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Do manners matter any more?

If I'm just being a cranky old granny, then tell me so. But in recent days I've noticed a few new threads by new or newish posters who have shown a remarkable lack of manners. Specifically, a brusque, curt demand for information. Not even a complete sentence. Not worded in the form of a polite request. No detail or information given that might guide an informed response. Frankly, when I read those posts, I just wanted to ask them where they had lost their manners.

To our new posters- these forums are populated not by paid employees, but by members who are here solely because of their shared interest in travel. By all means, ask any questions you may have. But please be polite when you do. Just as I hope you would if speaking to someone in person.

Posted by
12818 posts

I just wanted to ask them where they had lost their manners.

That assumes they had manners in the first place. Not sure I would skate out on ice that thin.

I think the so many people are just used to talking at 'alexa', they do not know how to interact with people

If I'm just being a cranky old granny, then tell me so.

I say not.

Posted by
3681 posts

I've noticed a lot of first time posters whose posts sound more like Google searches than an attempt to initiate a conversation. I don't waste my time responding.

I guess I too am a cranky old granny.

Posted by
257 posts

If I'm just being a cranky old granny, then tell me so

Lol, I'm not going to tell you that! I'd actually go a step farther and say the manners you describe should be used regardless of the people on the receiving end being paid employees or not!

Here's my theory: I highly suspect is that these people, despite posting to a online forum, don't actually spend much/any time in online community spaces. There's a vast difference between online services and online communities that offer help. And they're conflating the latter for the former. It still doesn't excuse anything (I'm team Basic Manners, always!), but that's how I make sense of it in my head.

Posted by
9523 posts

There is a flip side to this issue. Some long term forum members can also be guilty of a curt answer or making the OP feel like they asked a stupid question. I see this happen from time to time. I write and then delete an answer from time to time knowing that I have fallen into the same trap.

Seriously, if we all just try to put a little kindness into our posts and responses, we can maintain this community of travelers as the extremely helpful group that it is. I certainly have gained a great deal from its members over the years.

Posted by
431 posts

Yes, you are. I can say this because I teach 18-24-year-olds and I'm old enough to be their grandfather. Our standards are quaint and fading. To paraphrase Bob, we either accept or get out of the way.

Posted by
4669 posts

No you are not. I usually just skip these posts without answering. The questions are too broad for a few sentences anyway.
And why should manners be quaint, they should be the norm.

Posted by
2420 posts

I am an old, sometimes cranky, Granny, as well as being a grammar Nazi, after a fashion. Perhaps, with texting, and all the abbreviations, shortcuts and acronyms that are used therein, people have forgotten how to communicate with complete sentences and words. (I am trying too find a not-too-judgmental excuse here.)

Also, when doing a Google search, we are pretty curt in the search bar, so maybe these posters think that's how all "requests" for information are made. Tsk, tsk! Yes, they give the impression of not having been taught manners, or how to have a conversation with real people, or just how to be polite.
Sometimes I feel the inquiry is being made by AI, or that the original poster formed their questions from an AI source. (Save us from an AI planned itinerary, please. There are no nuances there.)

As to Carol's comment....I find sometimes that I must guard against being rude rn responding to some innocent OP whom I felt hadn't done enough research before coming to the forum. After all, we are not travel agents and I hope the poster puts some effort into planning for themselves. But i It is easy to forget how sometimes travel seems overwhelming. There is a fine line here. I hope I tread it well.

But back to the original post here. Yes! I do believe manners have deteriorated. I don't know when I last got a thank you note for a wedding gift! Now to me, that is far worse than a curtly worded question on the forum. Argh!

Interesting

Posted by
1996 posts

I’m too young to be a cranky old granny, but I noticed for quite some time now that the “be unfailingly polite” thing seems to be a one way street; the poster who asks a question can get away with pretty much anything, but the people replying must walk on their toes not to write anything that could be perceived as not polite.
Rather than say anything about it and risk deletion by the WM, I’ve established some forum guidelines for myself. Before I reply, I briefly check the posting history of the poster in question. If they’re one of those posters who only post questions and rarely or never come back to a topic, I don’t reply. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t need praises and hallelujahs when I answer a post, but at the very least I like to know that my answer is read.
I also don’t answer posts that are phrased like a google search, for instance “questions”, that don’t even have a question mark at the end of the sentence, let alone a “hi” and “TIA”.
And if someone sends me a PM, but doesn’t even bother to start this personal message with a greeting and end it with a “thanks in advance “, I just won’t bother answering them.

I know some posters here don’t mind that posters are impolite, but I myself do care about manners both in real life and online.

Posted by
11268 posts

Could this be part of it? Conceived and born with electronics, ingesting more content than human interaction. Gift article from the Washington Post on 8 Gen Z quirks: thhttps://wapo.st/3JHQEs7

Some of these quirks aren’t the greatest to me either, Jean.

Posted by
23577 posts

What was said by Judy and Carol now retired. Thank you both. I need occasional reminders.

Posted by
1996 posts

“ What hurts me most, however, is that you put a lot of work and effort into the tips you give, and rarely do you receive a thank you in return. Most of the time, you never hear anything from the OP again.”

This is my biggest beef too. And it’s why I check a users posting history. If all they do is ask questions and rarely if ever come back to a thread, I won’t bother myself writing a reply.
I sometimes make exceptions, for instance if I think the answer is useful to other readers too.

Edited to add; the quote above was taken from a post written by a poster who wrote an, in my opinion, very polite post. It saddens me to see that she felt the need to remove it.

Posted by
157 posts

The questions are truly getting to be like an AI inquiry….people too lazy to do research and instead just press the Rick Steves button for an answer. The unfiltered responses may leave one realizing there is no wrong answer to anything due to the plethora of often conflicting (but appropriate) answers.

Decline in grammar skills is definitely true. Responding like Hemingway rather than short crisp responses…on the upswing. Listing the number of responses from an OP makes me wonder how some have the time to travel. (I wish that “feature” would vanish”) Expecting gratitude for every response is perhaps a bridge too far in the social media age even if it’s the right thing to do.

Finally look in the mirror before casting aspersions (myself included) or judgement. This page is becoming much like FB and is losing the adventurous nature of a decade or more in the past.

Posted by
17766 posts

I agree that manners are changing as well as how some use the English language.

But it's both ways. I realilze that some people don't like my some of my responses. That's fine. But I've had one or two call what I write "ludicrous," ridiculous," "unnecessary" because my suggestion is not what they would do. Or they think their way is the only right way.

There is no one right way to travel. We all travel for different reasons. Pointing out other options is fine, in fact it's good, but if we are talking about manners, how about scolding those who are frequent responders who don't follow those basic principles of manners.

Posted by
1932 posts

You are completely right about bad forum manners. I would add two extra concerns: first, spend two minutes and research the spelling of the places you are going to; consider that search engines could give less results or bad results under a wrong spelling. You cannot invest money and time in getting in a place you don't even know the name.
Second, do a bit of research on your own. A lot of people asks: I am going to Florence or Edinburgh or Paris for two days, what I have to do? If you do not know what you want to see, why are you going there?

I would add that often having a look to a map works wonders, and with Google maps you have no excuses. A lot of questions would be answered just by looking to a map.

Posted by
55 posts

Communication styles have always changed. I’m sure all our grandparents would think how we speak or write now is wrong or rude as well.
I know my nephews think ‘old people’ are too wordy when they write, and apparently a full stop at the end of a text is now considered rude by the young. I have no idea why! :-)

I think when there are particularly short questions it is because the person asking is treating the forum as either a search engine or a chat bot. Why should they know that answers come from real people who are just responding because they enjoy travel? Cut people some slack. If they continue to be ‘rude’ as a conversation continues that is another matter.

I personally have no time for people of the grammar nazi persuasion. I am the product of a 1980s British comprehensive school education. We simply weren’t taught grammar to any depth. As long as a post is understandable that’s enough for me.

There are also cultural differences. There are words and phrases used on this forum that are obviously correct to American ‘ears’ but which sound clunky/wrong to my British ears. ‘Accommodations’, ‘docent’( I’m still not sure what they are), ‘transportations’ when transport will do, ‘y’all’ sounds particularly wierd, but none are wrong. And there are any number of British words and phrases that confuse other nations so does it really matter? The only one that does turn me full nazi if you use it is “could care less” when you mean couldn’t care less. It’s just wrong and I WILL judge you for it!

No one is forcing anyone to snswer a query. If you don’t agree with how something is written just ignore it and move on. And it never fails to amaze me how rude some people on this site can be when correcting other peoples mistakes or telling them to be polite or kind.

Posted by
502 posts

Taking it a stage further, I'm afraid I get irritated when several of us give a considered reply to a curt post, then the OP is never to be seen again!

Posted by
1316 posts

Lots to digest here. First of all what some brusque and curt is an interpretation. Curt could also mean a clear specific question. Often times question posts are too long, rambling and unclear exactly what is being asked. Or filled with multiple questions. I appreciate those who are succinct.
It seems that those who reply succinctly could also be called curt. Yet from personal points of view a short sentence person could perceive a rambler as a bore and unhelpful. Wordiness is not always an attribute. Especially in answer to a specific question. Think any politician.

Posted by
17766 posts

Mignon....I was not referring to non-native speakers. We are all appreciative that you have learned English. I'm talking about native "American" english speakers who don't have a clue.

I blame text messages, X formerly known as twitter, and any other way where thumbs are used in composition.

Posted by
23577 posts

The criticism of those who do not exhibit good manners is bordering on bad manners.

Posted by
3751 posts

The forum should be a welcoming place for new members. There’s even a forum guideline on the subject.

New travelers should be shown extra patience. If you can't write
politely, this forum is not for you.

And may I kindly suggest that those who are so quick to criticize take a look at your own behavior. I have answered multiple private messages from long time forum members who could not be bothered with a simple “thank-you” in response. Is that not bad manners?

Posted by
487 posts

Just to lighten things up a bit. For those of you that enjoy the proper use of the English language, you might check out reels from "English Enjoyed" on Facebook. He can be pretty hilarious and I've actually learned a few things!

Posted by
238 posts

Dear Forum Members,

I have learned so much from this forum. If I ever forgot to thank someone for advice given, I apologize. If I used improper grammar, I apologize. I'm wondering if some are taking this forum way to seriously. Isn't life too short to worry about so many of the things being griped about in this thread.

When we are new to something, we often make mistakes of various kinds. And, us oldsters need to face the fact the younger generations are communicating in new ways. We can accept it or spend our days whining about "the good old days."

Applause to Carol now retired, Emma, Mr. E, Mignon and Carrie for your posts on this thread.

With all due respect,

Traveler Girl

Posted by
1072 posts

Offense is taken, it's not given. I try to give posters the benefit of the doubt, assume that they mean well, and do not have the expectation that a poster - especially a new poster - have the same social mores that I do. If you do not like the tone of a post, just move on by and leave it.

The criticism of those who do not exhibit good manners is bordering on bad manners.

Absolutely

There is a flip side to this issue. Some long term forum members can also be guilty of a curt answer or making the OP feel like they asked a stupid question.

+1

The internet is not real life. If you're taking things personally, turn the computer off, go outside and touch grass.

Posted by
679 posts

Manners matters. Courtesy is important. We should be kind to everyone. I'm still hung up on yes mam, yes sir, please and thank you over 65 years after learning those in the South and from my parents.
That said, those of us who measure our words, polish our responses, linger on inflection, we are fossils or if not that, possibly a bit self-aggrandizing.
This is the internet and an open forum. Your time and responses are as much for self-fulfillment as they are helpful to those searching for advice. You cannot expect to polish the behavior of those who come here looking for information. They are under no obligation to offer you thanks, or to genuflect in your presence. If you chose to share your thoughts and opinions in an open forum, you should not have any particular expectations about how anyone interacts with you. If you do, that seems like a perfect path to peevishness.

Posted by
431 posts

'Your time and responses are as much for self-fulfillment as they are helpful to those searching for advice.' Couldn't agree with you more. This is the psychological essence of social media, including this forum. We post because we desperately want to be heard and seen, to imagine we matter. Expecting a response is the same as hoping for 'likes' the way young people do. I post my travel photos on FB. Why? Not for me, certainly (I have them saved. I can look at them anytime I want). I do it because in the back of my mind, I want my 'friends' to know that I have the privilege of travelling. And also to seek admiration for my self-ascribed photographic prowess. Some people here have over 10,000 posts to their credit. I don't know where they find the time, but I am sure it feels good.

Posted by
8756 posts

If someone’s post is curtly worded, demanding or such a general request that shows no initiative, I will just pass over it. I have also deleted a few of my replies this past year if the original poster has replied unkindly to someone else’s responses. I don’t want to send them to small hotels or restaurants I enjoyed, for instance, if they are rude.

I do receive private messages fairly often, requesting specific advice, and I am happy to say that almost everyone has responded with a “thank you” reply afterwards. So, manners still do exist.

Posted by
1996 posts

I find it pretty ironic that the criticism of those who care about good manners is bordering on bad manners.

Posted by
4289 posts

Some of this is generational. Gen Z and less so millennials generally tend to be very direct in conversation -- spoken and written. They tend to spend less time on social niceties (see recent media obsession with "Gen Z stare"). Part of coming of age in a COVID world where they had less face-to-face social encounters and more electronic encounters for an extended period of time? Or just the spilling over of texting culture into other parts of life? Neither bad or good to me -- just the way it is.

Posted by
626 posts

I am just thankful that I am still on this side of the dirt and I am politely asking the powers that be to not be in too much of a hurry to rectify that.

And please forgive my trespasses as I forgive those that trespass against me— except for those gate agents that over-scrutinize the size of my bag. Unforgivable!

I have not be around here as long as most of you and I am not always the most observant but I really haven't noticed much change. I love this place! You go to other social media and it’s doom and gloom. Even things designed to be nice like Facebook and Nextdoor seem to be algorithmically stirring the pot with worries about somebody is doing something-something and somebody else doesn’t like it one bit. Harrumph!

Here folks are nice. Well, except for me. (Between you and me, I wouldn't trust me!)

So CJean, I've enjoyed your comments. I love your spirited defense of Canada too! Way to go!

Happy travels.

Posted by
8756 posts

“And please forgive my trespasses as I forgive those that trespass against me— except for those gate agents that over-scrutinize the size of my bag. Unforgivable!”

David, humor covers a multitude of sins. ; )

Posted by
9509 posts

Dear alomaker - when you have been on this forum for over 17 years, you too may have over 10,000 posts without even trying. Some weeks I may post a lot 5x, and other weeks, not at all, but they eventually add up.

For the subject at hand. I easily scroll past the broad questions, with titles like "Europe" and the question, where should I go. etc. etc.

Posted by
10140 posts

There is a flip side to this issue. Some long term forum members can also be guilty of a curt answer or making the OP feel like they asked a stupid question. I see this happen from time to time. I write and then delete an answer from time to time knowing that I have fallen into the same trap. Seriously, if we all just try to put a little kindness into our posts and responses, we can maintain this community of travelers as the extremely helpful group that it is. I certainly have gained a great deal from its members over the years.

I agree with Carol NR. I've seen many posts that are cryptic, difficult to read and badly worded, and sometimes I cringe a little when reading, but I try to respond since I don't know the OP's circumstances. Are they dyslectic? Raised badly? Nervous about a trip and posting quickly? Even if they're not, and they're just lazy, none of us are perfect. We all have our idiosyncrasies and bad behavior (just ask my daughter about mine!), so I'm in the "use kindness and patience" camp. I'm definitely not perfect and I know I've ruffled feathers at times, but all we can do is try.

For what it's worth, I used to get irritated when I was driving and I would get behind a slow driver. I would mutter under my breath and get angrier until I could be released from their presence. But one day I remembered my mom. She used to drive like that; partly out of caution, partly out of nervousness, and mostly because she was old. So now when I start fuming, I imagine my mother sitting behind the wheel and the anger goes away. You might try that with these posters. Pretend it's your son or daughter or best friend who is nervous about coming here and doesn't know enough to post "correctly." I guarantee it will change your response.

Posted by
23577 posts

Ms Jo, you have a few thousand to go. But you know why I do this. Those well mannered comments are a little off base.

Posted by
2420 posts

Mardee,
Well put comment re slow drivers. I also fume when driving behind geezers (and I am a geezer also...81 years old). Yet I still get annoyed behind the slow drivers. I will take your idea to heart and picture my mom in that car! Likewise I will try harder to hold any irritations in check re the forum.

Good and thoughtful comments on the subject. Lots to think about! Thanks everybody!

Posted by
631 posts

I agree 1000% with what Mardee and Carol have said above. And in general, we should all keep in mind that we are free to ignore questions we find annoying for whatever reason. This isn't customer service we are paid to do- it's supposed to be a fulfilling pastime, sharing knowledge of something you are passionate about with others. Sometimes I see the responses people give and I think "if that response had been to me I would feel like an idiot and never ask anyone on here for advice again."

Posted by
78 posts

I'm not going to be ageist here because, as folks have already said, there are curt and brusque responses from all ends of the age spectrum. One person's impolite may be another's "efficient and to the point." And yes, I also find myself bristling a bit with some of the more curt queries and responses.

That said, a few things to consider:

The median age on this forum tends to be higher than, say, on Reddit - such is the typical viewer of PBS and Rick Steves' programming, in general. Nothing wrong with that, but it sets a basic bar against which to grade things.

But I'll put it this way: don't judge a book by its cover.

Some folks only ever use a smartphone for their internet access (or at least it's their primary means of access). Typing longer, more complete sentences with fingers and thumbs is not easy! This is how the new lingua franca of younger generations happened: once typing became tougher, sentences were truncated out of basic practicality. Does this mean the people communicating in this way are mean or impolite? It's impossible to say, to be completely honest.

I'll admit that I'm not always the most forgiving of some things I read here and on other travel forums. But I'm more likely to direct my criticism directly to the offender via direct message. Or, more often than not, I'll simply not say a thing. Sometimes it's not worth the bits and bytes.

The RS community is a wonderfully informed group that definitely has its strengths and weaknesses - and that's what makes it fun to be part of!

Cheers and good vibes to all!

Posted by
6479 posts

This thread has been a very interesting read, and the various viewpoints have certainly provided food for thought.

And David in Cleveland- i really enjoy your sense of humour. Lightening the mood is rarely a bad thing.

Posted by
5489 posts

To answer the original question, yes manners do still matter. As a southern grandmother once said, "Nobody thinks badly of people who use good manners". She also said "If you do it gracefully, tactfully, and with good manners, you can tell someone to go to h$&& and they will thank you for it".

Posted by
431 posts

@Ms. Jo: I looked it up. I joined a little over 5 years ago. I posted 427 times until now. At this rate, I will be at about 1450 in 17 years. I made a typo when I said 10,000. I meant the people who have the time and energy to have 20,000 posts to their credit. It must feel good to them.

Posted by
431 posts

y'all (yes, I live in the south now) making my post count go up faster than I expected! I won't name names, but this is aimed at those who have assumed the role of 'forum police' or 'forum teacher'. I am a bona fide professional teacher, but I don't come to an open and free space to be 'firm' with posters, or to teach them to ask 'better questions'! Who are we to give someone a 'free pass' or not? Let's get off our high horse. We are not discussing existential philosophy or quantum mechanics here. We are just a bunch of people with 'greater net worth than 98% of the world population' (a keenly observed quote from another thread) who are privileged to do something as mundane as crossing an international border to Western Europe.

Posted by
1072 posts

Why is it so hard to actually answer a poster's question as asked without the need for a deposition? And why is it that asking a question on a public forum not counted as research?

Posted by
1985 posts

I don't expect anyone to necessarily have done a lot of other research before posting inquiries here; I agree that this message board is its own form of research. On the other hand, I won't respond to questions that are worded confusingly or vaguely. I had to deal with vague and confused clients for over 40 professional years, and I'm now done with that.

Posted by
23577 posts

I grew up where not to say "yes ma'am" got the ruler across the wrist. On the otherhand my grandmother was a yankee and if you said yes ma'am to her you would get slapped and "I am not your ma'am". As for y'all my neighborhood it wasnt uncommon to hear "L'Chaim y'all". And here in Budapest I am teaching the locals "köszönöm ya'all". Now, "we-be goin" and "y'all come back now, ya hear" are both a whole different thing.

Posted by
2882 posts

I used to have a friend with a front doormat that said "Shalom, Y'all" She has lived in California all her life, so go figure.

Posted by
435 posts

I think y'all is plural. Being not from the South, I could be accused of cultural appropriation, but this word is really handy sometimes - for example, if you are shopping and want to ask the shopkeeper if the store carries something, it makes more sense to ask "do y'all have socks?" The shopkeeper may or may not personally have some, but I want to know if the store does.

Posted by
1985 posts

Y'all is properly plural, but commonly misused as singular. The Pittsburgh "yinz" is also plural and seldom misused as a singular. The northeast "youse?" No clue.

Posted by
9391 posts

IME, the plural of "y'all" is "all y'all".

To the OP's original question, if manners are important to you, then they are important. I, for one, do judge people by their manners. And I think most people do, they just aren't going to do anything about it, since commenting on another's manner is itself, bad manners. To bring it back to travel, not saying bonjour when you enter a French store, is bad manners, for an example.

The whole etiquette of communicating skills on social media is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Posted by
23577 posts

To bring it back to travel, not saying howdy! when greeting an Aggie is bad manners, for example.

Posted by
7599 posts

Manners are subjective. Brevity can be both a blessing and a curse. The written word is by nature ambiguous and fickle; words never cease to fail me, personally; I think it's the same for others who are honest with themselves. And writing skills are highly variable.

I am far from omniscient. I don't think I can accurately judge someone's politeness/impoliteness from the average forum post, so I don't bother trying.

Posted by
626 posts

My mother-in-all said it is objectively bad manners to say “y’all” with your mouth full of grits. Good manners demanded you finish chewing and swallow your food first. And my mother-in-law was a school teacher for decades so she knew a thing or two about teaching manners to youngens. (Also pronounced yoots if you’ve watched my cousin Vinny.)

Happy travels.

Posted by
393 posts

This is an interesting discussion including the proper use of y’all.:-) I grew up in the South but that was a long time ago.

David in Cleveland, I love your funny comment which incorporates your mother-in-law’s views on manners, grits and a reference to My Cousin Vinny.

Posted by
431 posts

And then there is 'all y'all'!
Also, when I moved to NC, I discovered hush puppies (not the shoe brand) and shrimp 'n grits!

Posted by
23577 posts

Would good manners include behaving especially respectful when visiting the home of someone not yet a close friend?