Ethical travel

I remember my reaction to seeing a cruise ship near Venice. I gagged and uttered “ pathetic.”

Same sense in the Louvre with a New Yorker yelling yes yelling “Honey where is it?” Referring to the Mona Lisa as she ran pushing people out of her way to get to the room to view the painting. How did I know she was a New Yorker. I asked.

We have visited 83 foreign countries and love to travel.
We have done it many ways, touring on our own (more when we were young and had less money);
Ocean cruises, we prefer ships that have around 2,000 passengers, not the huge ones with 6,000. Cruises are great ways to see many ports and not have to move from hotel to hotel. Great for seeing the Greek Islands or the Med. Yes, the crowds can be large, but it is still fun if you do your planning right. Take a tour or excursion from the ship and it works.
Some of our favorite cruises were going Around the Horn of South America from Argentina to Chile; a cruise of Japan that ended in Hong Kong; A cruise of Norway up to the North Cape; A Greek Island and Med cruise.

River Cruises, we have done several, including Nile cruises in Egypt the Rhone, Danube and Douro in Europe.

Bus tours with groups, we have taken many, these days we love Gate 1 Travel for some great ones at great prices.
We particularly love Italy and Great Britain, but also enjoy many other places like Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Holland, Ireland, Turkey and Denmark.

We have done Russia and China despite not agreeing with the leadership of those countries. Still, we enjoyed leaning about their history and people.
Wouldn't go to Iran, Syria, North Korea, etc. NOT SAFE for US>

I don't know at what point a cruise ship becomes too big. I suppose it would never be too big for someplace like Miami. But the notion of dropping 5 ships of 6000 people into say Venice and that being prudent (ethical travel), well, I think it crosses a line in my head.

I haven't been to Russia but I've been to China. I'm just over 50 countries and I suppose I've probably been to ones that I should have thought twice about.

I suppose on one level I am just wrestling with the notion of how should I approach the idea of ethical travel. How does Rick Steves? How does anyone? I recall back in days of my backpacking I was went with an idea of leaving the place as good or better than I encountered it. Does that apply to say traveling to Russia or Iran or Venice or a national park or the world?

Happy travels.

Ethics of the government and ethics of the people. Some places are just too dangerous crime-wise to be able to relax and enjoy.

just stay in Cleveland. Is there anyplace finer? I don’t think so.

My husband, born in Cleveland, concurs with an energy matching this clip:

https://youtu.be/BmXjxBfxMTY?si=57vZDh7bEMFP17t4

A genuine answer… for my friendship group we have absolutely no plans to visit the USA for the foreseeable future and yes this is for ethical reasons.
We have enjoyed lots of holidays there over the years but we just can’t stomach a trip there at the moment.

There have also been a number of ‘interesting’ conversations about proposed work trips to the USA . We have worked quite closely with various organisations, attended conferences etc over the years, but the appetite to do so at the moment is rapidly diminishing.

Here is some guidance. https://www.scu.edu/ethics/ethics-resources/ethical-decision-making/what-is-ethics/

I don't associate travel with ethics. The latter seems to raise issues much more weighty than should I be on a cruise ship or what countries should I visit and not visit.

For instance, I remember a professor, who had studied in Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship in the late 1930s, telling me that when traveling through Europe in 1938, he refused to visit Germany. I don't think that an American visiting Germany in 1938 would have been acting unethically--to see first-hand what was happening there would have an invaluable political and historical experience. I can understand the incredible discomfort in having gone there and for that reason one deciding not to go there. But I believe I would have gone to actually see the most extraordinary story of the last century--the radical moral and political degeneration of one of the most educated and cultured nations in the world.

For several reasons, I have absolutely no interest in ever returning to Russia. But I don't think visiting Russia is a matter of ethics. Spending money there means supporting the Russian people, some of whom may oppose passionately what their country is doing, more than supporting the Russian state.

I don't approve of the Hungarian government, but I will be going there shortly, and RS still has tours going there.

I hope if I were alive in 1938 that I would think better than to visit Germany.

I think the solution is probably this: just stay in Cleveland. Is there anyplace finer? I don’t think so.

We’ve been enjoying summer in Seattle a lot. E-biking around the city, across and around Lake Washington, and also to other destinations that we’ve reached by ferry, from Victoria BC to the Olympic Peninsula to Vashon Island. We think summer in the Pacific NW is as good as it gets, anywhere.

Still, we’re off to the Mosel, Black Forest and eastern France in a few days. Perhaps not totally ethical, but we’ll be mind our manners and support local businesses.

I don’t travel for this reason, I travel for architecture, history, the food, the sites, the people, and mostly for fun. Is
Croatia and Poland - too Catholic?
Hungary - too nationalistic?
Scandinavia - too liberal?
Albania - too poor?
Turkey - too Muslim?
Serbia - too orthodox?
Spain - anti tourist protests?
These are just a few examples of reasons someone might cross a country off their list.
If I was to think too hard about each country I would probably depress myself and just stay home.

Emma, I think workplaces are right to be wary of travel to America at the moment. My sister in law had a work trip to Chicago a few months ago. 2 of the 6 people travelling in the group were held at immigration and questioned aggressively. One person who is of Indian descent was asked to read things in Arabic. It was very scary.

Emma, I appreciate your genuine answer.

Deciding should I travel and how I travel and where I travel are things we all must grapple with in our own way.

Happy travels.

Oh, and wow on
"Trainwreck | clip - LeBron"!! Thanks Hannah!

Transcript of YouTube you posted:
you have to take a risk yeah no you're
right you have to it's like when I
decided to go back to Cleveland I wasn't
totally sure they was going to welcome
me back man but they did they welcome me

back with open arms and an open heart

yeah they did again I feel like that

applies more to you um like I don't even

live in Cleveland but again I appreciate

the thought Cleveland Ohio you talking

about the home of the Rock and Roll Hall

of Fame or maybe go down the can to the

Pro Football Hall of Fame you know

Superman was created in Cleveland yeah

no I know Superman was created in

Cleveland you've told me that a number

of times you ever seen KY hoga Sunset no

do you know Cleveland's great for the

whole family yes yes yes I do you tell

me that all the time you randomly just

text me that and what's wrong weird it's

weird I got free texting why you trying

to always sell me on Cleveland when do

you want to come to

Cleveland I I I I'll come when I have

the the time I just don't have the time

right now I'll come when I have the time

I've just been really busy you visit me

in Miami all the time yeah but that's

Miami I mean what's the difference

between Miami and Cleveland it's it's

the same

you're right it's the same exactly

The first thing that popped in my mind from your thread title was all the stories lately about the bad behavior of some tourists in national parks. There was a story this morning about a child feeding an elk on a park trail while the parents took pictures. The kid got his hand bit.

Sorry David, mu bad. Thought it was a serious question. I corrected my posts accordingly.

National parks and the wilderness, ethical travel is similar to me as other travel: respect nature, respect the animals, leave it better than you found it, be aware of your impact. (Also, don't feed the bears!)

Mr E, sorry if I offended again. (I removed the post I addressed you discussing Aristotle-- no harm was meant.)

I will go back to circling at an even greater distance.

Happy travels.

David, I'd be circumspect about taking your travel ethics from Aristotle. As you'll remember from school, some of his views (e.g. natural slavery) are not considered entirely fine these days. You'd be better off considering Socrates who, so far as we know from Plato, had a more nuanced approach to what is ethical.

Nick,
Good point.

Aristotle < Plato < Socrates. ( "< " means less than!)

That's math!

Still, foundational ethics is better than nothing.

I'm just a little ill at ease with traveling some places and really think I ought to up my game on where and how-- hence this thread.

Happy travels

No problem David. Great thread. Very revealing. I am enjoying it.

"That's math!"

Just so I can be the most tediously annoying pedant here - Socrates, Plato and Aristotle used (Ancient) Greek. So they would use máthēma and thus correctly refer to "maths" not "math".

Nick,

Thank you for the correction.

I'm watching on YouTube a rather dullish lecture series from professor Gendler (PHIL 181: Philosophy and the Science of Human Nature) where she argues Aristotle is "all-that" and I'm nodding off and skipping the readings so, yeah, maybe it's me. Not up to scratch. Got me thinking about ethics though. I'm probably too old to learn something new....

Anyway, thanks again.

Happy travels

Not to mention the academic links posted above for no other reason than to imply you and Helen didn't know the definition of ethics. I'm not sure which I prefer, the passive aggressive, disingenuous snideness or outright ad hominem hostility if someone dares to question the good ol' US of A.

It's certainly not political to state the fact that foreign visits to the US are down this year: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2025/08/26/have-foreign-tourists-really-avoided-america-this-year

"Using monthly data on arrivals at all airports from America’s International Trade Administration, a government agency, The Economist finds that foreign arrivals at American airports are down by 3.8% compared with 2024, or 1.3m fewer people. The slump was steepest between May and July, when arrivals fell by 5.5% year on year. That bucked the global trend as tourism finally recovered to pre-pandemic levels."

People may disagree as to the reasons behind this- but Emma's decision to avoid the US is not unique.

To the topic, I'd also include the US as somewhere I'd balk at going. It's on the knife edge of becoming a full on right wing authoritarian dictatorship at the moment and it's only going to get worse. I wouldn't go to Israel until the slaughter stops and Bibi is in front of a judge at The Hague. Hungary is somewhere in Europe I wouldn't go near while the little tinpot fascist dictator is in charge.

At least in the US I'd have some semblance of a chance of finding other people to be around who oppose the regime. I'm not so sure that would be case in those other two countries.

I lived for a while in Apartheid South Africa. The Government of the time was often running propaganda stories - "look at all these tourists visiting us, just goes to show that real people don't care about our political system". I always bear this in mind when I select travel destinations.
I am puzzled by the reaction of some posters - in a whole thread that lists a variety of countries that won't be visited for ethical reasons, it is apparently only political if the USA is included?

On the subject of “why we travel”, among the reasons according to Rick Steves is that it gives us a broader perspective. It’s hard to see each other perspective on a subject like ethical travel if we are getting mad at each other and accusing each other of bad motives. So I’d ask at mimimim folks go back through what they said and edit their posts to ensure they are polite.

If you feel someone has a crossed a line (after reflection and some time given for editing), then report the offending post. The moderators may agree with you. They may remove the post, lock the thread, delete the thread or give us guidance. This is Rick’s house. Their rules.

I like hearing folks perspective even if I disagree with it.

My point on traveling to Russia was not well formed. If I reduced it, I suppose I might say “I won’t visit a country that is actively engaging in war of aggression”. An offensive war that is. Folks can disagree with that of course. I suppose along those lines, I wouldn’t visit a country like 1938 Germany that was engaged in rampant and systematic discrimination. It was clear by then that they were engaged in ethic cleansing. That seems a bright red line to me. When I visited China, the Uyghurs weren’t being shipped off to camps and reeducated. If they were, they would have crossed my proposed line.

Some substitute the ethical question with the safety question: I won’t travel to X because X is not safe. (I won’t go to Russia because it’s not safe. I won’t go swim on Jaws's Amityville beach because of sharks.) Everyone has their own comfort level with things like that— some love adventure travel, skydiving etc.)

I too enjoy the adrenaline rush of attending a Cleveland Browns game in the Dawg pound despite the serious risk of beer spilling on me.

Happy travels

England is heading for my list of unethical places to travel to also, btw :) This country is looking increasingly f-'ed as the days and weeks go by. I think The People's Republic of London as a sovereign nation might not be such a bad idea :)

The original thread raises a fascinating issue--how our politics and sense of what is right and wrong can affect our travel decisions, whether it be I won't visit that country or that city, or I won't fly or cruise, or I won't book a rental apartment. This forum has amazing contributors. The issue raised is important and relates to travel. But at the risk of my sounding like the prose police, it has to be discussed with great care for the words used, perhaps with some humor, and certainly with respect for those with a different view.

Even if offered a free trip under secure circumstances, I would not visit Russia today. I disapprove of that country's regime and visited Russia once before and thoroughly disliked the experience. But it did allow me to see first-hand how economically challenged and culturally insular Russia is.

I raised an extreme example--visiting Germany in 1938. I understand that most, perhaps nearly all, would say I never would have gone because of total abhorrence for what was taking place and even because there was certainly an element of physical risk. I indicated that I might have gone because I think the transformation of Germany was the most important story of the last century. To see, to record, to try to understand and communicate the danger--I think there were reasons for wanting to go. And I also think that what happened in Germany was not unique to a country or a people and believe sadly that there was a universality to what occurred.

Rj, Interesting take. I suppose motive of travel comes into play. If the motive to travel to 1938 Germany was to be a reporter (not a just a tourist taking advantage of great prices on river cruises), that changes the ethical calculus.

Happy travels.

David, totally educational. I cannot imagine in 1938 wanting to go to Nurnburg to eat the sausage or to Munich to drink beer (though I suspect I would have done both had I been there then).

My lasting memories of visiting St. Petersburg perhaps 15 years ago were not art in the Hermitage or the stunning palaces, but how sullen the people were and how drab their lives seemed to be. We often travel to try to understand another culture and a distant place. This is especially true with international travel. The reasons people travel to India and China are different from the reasons people travel to the beach or Disney World or make major-league baseball trips. And I am not suggesting that some reasons or some types of travel are superior to others. People with stressful jobs may decide they need time at the beach to unwind.

RJ,

I'd draw the line elsewhere. For me personally, I could use the educational motive for a whole host of ills-- e.g., I want to go to a bullfight to learn how they slowly kill the animals, I want to go to a slave market to see how they sell the slaves, I want to go to a Pittsburgh steelers game to see how they boo the Cleveland browns.

We all draw different lines I suppose.

Happy travels.

The Sudetenland was given to Nazi Germany on September 30, 1938 so RJ got there after the prospect of war was over.

But to be fair to RJ, viewig the past through the knowledge of the present rarely works. A lot tourists went to Germany in the 1930's. The 1936 Olympics for instance.

This question is two-fold (or maybe even multifaceted).

1. Places I won't visit because of human rights violations, authoritarian governments, etc. These include Dubai (UAE), China, and, yes, the US, currently.
2. Ways I choose not to travel because of harm to the environment, culture, etc. It could be argued that almost all travel can negatively impact these, but some are worse than others. Big cruises are among these, for me.

A broader perspective-- putting yourself into someone's else shoes and trying to see things as they do-- is hopefully a lesson I learned right from Rick Steves.

With that in mind, I wonder if by the grace of god I were born in Pittsburgh if I'd be okay with booing the Cleveland browns. I wonder.

Many folks swear by Airbnb. I avoid them since it appears they are often an end-run on local regulations and they can be destructive to very cities I'd want to visit. Others disagree. That is less clear cut to me.

Happy travels.