Discussion about Overtourism, why?

Wow. Sounds… yikes. Thanks for asking this question, and starting the conversation! I’m fascinated to hear what folks here say.

I believe this is the new normal. Countries like China, India, Brasil, and Indonesia now have a middle class, as do many other countries. And many don't want to save money because of inflation. So they buy things or experiences.

With social media, the usual tourist places are at the top of everyone's list. But there are still new Back Doors to be found.

Covid forced many workers into alternative employment venues; many had to re-invent themselves and/or their lifestyles, which in many cases led to more flexible work responsibilities - and more opportunities to get away. A lot of people who wanted to travel before but couldn't are traveling now, I think, no matter what season it is.

"Revenge" might be part of it too, but I also sense a lot of fear that waiting until age 60+ to travel is a flawed strategy... when the authorities all around the planet have shown that they can shut down planes, hotels, and restaurants almost instantly with a wave of their hands, you'd better see the world before the next lab screw-up, while it's still seeable.

So crowded as to be described "wall to wall" , the 3 cities inundated with tourists, then I am glad that I only go in the summer.

I haven't noticed Vienna where I was last and this past summer to be excessively crowded, at least not where it pertains to my preferred hotel reservations at Westbahnhof, basically got the dates I wanted with an average acceptable price.

Budapest is only at pre-covid tourism levels. So if it's that bad, then it's something that started a long time ago. Personally I don't see it. I live in a tourist zone and it's not bad at all by my view. Of course the Chrstmas markets in the evening are a different world. Pretty crowded.

Prague had been wall to wall tourists for at least 10 years. Nothing new there.

Vienna, just in the ring road.

Why? Simply could be that there are more people in the world overall. The places they visit are the same size.

Agree to more people and like to add that the generation heritage needs destinations for the money.

So, we will likely see more regulation trends such as in Venice.

Still smiling when I remember having a Norwegian waterfall tourist spot for 2 hours nearly alone for myself to learn and test photography.

MarkK, that waterfall is in Bosnia now.

There is a lot of truth about the increase in tourism. But there is a lot of hype too. Its a subject that sells clicks and a great topic for something called Illusory Truth Effect. What is "Overtourism" anyway and who gets to define it? MarkK's waterfall was pefect for him when he went, but now if he goes and there are 3 others there, can he define the situation as over tourism? Or maybe only the locals get to make the definition? Your over tourism might be a local persons income for retirement or trip to Australia for the winter. Is it over tourism when Salzburg hotels can charge $1200 a night for a $200 a night room because its the Summer Music Festival ... and still sell every room in town? Or is this simply one of the world's great music events and the crowds (broke crowds) are part of the atmosphere that make it a lifetime experience?.

Interesting thing about the Illusory Truth Effect, is that often when proven wrong and demonstrated to be wrong the false-truth still carries impact in decision making by those knowing its false.

I won't use the term overtourism but I will say that the most popular destinations are getting more crowded.

I find, except for a few exceptions, I'm focusing in on smaller cities and towns to visit that may not be in all the guidebooks. I'm also spending the most popular travel times--aka summer--staying longer in certain destinations off the radar of most tourists. This allow me to rest and plan future travels.

Along with more crowds comes more demand for flights, transport, logding and food. This usually mean higher prices.

The vast majority of visitors to European cities are other Europeans. The growth of cheap carriers like EasyJet and Ryanair in the last 20 years has made it easy and affordable to take short breaks all over the continent and it’s very normal to do so. At work people are always going off somewhere for a weekend - Krakow, Copenhagen and Berlin have all been mentioned in recent weeks. In the past one foreign holiday a year would be the norm. Now it’s more like one summer holiday and couple of short breaks.

And with Eastern bloc countries like Poland getting wealthier there are many more people who can afford to take holidays in Greece, Spain etc.

In earlier years, I wonder how many people took more than one trip per year, as do some of us on this forum. I also think that for many people in the past, travel was seen as an occasional expensive luxury and now for many of us it's seen as a normal part of our budgets. In the US, for many tourist destinations, the problem isn't tourists who visit and leave, it's the ones who come back to stay, driving up housing prices way beyond the levels that locals can afford to pay.

the problem isn't tourists who visit and leave, it's the ones who come
back to stay, driving up housing prices way beyond the levels that
locals can afford to pay.

One persons problem is another person's (the local land owner) benefit. I feel good about making the locals more wealthy.

" The vast majority of visitors to European cities are other Europeans." How true.

You see this in the chain hotels, (who are the guests at breakfast?) such as Ibis, Motel One, etc , at the cultural / tourist sites, on the day and night trains.

Night train routes I take are filled with European travelers of all ages, from 20 somethings and their backpacks to middle age passengers. The common factor is they are all Europeans, in Austria and Germany they are all German riding the OeBB Night Jet.

Good that they make up the increased passenger load, which means more night route options could be put in place.

Good discussion! One thing that I've really noticed in the last two years are the people who are COMPLETELY driven by social media in where they travel. For example, in the Dolomites, EVERYONE has to go to Lago Sorapis, Pragser Wildsee, Passo Giao, Seceda, etc., get their selfie and move on. The trails to these places are insanely crowded not by people who are enjoying a leisurely hike, admiring the amazing scenery, but people who stop, get that perfect selfie, spend 5 minutes editing their picture and composing that perfect bragworthy post. This is done not in their hotel room that night, but buried in their phone while standing on the trail, completely oblivious to what is around them. As a person who has family and friends both in tourist areas of both Italy and Switzerland, the lack of courtesy to the locals just drives me nuts. I grew up both in San Francisco and Switzerland, so I've seen it firsthand. How would tourists like it if we stood on their lawn, blocked their driveway or just made a simple trip to the grocery store a complete PITA?

I feel good about making the locals more wealthy.

Seems like wealth is just money for you?

So, when everyone thinks of themselves, then everyone is thought of?

And sorry to say but also the mentioned people in Italy and Switzerland are scrooged by the ghosts they were bidding for - not all for sure but not enough people said, that they decide against fast money from tourism. The price will be very high in the future: the "good" news is that climate change already killed and will kill tourism cases around the Alps.

A main problem of human beings in mass tourism is that everybody optimizes his own benefit only. From a distance and over centuries humanity is too dumb for responsible behavior. As we are all part of the failure this discussion seems somehow obsolete.

Marcus, I walk through a tourist neighborhood every day. One of the most interesting and beautiful at that. Still, no less than half the people on the sidewalk are looking at their phones. Its fine with me, doesn’t hurt me (except when they run into me) but it’s so bizarre. I dont get it. Stay home and do that, it’s cheaper.

I still want to go back to what is the definition and who gets to define it? Cause I think, that often, we will find a wide gulf between those living in the area and those visiting the area. The only point of view that I take is to accept that its not my land, it belongs to them, and if they have a consensus that dictatates changes I should support those changes and respect them. Otherwise the sights and the atmosphere and the culture that I am interested in rules my decision of where to go and consideration and politness and respect for the local laws and customs rules my behavior upon arrival. I am smart enough to recognize that I. not being a citizen of the location, know too little to comment on the rest.

Mr. E, I love what you had to say.

I have lived in two foreign counties (Germany and Saudi Arabia) for a total of 9 years. Also, visited 83 foreign countries and enjoyed them all.

Regarding this comment by MarkK:

A main problem of human beings in mass tourism is that everybody optimizes his own benefit only

I know that people generally act in ways that is in their own benefit, however, how people act around others is a mixed bag.

Example, traveling with a group of people on a tour, even a those day tours of a multi-day tour for several days, I find the vast majority of people are not so selfish that they inflict difficulties on others. It has been my experience that most seasoned travelers are not rude or impolite. Sure, I remember a couple of people that were ill and should have taken their sneezing all over our dinner table, or the individuals that were 15 minutes late arriving at the tour bus, delaying everyone, but that has been the exception not the rule.

It is true that civility is not what it was 40 years ago, but depending on the culture, it is still good. The one notable issue that I have seen is touring with people from China, that don't know how to queue up in line or not block others from taking photos for inordinate periods. I understand, having been to China just how crowded their cities.

As for people maximizing their travel opportunities, I understand that, I love to travel and understand that crowds can be larger than they were in the past. Still, I have found that if I make my travel arrangements doing in depth research and planning that minimizes frustration.

Sure, renting a car at Heathrow and getting on the London orbital, I can expect to find a parking lot. So, I find a way to avoid that as much as possible. If I want to see a popular venue, like the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam, I book as soon as possible.

Of course, experienced travelers should know that in many European cities like Barcelona, Paris and Rome that pickpockets abound and not to protect your wallet and passport is a huge problem. Yes, greed is a part of the human experience, but the vast majority people, travelers and residents are civil.

I think all the answers have been given. More people now have a higher standard of living all over the world than ever before. Europeans have increased their continental travel. The internet has opened up a world view of places that many people only read about or were jammed in those old and dusty encyclopedias. The end of the baby boomer population has more capital than perhaps the earlier baby boomer population. Countries and cities have spent millions on advertising about visiting their sites. Travel guide books and online influencers also play a part in more people focusing on specific locations.

You mentioned Christmas Markets. If the city didn't want visitors, why allow the markets to take place? We know why, but why blame tourists when the welcome mat is laid out and the open sign is hung.

I'm going to be the grinch here and say that you went in the most popular time of the year to Christmas Markets which have become impossibly crowded.

I went to Germany in March/April when it was cold and rainy. The weather wasn't great but the crowds were almost nil. Seeing people complain about going to Europe in summer and the crowds always make me want to say-go in the non festive months. You won't get the Instagram pictures of beautiful fields and color but it is less crowded and the locals can be more relaxed.

always make me want to say-go in the non festive months

but then you miss all of the good stuff!! For the Christmas Markets, heck, yes the can get crowded, but we are only talking 8 hours in what should be a 5 days stay, so unless you planned poorly and have no other idea of what to see or do in the city the crowds at the markets (much, much less in the day light by the way) should have very little impact on the trip. Feeling like you have walked into a tourst trip in towns like Vienna and Budapest and even Paris or London is generally the result of not thining it through enough in the planning stages. But I will admit, the support for the information to plan a good trip is generally somwhat lacking on line and in books. Our forum is pretty good a working you aroudn the mess and still helping you to have a memorable experience while seeing the best of locations.

"We have met the enemy and he is us". Pogo

I consulted Rough Guide Budapest as well as Let's Go since I knew nothing about the city's features.

Paris and Vienna are totally different. If one tires of the so-called tourist areas in both cities, it's easy to get avoid that, just have Metro tickets (Paris) or the transit pass (Vienna). Tons of places in Paris to escape the tedious crowds in the summer, eg. St. Cloud.

I expect crowds to be there, am used to confronting them since I've always been in Paris in the summer, minus once. After an absence of 5 years ie, the pandemic, etc., from Paris, it was lovely being back in Paris last summer for 15 consecutive nights, amidst the crowds, the heat wasn't too bad, the hustle and bustle, the noise (yes, one must put up with that too) of Paris.

For me, the challenge has become one of finding the edge seasons in the most popular places. Still have to deal with the crowds for Oktoberfests, the big city Christmas markets, Karnival, etc. Its all about deciding what is most important in a city or region and discovering the best time to go.

the "good" news is that climate change already killed and will kill
tourism cases around the Alps.

Climate change is not killing of tourism in the Alps. Tourism is only increasing. We are already noticing people coming to the mountains in summer because everywhere else is getting to hot.

For me, the challenge has become one of finding the edge seasons in
the most popular places. Still have to deal with the crowds for
Oktoberfests, the big city Christmas markets, Karnival, etc. Its all
about deciding what is most important in a city or region and
discovering the best time to go.

Where I live, Magyarország, its my perception that the tourism is flattening out across the year. That is the summer tourists are now using more of the shoulder season. Of course, just my pereception, havent found the statistics. I hoe so, as thats a good thing. Its how you handle more tourist without it getting more crowded

For the big draw events like markets and Oktoberfest, again, the crowds are what they are. In a lot of ways its part of the attraction to be part of the celebration. Good news is you only do that "event" for a few hours out of a day or two then you the rest of the time you can structure to avoid crowds. Its just a matter of knowing your location.

I presume there are some places where to see the Icons of the destination you are stuck in the crowds full time. Prague and Rome for instance. For those the best you can do is off-season or maybe somehting more structured like a tour that gets you arround efficiently and has contacts to skip the lines.