Eight cities , five countries in 21 days. Bit off a little too much for a first timer?

5 countries in 21 days, but 9 cities in 21 days. Let me be the first to say maybe too rushed. If you have read these forums before you will have surely noticed that a packed itinerary is commonplace and almost always noted in replies to that person.
However, if you want to handle it you can do it. Be aware (often noted) that 2 nights is one day and three nights is 2 days. Otherwise you are moving on.
I am sure you are excited for your first trip. Take that excitement and run with it.
Would probably have been best to not even have posted on the forum. You have done some research and planned your trip and now you will get many suggestions that will make you rethink and doubt and create enormous additional work trying to see if the suggestions will or can be fit into what you already planned.
The beauty of the first timer to Europe is that EVERYTHING is new. So how could you not have a good time.

I will leave it to others to comment on the Eurail pass situation as that is more complex than it seems on the surface.

I'd build in a slow day, R&R from the trip, it's likely one of you would have a cold by then, laundry to do, bad weather, etc.
You also have Easter late in March, during which places may be closed Easter Sunday and Monday. The week before and after Easter can be very crowded, so there may be places to avoid.
Note- Many museums are closed Mondays in the Netherlands and Belgium.
Most folks here wouldn't recommend Eurail pass, so we will see how the comments here flow.
You are late to the game for booking lodging , especially around Easter, so that may influence the course of your itinerary.
Have a great trip!

Some here will say that is too many stops, but I am not among them if you like that kind of “sampler” trip. We have similar, with 6 two-three nights stops in 2 weeks, over similar distances, and we enjoyed each one. The key is keeping the travel days relatively short, and you have managed that.

However, do not assume a Eurail Pass is the way to go. Research the supplements, mandatory reservation fees, etc. and compare to the actual cost of regular tickets bought 2-3 months ahead (discounts off regular walk-up fares can be significant).

Start with this Man in Seat61 page on using a Eurail Pass on the Eurostar trains (Amsterdam, Brussels, and Paris to London). You will find that there is a pass holder fee, plus mandatory seat reservations, and the number of pass holder seats is limited (they can sell out, particularly at desirable travel times). You do not want to be left with a 6 am departure from Paris.

https://www.seat61.com/interrail-and-eurail-passes-on-eurostar.htm#:~:text=If%20you%20have%20an%20Interrail,pay%20a%20special%20passholder%20fare.

I agree with Pat. You can keep up the pace you have for awhile but then you will crash. I have found personally that can keep up a fast pace for about two weeks.

I would at the very least consolidate St Andrew and Dundee. Two one night stays in a row is not very ideal.

However, consider deleting St Andrew and Dundee (3 nights) and have 4 nights in Paris and London and Edinburgh. It would give you some breathing room.

Sounds doable and like fun. I would move more slowly, but have done similar itineraries in my early travel days and didn't die and had a great time.

One favor you have done for yourself is not including enormously long travel days over and over. The itineraries I really don't like are the ones that go Prague - Munich - Rome - Paris - Berner Oberland - Copenhagen etc etc. But you have many shorter transfers too, and not all huge capital cities.

You're going to hear a lot of blowback, but I think you can do it and have a good time.

I will say though that Pat Europe trip architecture - schedule a vacation from your vacation in the middle of the trip. 3 or 4 nights in a more chill place where you can mostly just hang and do some laundry and enjoy the local good life.

This doesn't necessarily have to be a particular location, although some are certainly better for the vacation from the vacation than others. Rather it can be a state of mind. Go to a place like Paris even just to live in your given neighborhood, not run yourself ragged with packed daily itineraries.

Maybe pass on Liverpool and make Bath a 3 night breath-catch after back to back big cities?

Lastly, the biggest difference in length of stay you're going to feel is the difference between two nights and three nights. Totally different vibe staying somewhere three nights than two. Two feels a lot more like one than three.

Here is some math on the Eurail Pass:

According to the link on this site, a 2d class Global Pass will cost you $662 for a 5-day Flex pass or $787 for a 7-day Flex, for the 2 of you. There is no 6-day Flex Pass. I could not get the site to show prices for a 1st Class Globsl Pass.

Let’s say you buy the 5-day; that means you are paying $120 per day you use the pass, or $60 each.

Right now, Standard Class Eurostar tickets from Paris to London for March 28, close to your travel date, are $73 pp for the 8:15 departure and $100 pp for the 9:15 departure. Premium Class is $127 for either train. Later trains are higher.

If you have already spent $60 to use the pass that day, and then add the €30 supplement mentioned by The Man ( which may be our date and actually more), you are paying as much as, or more than, the fare for regular tickets. And while I could not find the price for a Global Pass in First Class, I am pretty sure that would come to a considerably higher price than the $127 I am seeing now for Premium Class.

As for your England and Scotland travel, given the steep discounts offered for Advance fares, and the 30% discount offered if you buy a Two Together Railcard (£30 covers both of you), I do not see how a Eurail pass can possibly compete.

OK, you are going to Europe. We've been many times, and we plan another trip later this year.

You have a somewhat ambitious agenda.

I have several suggestions:

1) The eurail pass is no longer needed, and is more costly. The Eurail pass is 1st class travel, and is far more expensive than is 2nd class travel. Go to rome2rio, cost out point-to-point tickets, and you will probably find that you can save 50% off the Eurail pass cost.

2) While you have a number of stops, they are concentrated in Netherlands, Paris, and the UK. I'd drop Bruges. Put 1 more night on Amsterdam and 1 more on Liverpool. While you are in Liverpool, you can do a day trip to Chester a really fun place which a preserved walled town. When we visited Liverpool, we did this day trip to Chester.

Thanks for the replies. We have all our rooms lined up which makes it hard to change things now. The reason for biting off too much comment.
I thought the same thing about putting in a R&R day so I'm not going to buy tickets for every site every day.
Yes, I realize that we don't have more than one or two full days at each city but we're up against the do I skip Bruges or Paris for an extra day in London or Liverpool.
Do we skip Bath to go through another museum in Paris or London?
Too many choices uggh.
The comment on the railpass, I thought this would be a good way to go. Most of the individual trips were over $100. A seven day pass over thirty days is about $700. And wouldn't using the pass save time and hassle of different trains for different countries? They have a trip app that I have already started to use on how we are getting from city to city. I have enough other things to worry about then figuring out that part of my trip. I almost booked a ticket in Glasgow until someone mentioned that there is a change in the station that he said I wouldn't want to walk at night.
Thanks again
Mark

I am not going to argue with you that it is not doable but it is something we would not do --- today! We would have tempted it in '72 but we were burden with so much luggage that we couldn't have moved fast if we want to. Since you asked the question I assume your suspect the answer but want confirmation. It is a lot -- may be too much. We have learned a lot in the past 50 years -- much less luggage and much slower pace. Now in our planning every fourth, fifth day is completely blank. Allows flexibility in adjusting our schedule as we travel -- take a day off, big nap, do some laundry, add a new stop that unexpectedly discovered, sit in a cafe and watch the world pass. Simple allows for slow recharge of batteries.

Second -- always assume your will return and can see it the next time. Assuming this is your only trip will just add additional stress and disappointment ---- "I didn't get to see ....!!!!" You will return. We are pass 80 and planning the next trip. At 65 you have lots of time.

I would check carefully the value of the pass. At one time a rail pass was a no brainer but with the internet and advance discount tickets the pass is marginal. It can provide convenience but not necessarily saving. And seat reservations fees especially if required can add to the cost. We never book first class unless it is cheap. Standard 2n class on most trains is close in space to what you would get in business class on a plane. Seats are wider but space between seats is not much wider. But we are normal size people - I am 6-2 so foot space is important.

Thanks for the railpass info. I am going to look at that again.

On my stop in Dundee and St Andrews. The goal of going to St Andrews is to play the Old Course rain or shine. A single cannot obtain a tee time so one must get in a que in the middle of the night to get on the next day stand by list. So I need to get to St Andrews asap.
We have a National Trust tour of the homes John Lennon and Paul McCartney grew up in in Liverpool.
So that makes us take the afternoon train from Liverpool to Dundee. We found a $65 hotel that is above the Dundee rail station. So we are hoping to get to St Andrews the next morning and I can start my quest to play the old course. You never know when they can fit in a single. I did this once at Bethpage in NY. I showed up and was out on the course 20 minutes later.
We also planned on staying in Liverpool two nights. But when I started looking for lodging rooms tripled on Wednesday April 3rd. It was because Liverpool has football game that day and the National Horse Show starts so it is a quick Beatles fan quick stop. Train from Bath to Liverpool takes about five hours. So it is check into the Hard Nights Hotel, check out the Cavern ,Club that night, Beatles home tour in the morning then off to the golfer mecca
Mark

Bit off a little too much for a first timer?

Possibly, but you will have to give us the answer on April 6th.

I suspect by the time you head hits the pillow on April 4th you will be happy the only place you have to go on the 5th is the grocery store.

We also like road trips here in the states so I am thinking we can do sort of a road trip but instead of using a car we travel by train.

Just realize there is a difference of having your car parked in the hotel parking lot, and getting to & from hotels & train stations.
You will want to pack light. ( or wish you had )

Happy travels

I think it's nice that you're doing your trip OP, not somebody else's. From the perspective of at least a couple of years worth of time spent vacationing in Europe, it's doable and could be fun.

But I will say, fair play, you asked people if they thought you were doing too much. Some people are going to say yes. But if your schedule is already set and not flexible, probably the better question is something like: we have an ambitious agenda, what can experienced travelers tell us about making it minimally stressful and maximally enjoyable?

I believe you did not adequately consider the extra costs of using a pass, and also did not use the correct dates when figuring ticket prices. Don’t even look at Rome2Rio. Go to the official website for the train and use your actual dates, not something like “tomorrow.”. Train tickets are significantly cheaper when bought ahead. Since you already have your lodging booked your dates are set.

Official website for the Eurostar:

https://www.eurostar.com/us-en

Website for trains in England and Scotland, use this:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

It will send you to the actual train company to p[urchase after you select a particular train.

There are some tricks involved in getting the cheap Advance fares for UK travel; you have to be willing to listen to the UK experts here and learn about “split tickets” and other tips. But here is an example of the savings for your trip from Liverpool to Dundee:

Assuming you have the Two Together Railcard, the regular fare for the journey if you buy as one transaction is £117 for two people. That fare alone is well under the $100 per person that you saw.

“But wait, there’s more!”

If you can catch an Advance fare and split the ticket into two, you can get that down to £33-£47 for two of you (depending on the time of travel) for Liverpool to Edinburgh, plus £29.10 (the standard fare, no advance purchase discount) for the two from Edinburgh to Dundee. So £63 to £77 for the whole journey.

Note that the Advance discounted tickets are good ONLY on the train you choose, and are non-refundable. Also note that the UK train experts may have a better way to split the tickets; I am a newbie at that.

I'm sorry you didn't come here before you bought everything.

I was so sorry when I saw your missed Keukenhof by 2 days post.... and you could have just flipped your plan upside down and finished in Amsterdam instead of starting there and then you would have seen the incomparably beautiful and fantastic Keukenhof at its peak.

Good luck on your first trip - I hope it works out just the way you dream...

The plan is to pack light. We're going the RS way with one backpack. I was thinking of doing it like my buddy does, bring old socks and underwear dump them when there dirty. That lightens the load to add other stuff to bring back:)

our landfills will thank you

I keep thinking the same thing about coming to this site before making all my plans. I am finding that out now that it is getting closer to V Day.
In just the few posts I have made have helped tremendously. I just don't want to over post my welcome.
Yeah if I was planning my trip now I would flip it around. St Andrews has a special one time only event when we're in Bruges and the Keukenhof is in full bloom when we're in Edinburgh.

Just kidding about the underwear comment. DIRTY AMERICAN JOKE.
I don't wear underwear

WAY too much travel, slow it down a bit, eliminate some of your places and enjoy your trip.

For example, we did a week in Amsterdam in August of 2022 and saw quite a lot. We spent four hours at the Rijksmuseum and just walking there we spend 45 minutes on each end. 3 nights means 2 full days, slow it down.

It IS your trip and of course your choice BUT while I love Bath and can easily spend 4 nights there, I"d skip it this trip and add one night each to Paris and London if you've not already bought your Eurostar ticket from Paris to London.

Walking tours:

Paris - I like www.paris-walks.com

London - www.londonwalks.com

Please be careful about buying a rail pass. I think Lola ran some numbers for you. I'd personally just go with advanced purchase since your itinerary is pretty tight. You may have missed the cheapest train tickets anyway. I have been going with 1st Class train tickets BUT I am a solo traveler and I like that the 1st class cars have a row of single seats down one side so I don't have to sit with others. If I were traveling with someone else there might not be that advantage so I'd probably go with 2nd class.

Pam—- when I checked UK train prices, the tickets only went up to 29 March—- their dates for travel up to Scotland have not been released yet. And the Advance fares may not appear right away. The lowest fare Insaw were for March 3, about 8 weeks out. The March 29 tix were only full price; no discounts yet.

So I don’t think they missed the boat, so to speak.

My husband stood in line at night at the Old Course and got his single tee time- he was so thrilled! For him, the whole experience was an adventure! I'm assuming you're renting clubs? I'm also assuming you know the club is closed to golf on Sundays- at least it was precovid.
Once the starter comes in and takes your name, you can go back to the hotel and sleep for awhile. He said guys were there with sleeping bags.
Also, the first and eighteenth holes are wide open, flat, and you will be teeing off #1 with a crowd of spectators watching you, along with finishing the 18 green with an audience.
Have a great time!

This crazy idea of taking old underwear is so 60s. Take 3 pair of undies. One is to wear. The next is to wear tomorrow. The third you wash out when you go in the shower. We use quick-dry undies. Same with socks. You don't need 1 pair undies/day.

Hi, sounds like you’re going to have a wonderful time! My husband also plays golf, and he would heartily agree to keep the plan to play a round of golf on your itinerary. He played in Europe for the first time last year in Wales and also at Wallasey near Liverpool. He says Wallasey was a 5-star experience! While he played at Wallasey, I was exploring Chester which someone mentioned in the replies. It’s a wonderful city to enjoy the beautiful historical black & white buildings in the center, and I also spent a lot of time in the gorgeous cathedral, plus walking some on the wall.

Just a suggestion…you might want to change the title of your post. “Bit off a little too much for a first timer?” made me think you were asking for advice how to reduce your number of locations. It wasn’t until I read your replies to comments that I realized your itinerary locations & number of days at each are already firm.

You’ve written out your itinerary on a “x night there” basis, but how many nights you spend somewhere isn’t relevant at all, because at night you sleep. For instance, if you arrive at 8PM in Amsterdam and leave the next day at 8AM you will have spend 1 night in Amsterdam, but you won’t be able to do much.
So what matters is how many days you’ll be in a certain place.
I think it will help if you write out your itinerary on a per day basis and include the time it takes to travel between destinations.
For instance;
Day 1; Arrive Amsterdam at xx:xx
Day 2: full day in Amsterdam (visit Anne Frank house and….)
Day 3: full day in Amsterdam (Rijksmuseum and…)
Day 4; train to Bruges at xx:xx, arrive in Bruges at xx:xx
Etc
Etc

This way you will have a better idea how much time you actually have to explore to see the sights you want to see.
You will see then for instance that it will take 4 hours to get from Bath to Liverpool by train and another 6 hours to train from Liverpool to Dundee. So your 1 night in Liverpool is basically just the afternoon and evening of your arrival day.

We remember events in Chester:

• seeing all the women with incredible thingies on their heads going to Race Day
• having lunch at a tea restaurant with 400 different kinds of tea on the menu
• attending Evensong in the Cathedral with the boy choir
• watching Roman centurions drill the 5th grade classes in how to form a "turtle" with their shields

It's a very interesting town, well worth a visit

Along the lines of the comment by dutch_traveler above, I wrote out what a travel day is like:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/what-is-a-travel-day-notes-for-new-travelers

Hopefully that will clarify why 2 nights are preferred for stops.

I liked Dundee a lot. I don't know that you'll have much time there, but the V&A Design Museum is excellent, and there are other good museums in the city. It's a very nice place not overrun with tourists.

Liverpool is much more than the Beatles. Lots of good museums, including the WWII-related Western Approaches HQ and the Slavery Museum. I filled multiple days there without doing anything related to the Beatles. Other than an art museum and an Asian decorative-art museum, I found Bath quite dull because I had no interest in the Roman baths, and the Georgian architecture was just too same-y for me. Give me Liverpool any day.

I think you'll waste a lot of money with a rail pass. But definitely don't look for accurate rail fares on the Rome2Rio website. Actually, don't look for anything on that website except perhaps the name of the bus company operating on a route you're interested in.

I always book lodging that I can cancel without a payment penalty up to a week or so before arrival date. Are you able to cancel any?
If you haven’t made site reservations, do so as soon as possible or be ready for disappointment.

I see what you mean about the nights and the days. So we have one or two full days without traveling involved in each city. We plan on taking early trains to each city so we arrive in each city that afternoon. This gives is time to check in. Get a feeling for the city when there is still some light out a nice place to eat that night
We're not planning on hitting too many sites on arrival days. We're saving those for full day tourist stuff.
Here is the plan so far. I will only list the full days.
Amsterdam Day 1
Anne Frank, walking tour, canal ride, finish the night going through the Red Light district.
Amsterdam Day 2
What I call museum day. Rijksmuseum in the morning Van Gogh in the afternoon. Rest of the day open to explore things in the city.
Bruges Day 1
This will be spent doing the most tourist things you can do on a Sunday in Bruges. More than likely spending most of our time checking out chocolate, waffles and beer. We're looking at this as a kick back stop. No must see things but still plenty of cool stuff to see.
Paris Day 1
Completely open right now. We are going to take one of those night car tours that has been in one of RS show after we arrive the day before. With Day one being on a Monday we are limited to things that are open so right now I am open to suggestions.
Paris Day 2
Another museum day. I bought Louve tickets for 9:30. After that. We're open.
LONDON Day 1
Night bus tour the day before. We're staying above a pub in the South End near the Old Vic theater. We plan on going to a play there on London day 2.
We would like to catch part of the changing of the guard. I don't even know if it happens that day. But we're thinking of doing the RS London walk in his guides. My wife is only 5'2" so looking at somebody's back doesn't sound really fun to me. After the walk we may go to the British museum..
London Day 2
Here is where I think it may too big of a bite.
Get up Saturday morning and take the 148 bus line that goes from our location on the South End and we take it to Notting Hill and we walk through the Portobello market. We get that double decker bus ride thing that you have to do at least once. And this is a Saturday morning so maybe traffic will be lighter then during the week.
Then we hit the Abby Rd crosswalk. (It's a Beatles fan thing again. )
Then we take the Tube and do the Tower of London tour. The reason to do the Tower tour is because the big Cambridge vs Oxford boat race is happening that afternoon on the Thames. So we were thinking of leaving the Tower right before the races start. We can walk down the walkway on the south end. Then we end up closer to our room. Then we attend a play at the Old Vic theater. That is going to be one of those 20,000 step days.
Bath Day 1
Another kick back day here like Bruges. Nothing planned except going to the baths and maybe taking those mayor tours that are offered. We are also staying at the Kennard so we may take that Riverwalk to Bethampton and taking a boat back. Of course the Bath Bizarre tours start the week after we leave .
Liverpool 1/2 Day
Here I get my Beatles bucket list stuff. Planning to stay at the Hard Days Night hotel. Go to the Cavern Club the day we get there and the the Beatles home tour. The next morning. Then we have a five hour train ride to Dundee.
St Andrews Day 1
Try to get on the Old Course . If that doesn't happen we will spend time walking around the town.
St Andrews Day 2
This is my second chance to play golf. It is also a travel day where we end our trip in Edinburgh.
Edinburgh Day 1
Nothing planned other then the usual Castle, Royal mile walk every first timer experiences. This is a Sunday so things may or might not be open so we can move those things to day 2
Edinburgh Day 2.
Go to city hall and find out what the penalties are for killing yourself on a three week vacation.
Head home April 9th.

Most of the rooms can be changed I'm just not sure if I want to change much of it right now. I could skip Bruges or Bath and add those days to London or Paris but that means I don't see them. Sure I can always come back. But there is a lot of Europe to see. Italy, Greece Norway I could go on and on.
There are two types of travelers. One type is the person that goes to the Grand Canyon and wants to take a donkey ride down to the bottom or ride the river over a week. The other type is the get out of the car take a picture get back in and drive to the next turn out and take another picture. You get half a dozen shots and your off to Sonoma or Vegas.
I'm kind of like the second tourist. Check it out, take a picture then move to the next thing.
And I am going to not use the rail pass. You have all shown me the light on that one.
Thanks

I would skip Bruges and Bath. Add the Bath nights to London and do a day trip from London to Bath.

I'm kind of like the second tourist. Or as it is commonly called - "A drive by." This site is more of the first tourist. We all have our approaches and if you are comfortable with your approach so it. But also I will not trouble you with other suggestions. Have a good trip.

I'm rethinking the Bath stop, especially with the night tour not happening and turning it into a day trip as some of you have suggested. This alopen up the R&R day we will need by then.
Do you think I should change rooms to a different part of London? Three nights above a pub should be enough of that kind of experience.
Do we store our bags at the train station and go to Bath for the day then return to London that night and check into a new room?
We could check out of our room in the South End and get a room in another part of town that feeds the most direct routes to Bath and Liverpool trains lines Then we drop our bags off at the new room just not check in untilwe return that evening. Catch the train to Bath for the day then return after normal check-in times.
That gives us a new full R&R or tourist day in London.
Thanks
Mark

I hope you enjoy your trip. On the first time, you will see a lot of stuff you have never seen in person.

In Amsterdam, get a rijstaffel - sort of an Indonesian tapas dinner - 21 little dishes
In Paris, try to see San Chappelle. Best church in Europe.

Hopefully you will check the hours of the pub. I have stayed above pubs, and learned that Europeans don't shut down their bars as early as in the US. Especially a problem if your room faces the street. Perhaps check the reviews on booking.com.
Good luck!

get a room in another part of town that feeds the most direct routes to Bath and Liverpool trains lines

All the stations in London serve different areas of the country. You cannot go to the station which serves Bath (that's Great Western (GWR) trains from Paddington station) and get on a train to Liverpool (that's Avanti West Coast or London Northwestern trains from Euston station). There are bus and Underground trains (the Tube) which connect all the station. To connect Paddington and Euston for example is the 205 bus and the Hammersmith & City and Circle line tubes.

Then we take the Tube and do the Tower of London tour. The reason to do the Tower tour is because the big Cambridge vs Oxford boat race is happening that afternoon on the Thames. So we were thinking of leaving the Tower right before the races start. We can walk down the walkway on the south end.

I'm not sure what your intention is here (to see the race or avoid the race), but while you are next to the Thames at Tower Bridge, you'll be nowhere near the race. It runs from Putney to Mortlake - which quite far upstream.

Adding a day/night to London and making Bath a daytrip is a good idea. And so is moving hotels. It is much better to travel to Liverpool from London, with a direct train from Euston Station, than from Bath Spa, where you will have a minimum of 2 train changes on the way. Not fun with luggage.

Your pub stay near the Old Vic is in the area called South Bank, not South End. You could move from there to a hotel near Euston Station for the last 2 nights. Then you can head to Paddington Station for the train to Bath Spa, and move without luggage.

The Old Vic is doing their final performances of “just for One Day”, the Live Aid musical, on March 30. Here is the link for tickets:

https://www.oldvictheatre.com/

But you are also very close to the National Theatre, and you could have a look at what’s on there:

https://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/

If you move to a hotel near Euston Station, you will be very close to the British Museum, so you could save that for the last day of your London time. That would move it off the busy weekend, too. Also Abbey Road is walkable from there (2.5 miles) with a nice walk through Regents’ Park.

...two types of travelers...I'm kind of like the second tourist...

That being the case, go for it! Even though I'm the first type, I'll not attempt to dissuade you from traveling at a pace you think you'll enjoy.

Since you mentioned it, the penalty for killing yourself on a three week vacation is an insatiable desire to return and savor rather than just taste.

Thanks for all your tips and suggestions.
I think we're going with the one day Bath trip and move our hotel connection up by the Paddington Station area for the two nights in Bath. I found a place called Vancouver Studios that looks pretty kicked back and is in RS guides.
I can't dump the Bruges leg at this time. Beer, waffles and chocolate are my some of my three favorite things.

Now we get that R&R day to relax and get some laundry done. At this time we will be about 2/3 of our trip in, so a down day looks perfect. Thanks again for those that suggested the R&R day.
We can now do Notting Hill , Portabello Rd and maybe a walk through Hyde Park or just veg for the day..

We can also do the Tower of London first thing in the morning then go to the boat race in the afternoon on Saturday.
I found out that I will need to use two different stations for the Bath and Liverpool trips when i started looking a trains betweenthe two.
So we're going to stay in the Paddington Station area and get to Euston the next morning to Liverpool.
I also noticed that the train trip between London and Liverpool is much shorter in duration then the Bath to Liverpool runs I was looking at. Is there a reason for this? Is the London train faster or has fewer stops? I like it because we don't have to switch trains it looks like we save a couple hours. Now we can see some more things in Liverpool other then Beatles stuff which many of you suggested.
Thanks again and keep those tips coming you have all helped us nailing down the little things that would have tripped us up for sure.

And someone asked about the hours of the pub and to check the reviews. I did that before booking. They said the pub closes at 22:00 so we will see if that is true when we get there I guess.

Mark

Good for you! We had to smile when I saw your post. We have a very similar itinerary...we are flying out in mid April(so we can see the tulips) and finishing up late May...it is interesting but also understandable that people with different backgrounds, ages, and locations want to experience similar things...ours is quite a bit longer, 10 cities in 5 countries in 36 days but similar places. I kept thinking of places I wanted to see(Beatles, Rolling Stones, Muckross, Shakespeare, Dickens, London Library) One place we have taken off our itinerary is the London Museum(oh and some people are gasping when I write that, but we've seen King Tut Exhibitions and Greek antiquities in Greece). To each their own. Ours is Amsterdam-Bruges-London-Stratford-Upon-Avon-Liverpool-York-Edinbrugh-Isle of Skye-Kilarney-Dublin.

FYI we have already purchased our tickets for the Old Vic theater so we're set there. It was one of the reasons we're staying where we are. When I was first researching our trip I found the Stage Door Pub then the theater.
I thought the play sounded cool. I remember when Live Aid happened. I didn't realize it had sold out. Thankfully we got tickets to the last performance of its run for Saturday night a few weeks ago.
I also thought about moving the British Museum visit to that day but that kick back day is looking better all the time.

I think you were writing at the same time I posted. I answered your question about the trains to Liverpool from Euston vs. from Bath Spa, but will repeat: there are direct trains to Liverpool from Euston Station, whichever trains from Bath will require a minimum of 2 changes on the way.

A few more comments about your planning. You are going to be in London over Easter weekend. Both Good Friday (March 29) and Easter Monday (April 31) are public holidays. That may mean a reduced schedule for trains and Tube on those days as well as Saturday and Sunday, so check on that. It is a good time for lots of walking, especially through the parks (Hyde Park/Kensington Gardens, Green Park, and St. James Park), which may be freshly planted with spring flowers for the occasion. Hopefully the daffodils will be in full bloom—-they were just getting started when we were in London last March, around the 10th.

There will be special events around London which you may want to take in, or avoid. Perhaps the locals can elaborate—-I could not find a simple list online. Note that I have removed my comment above about the Old Vic play being sold out on 30 March——that was only one particular category of ticket. But I now see you have your tickets, so that’s good. It sounds like a great show!

On my comment on the fly by tourist thing. It is not really a take a picture and move on. It is I feel like I get FOMO (fear of missing out). So I get these grand notions that I can do x, y and z . Then reality sets in when you try to connect x, y and z together.
That is why I can't thank you all enough on the help you have given me so far.
Mark

I don't see a problem with this itinerary if you are open to what you do when you arrive. If you need a nap, take one. On the other hand, train travel is very relaxing in my opinion...once you are on the train so you might catch your breath, if lost, during the ride. Keep those backpacks as light as you can...you don't need much, three change of clothing at the most. Share toiletries. Hopefully, your wife is not someone who has to have much, if any, makeup, etc. You need to love your backpacks! Watch some Camino packing videos for some helpful hints.

At worst, you will decide that you want to travel a different way the next time. At best, you will know where you want to return to next time. Well, actually, there can be many bests...enjoying the train, enjoying different locations, etc. I find the most stressful time for me is when changing locations, but that is just my personality and traveling solo. I hate to miss trains. LOL. This itinerary might cure me of this. These locations are not that far from each other and in 'English' speaking countries so some of the stress of doing this in other places in Europe is gone. IMO.

I would say enjoy the challenge and enjoy it for everything that will be new to you this trip. And truly don't miss the golfing!

You need not have FOMO when it comes to the Changing of the Guard—it is a huge time suck, given the need to arrive at least an hour ahead to get a viewing spot. And even then you might miss out, given your wife’s petite size. I am also 5’2” and the one time we tried to go, even arriving an hour early was not enough. We took one look at the gathered crowd, decided to just keep on walking, and enjoyed a nice crowd-free walk through Green Park and Hyde Park.

Thus in over 10 trips to London over the past 50 years, I have never seen the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace—-and never missed it. We have viewed the guard change at Windsor Palace, when we overnighted there before flying out of Heathrow. But you won’t have time for that.

If it is a nice bit of royal pageantry you are after, with less hassle and time commitment, consider the Changing of the King’s Life Guard at Horse Guards Parade, just east of St. James Park. There is hardly a crowd there, and you need not arrive so far ahead. Also it is much shorter in duration. Actually we left early, satisfied with what we had seen, before the ceremony concluded.

https://www.householddivision.org.uk/king-life-guard

The boat Race (Oxford vs. Cambridge) on the other hand, is something we would very much enjoy (my husband is a retired rower with 2 single sculls hanging in the garage). We are usually in London in April, May, or September. But maybe we should schedule our time in March next year so we can see it. Thanks for mentioning this!

In your case, you will have to get 15 kilometres upriver from Tower Bridge to Pitney Bridge to view the start, or further along to have a spot along the course. Here is a map of the course and some notes about viewing:

https://www.theboatrace.org/the-course

The start times for the mens’ and womens’ races are based on the incoming tide. So you will need to check on that. And have a plan for getting there from Tower Bridge—-2.5 hours of walking, or better take a so-called Uber Boat (Thames Clipper) from the Tower Pier to Chelsea Harbour Pier or Plantation Wharf Pier, and walk from there (still about 3 km) to the start.

Those two piers are on opposite sides of the river, so it would be good to get some advice on which side offers the better viewing/lower crowds.

https://www.thamesclippers.com/plan-your-journey/route-map

If you are interested in rowing and history, but not necessarily keen enough to trek upriver to see the Boat Race, you could stop in for a pint at Doggett’s coat and Badge pub on the Thames Path South Bank near Blackfriars’ Bridge.
https://southbank.london/eat-and-drink/doggetts-coat-badge

The pub is dedicated to the history of the oldest rowing race on the Thames which still takes place each of your on that stretch of the river.

https://thames.me.uk/s00049L.htm

https://londonist.com/london/festivals/doggett-s-coat-and-badge-annual-thames-river-race

We have never seen that race either, as July is not a time we would want to be in London. But we have dined at the pub, and had a nice meal in the room on the 2d level, a table by the window with the view. They have outdoor tables right by the river as well, but that concrete wall is too high to allow a view of the river.

Thanks for the information on the changing of the guard 💂‍♂️.
And the boat race. Of course when I first looked at it and not knowing the area I just took for granted that bend in the river was the bend that started at the Tower. Now I see it miles away.
I finally pulled the map out and am plotting things out.
I've changed a bunch of stuff already.
Cheers

We enjoyed walking in the Jardin du Luxembourg in Paris. Perhaps that would be nice to visit while other sites are closed.

Congratulations on retirement---I recently retired, too. You'll have lots of fun on your trip with a taste of many locations. You can do it!

One of the best pieces of advice here is to pack lightly---as mentioned lightweight underwear and clothes that could be washed and easily dried overnight, if necessary. Take layers of clothing. For our most recent trip I took a couple of merino wool tops from Costco. Merino can be worn for days without washing. I returned the REI merino top which I didn't take, and returned to Costco for the other colored merinos. I was able to get 4 merino tops at Costco for the price of 1 REI top (I know the quality is not exactly the same).

There are lots of good packing threads on this forum.

Have fun!

Two nights in a city is actually only one full day . If a place is worth spending the time and money to get to it should be worth more than one day don’t you think ?

We’ve done many trips from 4-6 weeks and we’ve never crammed so much in - and we always wish later we had more time to do less lol

If you want to see the whole boat race with commentary, rather than just a small section, you could find a pub with a tv and watch it in comfort with a drink, and then you’ll be free to go to your next stop.

That is funny when you suggest watching the race in a pub. It reminds when we went to Boston on the 4th of July. We started with the long Boston walk tour in the morning, baseball game in the afternoon. Then a walk from Fenway to the park with the concert. We were so tired and the fireworks and concert was two hours away. There was no where to sit and the security was backed up with only two entry points. 9/11 stuff at the time.
We ended up going back to our hotel bar and watched it on TV.
The whole point of our road trip was to see the fireworks and the Boston Pops performance. But what we learned on the Boston walk and seeing a game in Fenway was worth it. And our bar had a view of the bay so we saw three other firework shows in different towns along with the Pops on the TV. So it ended up pretty cool with even missing the actual concert.
So the one thing I see is a boat goes from the Westminster to the Putney Bridge. We booked a tour walk at the Abby in the morning. The race is supposed to happen around 15:00. So we have that option if we want to go. If it is pouring down and cold the pub might be the way to go.
The Tower of London tour got moved to Day 1. So I have this question. I am thinking of getting the 48 hour big bus tour ticket that offers the night tour and a boat ride from Westminster to the Tower.

Has anyone done the bus night tour in London? We are thinking of doing that the first night, especially since neither of has ever been there before and should help us get the layout of the city .

The next day we are thinking of taking the river cruise part of the ticket up to the Tower and take that in the afternoon. Then go on a Jack the Ripper walking tour that night which starts around 7 pm.
Are both the Tower of London and Jack the Ripper tours in the same area? Any suggestions on a place to eat between these two in the area?
Anyone ever do the walk of London Jack the Ripper tour?

If you're on the typical sort of overnight flight to London, you may be in no fit condition for doing much at all on your arrival day. With your schedule, I know you feel you need to push through, but I must warn you that you probably need to keep moving under your own steam (preferably outdoors, where your body can figure out what time of day it is) rather than sitting on a bus or a boat. If you sit down, you are quite likely to end up taking a very expensive nap. The hop-on/hop-off bus tours in London are roundly panned here because London traffic is incredibly bad. They aren't an efficient way to see the sights. It makes more sense to see what you can on foot and hop on one of the regular city buses if you need to rest your feet (or the Underground to cover more territory faster). One potential issue with HO/HOs nearly everywhere is that if you do hop off, you don't know how long you'll wait for the next bus to come around (what with the traffic congestion). In some cities, you might not get on the next bus because the line is so long.

I have taken and enjoyed the Jack the Ripper Tour conducted by London Walks. I see that tomorrow it meets at 7:30 PM at the Tower Hill Underground Station. I imagine the meeting place and time are the same every day, but check here: https://www.walks.com/. Not everyone loves the Jack the Ripper Tour, because the area where the crimes occurred has been redeveloped in the interim, so you won't be seeing historic architecture. However, the information imparted was interesting to me and not sensationalized. I have a feeling you'd get a less accurate commentary from some if not all the other tour operators. The London Walks guides are all licensed, and they make a clear distinction between fact and legend.

I doubt very much that the Uber Boats will be going as far as Putney Bridge anytime close to the race time, due to congestion and other issues. If you look at the route map I linked above, you will see a caution that service to Putney bridge, like most of the piers nearby ( including the ones that I suggested), is “intermittent”. I assume at some point they stop upstream traffic to prevent any interference with the race and the infrastructure involved. I noted on the website that they do close off some of the land approach routes, and those would have to be considered as well if you are trying to walk there.

That day’s schedule for the Uber Boats should reflect any closures or schedule alterations, so you should be able to plan accordingly on the day of.

We have at least twice had our walking plans seriously disrupted by major events in London that closed off our desired walking routes—- once for the London Marathon, and once for the Queen's funeral. They put up barriers to detour foot traffic away, and funnel everyone into narrow passageways that take you in a different direction, along with the crowd.

mbosteder, I’m not sure you’ve grasped what a big event the Boat Race is. Popular vantage points get filled up pretty soon. This guide to viewing last year’s race will give you an idea.

https://www.timeout.com/london/restaurants/where-to-watch-the-boat-race#

I don't know where Lola is getting her train fares from for Liverpool to Dundee.

But there are advance fares for the Edinburgh to Dundee leg- they start from £7.30, more typically £11-£12 before any railcard discount. Also you would normally change at Haymarket, as opposed to Edinburgh Waverley (do the backtrack into Waverley if you want but it is not needed).
Scotrail (the operator for that route) releases it's advance fares 8 weeks before travel.

Advance fares Liverpool to Edinburgh start at £22.60 (usually on the 0812 and 1612 trains). If you don't see an advance fare at a time you want to travel then book a £5 northern advance fare Liverpool to Preston, then you will normally see a far wider range of advance fares Preston to Edinburgh from £17.60, sometimes less. Leave a minimum 8 minutes for your Preston connection.
So Liverpool to Preston £5, Preston to Edinburgh £18, Edinburgh to Dundee £12= £35 before railcard discounts= around £22 each with railcard.

Avanti should release it's advance fares this week, Northern 8 weeks out. But 8 weeks out is loads of time to get the cheap fares.

I can normally get great fares like this 2 weeks or less (sometimes a matter of days) out.

Also you can go Liverpool to York (hourly through train) on Transpennine for about £16 advance fare, then York to Edinburgh (LNER)/Edinburgh to Dundee (Scotrail) for between £24 and £31 advance fare York to Dundee. (so not much more)- all fares before railcard discount.

EDIT-
On 3 April Transpennine have released now a £25.10 Liverpool to Edinburgh ticket on the 1612 (same platform change at Lancaster) , arrive EDI 1938 & Hay 1933- Haymarket is £22.40 !! I would book that now, tonight.

8 weeks before you can then book the EDI or Haymarket to Dundee ticket.
On the 2004 from Haymarket, arrive 2133 that should be £12.50 advance fare, on the 2039 arrive 2153 it should be £8 advance fare.

£22.40 + £8 = £30.40. With railcard £20 exactly (£14.75 + £5.25)

From Westminster to Putney I would either take the District line to Putney Bridge from Westminster (a Wimbledon bound train) or a main line train from Waterloo to Putney.

Thank for the links to the boat race this is a pretty big thing it looks like. Makes me want to check it out even more. Party atmosphere, people watching and catching a once a year sporting event that has been going on for two hundred years.
I live in an area of the world where you can't hardly find anything made by man that is over 200 years old let alone a sporting event happening. Now I'll be seeing things like this and things made by man that are over 2000 years old and that isn't even the oldest thing you can see. But I have seen a tree that is 2000 years old. So that is something I don't think Europe has.

The walking tour at Westminster starts at 10:00 and they say it takes about 2 hours normally. So if the boat thing doesn't work we can take the Tube from Westminster to the Putney Bridge stop can't we? Or should we forget trying the boat thing and just use the tube?

I also have one of the train ticket sites watching fares for me, do these sites work or should I just keep an eye out as we get closer to the dates.
Thanks for the help on the trains

I used the National Rail:\ site:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

But I didn’t check every single date; maybe five or 6, starting 12 weeks out, 8 weeks out, 6 weeks out, and different days of the week. No joy. It seems Advance fares are not released at particular times as reliably as they were last time I book train journeys in the UK (pre-covid). I have some more learning to do. . . .

It’s doable but fast paced. I hear you about your desire for St Andrews (golf) and Liverpool (Beatles). I think I’d omit the Bath and Dundee nights, 3 total, and add them into the brief days between or in London and Edinburgh.

There is a line that goes from the Putney Bridge to the Waterloo station? That would be great to get back to our hotel and the play we're seeing later that night.
Thanks

The Bath stay has moved to a one day trip. With that we got an extra London day and a better train to Liverpool.
The only reason for the Dundee stop was to save money. Since we are arriving late and not wanting to take the last leg with a ride on the bus we found a hotel on top of the Dundee train station. It's about $200 cheaper then the room we are getting in St Andrews.

That's how my stay in Dundee started, too, but it ended up being fortuitous because of the interesting museums in Dundee. I hope you enjoy your brief look at the city as well. It's fun to go somewhere with only a few tourists.

For the Boat Race the RB2 boat to Putney (RB2 on weekends, RB6 on weekdays) doesn't call at Westminster- but at Embankment and Millbank- and is only hourly. So if the walk ends at Westminster I would just hop on the tube, whether or not service is suspended for the race.

Afterwards see if the boat is running, otherwise Tube or buses #14,22 and 74 run back into Central London- for a cheap sightseeing trip.

I don't know what sites you might be using to check on advance train fare release dates. On Northern and Scotrail it is always at 0001 on the day exactly 8 weeks before travel unless there is major engineering. I can and have set my clock by that and been awake at 0001 to help forum members live on e-mail. Avanti are back to 12 weeks before (unless there is weekend engineering work) as are many other operators. LNER are open until late May, and Lumo until sometime in June. Transport for Wales is also on 8 week release.

But bluntly the old claim of you need to book the minute tickets are released is so pre Covid. On many lines good value advance tickets are available up to 5 minutes before departure (not as cheap as further out, but still good value).

I never book over a month out, usually 2 to 3 weeks and get many amazing fares, on some lines just a few days before. Tomorrow I am doing Cumbria to London for £25- booked 2 weeks ago. That wouldn't have been any cheaper 10 weeks earlier. Normally I split my fare at Crewe. This time I have booked straight through as the Crewe split to save a further £7 isn't worth the 2 hours I would lose in London on a ferociously busy day.
Personally I swear by the Northern Rail web site for checking all fares in the UK for up to 8 weeks out. And, not an option to Americans, the ticket machine at my local unstaffed station often gives me even better answers than the Northern website. As tomorrow where the TVM told me to use a travelcard, not Oyster, for the day's London itinerary (my first travelcard in over 20 years).

A lot of where and how to split is personal knowledge. The split ticket websites do not work properly in very many cases- seemingly because they are commission driven.

For Bath to Liverpool for instance Cross Country have just brought in new advance fares in the last few weeks. You may well find that the cheapest route is now Bath to Bristol Temple Meads (GWR), Bristol to Birmingham (XC), Birmingham to Liverpool (on London North Western trains). I only heard about those new fares when helping another forum member. You may now get that for as low as £30 Bath to Liverpool. That avoids a London change and will be cheaper, and barely any longer in time terms.

Yes, Putney (a separate station to Putney Bridge) to Waterloo trains (South Western Railway) run every 4 to 10 minutes. Included in the London zonal daily cap system. Use your Oyster/contactless/travelcard as normal.

OP, you wrote: “Do we skip Bath to go through another museum in Paris or London?”

Paris is much more than museums. It’s a gorgeous, world-class city that's extremely walkable as most of Paris is flat. The best way to experience Paris is by walking and exploring, especially along the river. Experiencing Paris is walking, sitting outside at cafés, beautiful parks (Luxembourg Gardens is #1), bakeries, crèpes, charming neighborhoods… The best of Paris is not, imo, museums and tourist sights.

I am starting to plan out my Paris days and agree that it much more then museums.
The Louve is the only museum that is planned at this time.
We were thinking of doing a macaroon cooking class a walking food tour or something different like that so we just don't the same thing in every city.
Thanks

I know it's hard to do, but the Louvre for me is a hard pass on a short visit. It's absolutely massive, it's crowded, and if you are not coming in with a strong pre-existing understanding of western art it can be very much a waste of time.

Do a smaller art museum instead - you'll get more out of it. And/or visit the absolutely superb Paris Opera House, where you will see stunning Art Nouveau sculpture, gorgeous Versailles-like Baroque interiors, and the incredible! Chagall ceiling. Plus the history of the Paris opera is amazing. You can take a short tour.

Looks o.k. to me. I hope you can play at St.. Andrews ! My brother-in-law and 3 friends spent 2 weeks playing golf in England and Scotland - played about 21 rounds during the 2 weeks and had a great time.

I agree with Hank, i would not go to the Louvre (with an R) when you only have 2 days in Paris (nowhere near enough time). A tour of the Opera Garnier is enjoyable. I also like the Orsay, a wonderful art museum in a beautiful bldg that once was a train station. But really, the best of Paris is being outside walking and exploring.

Btw, it’s “macaron” not “macaroon”. Macaroons are coconut cookies, macarons are not.

I totally understand your passion to play the course at St Andrews. I love golf, my dad and both of my husbands were/are avid golfers. St Andrews is, as you said, the mecca for a serious golfer. We spent a week in Edinburgh so my husband could play St Andrews for 4 days. He loved it. Hard course though, but i’m sure you know that. It will be a dream come true for you. Enjoy!

I agree with Hank and Susan. Enjoy the ambience of Paris, skip the Louvre, and take in a smaller museum or venue.

Forty-five years ago, as a backpacking college student, my friend and I spent a couple of days in Paris at the end of 3 weeks of mid-winter train travels/sleeping. We were weary and had colds. I don't remember anything other than the disappointing Mona Lisa from our brief stop in the Louvre, but I remember feeling energized by the small Impressionism museum or annex (?). In 2022, the Orsay Museum was #1 on my list and it did not disappoint. While it was fairly crowded (Early Sept), I could have spent all day. My husband was ready to leave earlier, so we did. We also enjoyed the Rodin museum and gardens. We didn't step a foot in the Louvre---maybe if we visit sometime in the winter...