright police, I'm going to paraphrase some key points:

• The certificate will be digital proof that someone has been vaccinated, tested negative or recovered. It will be free and will be accepted in all EU countries.

• It will be in digital or paper format--the latter possibly being necessary if a person is vaccinated before the digital system rolls out. The certificate will include name, date of birth, date of issuance, information about vaccine/test result/recovery, and unique identifier. A QR code will provide security and protection against counterfeiting. The health data will be stored only in the country of origin; the EU system will just connect to the individual systems to verify the certificates and will store only validity data.

• Certificates will exempt EU citizens or those legally staying and residing in the bloc from travel restrictions. Countries continuing to require those with certificates to get tested or quarantine must notify the EU and other members and justify their policies.

• The digital infrastructure to support the certificates will be set up by summer. The EU is working with the WHO to have the certificates recognized elsewhere.

This went under the radar, but a few days ago, the European Commissioner for Internal Market revealed the prototype of the EU Vaccine Passport that's in the works, set to be launched in June 2021:

"The EU Commission brought forward its proposal for the creation of a Digital Green Certificate in a bid to restore travel amid COVID-19 for those who have been vaccinated against the virus. The same document can also be used to prove that the holder has recovered from COVID-19. Those who have not been vaccinated, nor have they recovered from the virus, can use the document to present their COVID-19 test results. By including all three situations in one document, the Commission intends to avoid the discrimination of non-vaccinated persons."

You can see how the prototype will look here (March 30, 2021): https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-vaccine-chief-says-vaccine-passports-to-be-launched-in-june-unveils-document-prototype/

Stan, you're fine, but unfortunately there are NO openings at Del Boca Vista. Look elsewhere. Ours is an exclusive community, sir.

I'll be in Iceland this summer while this board is still cowering over COVID worries. Happy trails, folks! Put a mattress over your head in case the sky is falling.

Carlos, why do they need a vaccine passport? Word is that the EU won't be accepting guests till 2023?

. . . . and then there is the governor of Florida:

Florida gov bans vaccine passports

2023? Let’s all get real. The EU needs tourist more than tourists wanting to go travel. They economically cannot go on til 2023 as things are.

Other than talk/ plans/ ideas/ concepts, there is no evidence of a uniform, standardized US vaccination credential or passport that is 1) ready-to-go, 2) will interface with anything proposed by the EU, and 3) and has been accepted globally, much less in the EU. Instead, there are a bunch of products out there sponsored by different parties (like the airline industry - IATA) which are being piloted under various contexts (like specific flight segments on certain airlines). As usual, everything in the US is fragmented, there are no standards, and it's up to the private sector to figure this out somehow.

With the way the vaccine is rolling out here, and the trend of our numbers, I suspect that soon US citizens may be more attractive guests in Spain than Germans. But not before 2023. But who knows?

Both wife and I got first dose of pfizer last week, and were given cards to show our innoc agencies for the second shot. However neither of our cards have any sort of scannable QR code. We just got a separate alpha-numeric appointment codes via email, which isn't on the card we got. So it doesn't look like anything is going into a central, national, Data Base.

Plan to travel, to England from USA, sometime in late 2022 or 2023. I know that is a long way out. And I also know that maybe this is a stupid question.
I'm wondering what anyone is, or is planning on using as verification of full vacc. And for those that are traveling right now after vaccination, what documentation are you using? I can't see any entry control point accepting this we got card as PROOF, since its something I could print out and easily forge - not that I would do that. Are we just guessing that borders will be open or closed, regardless of any proof an individual might have?

Francis, yes there has been a ton of discussion here on this forum on the subject, including this whole thread. Search and you'll find several previous discussions. Unfortunately, its mostly speculation, assumptions, guessing, hoping, and suggestions. But nobody knows. Each country will have to decide what they will accept as evidence, and its even an assumption that vaccination status would be the universal deciding factor. Plus there needs to be international agreement, not a unilateral decision on the part of the US. The white card system wasn't designed or intended to be a travel document, but its all we got, so far. There are still too many unknowns. Most of the discussion in the US is about a passport for internal domestic use.

And yes, fake cards are already a problemfake cards

Carlos, why do they need a vaccine passport? Word is that the EU won't be accepting guests till 2023?

I assume to facilitate a safe and orderly return to mass tourism, so to avoid the chaos that occurred in Florida last week.

Plus, it’s an opportunity for more jobs! Vaccine Passport Inspector, or VPI.

FWIW, I got my vaccinations at a mass vaccination clinic run by the local medical school / major health care system. mY vaccination(s) are recorded as p/o my medical record at that institution, and the records shared with my primary care group. So, for me at least, there is an official record within the medical system.

According to my nurse daughter who has been administering vaccine, all vaccinations should be recorded with the state. But what gets recorded depends on state requirements.

I assume to facilitate a safe and orderly return to mass tourism, so
to avoid the chaos that occurred in Florida last week.

So you think they would have behaved differently with a vaccine passport in their pockets? Thats been going on for decades.

They wouldn't have needed to behave any differently if there was a system in place to properly vet incoming tourists for their testing/vaccine status. And south Florida is not unique with these challenges, in Spain we have Ibiza lol!

As far as I know the yellow fever cards (more like a little booklet) are still in use. I have had to carry these for years on overseas travel to certain locations, as have millions of others. You guard it like your passport. Is there a chance for forgery? Probably but it seems to have worked fine for the last 50+ years it has been used, even for the military. I don’t see why, for now, the little white CDC cards can’t be used in the same way. In fact, I think people traveling to Croatia are using them right now.