Discussion: Follow Euro Laws/Customs or American Ones?

I've got the same opinion as many of the other responders. Our kids our now 17 and 13, and we allow them to have a glass of wine with meals at home. Our 17yo son has developed an interest in scotch (he actually doesn't like wine or beer), so we allow him to have a small glass of scotch occasionally. We strongly believe in teaching responsible drinking. So in Europe, they can have a drink with a meal there, too. That analysis is in line with our moral philosophy, in either location (home or Europe). Re pot, I believe it should be legalized, though I never have tried it and have no interest in doing so, in the U.S. or in the Netherlands. I wouldn't buy it for my kids, even if they were adults, but if they were adults and in Amsterdam on their own, that's their choice.

I visit Switzerland often and I wish I could be subject to their tax laws...

We've allowed drinking at home (but absolutely no driving) for our then teenagers and when we travel to Europe and elsewhere kept the same standard.

We allowed our daughters to try beer or cider if they wanted to while in England since they were of legal age for England, and their friends who went with us were given permission by their parents to do so also. They knew that when we were at home that they were not allowed to drink in our home.

When we took our then 20 year old daughter to Europe we didn't have a problem with her drinking (not to excess of course) and we took her to a couple of cool bars. In Bruges she discovered cherry beer and took a liking to it. She bought a few bottles in Paris and had one left when it was time to go home. She took it home, but her dad insisted that she couldn't drink it until she turned 21, which was 5 months later. I would have let her drink it before her birthday, but dad said no and she had to wait. I have somewhat of that 'when in Rome' philosophy as long as it doesn't conflict with my moral values. I didn't partake in the coffee shops in Amsterdam, not because I felt it was wrong, but I just wasn't interested. That isn't what I went to Amsterdam for, although I know plenty of people do. Frankly, if I wanted to smoke I can do that at home! Edit- for the record if my daughter had not been less than 6 months away from turning 21 I doubt we would have allowed her to drink. As it was, she bought 3 bottles of cherry beer to drink in the apartment we rented for 10 nights and ended up bringing one of those bottles home, so she hardly overdid it!

Since I don't subscribe to the notion that drugs are a normal and almost required part of life, no. Nothing would change in our approach to what we do or don't do when traveling in Europe with our children. We don't drink or frequent "coffeehouses" so naturally they don't either. When they become adults on their own, they will chart their own path. And no, I don't think it's wiser to get them to "practice" drinking at an earlier age. That just presupposes drinking is necessary to life. It isn't. I can't know what choices they will make as adults, but I know them well enough (and I know I have raised them well enough) to know that their choices will not be based on some thoughtlessly reflexive desire to do just the opposite of their parents. However, we did visit a clothing optional beach in France. And since there was no place provided to change into swim suits, we had no problem doing it out in the open on a quiet corner of the beach. I suppose that qualifies a little for the "when in Rome" proponents...

Opinions on this topic are going to be highly personal, of course, but I generally agree with Randy's first paragraph. However, I will also suggest that most teenagers do one or all of the following at some point: drink, smoke a little weed, and have sex. One can dispute the percentages, but this is a fact of life. But that doesn't mean parents/adults should be condoning it, offering it, contributing to it – that's a seriously slippery slope. It's a much easier answer for adults – adults can and should do whatever they wish, as long as it's not illegal and nobody gets hurt as a result (including hurting themselves). Regarding that AA thing, alcoholics cannot return to social drinking and be okay...the scientific data suggest otherwise.

Ralph, please do not call European residents, Euros. That is what the money is called. It is rude. Do you like being called an Ami? That is also rude and Germans do it when they want to put down Americans. As to your comment that Europeans don't know what AA is or subscribe to it, you might want to rethink that. AA is alive and well in all countries of the world, both in English and in the native languages. There are just as many drunks in Europe as there are everywhere else. One often hears the fallacy that the Europeans learn how to drink at a young age, and thus don't go overboard and become alcoholics. Not true. You might want to check out the detox units in the hospitals. Most of them have AA meetings in them. Each family ought to do what feels right to them. If taking a drink is not part of your lifestyle, I can't imagine you would want your teen to partake while on vacation, just because it is legal. Have to say, I much prefer the teens drinking for a couple of years and then getting a drivers license and not the other way around. Pushing the drinking age to 21 in the US hasn't done much, except to make binge drinking even more popular. It is so hypocritical to say you can serve your country, vote, get married, and sign contracts, but you can't have a beer or glass of wine. Completely bizarre and senseless.

In Germany...I would follow the German custom should that situation arise, and not a Berliner Kindl Radler, another choice of Berlin beer. About the "coffee houses" in Amsterdam....totally not interested, irrelevant.

I allowed my 17 year old to drink when we spent a few weeks in Europe after High School graduation and would do so again. When in Rome... :-)

I certainly started drinking before I was 21 while in France. Had to have my mother buy wine when I got home. But I was almost legal by then. I personally wouldn't have an issue letting my teens drink a little. The idea that it is some kind of "moral" issue is weird, unless I guess you are of a religion that finds drinking at all sinful. I can understand some of the rationales for a higher drinking age, but morality is not one of them. It sometimes seems that only the USA can come up with such sillyness. I also vehemently note that the idea of Europe as homogenous on alcohol is silly. There are some nations that seem to drink very responsibly and in moderation, and others that seem prone to excesses. And in my un-scientific study, it seems much more to do with culture and taxes than a drinking age.

In our home the kids were always allowed some wine if they wanted it. Today, they are responsible beer drinkers. They grew up in a bi-cultural household. Sarah, iinstead of a bar, why don't you suggest granny take her 16 year old to a beer garden.

In our family, we chose to teach our kids to obey the law. So no underage drinking at home. In Europe, if they were old enough, I would have no problem with letting them have a beer or glass of wine. I think it's good to have standards and follow them. It's up to each family to decide on those standards. Taking a child to a bar or letting him/her drink so he/she will think you are cool is a very bad idea. (Not sure if you were serious s out that, Sarah.)

Obviously we don't do anything that's illegal in the country we are visiting while we are there. As for things legal abroad and illegal here in the U.S., it's a questions of morals and inclination. Personally I think laws prohibiting youths drinking at home or in restaurants when they supervised by their parents are silly. I think kids who learn at home are less likely to binge or make mistakes when they reach drinking age. So I'd let them drink in Europe with us wherever it's legal there. Marijuana has little appeal for me, so I'm not likely to try to try it abroad, but I don't think it's immoral.

Many questions here, Sarah. In regard of drinking age restrictions, if I had a teenage daughter or son I'd, in all likelihood, not take him or her to a bar where he or she can legally enter while traveling but not at home. And I'd do that for a simple reason: teenagers aren't fully developed to understand, maybe, that what might be cool at age 16 in Germany won't be legal (and can get them in serious trouble) in US until age 21. But I think that depends on parents as well. I know my own parents wouldn't interfere or undermine me with whatever standard of rules I educate my hypothetical son or daughter with, other families might have other feelings about that. The case is even worse with smoking marijuana. And here my opinion is personal: I frown upon any kind of smoking (I'm very blessed to be born in a family where none of my parents, siblings, 1st degree cousins, uncles or aunt smokes - only the husband of one of my aunts to that and that is why he usually feels out of place in family reunions). I think of people who smoke anything as junkies on the way to lung cancer. Conversely, I'm in favor of legalization of most so-called drugs if only to remove their "cool", "hipster" aura that attract naïve youngsters and relegate them to some trailer trash/ghetto image. The laws in regard of coffeeshops in Netherlands are being rolled in a schedule that will make them applicable to Noord-Holland (the province where Amsterdam is situated) in January 2013. From that point onwards, patronizing a coffeeshop without the resident pass will be no more less criminal than buying drugs from a street dealer, being the seller subject to harsh financial penalties and the buyer with fines. I find morally reprehensible to ignore laws you don't agree with just because you are a tourist.

This reminds me of a time I was home from college, probably age 19... my grandmother cooked dinner for me and gave me a tall glass of beer to go with it. I felt all grown up. My grandmother was very conservative in general but was of German stock.

Growing up in Ohio, at 18 I could drink 3.2 beer and nothing stronger. Then they got rid of the near beer, and at 19 I could drink regular beer, but that was it until 21. It may still be the case in Indiana, that an 18 year old woman married to a 21 year old man could drink in a bar as long as he was present to account for her. (Yeah, can you believe that one?!) My point is that alcohol laws are arbitrary. Would I let my teens drink? Just did, in Canada, with my 19 yr old. I think a glass of wine over dinner and a discussion of different cultures and laws is a fine thing.

Great responses! Thanks everyone for weighing in, I'm a little surprised at how diverse the attitudes are, but that's what makes the helpline an interesting place! I think overall it's worth noting that in North America, different cultures have different attitudes towards drinking, too. In a Jewish household, a teenager will be probably getting drunk, supervised by his or her parents, at least twice a year due to religious holidays and customs. Yet Jews have the lowest rate of alcoholism of any ethnic group in the U.S. - this in a group where alcohol is drunk at dinner at least once a week, from a very young age, relatively. I have heard it is also more common in Italian-American families for underage folks to be given a glass of wine during dinner as well. I am of the personal opinion that this normalized, regulated approach to alcohol is healthy and is less likely to result in the kind of binge-drinking that is so prevalent in underage teens/adults. Obviously others disagree. Randy - good point about nude beaches, I hadn't thought about that but it is certainly a "when in Rome!" moment. I know many expats who are fine with the lax drinking laws here who find the idea of a public sauna totally perverted and weird. Michael - Not so related to my original question, but I think parentally supervised drinking actually takes the "mystique" out of drinking. But that may be a product of my culture where ritualized drinking, usually in small amounts, is the norm. Jo - I agree that the 21 age limit in the US makes no sense since we can send kids at 18 off to war. Quite bizarre and abnormal. Aside from Islamic countries, only India has stricter drinking laws as far as I'm aware.

Lexma - I'm kind of impressed that your son has a taste for scotch at 17. I'm 32 and I've tried but I still can't stand the stuff (prefer mezcal or a good tequila, or a rye). Tom - lol Douglas - What cultures/countries in Europe do you think abuse alcohol and which ones do you find more normal? I find the German approach to it both kind of sane (dont' let your kids drive til they're 18, but drink when they're 16, OK) but on the other hand, my German friends say most people here still drive drunk, despite the heavy punishment for doing so, and I must say, I'd never seen a grown man wet his pants from drinking until I'd been to Germany, and now I've seen it happen at least four times. I'd say in general Germans have a healthy approach to alcohol as opposed to the way we demonize most drinking in the US, but it also seems this "healthy approach" rationalizes a lot of alcoholism as well and that's not good. Do you think some countries/cultures "get it right"? Bets - I was actually thinking of the Mitte Strand which is sort of a biergarten but not technically. There aren't a lot of "real" biergartens in central Berlin, but there are a lot of nice outdoor areas to grab a bier. But yeah, that's what I had in mind. A 16 year old wouldn't be allowed into an indoor smoking bar anyway. Carroll - I was somewhat serious, but again, I am now used to seeing kids as young as 14 drinking in public. I don't personally feel letting a 16 year old - who is probably drinking at parties anyway, or if not, will be in a year or two - have a radler supervised by grandma is a bad idea. But I'm not a parent. If I were a parent, I'd be OK with this.

Andre - I find it odd that you think smoking marijuana makes one a "junkie" but I am familiar with that stance. And I'm not here to debate in favor/against drug use, just about customs and travel. In my past personal experience, however, pot somkers being "junkies" is far from the case. But I'm from San Francisco where you can smoke a joint in a public park but not a cigarette. However you make a good point about the laws. It's not relevant to me, as the wife of a US government employee, I'm under harsher regulations than the average US tourist and cannot engage in any activity that is illegal under US federal law. But everyone should be informed. I do wonder about the sense of the new law in the Netherlands, however, and what it will do to their tourism. Karen - Couldn't agree with you more. and James in typical form, but I also agree.

"....Yet Jews have the lowest rate of alcoholism of any ethnic group in the U.S. - this in a group where alcohol is drunk at dinner at least once a week, from a very young age, relatively...." A lot of Jewish households, including my own, substitute grape juice for wine. There was never a drop of alcohol in my house growing up, and we celebrated Sabbath every week. ".... have heard it is also more common in Italian-American families for underage folks to be given a glass of wine during dinner as well. I am of the personal opinion that this normalized, regulated approach to alcohol is healthy and is less likely to result in the kind of binge-drinking that is so prevalent in underage teens/adults. Obviously others disagree...." I'll disagree. On the flip side I know lots of other families who have large stocks of alcohol on hand, have lots of problems with substance abuse with all the family members which are then handed down to future generations, with all the misery that goes with it.

Michael - I'm more familiar with grape juice being for the under 13 set, but apparently it's different for some families. Older teenagers/young adults getting drunk on Pesach/Purim or even at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a fairly common thing in general in American Jewish culture, though, wouldn't you agree? I'm not saying this is "proof" that parentally supervised drinking is always a good thing, but I also don't think the stereotypically American way of "drinking is bad, don't do it" seems to work either. Both the U.S. and European countries have problems with alcoholism, alcohol abuse, and binge drinking (and in Europe it varies widely by country) but the attitudes are different and the outcomes are different and at some point that has to correlate with culture. But I don't think anyone "has it right". I do think some approaches are better than others, personally. And very often the American approach to these issues is vastly different from the approach of various European cultures/countries and it made me wonder what happens when these things collide.

Sarah, you forgot about drinking at a Passover sedar. I still remember as a kid drinking that nasty Manischewitz grape wine.

So it's a bad idea to expose a teen to a supervised drinking in moderation lesson (whether in the privacy of one's home, or in a pub/restaurant/bar in foreign countries where legal drinking age is 16-18), yet it's a good idea to expose them to their parents frolicking in the surf at the 'clothing optional' beach? Sorry, but if I had to sit on a beach & witness my Dad's junk hanging out there for everyone to see at the tender age of 16, I'd have started drinking heavily! My parents are not big drinkers - in fact, in their liquor cabinet today are several bottles of scotch that have been sitting around unopened for 20-30 years that just collect dust. At dinner parties when they would have friends over, they did not mind if we had a glass of wine or beer. When we traveled overseas to visit relatives & I was 16 & it was legal they did not mind if I had a drink in pubs, bars or restaurants. They stressed the importance of not drinking excessively & never driving or getting in a car with anyone who has had a drink. By the time I was 18 & went to Cancun for Spring Break, I was grateful that I could have a couple of margaritas and not be like the kids with the helicopter parents who had never been permitted to drink before but had made it to Mexico then spent half the night hanging off the edge of the bar getting tequila poured down their throat & the other half barfing it up on the beach. Pot? I can't imagine ANY 16 year old wanting to light one up in the presence of an older family member (legally or not). And while everyone debates the "morals" of exposing teens to booze & alcohol, let's not forget the easiest drugs for them to get their hands on & abuse are often the legally prescribed medications mommy & daddy get from the local pharmacy then leave laying about the house...

A bit off topic, but I think it's interesting to note; Studies on drinking in the US usually show that about 1/3rd of the population either doesn't drink at all or drinks so infrequently as to be almost the same thing (one can imagine a few obligatory sips at a wedding). And there is little indication that the choice has any basis in religion (it certainly doesn't for me). Yet, predictably, in situations like this thread, almost everyone seems to be a drinker. It's a curious thing. Personally, I have noticed that people who drink talk about drinking frequently, while people who don't...don't. I think people who drink would be surprised to learn how many people don't. (Kinda like hockey fans...) And in a similar vein, while I would never suggest that a parent allowing a child to drink (in extreme moderation) under their supervision is doing anything inappropriate, one message it clearly does send is that drinking is an expected part of adulthood. It seems very unlikely to me that any of these children will become part of the 1/3rd of the population above.

As for the Jewish thing... do you have a Jewish mother, Sarah? Because I do and even though it was ok to have a few drinks under her supervision, to push the envelope in her presence and get tipsy would have meant a serious b#tch slap upside the head from her. Fortunately, when she did let us drink wine it was not that disgusting kosher stuff in a big jug. But I'm sure the super orthodox set would find her morally reprehensible as she's in a Jewish nursing home now and at least once a month asks us to smuggle in pork fried rice, bacon or anything with shrimp in it to eat in her room as the kitchen is completely kosher. Yes, we are totally "breaking the law" by ignoring that rule - but she's got a private room and the food coming out of that kitchen looks pretty dull so if she wants some shrimp spring rolls I'm ok with bringing them to her from time to time!

"but I'll just submit that study after study suggests a strong correlation between parents offering alcohol to kids in the home and substance abuse later in life." Not exactly. It's that alcoholic parents tend to produce kids that eventually follow in their parent's foot steps, and that many alcoholic parents tend to tolerate their kids boozing far more than parents who either abstain or drink in moderation.

"....Older teenagers/young adults getting drunk on Pesach/Purim or even at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a fairly common thing in general in American Jewish culture, though, wouldn't you agree?..." No not I'm my experience. In my neck of the woods the receptions for Bar Mitzvahs are typically held at the banquet rooms at the Synagogue, and no alcohol is allowed to be served; period. All my family/friends are Conservative or Orthodox. Alcohol has never been served to minors at any Passover Sedar I've ever attended. Supermarkets around here prominently display both Manchweitz, and Kedam grape juice. It ain't just kids consuming it.

Michael/Ceidleh - I guess my experiences just differ wildly (especially wrt to Michael's). While I'm a California hippy Jew, the biggest partiers I know when it comes to Jewish holidays are my buttoned up Conservadox New Jersey ex-in-laws. My former father-in-law was so not a drinker, he'd rarely ever have a beer, maybe only while watching a Hockey game, but he did the four full glasses at the seder and let his kids do so once they were over the age of 15 or so. Even at 13 they'd usually start with one glass and then switch to grape juice for the kids. And the craziest wedding I ever went to was held in a Princeton conservative synagogue. I did think it was a bit strange to be drinking champagne before the wedding even started in the shul lobby, but that's how it went. I guess even within cultures there are very different practices wrt drinking. My personal opinion is that the low rates of overall drinking amongst Jews is due to Manischevitz. If that's your idea of alcohol, who would want to drink regularly? Ceidleh - the story of you smuggling in delicious Chinese food is hilarious. My family's personal rule is that Chinese food exists beyond the realm of kosher, lol. Overall one thing I find interesting about this discussion is that it's on a Rick Steves' forum - a man who famously advocates for the legalization of marijuana and is an admitted user. He doesn't seem like a junky to me. As far as nude beaches go, I'm fine with most German customs that differ from American ones, but one that will always be strange to me is being nude in front of your family. I just can't imagine, it's so far out of the realm of my culture to even imagine it.

Jeff's reported incidents touch on the "immorality" of teen drinking that I mentioned. It's actually the only post that did so, even though others mention the moral issues of breaking rules/laws. Anyway, his anecdotes show the tendency of some Americans to view teen drinking as some kind of moral outrage/abuse, rather than just a potentially bad idea if unsupervised. I was also asked about my reference to differences in drinking throughout Europe. My own observations and understandings (generalizations and not scientific) is that some southern nations like Greece, Spain, Portugal and to some extent Italy, have a cultural aversion to public intoxication. Brits and Germans have no some qualms. Taxes in some Baltic countries limit consumption there, though I'm not sure if the culture frowns on heavy drinking.

OK, so I am the grandma (aka Nanny... they do Not call me g'ma) who took the 15 year old to Paris and let him have a half glass of wine with dinner. Not sure if I broke the law or not, but it was Paris.... If my kids trust me enough to take their child on trips to Europe they would have to trust my judgement on this...so I never asked... and it seems not to have adversely affected him in any way. Now, if we had gone to a nude beach I am sure the trips with Nanny would be over forever. The exact birthday does not make one a responsible adult....Drive 16, Vote 18, Fight in war 18...but no drinking till 21....stupid!

Can they call you Gam Gam? Sorry...just watched Horrible Bosses. Anyway, I'm not judging anyone here, but I'll just submit that study after study suggests a strong correlation between parents offering alcohol to kids in the home and substance abuse later in life. I won't cite the studies here, but you can do all of your own research on the topic. Clearly, not every kid in this situation will abuse alcohol, but the data suggest a huge problem with this generally. We all have our own beliefs, opinions, etc., but sometimes you just have to understand the science.

I'm sure that's true, but brain development in teenagers is affected by alcohol, such that those drinking by age 15 are something like four times more likely to develop alcoholism later in life. I'm definitely not suggesting any parent offering alcohol to their kids is automatically irresponsible. And I'm not suggesting all kids who drink a glass of wine at dinner are destined to live out their days on Skid Row praying to Korean Jesus (you have to see 21 Jump Street). I'm just citing a few facts to consider. How one raises his own children is a highly personal thing.

Sarah, I knew you were asking a serious question (and interesting one), but I wasn't sure if you were serious about letting a kid drink in an effort to to be the coolest grandma ever. The minute you start making parenting decisions based on wanting your kids/grandkids to think you're cool, you are sunk. Every kid is different; every parent is different. No guidelines are going to work for every family, and who knows what is the best way to parent. I think you just have to set standards and stick to them. Kids need guidelines. I think the idea that if you let them do something in your home, then they will behave responsibly may be a myth. Maybe they learn to drink responsibly, but if they want to rebel -- and a lot of kids do -- they'll find a way.

I think it is important for my future children to learn how to respect laws and rules in general, and respecting them even when you disagree with them and try to change that. But that is just me... I think it is highly detrimental for a child's education to have parents who tolerate unlawful behavior because "the law is wrong anyways". Those are parents who may later be called to bail out their offspring from the police department or call lawyers. This being said, I'm personally in favor of legalization of most drugs, from production to consumption, as a lesser evil. But then a second aspect come: morality. Even if drugs were legal (first threshold), that doesn't mean I'd accept my kids using them while living in my house, and they would be in deep trouble if I had found out. Now in regard of driving, I don't see what is this fuss about. If teens are sober and properly trained, I personally don't see any reason for them not to driving at age 15 or 14 with some psychological tests and good driver ed. But I'd not let my child drive at age 14 or 15 is that is illegal in the place I'm living in, even if I disagree with laws restricting driving to age 18 (there is some trend to lower it in certain European countries so that, at least, teens can do all the driving ed before they complete age 17 or 18). In any case, what I don't get is this almost creepy fascination for stereotypical behavior in this forum and the sweeping generalizations like "euro parents are used to go to nude beach with kids" or "European teenagers drink from early age" or else. Imagine if they were to generalize thing like "Americans eat only at fast foods" or "Americans go with concealed weapons to Six Flags all the time".

Andre - for me, the issue is, I don't think most parents know what their teens/young adults are doing without their knowledge anyway, and I tend to think the ones that think they do are fooling themselves. We were all teenagers once, yeah? Maybe we didn't all engage in illicit behavior, but most people do, and most of the time, our parents didn't have a clue. My father to this day doesn't seem to realize that I drink, despite the fact that I spent several years as a wine retailer. (It is difficult to sell something if you don't know your product). I'm sure he would be shocked to know what I was getting up to when I was 17 or 18, and I was a well behaved child who waited far longer than the vast majority of my peers to go a little crazy, and do this day my exploits aren't exactly legendary. Parents often project onto their kids what they think their kids should do and ignore any reality to the contrary. As far as generalizations, I don't think they're creepy, although I personally am careful to not generalize to Europeans as a whole and specify what I feel I have enough knowledge about to generalize to. I wouldn't say "the Dutch let their teens drink," because I have no idea, I only know one Dutch person. But I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what Germans do and what is consistent across German culture while allowing for regional differences and individual differences within the culture. The comfortableness with adult family nudity was so bizarre to me that it's something I regularly talk to Germans about, and every single one so far has confirmed that it's not a big deal and is somewhat common and that I have a weird American hangup about it. These are pretty normal folks so I feel OK to generalize about that.

Michael from Des Moines - The thing is, we're talking about cultural norms and you and others who share your opinion are strangely only considering studies and stats from the USA. We have a fairly unique Puritian heritage that left us awfully conflicted about a few things like sex and alcohol. I have no doubt that parents who are permissive of their teens drinking in the US correlates with higher rates of abuse and bad outcomes, but our culture affects that. As far as I've read, in the parts of Europe where the drinking age is lower and drinking with meals is far more common (which is most of Western Europe) the studies do NOT find the same results. It seems weird to me in a thread about cultural norms people are still automatically throwing a US perspective into everything. Just because in the US teen drinking correlates with bad outcomes does not mean it does in other parts of the world. Indeed, on the whole the evidence shows quite the opposite. Americans on the whole drink far less than Western Europeans but we have much higher rates of alcoholism, alcohol-related accidents, and the like than most countries in Western Europe (Britain and Ireland may be exceptions, and many Eastern European countries have a huge problem with alcohol abuse).

Andre; While I don't think we agree 100% on this issue, I thought your last post was very well put. I can see how a younger single person or couple wanting to "experience" Europe would want to try everything - to walk in every shoe, so to speak. But the idea that a parent visiting Europe with children in tow would do exactly the same seems more than a little odd to me. It's also seems odd to me that this question arises out of differences in laws from one country to another. While I agree that following laws is important, the law never says you HAVE TO drink. Never in my life have my actions regarding drug use had anything to do with what the law said (or what religion said or what the Puritans said, for that matter), so the last thing on my mind walking around another country is what the drug use laws might be.

"study after study suggests a strong correlation between parents offering alcohol to kids in the home and substance abuse later in life" I have heard this too. What I question is whether "offering alcohol" includes parents that sponsor teen drinking parties, or allow their teen to crack a couple cold ones with them while watching a game... I think what this thread is focussed on are teens that are exposed to alcohol in moderation and in a socially responsible manner. I also think the overall drinking culture of the US can overwhelm the positive influences parents might try and make with moderate exposure at home. While I've tried to make clear my generalizations, I think we can all agree there are significant cultural differences on alcohol between the US and much of Europe.

Actually, Sarah, I think you have confused laws with morality, cultural mores, norms, and traditions. Even in your original question, you've mixed these together. And you asked for opinions...that's what you got. As for my own replies, I think I've shared facts more than opinions, but it is what it is. And I really don't care about these types of studies worldwide, but my guess is that there are plenty of university studies with similar scientific data in Europe and elsewhere. And I was just referring to studies regarding the effects of alcohol on developing teenagers – AMA studies & lots of university studies on this topic. I haven't touched at all on studies of the sociological or psychological variety that you sort of allude to. While the studies I referenced are from the US, don't you think scientific research reaches beyond borders? I mean, the Earth is round in the USA, and it's round in Europe, too. Would I follow the laws of any country I'm visiting, regardless of what our laws are back home? Yes. Would I allow my teenagers to drink alcohol in Europe just because it's legal and widely accepted based on tradition, culture, norms, mores, et al? See my first reply. What else was it you wanted to know?

Michael, I maybe did not communicate very clearly to you. My original question(s) encompassed both laws and morality, obviously, and I am grateful for the opinions, of course! That is what I was curious about. But no, as someone with a background in sociological/psychological research I can't agree that there's any evidence that studies regarding parental attitudes towards teen drinking in the USA would be consistent in totally different cultures with totally different norms. That makes no sense - cultures and norms are a huge confounding factor in this kind of research. I mean, for starters, issues with alcoholism and binge drinking vary wildly between European countries with similar laws, so obviously culture plays a huge factor there. Ireland/UK and Eastern Europe have far higher rates of negative outcomes associated with drinking than do most other Western European countries. In all places, the laws for teen drinking and parental attitudes towards teen drinking, while not the same, are all more liberal than in the U.S. Now it's true that there are some scientific aspects that will be true across the board - for instance, recent studies show that heavy or binge drinking has detrimental affects in teenage brains specifically. That's not going to change based on someone's nationality. But that doesn't speak to what impact laws, culture, and norms have on outcomes like alcoholism, binge drinking, drinking-related violence, and drinking-related accidents. Those are things that culture can and does affect. I think this link outlines the different cultural ways drinking is impacted pretty well: http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking3.html