Don't call me Mademoiselle!

That's funny-In a bar in Paris the bartender first called me madame then quickly switched to mademoiselle in case he offended my middle aged self. I was not offended, just amused.

I heard that story too. It actually made me a little sad. Maybe as I am progressing from Mademoiselle to Madame, I won't be so sad next trip to Paris.

Good to know! Thanks Maryam!

Re statement in the OP: "I always use "Madame" just because you never know, so I suppose that it more or less preferred, so if you are in France, try and avoid using "Mademoiselle" if you care not to offend." I make no claims to expertise in the French language. However, not sure it's as simple as stated in the OP: My own experience has been the opposite of the OP and the same as Karen's. Once I used Madame to address a woman who appeared to be in her 20's and I still remember the surprised look she gave me, it was obvious from her expression that she wasn't used to being called Madame and didn't like it. She was nice enough to not say anything, cutting me some slack because it was obvious I was a tourist. But it did make me more sensitive to the issue--just another one of the baffling subtleties about communicating with the French in their own language.

I heard that story too - it was really interesting. I didn't know that at one time there was a masculine equivalent - Demoiseaux (sp.?). But the title of Picasso's "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon" makes a little more sense.

Well, some feminists suggested it, but it does not mean that their views represent the views of the majority of women. As a matter of fact younger women don't like to be called "Madam" because that makes them feel older than they are. So if you don't want to offend, call any woman under 28/29 Mademoiselle and any woman over 30 Madam (they won't be offended even if they are single).

First time someone called me 'Madam', I looked around to see who they were talking to!

Just because a few women see it this way doesn't mean everyone does. My experience is that very few older women get offended by being called Mademoselle or at least stay offending if you offer that they look too young to be called madame. I have yet to meet a women over 30 who doesn't like to hear that she looks 10-20 years younger than her age. On the other hand calling a teenager madame and then once corrected commenting on how mature they are acting has a similar affect. So I call younger women Madame and older women mademoselle. Not proper french, but tends to wins friends.

Maybe it's a little off-topic, but since the subject has been opened, I'll make a comment about women who feel shocked or offended at being thought old enough to be called "madam" or "ma'am". First of all, "madam" is a title of courtesy and respect for adult women who are no longer adolescents. Other than the initial obvious assessment that determines that the woman in question is not a child, it has nothing to do with how old a woman is, or how old she looks. No judgement of such is implied. A woman in her twenties receives this same title as a woman in her nineties. I am originally from the southern US, where I was brought up to use the terms "ma'am" and "sir", and I expected to be called "ma'am" as soon as I left my school-girl days behind me. As a matter of fact, I find it a bit off-putting when someone who should, does NOT call me "ma'am". It seems that they are assuming an unwarranted familiarity, and seems a bit disrespectful. I think that any grown woman who is shocked to find that she is called "madam" should probably look in the mirror and catch up to reality. It means she is adult, and is being afforded the respect due an adult. To me, calling an adult woman "Miss", or the equivalent, seems a little silly and patronizing. But that's just how I feel; maybe others feel differently. I also am dismayed that in our youth-oriented culture, we think that it is so negative to be thought of as getting older. There's nothing at all wrong with being the age that you actually are. I think we should all be so lucky as to get older, and should embrace whatever stage of life we are in.

What D.D. wrote was pretty much the gist of the report. There is no relation to age with the words, but rather an assumption of a "virginal" woman, versus an adult woman. I also think it would be silly to be offended at being called Madame. I would think the person addressing me is showing me respect.

As Hank Williams Jr sang "We say grace and we say ma'am...if you aint into that, we don't give a damn!" Do whatever feels comfortable to YOU and quit worrying about everybody else. You are a tourist not a French citizen.

A drunken Corsican called me "Mademoiselle" once in a bar in Marseilles. Once.

And you would have preferred being referred to as Madame, right?

Unlike our youth oriented culture, most Europeans see Mrs. as preferable to Miss. It reflects age, experience and station in a positive way. You won't offend a Miss by calling her Mrs. but you probably will offend a Mrs. by calling her Miss (unless she's American).

Mrs. means you are married, and Miss means you are not. Perhaps I speak only for myself, but I prefer Ms. Men don't have a different word, so why should women? If I am with friends it is fine to use Mrs. but in a business setting, Ms. is better. Even though each country in Europe is very different, not sure why the claim is made that only America has a youth oriented culture and that Europe doesn't. Where does that come from and on what information is that based?

So, Jo - Greetings. My understanding is that Fraulein is pretty much history in Germany and that even young adults are referred to as Frau. True? False? Also, in British English common usage the feminine terms for occupations are pretty much dead; for example actresses are generally only referred to as actors - like their male counterparts. But while I was watching German TV last month I noticed that the suffix <<in>> is very much still in play, for example lerhrerin for female teacher. Your opinion? Sorry to hijack a French thread and throw English and German in....

Nigel- Before Jo responds... I think the -in suffixes are just a matter of good grammar and usage. Long live the Bundeskanzlerin. As I recall, the -lein in "Fraulein" is a diminutive, so therefore can be considered demeaning, whereas -in just connotes sex. Maybe we're losing something in English as our female noun forms fall away. At least "dominatrix" is alive and well.

Good points here. I would agree that using the word Fräulein is, shall we say, out of style. That was pointed out to me there once in the late 1980s. Using "Frau" is the safe and correct term. But, as you say, the "in" ending at the end of a noun to denote the gender is not only good grammar and usage but also appropriate, as in Lehrerin, Bundeskanzlerin...your sentence, Es lebe die Bundeskanzlerin.

The reasoning is quite similar in the cases of Fräulein and Madmoselle they're both diminutives of the title given to a married adult woman and so, by definition, belittling. That is the very function of a diminutive. Calling an adult woman in effect "(My) little girl" just because she isn't married is undoubtedly patronizing. Regarding German female endings: yes, the difference is that English nouns which are used for e.g. job titles are (with a few archaic exceptions: e.g. King and Queen) gender neutral.
And in this gender-neutral-by-default environment the irregular specially marked female variant (e.g. actress) really sticks out. But in German every such word is either specifically male or female. The unmarked variant isn't gender neutral as in English, but male. And you can not just it to be "neural" with a decree or something, that is not how language works. The German path to a more inclusive and gender neutral language is to routinely <b>include</b> the female forms in general usage, i.e. not just using the male version as the default: "Ingenieure und Ingenieurinnen" for "engeneers." Sometimes contracted with a camel case ("IngenieurInnen"), the much maligned "Binnen-I."

My German teacher told me when I asked that they still always use the -in endings and it generally isn't regarded as sexist because it's used for every job. By comparison the -ess and other feminine versions in English were restricted to specific jobs that often had some kind of socially dubious connotation.