ENGLAND & SCOTLAND IN DEC - Routes/hotels/overwhelmed.....

Too many questions to answer in one post. You will not be there over Christmas, so holidays should not be an issue. Rent a car at the end of Bath, gives you more flexibility for seeing the back roads and small villages. However, daylight is short, so you wont be able to travel far each day. I would aim at going through (spend one night)York- great city for at least one day of wandering around. I would also do a lot of reading and find some interesting villages/towns/hotels along the way that sound interesting and just aim at them. use the country roads "B" for the most scenic. I always leave London for the end, convenient for getting to the airport. Also its completely different pace and feeling from the country side. You wont need a car in London, so do your touring, dump the car and head for London. If you prefer automatic- or plan on dumping car somewhere other than where you picked it up- reserve ahead.

We have been to the UK more than 40 times with about half of them in late Nov/early Dec. I disagree with Rick about going staight to Bath. Also, we don't drive in the UK- we use trains, buses and the Tube. I'd suggesst something like this:
Depending on when you land in London you either start there (if landing late in the day- see below) or immediately catch train to York (Kings Cross Tube station is also Kings Cross Rail station). It is about a 2 hour train ride. Spend 1 or 2 nights there. They have a great market and usually a good Christmas market. Then train to Edinburgh. Spend 2-4 nights there- include a Highlands day trip by coach(bus) if you stay more than 2 nights. They have a very good Christmas market. Then train back to London for rest of time. See this site for advice about Oyster card vs. paper travel card for tube tickets (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g186338-c133479/London:United-Kingdom:Paper.And.Oyster.Travelcards.2.4.1.Offers.html). While in London do a day trip via train to Windsor (full day or longish 1/2 day if you have theatre tickets that night). Maybe include a day trip to any of the following that interest you: Bath (huge, excellent Christmas market), Cardiff Wales, Canterburry (good market), Stratford-upon-Avon, Winchester, Dover, Brighton. This puts roughly half your trip in London and half in York/Edinburgh. We have done similar trips many times. Please private message me with questions. I'll be glad to help you plan.

Essentially you blew it and now you're trying to hook it all back together using trite routes and tracks that might not even suit your interests. There's nothing magic about Bath and the Cotswolds you won't die if you don't see them. There a gazillion places in England that are just as interesting. A travel agent isn't the answer unless you're a mental midget. Read, study, think. Stop. Take a deep breath. Go buy a Michelin Green Guide for Great Britain. Most of the areas of interest are fairly reliably and impartially ranked by a series of asterisks. Figure out where the biggerst clump is that suits you, then concentrate there. Use the transportation that suits what you're going to see. It might be a train, it might be a car use what works best. Forget Scotland, you have time to see only a small chunk (Edinburgh ?) and you'll burn darn near a day getting there and another getting back. That's not Scotland, anyway. You need at least three nights to make a dent in London. Save it for the grand finale. You probably won't need reservations for any place else or you can make them at the very last minute. Don't get hung up on having to stay anyplace that somebody recommends; there are many excellent places to stay that you stumble upon.

Will, I agree it's time to take a break and re-evaluate. What are your wife's interests? If' you've picked Bath and the Cotswolds because that's where your interests are, then stick to your guns and keep it on the itinerary. They are very close together. If Scotland is on your list because it's important to you then two days in Edinburgh is fine. There are lots of B&B's that you can pick from. I stayed at The Walton in July this year and was very happy. I think I would take the train. It's a long drive and with short days so you can't see much. I would look and see if there is a train that leaves mid afternoon and gets you to Edinburgh in the evening. I agree that you need more time in London. ; ) Pam

Rick Steves' people recommended a driving tour of the Cotswolds in December? And they recommended driving to and from Edinburgh? I think he needs to fire that associate...

Will, To begin with, I definitely agree with Toni that driving is not a good idea, especially at that time of the year (keeping in mind that you'll be driving on the "correct" side of the road, possibly shifting a manual transmission with your left hand!). Using trains and Buses will not only be quicker, but also more relaxing. With only two weeks, it's best to minimize travel times as much as possible, and I find that driving in the U.K. always takes longer than planned. The only area where a rental car is beneficial is for travel to the Cotswolds. In the same situation, I'd spend a few days in London at the start to get over jet lag, and then head for Bath via National Express Coach. If it's essential to visit the Cotswolds, rent a Car in Bath. From there by train to Edinburgh (about 6.5 hours), train to York for a few days, and then train back to London for a night or two. I would highly recommend picking up a copy of the Great Britain Guidebook as soon as possible, as it will provide you with LOTS of valuable information on transportation, Hotels, Restaurants and sightseeing details. The 2010 edition will be fine. The book covers England, Scotland and Wales. If you decide not to visit Scotland on this trip, the England Guidebook would be a better choice. If you do decide that a rental car is necessary, you might want to contact a Travel Agent to arrange that (I always do). I wouldn't bother pre-purchase of rail tickets. Rail travel in Britain tends to be on the "pricey" side, so be sure to budget for that. Happy travels!

Brian is right. Edinburgh is dawn at about 8am and sunset before 4pm on the 21st. Light will be less than that because of very long shadows for probably another 45 minutes, even less if overcast or rainy. Ed is right to suggest stepping back and having a long think. I love the Cotswolds area, I spent many years in and around Cheltenham as a child. Climbing Cleve Hill with the dog every morning was great; not so wonderful in the blowing, sheeting, freezing rain of winter. To me, the honey coloured stone doesn't have all the appeal in the rainy winter. Nice fires in the pubs, though. I hear what is said by Toni and I agree. For a first timer I say pick a couple of romantic places and enjoy. Don't forget how much jetlag from Seattle to the UK can knock you in the first couple of days.

Two weeks may seem like a long time, but it will pass quickly. I suggest that you decide now where you want to go but keep your itinerary flexible should you change your mind. The larger cities are nice because you have a good base and can day trip from them. Since this is your first leisure trip, I recommend rail or coach travel. There isn't any where you want to go that you cannot get there by coach or train. I have driven there many times and it can be quite a challenge. First, you have to get used to driving on the wrong side of the road. On top of that, the roads are narrow, cars are park in the road and the multi-lane roundabouts can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. Parking in the larger cities can be a hassle. If you do get a rental car, I recommend that you practice parallel parking before you leave and get a car with an automatic transmission as it gives you one less thing to worry about while driving. I highly recommend that you spend your first 2-3 nights in London just to get acclimated to the time change. Since you will be traveling in off season, you will have no trouble getting last minute rooms either online or at the local visitor center but I do recommend booking a few days ahead. Also, have a room booked in London before you get there (or wherever you stay) as you will be tired from the overnight flight and want to put your bags up and freshen up before exploring the city. Also depending on which airport you fly in and out of, get a room near Victoria (Gatwick) or Paddington (Heathrow) train stations so you don't have far to go when you arrive or leave.

I suggest you spend the first two or three days in London. With so much to see, you'll have little trouble keeping yourselves going while you deal with jet lag. All you really need to have settled before you depart is your London hotel. Use venere.com to find hotels in your price range that you can book and cancel later without penalty if you find something you like better. If you raise the budget, you'll have more choice for a good location. While in London, you and your wife can decide what to do next. From London you could take the train, or the bus if you prefer, to Bath. Spend time there and rent the car to drive around the Cotswolds. Perhaps drive on to Oxford, leave the car there and take the train back to London. If Edinburgh is important for this trip, a different and fun thing to do is to take the Caledonian Sleeper train from Euston station to Edinburgh. The quarters are a bit tight, but the beds are comfortable. Then take the train back or fly to London. I have read that a return train ticket London-Edinburgh is a better deal than flying one of the legs, but you'll have to check that. You can arrange all your rail travel in London if you choose. You don't indicate whether you've driven on the left-side before. If not, the first few miles can be a bit nerve-wracking, but 1000s of Americans manage it every year (and 1000s of Brits do likewise on the right-side here). It really isn't that big a deal after awhile. English drivers as a rule are safe and well-mannered on the road. So if you want to make a car trip, do so.

Hi Will,
I think your wife will be thrilled with your Christmas surprise. I assume you have a good map of the UK....Get a rental car at the airport and head west where there are lots of attractions in a relatively compact area. Start with Winchester, then visit Salisbury, Stonehenge, Avebury....Now, consult the map and add these destinations in an order which makes sense geographically: Glastonbury, Wells,a bit of Devon if time permits, Bath, Cotswolds, Warwick Castle, Kenilworth Castle, Stratford-upon-Avon, Oxford......Dump car, head off to London for most of the rest of your trip, but use one of your remaining days to do an overnight (by train) to York which is fascinating. I have never been there at Christmas, but I bet they do it up nicely. Be sure to see some plays in London....I would not recommend going to Scotland if you are just planning to visit Edinburgh. Scotland is about its beautiful scenery, better enjoyed in the long daylight days.

Hi Everyone ~ thanks for your replies. I have a lot to consider and will study all of them. I think it's a very good idea to remain in London at the outset to get oriented and maybe rest up. I also think the suggestion of using the train for transportation but renting a car for a shorter period in the little country areas is good and using the train for in between or longer jaunts would be a safer bet. After reading some of the responses, I'm wondering if Edinburgh is a good idea afterall. 2 weeks minus the days in and out and a day off for recovery isn't a long time. No, I have never driven in the UK. I did get the Rick Steves book for the UK. I see some suggestions in there for lodging. Are there any places, given the routes I've mentioned, that you guys can make specifically for London and beyond? Thanks for all the feedback!

Will, as you can see there are more ways to "do" your trip than there tourists who want to do it (lol)! I sent you a private message with my home email in case you want to ask more questions or get some more specifics. I am certain you will both love the UK no matter what you do. One possibility that none of us mentioned so far that would simplify thing for you- think about just staying in London the entire time. Do several day trips (on your own by train or with tour companies). You could save some money by getting accomodations that have a kitchen so you could prepare some of your own meals. For example, the London School of Economics rents spare dorm rooms to tourists. I've checked their rates and they seem very reasonable. One of their dorms is near Trafalgar Square and only about 2 blocks from a tube station. You get kitchen priviledges, too.
Here is the web address of an article I wrote for AAA Carolina's "Go!" magazine a couple of years ago. It is about basing in London and doing day trips by train: http://www.aaacarolinas.com/Magazine/2008/Jan-Feb/britain.htm?zip=28208&stateprov=nc&city=charlotte Maybe it will be helpful no matter what you decide.

Depending on how much you want to spend on accomodations, I can recommend several places. We don't usually do "Rick Steve's" types of places, though. Usually we have wanted to induldge ourselves a bit. In London we have stayed at 2 very good places- the Mountbatten Hotel in the Covent Garden area and the Vicoria Thistle Hotel (now called the Grosovenor Hotel)which is right inside Victoria Station. I also mentioned a much less expensive native in the post I did last night. London offers everything form super-posh 5 star hotels to hostels. The problem may be that you are awfully close to trip time and may have to search for rooms. I'd suggest looking at the London Forum on TripAdvisor. There area several good threads you could check and you could also post a question. Their reviews of properties are helpful, too. In York we like the Royal York Hotel. It is attached to the rail station and is very good- and about a 5-10 min. walk from the center of town. In Edinburgh we like the Royal British. It is across Princes St. from Waverly Station. Nice hotel and well located (about a 5-8 min. walk from the Royal Mile). we have always done Bath as a day trip, so I can't help there. I sent you a private message with my home email. Feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance. I love the UK (been there ALOT and would go back at the drop of a hat if I could).

Hi Wil I just want to add that Edinburgh is definitely worth it at the holidays. Great winter festival in its central park, world class museums, compact and great for walking around. We stayed at the Novotel Hotel in grass market area, close to the castle and were very satisfied. Enjoy your trip!! Mike DC

Edinburgh is my favorite city in the world, and the only reason to skip it would be if you don't want to spend the time getting there. However, if you plan to stop in York (a city I love), then it's only a couple more hours to Edinburgh. And you can get a high speed train from Edinburgh to London that takes just 4 1/2 hours I believe. I think a trip to Bath, the Cotswolds, York, Edinburgh and London would be fabulous. I love all those places. I would train everywhere except the Cotswolds where a car would let you visit multiple villages. I have not been there in December, so I don't know what it's like that time of year. I would think cities would be nice in winter with the shorter hours, which is one reason I encourage you to keep Edinburgh in your itinerary.