Do you ever feel conflicted about your love for Europe

Which country in Europe? Things are soooo different in Iceland than they are in Romania, and again the UK differs greatly from Poland.

Perhaps if you made some sort of news report reference then we would know what you are talking about, for example where have you seen racism against women in Europe?

To put the shoe on the other foot though, I am often appalled by things that happen in my own country, the US, but it certainly doesn't mean I don't love it. I see horrid things in every country, and it is hard to balance out who is worse, etc. I usually just try and behave the best I can and hope I can be a good ambassador for my land. One can love Europe without having to agree with everything that goes on here. I like Germany a lot, cause I live here and know it well, and wouldn't mind living in Belgium or the Netherlands or Denmark, but doubt if I would enjoy living in Romania, Greece, or Iceland.

I'm not sure if I've heard the same things you've heard. Of course no country or culture is perfect, or anywhere close to it. But I am more and more convinced every day that there is much benefit to be had if the US would emulate Europe more.

What I DO feel conflicted about is my complete lack of experience visiting non-western countries. On the one hand, I chide myself for not trying harder to break new ground for myself and my family, and on the other hand I know our time and funds are extremely limited and our tourist $ would be best spent on areas that are entirely safe and that we stand a good chance of enjoying fully.

I'm going to watch this thread with interest (while it lasts!)

I think it would help the topic if Andrea supplied us with some more details about the "racial happenings" and poor treatment of women us Europeans get up to (and exactly which parts of Europe she means.)

Also, while we're lumping "Europe" together as a single entity it may also be interesting to compare and contrast racial harmony and treatment of women with the situation in "North America". Which include more than Canada and the liberal parts of the US.

I wonder if, for instance, the terrible treatment of gays in Jamaica should influence my decision to visit Canada? I mean most Canucks seem nice (almost too nice) but you never really get to know them that well... and they do share a continent...

I don't feel any more conflicted about my love for Europe that I do about America. There are terrible, unfair, etc. things that happen everywhere, every day -- but I still love my country -- and Europe also.

Peter, it is all part of our subversive diabolical plan. Eh?

I always though it was suspicious Jon, glad to have the truth out in the open. With Canadians there's always that nagging voice at the back of your head saying "No one can be this polite, don't turn your back or you'll end up done like a baby seal."

For instance, while at work I listen to a BBC radio station on my computer. They were having a call-in show just the other day and a woman called in to talk about recently suffering a barrage of misogynist verbal abuse on a City bus. The radio host immediately said "we must demand segregated buses!" and the woman agreed that was the answer. I cannot imagine anywhere in Canada or the United States that a woman would think segregated buses were the answer. Let me remind you this was in England.

And if you are a football (soccer fan) at all you know there are lots of abuses there. Remember when former Barcelona star Eto'o tried to leave the pitch because the racial abuse was so bad? And England's black players have been abused relentlessly in Spain. Before you respond that we are talking about soccer hooligans, I have been to European soccer games and know plenty others who have, and hooliganism is not something to hide the abuses behind. The soccer fan who participates in such abuse might be the charming cafe owner you meet another day.

There's lots of examples I could mention (not even getting anywhere near the treatment of the Roma in Czech Republic or the treatment of gays in Eastern Europe), but talking about specific examples was not the point of my topic. I was just wondering if events like this sadden you, or make you wonder what you love about a country? Is a country more than the sum of its food, architecture and museums?

I of course intend to keep on travelin'. As Rick says it can be a political act.

I thought "misogynistic" referred to speech/actions against women, not racial minorities. Are they suggesting segregated buses for men and women?

They were talking about segregated buses -- as in one for men and a separate one for women.

Andrea, I think you may have missed a joke on the call in show there - there is no movement in the UK to segregate buses. In fact we have no history of segregated buses - unlike North America.

I think you might have illustrated why it's foolish to judge Europe as a whole (just as it is to lump North America together.)

Take the treated of English footballers in Spain, it was a scandal in the UK because that doesn't happen here. So which is the "real" Europe? Spain where it's common or the UK where it's shocking?

Back to your Radio show, listen to talk radio in the US (or rural Canada). It's wall to wall loons banging the Jesus drum and spewing a stream of hate against Muslims, Gays, Jews, Liberals you name it. Does that ever make you question your love of Canada?

Peter I know the buses would never be segregated in England. The shocking thing was that a BBC presenter (who I would expect more from than a rural, religious radio presenter) thought that segregation was the first and obvious solution. And further that the woman agreed. I don't think it was a wind-up.

I didn't start the topic because I've judged Europe (or even individual countries) poorly over these incidents. I was merely wondering if others feel sad or otherwise when they hear about such things happening in a country they love -- European or otherwise. I still love traveling in Europe and even fantasize about living there one day (alas the funds will never allow that).

Potentially divisive content removed.

The original use of the term misogyny was regarding a fundamental mistrust of women, from which stems actions and resentment that result in hatred.

I don't feel conflicted at all. I think the US could learn a lot from Europe (health care to name just one example) on many levels. I am conflicted about the US though, I love "my" country but am very saddened by a lot of what goes on here.

Dictionary.com defines misogyny as: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

I think the constant, weird, desire to treat "Europe" as a single place, a country is clouding the issue.

Are there countries that I would think twice about visiting because of political or social reasons? The answer is yes, of course. But it wouldn't put me off a whole continent!

Racism in Spain (for example) might put me off Spain but I wouldn't give it a second thought when thinking about Sweden or Italy or anywhere that is not Spain. It's as silly as my contrived Jamaica/Canada post above. (P.S. for the record I have no major issues with Spain I was just using one of Andrea's examples.)

I think there's a danger when you try to get a view of places from the snippets that you see in foreign news. The only time Canada trouble the British news is a) being bullied by the US during trade negotiations and b) clubbing baby seals. We also get a raft of silly stereotypes from American comedies. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe that saying "Eh?" a lot and murdering aquatic mammals is not a complete picture of the Canadian psyche...

There is not much coverage of Europe in NA news, and what there is tends to concentrate on the sensational. Its easy, especially if you take a number of stories from separate countries and then generalise about "Europe", to get a skewed view. I mean, take the most sensational headlines from Canada and the US and Mexico and lump them together and you'd get the idea that you all live in an orgy of kidnapping, murder and rape... Again, not an entirely accurate view.

I like Peter's post -- so much so that I realize I didn't actually answer the question.

No.

I don't feel conflicted.

I don't feel conflicted about being male, despite crime rates among men being higher than those among women. To me, that's how base the question is.

People who feel conflicted simply because of diversity in attitude need to reevaluate their own ability to see others as their own equals. Diversity in thought is diversity, just as diversity in race, religion, or ethnicity is simply diversity.

Those who would make us homogeneous, those who are inclined to wallow in their own conflictedness, fail to realize that in that homogeneity we lose the indentity that makes us interesting.

No.

Quite to the contrary. Every story that makes me say, "Wow, that's different", is a story that makes me say, "Wow, I've really got to travel there."

After all, isn't it the experience of differences that draws all of us to travel? Isn't it the experience of some modest discomfort, the discomfort that comes from being outside our own element and homes, that drives the spirit of adventure in us?

That same notion goes to the pride in sharing our own great nation. When we, in any way, become conflicted in the behavior of our home country, we show that we in ourselves have failed as an individual to share the greatness of our land in such a way so as to develop healthy national pride.

It is the pride in our uniqueness that drives healthy nationalism. It is the appreciation of diversity that spurs the spirit of adventurous travel.

No.

I do not feel conflicted.

Not there.

Not here.

Not anywhere.

I love the United States of America.

I love Europe.

No.

I do not feel conflicted.

I agree with all who said they do not feel any conflict about their love for Europe :-)

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

Because no country has a lock on racism, misogyny or other abuses of people, I try not to let reports of such happenings color my overall view of a country. It is more difficult for me when it is obvious that such things are institutionalized in the culture of a country, but who am I to judge another country's culture anyway? I often think the worst thing we ever did for many countries/cultures was to "civilize" them. Hunter/gatherer societies were probably rolling along just fine until we (Euro/Western cultures) barged in and started imposing our values on them.

Incidentally, one of my oldest friends is always ragging on the South (Southern US) as being racist and homophobic. It really bothers me to hear her paint everyone here with the same brush as I know this isn't the truth. Since it bothers me to have that said about where I live, I try not to do the same to other places.

No, this sort of thing doesn't bother me at all. I take it for granted that people are flawed. If I avoided places where people have behaved badly, I'd never leave my house. Come to think of it, we're not paragons of perfection in my house either.

One other thing, Andrea, about your comment: "a BBC presenter (who I would expect more from than a rural, religious radio presenter)." Why is it okay to disparage people who are religious and live in rural areas? That sounds to me very similar to judging people by race or sex.

"Back to your Radio show, listen to talk radio in the US (or rural Canada). It's wall to wall loons banging the Jesus drum and spewing a stream of hate against Muslims, Gays, Jews, Liberals you name it."

I have only one reply to that: Ian Paisley

And he is an MP!

Jim: FYI: According to dictionary.com on my i-touch--misogny: hatred, dislike or mistrust of women.
I wanted to make sure I wasn't misusing it all these years, so I had to look it up :)

Europe, misogynist? Did I catch that right? Just start with the generous paid maternity leave in several countries, then add countless other examples, including more than a few female heads of state in the past few decades, not to mention many political parties chaired by women and the high rate of employment for women in the workforce, and then tell me that Europe is still misogynist. I can't wait to tell my wife (an MD/PhD who will soon run the breast cancer department at a major European university hosptial) that she has no hope in her home country because the entire continent is misogynist.

I'd like to thank Jim for his post. Who'd a thunk someone from Oklahoma could be so eloquent? ;)

Andrea, it's great that you're getting news from the BBC. I mean, their coverage of our politics is much deeper than our own. But you still are just getting "news" and not seeing the day to day lives of ordinary people.

I envy you, by the way. You get to be "left of centre." Down here, I only get to be "left of center."

Jim, I do hope I didn't offend. Don't want to come across as a misoklahomist.

No, I don't feel conflicted about my love of Europe either. There's idiots in every culture.

Europe is having a flux of immigration from non-Western countries that is fairly new to them. There's some growing pains that go along with that. We've heard family members over there make disparaging remarks about the Turks, that somehow every crime is their fault.

As far as how women are treated, I've never seen any mistreatment. Maybe I'm missing something.

For those who sent me, dozens, of definitions of misogyny, I took no offense. I am just not, typically, online on the weekends.

I tend to use the root meaning of words over their implications. From a 'style' standpoint, were I to want to convey hated of women I would not choose that word. If I wanted to convey distrust, and the resentment that grows from it I would use the word misogyny. That set of feelings acts as the basis from which hatred grows. (Note that I toned down my original post -- I'd rather contribute to why we love Europe, than contribute to a disagreement rooted in semantics.)

In any case, what we are talking about here is homogeneous outgrouping. That is the tendency for an individual, when considering a group of people who are fundamentally different from themselves, to assume that all members of that group are the same. That is to say, we unfairly assign the characteristics of an individual to the entire group we assume they belong to.

For example, I was cut off in traffic a few days ago by someone wearing red-rim glasses. I don't wear glasses at all, much less ones with red rims. I may learn to consider all people who wear glasses to be bad drivers, and those who have red rims to be especially bad drivers. This example may seem extreme, but is it? How often do people assume behaviors based on visual queues no more telling than red-rim glasses.

People who post to this board are among the least likely to homogeneously outgroup people. Those who are not only open to travel, but seek to interact in another person's paradigm, are the slowest to place group identity assignments for individual action.

Great discussion.

What a bunch of boring, childish, pop-psychology.

"Europe is having a flux of immigration from non-Western countries that is fairly new to them."

This is not entirely accurate or maybe it depends upon your definition of the timespan of "new."

How is it not accurate? When is Holland's past history has there ever been a large influx of Moroccans? When is Spain's past history has there ever been a large migration of Nigerians to their soil? While the US and Canada have had several waves of immigration in our history, some countries in Europe are only now experiencing their very first influx of immigrants with different skin colors and religions during the same time span.

Michael NY...I guess it depends on how you define "new" or recent past. France has had large emigre communities from southeast Asia and North Africa for almost a century. France, the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal saw huge increases in immigrant populations of differing colours and religions in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, as they retreated from their colonial possessions....so such immigration is not new to them.

I seem to remember hearing about Ottomans in Spain quite a while ago. I believe Norseman provided quite a bit of immigration as well. The Romans were known for moving around a lot, too.....

Seriously though, it is true that the influx of people from "elsewhere" has been much higher over the past generation or so than the previous couple of centuries.

Norm, I'm well aware that some countries in Europe are more "diverse" than others; that's why I said some countries in Europe are only now experiencing their first wave of modern immigration with peoples from different with different skin color or religions. The influx of folks who practice Islam into the Netherlands is something that part of the world has never experienced before. I seem to recall reading about a series of churches and mosques being burnt down a couple of years ago. Spain, has of course had regular immigration from North Africa, but Africa is a big place with lots of different ethnic groups, and in their modern history there are new immigrants the "locals" haven't lived side by side with before. There have been some ugly incidents recently at the soccer stadiums in Spain with fans yelling racial insults and throwing bananas at black players. Something like that would be unheard of in North American in this day and age. Spain is hopping on the modern immigration "train" at a different stop and has to deal with it now.

Andrea,

There is the good, bad and the ugly in various European countries and in the US as well. I definitely do not even presume to lump the countries in Europe together so that I can come up with some sort of generalisation. My interests, preferences, priorities, emotions are tied up in traveling to Europe over traveling in the US, the western hemisphere, Asia, or elsewhere. Those areas can wait. That doesn't mean that the society, here I mean, in northern and western Europe is perfect, not at all, which the postings I assume have been refering to. As with most things in life, it's a trade off. Some things they-- again am I lumping all of western and northern Europe together-- do better, some things we do better.

What may work for them, who specifically?? For the French, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, Germans, Italians, Austrian, Swedes, Norwegians, and our British cousins, the same thing may not work here for several reasons: culturally, historically, philosophically, psychologically, etc. Every time I encounter the question "why do you keep going back over there?" my reaction is: you would know if you went more often. Ever since I went the first time , I have never felt conflicted in choosing Europe, culturally, lingistically, and historically in terms of interests.

That scene in Spain with that sort of abuse any rational American would find nowadays absolutely disgusting and appalling...I wonder if the Spanish team lost that match.

Michael....your comment about the Netherlands is simply not true. They have had a large community of Muslims living there since the 1940's, mainly from the former colonies in Indonesia. The attacks you mentioned were condemned by all segments of Dutch society. May I point out that attacks on mosques and Muslims occur in the United States and Canada as well (Hamilton Ontario, January 2010; Southern California, December and July 2009; Dayton Ohio, September 2008; Massachusetts, late 2004-early 2005, among others.)
The incidents you mention in Spain were also roundly condemned by the vast majority of people in that country. But, unfortunately, such situations at sporting events continue in North America as well (Bethesda MD, November 2009; Cumberland MD, September 2008). The use racial epithets and slurs is still a part of our society in North America...against blacks, Jews, Muslims, Hispanics, and others. Yet we don't consider that to be representative of our society generally....more an aberration that we're trying to correct. Why would we portray Europe as being any different?
None of these types of actions, we know, are supported by the overwhelming majority of our citizens, nor do they represent the general relations between groups in our society...but the same holds true for the Netherlands, Spain, and other European countries. To suggest that Canada and the US have been dealing any earlier, or any more successfully, with these issues is, in my view, incorrect. Instead, the problem seems to be how to socialize newer immigrant populations into our society while still allowing them to maintain their collective identity. In the recent decade or two, I don't think North America can claim any better success in solving this problem than Europe.

The percentage of Indonesians living in Holland is quite small compared to the current influx of Turks and Moroccans into the country. In fact if you combine the two groups it's more than double. In fact, it also doubles the percentage from Holland's Caribbean possessions. That's quite a demographic change in such a small country in such a small amount of time. While no country is perfect when it comes to assimilating immigrants, IMO the US and Canada's conduct the been the best in the world. It's one of the few things about the US that I'm proud of.

Michael...the figures I see are different...showing the Indonesian, Surinamese, and Antilles population (all current or former possessions) at 5.2% of the population, with Turks and Moroccans at 4.2% of the population. Whatever the figures, I think the countries of Europe as a whole (including the Netherlands,) have done as good a job at integrating new migrants over the past decade or so as we have. The ocurrences that trouble them happen here, too.

To hopefully put an end to the bickering, why don't we agree that every country has good people and bad. There are those who welcome newcomers and those who fear them. Unfortunately, it's only the negative situations that the news media plays up.

We can't judge an entire people by their nationality or where they currently live. Let's judge people as individuals not lump them together as citizens of a particular nation. Hasn't travel taught us that?

Are all Italians crooks because you may have run into a pickpocket in Rome? Are all the French rude because you may have encountered rudeness in Paris? Are all Scotsmen cheap because....no, that one's true. :)

Nope.

I thank you all for such thoughtful replies. The topic has taken on a life of its own, I think. As I am the OP, I think I will prorogue this thread now (a joke for my Canadian friends).