Did you ever feel that you were born on the wrong continent?

I sometimes think in the same way. However, salaries are a lot lower in Europe and their home lot sizes are smaller.

@ Bob

Never.

Well, I was born and grew up in Europe and my parents brought me here, so go figure. The grass always looks greener elsewhere - until it doesn't. Being happy or not happy isn't a function of where you're born or where you grew up or where you happen to reside for the time being, but more of what opportunities are available to you to make the most out of your life (and how you manage your own expectations). It's not about just making money or having lots of "stuff" - that's just gravy, but not the substance of what makes people really happy. Europeans generally have more guaranteed leisure time and don't have to worry about certain things that we are plagued with (I won't go there because they're obvious, at least to people my age). When you're traveling anywhere, chances are most people you come in contact with are happy/ happy-going (or at least appear so), same as here in the US (except maybe now when there is such short staffing and hot tempers and culture wars everywhere, it seems).

I always think that Americans seem more cheerful and positive than many Europeans.

I have had some great holidays in the USA and seen some great sights - the Grand Canyon doesn’t have anything comparable in Europe; New England’s autumn colour; the might of Yosemite; seeing bears in Yellowstone; driving State Route 1 in California in a convertible; the Smithsonian in Washington’s awesome collections; riding a cable car in San Francisco; Monument Valley; the unexpected find of Hancock Shaker village in Massachusetts and of course Disney World in Florida!

We always want what we don’t have.

I couldn’t have endured so little holiday time off work as Americans get which is why I didn’t seek to move there years ago when I worked for an American company.

Agnes, brava! My thoughts exactly. I've had the opportunity to live on both sides of the pond, and I have to say we were quite content in both.

But Europe is a big place, and I doubt that all European countries enjoy the same happiness index. Speaking of which, 9 of the top 10 countries on the world happiness index are European. But most of those are northern European. Most are just too cold for my old bones. By contrast, Canada and the US ranked down in 14th and 19th place, so not horrible by any means.

Sometimes.

Similarly, I think Americans and Canadians can feel this way about their own state or province. I wouldn’t necessarily pick the state/city where I grew up, but my ancestors chose it. Yet, I feel like I would’ve fit in better in New England or the upper Midwest than my home region. Again, grass is probably greener, and the reality might not live up to the expectation.

Lived in the US till I was 31 and have been in Germany for 35 years now. Have always felt more comfortable here, it just seems to match my personality better? It felt like I could finally breathe if that makes sense?
We have more time to spend in nature or museums, and the sense of history that is everywhere you go. Not sweating the small stuff that Americans seem to waste so much time on. The sense of real freedom that is here. Not worrying about crime, not afraid that all the people around me might be carrying a gun, not afraid of random wild shoot-outs, not worrying about going bankrupt from medical bills, not needing a car, and all the costs that go with it. Certainly healthier food here and no GMO products.
I know this may be touchy for some people, but this is just my own feelings and opinions. There are things I love about the US, but not sure I could live there again, even though it is on the table for discussion as retirement gets closer.

I love Europe, at least the countries I’ve been to (10) and I like to fantasize about living in a few of them. I would be willing to try it if I didn’t have family obligations. My cousins are U.S. citizens who have lived in Germany since they were very young children. They probably don’t even remember living here. They could move here any time, but they never even consider it. The reasons Ms. Jo gives for living there are likely why.

Not worrying about crime, not afraid that all the people around me might be carrying a gun, not afraid of random wild shoot-outs, not worrying about going bankrupt from medical bills, not needing a car, and all the costs that go with it

For those reasons alone we'ed move to Europe in a minute if we could.

Like Ms. Jo, we've lived overseas for many years (18+) - in multiple countries. We're also closing in on retirement decisions and foremost among those is - Where will we retire?

It's a tough decision, as we have family in the USA and close friends on each continent. For us, healthcare plays a huge part in our decision - as do the challenges everyone faces on a soon-to-be-fixed income. We feel our quality of life has improved dramatically since we moved to Europe. We're fortunate to work in career fields that enable us to travel frequently and live at an above European median income level. Travel is certainly a big part of our lifestyle here. In the past few weeks, I've been in Portugal, Spain, Italy, France (twice), and of course, The Netherlands. Tonight, I am in Brittany, exploring a new region! We enjoy the diversity that Europe has to offer and hope to continue to explore. Living here more easily provides us with that opportunity.

Yet, it's deeper than that. Ms. Jo outlined many of the factors that we, and other ex-pats, discuss. It's not a question of whether one continent is better than the other - just which fits your lifestyle and life choices better. For us, that's been Europe since perhaps 2007. I can assure you that ex-pats are patriotic and nationalistic (Many times we find ourselves defending and explaining the USA to our foreign friends!). We do feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to make a choice to live in Europe, and that our friends and families support our decision. On days like today, as we explore a "new" region, we know that we are quite blessed!

Well the original question is about "being born there" (that is, having spent your whole life there), which is a lot more complicated question than just moving there now that you've established wealth and experience. Lots of unpleasant times have happened in Europe over the last 70 years too. But given that, yes I would have preferred a life lived in many western European countries, among more civilized and cultured peoples. From what I've seen, more people there value happiness differently than in the US.

PS the country of Costa Rica (not the richest country, mind you) usually ranks highest in the happiness factor. La Pura Vida.

Not exactly an answer to the direct question by the OP, but I did go through that phase, ie, giving some serious thought on whether I wanted to be an-expat in Germany regarding acculturation and assimilation after I had finished college and grad school in 1973. By then I had done two trips mainly in Germany and Europe and was thinking of pursuing additional university study in Germany. For various reasons by the mid-1970s, I decided against it, decided on pursuing traveling there instead.

A close friend of mine, also a Calif boy, did exactly just that, becoming an-expat (finally) in Austria before his mid-30s in 2004 after having done both degrees in German (BA and MA) plus two years of being an exchange student in Germany while in high school as well as the junior abroad program In the German language in college, then grad school in German. What he did, simply put, I lacked the guts, confidence and the singular determination to achieve.

My English grandfather immigrated to the US between the World Wars and I was raised on his stories of growing up in England. The other side of the family also immigrated to the US from the UK, but in the 1700’s. It was not surprising that when we did the DNA analysis, I came out as 43% Scotland, 35% England, and 9% Wales as my top three matches.

Do I wish I was born there? No. Do I feel quite at home there? Yes. I love to visit places where my Grandfather or his family lived and worked. I’m proud of my grandfather’s service in the Royal Navy. I am also glad to come home to my life in the United States.

We taught our children as they were growing up and we had to move for employment that it wasn’t where you lived that determined whether you were happy but how you choose to live wherever you are located that makes the difference. I still believe that.

I have truly enjoyed my time spent in Europe, and sometimes wonder if
I would have been happier living there.

This is an interesting question, and I sometimes feel the same way about places I've visited. I try to remind myself that I need to take into account my "vacation feeling" at those times. It may be totally different to live and work in a place than to go there at my leisure, with no work pressure, not having to take care of anything, with lots of time to do only the things I enjoy.

Not worrying about crime, not afraid that all the people around me
might be carrying a gun, not afraid of random wild shoot-outs, not
worrying about going bankrupt from medical bills

The funny thing is that some of my best American friends wouldn't even understand why I consider these things to be desirable. They want their freedom of choosing to be insured or not, and they are firmly convinced that they need their own gun to protect their families in case one of those shoot-outs happens. Much as I love my friends, there are limits to my understanding of this mindset.

However, salaries are a lot lower in Europe and their home lot sizes
are smaller.

Seriously? I see that you live in the Bay Area... Most home lots I know in that area are a lot smaller than the home lots in our Northern German region.

As for salaries being low or high, you can't just compare the absolute numbers but have to put them in relation to what you get for your money. If housing and cost of living are a lot lower, plus full health insurance, pension funds, and unemployment benefits all included, I don't mind a lower salary. And where's that employer in the United States who will give me six weeks of paid vacation?

grass is probably greener, and the reality might not live up to the
expectation.

I can't recall a vacation in Canada, US or Europe where I haven't thought I'd like to spend more time there, but permanently, probably not. I'm a creature of habit and like my routines, my food and my sports teams. And language, I try, but I struggle with all but the basics which get me by as a tourist, but not as a permanent resident.

I do have visions of living for a month a places like London, Nice, New York, San Diego, but even now after 2 weeks away I'm always ready to go home.

Well, my story is somewhat the other way round. When my mother had just got pregnant with me (1962), my father - one of the not many semiconductor researchers in Italy at the time - was sent to Silicon Valley by his employer to get a crash course on all the new things; my mother followed him. There he met a fellow that asked if he would have liked a job with him, named Bob Noyce. Before it was too late for my mother to fly back, they had to decide if I had to be born in California or Italy. They decided to go back to Italy and my father renounced Bob Noyce's offer. I could have been an American citizen and may be the son of very rich people, I was born in Italy - not bad but obviously not as rich. When I am thinking about it, I do not regret their decision a single moment.

I learned a family of 4 lives in 750sf

And that's something you don't have in the US?

In conversations with Germans and the French in Europe the topic of gun ownership has come up, though rarely, as part of the "American way of life." They have asked me the same if my family (as a kid growing up) had guns in the house. Although I am interested in certain guns (historically), I told them I had absolutely no interest in owning any and having them in the house. The Mrs. felt likewise.

Whilst I don’t think I want to live in Europe on a permanent basis, I always wished I would have lived over-seas for a time in my youth. I also wished I would have learned a foreign language (my preference being French). Now, with my husband’s retirement approaching, we hope to spend some extended time in Europe. Greek island’s here we come!

@James: Never trust any statistics you haven't forged yourself. :-) Averages are a tricky and ambiguous thing, and one thing they completely ignore is the social gap. If, for instance, all families have an average of 1000 sf, that may mean that all families have 1000sf. It might also mean that half the families have 1500sf and the other half only have 500sf.

Let's not stray too far off topic here, but what I am getting at is that there are so many social factors and so many regional differences, from rural vs. urban to the social makeup of a society, that it's difficult to compare. I am quite sure for instance that most families in NYC have a lot less space than families in rural Northern Germany. That's comparing apples to oranges, of course.

And personally I think 2300 sf is silly for a family of four.

I couldn't agree more. :-) All those windows to clean, and that totally disproportionate amount of climate-unfriendly ground sealing...

Anyway, what we are getting at and what I assume we agree upon is that European countries generally do have less space, so we have learned to work with that. I have never been to Japan, but from what I have read and heard, they take that even a step further.

A nice example for the consequences of that: We have had American visitors come in search of their roots, and when they walked across the cemeteries, hoping to find the graves of their ancestors, they were shocked to find that we don't keep graves forever - no space for that - but reuse them after 30 years. :D

I wonder about the nature of work for the typical European. We have all heard about the additional vacation , generous health benefits and family leave time compared to the USA, but I am interested in the day to day differences in work climate, job satisfaction, etc. My son-in-law lived in Denmark for three years, and observed that Danish companies seem more interested in the sustainability of the organization rather than focusing on quarterly profit targets.

I wonder about the nature of work for the typical European. We have
all heard about the additional vacation compared to the US. but I am
interested in the day to day differences in work climate, job
satisfaction, etc.

James is totally right when he says that there is no such thing as a "typical European", but let me give it a shot. Of course I can speak only from my perspective; things may be very different in Greece or in Estonia.

First off, people tended to have a much more continuous career than in the US. You would learn a trade or a profession, and then you would work in that profession all your life until the day you retire. It was not uncommon for people just a generation back to spend their entire work lives with one company. This of course also has to do with the high requirements in terms of qualification for a certain profession. You can't just change your mind at age 50 unless you are willing to go through a long school and/or training process again. Therefore, changing your profession used to be extremely uncommon. Things are changing though.

Work climate obviously depends 90% on the set of people you are working with, so I'll just make one point here: We have a much higher degree of job security than in the US, and I do believe that that reflects on the work climate: There is less fear. One of my US friends was told that she would have to leave the next day... that would be unthinkable here unless you had robbed the cash register. Another one of my American friends told me that she could take a vacation any time with her employer. There was a minor hitch to that though: She wouldn't need to come back after that vacation. So, she had basically not had a vacation for years. My point being, I think we generally feel a bit safer in our jobs and not constantly threatened by firing. And we don't feel that we are quite as much at the mercy of our employers. Employers are required by law to grant that vacation; it's not like they are doing that to be particularly nice to their employees.

But in return they get a lot less pay too and many use that off time
doing other work to make up the difference.

Yes, certainly there are countries in Europe where people have to have a second job to make ends meet. I find that a difficult point to make though because there are so many US states where cost of living is so high that people have to have several jobs to make ends meet, just the same.

What a fun thread. Yes. I often feel like I was born on the wrong continent. I did a study abroad in Ireland in college and felt so at home. I love the cities and villages and the general compactness - not driving from one parking lot to another. But, there is likely a “grass is always greener” aspect and translating vacation to real life. We lived in Hawaii for a number of years and I would often see people want to move there, thinking it would be like vacation. Then, real life would settle in and they’d often head back to the mainland. It’s easy to romanticize places. That being said, put me down for born/move to Europe in a heartbeat

"...put me down for born/move to Europe in a heartbeat."

The closest I can claim to being in Europe minus actually living there was the first trip 50 years ago in the summer of 1971 when I was there solo for twelve consecutive weeks, my longest stay ever in Europe.

On the grass being greener on the other side and all that, I never got homesick, missed SF. or life here during this 12 week stay, seven weeks of which were spent in Germany. It depends on one's expectations, goals, etc. No doubt I still had a lot to learn about effective traveling. Traveling solo was no problem.

Did you ever feel that you were born on the wrong continent?

Short answer is 'no'. But I sometimes feel that I was born in the wrong century.

Absolutely not, I have lived in the Middle East for 5 years and Germany for 4 years, as well as traveling to 78 foreign countries. I love visiting Europe and other places, but would not want to exchange my citizenship for any other country.

Where I not a USA citizen, I would be inclined to want to be from countries like the USA: Canada, Australia, NZ, Great Britain and Ireland. Scandinavia would be great, but not with the long winters.

I find Americans to be very happy and upbeat people. Europe contains many countries and my favorites are Italy and UK.

Having lived in Germany for 4 years while employed by the US Army, I like much of that country, especially the low crime rate, beer and driving on the Autobahns. However, most people in Germany, compared to the USA live in much smaller dwelling or apartments, spend considerable more of their income on food, lodging and especially taxes.

Southern Europe has warmer weather, but doesn't run as efficiently as Germany, the UK or Scandinavia. I do love the ancient history and art, especially in Italy.

We found Russia to be a great place to travel, but Russians are not as cheerful or open as I like. They consider that Americans smile too much and are too friendly. However, if you make a friend of a Russian, they are fantastic friends.

@James, yes, I have, and trust me, I've given a lot of thought to the question if I was living on the right continent! :-)

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to get into any disagreement with you. I just try to see that there is more to many things than meets the eye, on both continents of course. I don't believe that people are really happier on one side of the ocean or the other; it all depends, and there is more variation within than general differences between the continents.

Let me add another observation. I loved living in America, and I love visiting, and one of the main reasons are the people. I feel that they are, on the average, just friendlier and more open than in Europe. This goes well with the observation many of you have made that Europeans sometimes are grumpier, or more direct than Americans would be. It also goes well with our German cliché of the American who is constantly smiling this fake smile, not understanding that this is not fake but simply a cultural difference. And no matter if fake or real, it does make life a lot more pleasant for everyone. There are a lot of things I would not want to trade, like our health system, or our six weeks of vacation, but I would gladly trade the degree of friendliness.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to get into any disagreement with
you.

Never crossed my mind. It was a nice discussion.

“We have more time to spend in nature or museums, and the sense of history that is everywhere you go. Not sweating the small stuff that Americans seem to waste so much time on. The sense of real freedom that is here. Not worrying about crime, not afraid that all the people around me might be carrying a gun, not afraid of random wild shoot-outs, not worrying about going bankrupt from medical bills, not needing a car, and all the costs that go with it. Certainly healthier food here and no GMO products.
I know this may be touchy for some people, but this is just my own feelings and opinions.” Opinion of Ms. Jo.

Ms. Jo,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I always feel more at home in Europe than I do here in America. I live in a 2,400 sq. foot home, way too big. I constantly lose things because there are more places to store things and then I forget where I put them. One time I returned from a trip and couldn’t find my checkbook because I put it in a “safe” place. So safe it took a couple weeks to find it. Such a waste of space, time and money it takes to maintain it and my possessions.

Here we are more aspirational about gaining material wealth and do not value the enjoyment of life as much. Everything fun is crammed into the weekend. I’ve started to ramble but a big regret in my life is I didn’t try to move to Europe when I was young. My opinion is very personal and I don’t think it’s a matter of the grass is greener syndrome. I feel more in sync with European attitudes.

"I feel more in sync with European attitudes." Very true.

The various pros and cons exist whether one calls them national traits, acculturation, socialisation , culture shock, "red tape." (Beamtentum) , cultural cues, etc. The decisive factor, bottom line is whether these differences , perceived or real, bother you, whether you can cope with them or not.

Going solo on my first trip for 12 weeks in 1971 , I had safety concerns on random violence, getting jacked in the streets American style, since I was a city boy and was thinking American. Those concerns proved groundless when I realised the odds were next to nothing .

The Annual World Happiness Report is sponsored by the UN, and focuses on the following areas:

GDP per capita
Social support,
Healthy life expectancy,
Freedom to make your own life choices,
Generosity of the general population
Extent of corruption in society

The top 10 on the 2021 list are
Finland
Denmark
Switzerland
Iceland
Netherlands
Norway
Sweden
Luxembourg
New Zealand
Austria

The US is number 19.

Good to see Austria is on that list of the top ten. My close friend whom I described above certainly made the admirable and right decision to move from California to Austria and live as an ex-pat.

No, I was born in the right place: New England. I love traveling, and have wondered what it would be like for a longer vacation to stay in certain cities, countries, etc., but never permanently. And I feel very attached to Sweden and the UK, but I am a New Englander through and through. Actually, I believe we were all born in the "right place", but for many different reasons.

You don't have to have only 2 weeks vacation in the USA (granted exit and return in many jobs are a lot of work). Certainly, lower income levels might have to limit freedoms to survive. There are people who need the social safety net and it should be better here, but I suspect the majority of the people writing here aren't in that income level. One can make choices on living smaller, preserving climate, riding one's bike on errands, etc. I think it its a very sad statement to be dissatisfied with one's life in the USA, as one has the freedom to adjust it to what one wants. The grass doesn't have to be greener elsewhere; change your life.

But what annoys me the most is stereotyping Americans...this is a huge country with many different perspectives on life and conditions. Not everyone carries guns, crime is not rampant everywhere, etc. I can't relate to what some of the complaints are above, but then I am a New Englander. If I lived in another part of the country, I might have a totally different perspective.

So, No, I belong here.

I was born a Northern Californian, which I've always considered a huge stroke of luck. Life here has suited me enormously - never felt I "belonged" anywhere else - until maybe 2 decades ago, when I began to notice a pernicious decline in the dominant set of shared values and shared understandings that had previously defined our communities and our institutions. This recent swing of the pendulum has resulted in far too much disorder, discord, corruption, confusion, and failure. This isn't just old age. It's palpable and measurable. We once outranked most other states on all sorts of measures, but today California is near the bottom in nearly every category. Some of those lists might be bunk, but as a group they can't be dismissed. We've lost our identity and our ability to reach consensus on anything. We can't keep the lights on. We are the laughing stock of the country, and we are an utter mess.

I've always enjoyed travel in Europe. But generally speaking, living there (which I once did for a year) more permanently - in the Europe that I'm familiar with, that is - has never been a consideration. Compared with the California that I lived in for my first 45-50 years, nothing has looked really good for the long term. But in today's California... and at a time of life when moving anywhere is inherently more difficult... there actually are a couple of European places I've been eyeballing, in addition to a few stateside locations.

We once outranked most other states on all sorts of measures, but
today California is near the bottom in nearly every category.

That is not remotely true even in spite of some serious, seemingly intractable challenges (environmental, water and electric grid, homelessness, cost of housing, etc). California is and always has been a trailblazer, has a huge budget surplus ($75 billion or so) and the largest economy in the US (and ranked 5th globally), and has tackled covid better than most states...and it's easily one of the most stunning places in the whole US. Jerry Brown, in particular, was a great leader for California and set it on a good financial path.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-14/california-defies-doom-with-no-1-u-s-economy
"The Golden State has no peers when it comes to expanding GDP, raising household income, investing in innovation and a host of other key metrics."

Decline in the dominant set of shared values... we've lost our identity and our ability to reach consensus on anything. We can't keep the lights on. We are the laughing stock of the country, and we are an utter mess.

Well, having been born and raised in Spain, and have lived in the USA for a few years now, I can say that assessment is the complete opposite of what I've experienced. For me, California is one of the most European feeling states in the US! I would not want to live in any other state honestly.

Especially southern California reminds me of my homeland, good food, great beaches, perfect weather (most of the time), cosmopolitan and diverse, and many here even speak Spanish lol! But perhaps those are the cultural changes you are so afraid about?

California is and always has been a trailblazer, has a huge budget surplus ($75 billion or so) and the largest economy in the US (and ranked 5th globally)

Speaking of GDPs, I always found this map interesting (https://www.businessinsider.com/state-vs-country-gdp-map-2019-3) It compares state economies to countries with similar economic size. I think Americans will find is quite enlightening:

California = France

Florida = Malaysia

Maine = Libya

Texas = Iran

South Carolina = Uzbekistan

Washington = Switzerland

Virginia = Sweden

The above comments reinforce cultural identity. We are most comfortable and appreciate most the culture we were raised in; but that doesn't mean people dont flee for economic reasons (and yes, its a gross generality).

I have had a home in Budapest for about 20 years now.

In the earliest days I knew Budapest is where I would retire; each year I enjoy it more and more ... but each year I question if I will be happy in a different culture, full time, more and more.

It took all of the 20 years to come to this realization as the romance turned into reality.

I have a few more years to decide; 50/50 right now.

"I have truly enjoyed my time spent in Europe, and sometimes wonder if I would have been happier living there. I have no desire to move there now because my family is close by, including two grandchildren. This is just an exercise in imagining an alternative reality, and to explore why I enjoy European travel so much. There is no intent here to bash the USA; it just seems that people are happier in some European countries."

When we travel, we gravitate to the best an area has to offer. Rarely do we get to see areas out side of the tourist bubble. When we have traveled out of the "bubble" so to speak, I find that people are just as unhappy as any unhappy American. And talking to locals, they'll say we are so lucky to have been born Americans, usually with two false assumptions. First, is that all Americans are very wealthy, and second, that the USA is still this mythical land of unlimited opportunity: Cause that is what they see and have seen on all the TV shows and Movies exported from the US.

First time in Venice, I wanted to be a Venetian.

First time in Florence, I wanted to be a Florentine.
First time in France, I wanted to be a Parisian.
First time in London, I wanted to be English.

There is a pattern here. Then on the second visit to these respective places, we looked at what it would take to move there..... We couldn't afford any land or house as nice as what we already have in the US. And unless you are very wealthy, the only realistic way to immigrate, is to marry into a local family that is already established. We are happily married, and neither of us has dual citizenship to any place in Europe, even though, we pass the skills test, all the other fees and additions would spend us down to "Lower Middle Class." Best we could do, would be a much smaller abode. And that would be just the start, as we would then have to fight the professional nepotism for jobs that is the standard in Europe.

"Under the Tuscan Sun," by Frances Mayes, with a net worth of over 150 million, created a bit of a fantasy. Many people read this book, as if it isn't a work of fiction, or at least an extra-ordinary embellishment. And she only lives there 6 months out of the year.

Though in some ways, I am less happy living in the US, seeing what my fellow citizens do and think, and the divisions that have occurred, we personally, have adopted many of the things that make Europeans happy: Smaller cars, a wider social network, less keeping up with the Jones' in competition, and buying fresh food prepared at home and the all important social dinner. We've brought European attitudes back to our home and embraced higher taxes to pay for more social services, such as mass transportation and universal health care. The urge to "Escape this place for something better," turned into, "Lets make this place more like Europe."

In terms of public education at the secondary level, Russ is correct in his assessment...very accurate, certainly in Northern CA. In the 1960s CA was always ranked with New York, the top 2 in the USA, ie, no. 2 to NY.

Now NY is still no. 1 whereas CA is in the bottom 3-4, certainly re: class size, per pupil spending, and I won't mention the utter stupid outcome in foreign language instruction or the lack of it in high schools.

"...all Americans are wealthy." I have rum into Germans, ( a couple) who seemed to believe that or said that to me maybe to see if I would react, that the Americans are "stinkreich." Here we say ,"filthy rich" Well, I told them that tremendous wealth gaps exist, Santa Clara county in CA is one example of this glaring example.

@Agnes: Your exuberance for my state is appreciated. I really do wish I shared it. I'm sure it depends a lot on what metrics you happen to care about. Sadly enough, many of my acquaintances and relatives have witnessed the same nosedive I've been seeing.

California has been "stunning" for most of my life. But it managed that on its own. Today it's stunning in quite a different way. A look around makes you wonder what happened. Our budget surplus means our state doesn't have to borrow money - but it can also mean citizens are handing over way too much of their incomes. (And since the California EDD lost billions of taxpayer dollars to fraudulent unemployment claims this past year, I gotta wonder how much we overpaid to attain that surplus.)

GDP, global GDP ranking, trailblazing, innovation, budget surpluses... all that stuff that matters to Bloomberg and others may or may not actually cut any ice at all with the average Californian... Here are some on-the-ground data from 2019...

Affordability of the basics... everyday costs including housing compared with $ resources: #49
Violent crime... #38
SAT scores... #39
4th grade reading proficiency: only 11 states did worse.
4th grade math proficiency: only 6 states did worse.

So yes... Europe... South America... and certain other US states as well have been on my mind a lot lately. On the minds of other Californians as well...

"More than half of California’s registered voters have given “serious” or “some” recent consideration to moving out of the state, according to a new poll from UC Berkeley’s Institute of Governmental Studies."

https://news.berkeley.edu/story_jump/new-poll-half-of-california-voters-have-considered-moving-out-of-state/

I will acknowledge that I was born in the wrong Eastern USA State, just north of Baltimore Maryland. And it wasn't till moving to the West Coast, in my late teens, where I have the only local Sir Name, that I found my "Home," filled with more reasonable, less inbred persons. My name here - Its something I can own.. Everyone was a relative of some sort back in Maryland. And I didn't have to carry on deeply rooted, multi-generational vendettas or the baggage. Re-invention can happen on the same continent if you get far enough away. I am glad I was born on this continent. Even with its problems. Though, I would have enjoyed being born a Canadian rather than a US citizen. They have all I want to make happen here, in place, and get to travel to places I can't without their passport . :)

@ James. Pleasing to see you have made up with Anna. Congratulations. A bit late, but I have been sailing. Saturday morning confusion for me.

So now it has been condensed to the old “mine is bigger than yours”. (Some think it is what you do with it that is important.) No argument here. You win. When surfing along the Great Australian Bight (bite?), dodging great whites and the occasional remains of icebergs, things really shrunk. My wife says that even the magnifying glass had trouble making things visible.

Just to remind you, the great south land and our neighbours, the shaky isles, have rather large houses and have the best Universal Government Health care on the planet. To quote figures would just expose to you what a dilettante I am. I suspect most readers already know.

The question put: Did you (me) ever feel you were born on the wrong continent?

Perth, Western Australia. It has the Mediterranean climate Los Angels thinks it has. Without the motor vehicle pollution. Copious fresh fruit, vegetables, meat and seafood. Lots of sporting activities in the pristine air. Bay Watch without silicone adjustments. 1972 change of government took the country out of that pointless war in Vietnam. No longer propping up a corrupt regime. Saved me serving jail time. 1974 through 1988 free university degrees. My mates, sheila’s and I for the most part completed two. Today’s undergrads do not let us forget how privileged we were. Prospered from the continuing mining boom that started in the mid 60’s. Boomed while the rest of the world went into recession through the global financial crisis. An unexpected boost to family wealth. With the latest pandemic, Western Australia, shut out the world, and the virus, while extracting from China and other Asian countries record prices for iron ore, gold and other minerals. Booming again. Another unexpected boost to family wealth. All the while my indigenous brothers and sisters have not fared so well. I need to contribute to rectifying this.

Happy to pay whatever taxes so my fellow countrymen/women can have, amongst other things, the best health care available.

Work disrupts the pleasures of life.

An insightful question from Bob. I read, not comparing continents/countries/states, but rather a personal intrinsic examination.
I have been lucky to be born when and where I was.

My Answer is: Never.

Regards Ron

The above comments reinforce cultural identity.

You may find that there are some good ideas outside the USA's borders that Americans might want to consider ;-)

For example, I was so happy to see Aldi stores start to pop up all around southern California in recent years. Give those low cost American chains a run for their money! Now in order to compete, many local stores encourage people bring their own reusable grocery bags to the shop, rather than wasting plastic on free bags. Bringing our own shopping bags has been typical in Europe for a number of years now, glad to see it now in the USA.

On the flip side, I absolutely adore the National Parks system in the USA, and I'm so happy in Spain we have adopted this model, many Spanish love to take vacations to our own National Parks, just like in the USA! :)

But what annoys me the most is stereotyping Americans...this is a huge
country with many different perspectives on life and conditions. Not
everyone carries guns, crime is not rampant everywhere

@Wray: I am sorry that apparently you have read a couple of contributions here as stereotyping Americans, or probably Europeans as well. I think the OP made it quite clear that this thread is not about bashing the USA or Americans.

When you do a comparison like this, it is inevitable that there is going to be some generalization. But I think we have kept emphasizing that generalizations must be taken with a big grain of salt.

When you do a comparison of two different continents (which is problematic because each one of them is so huge and diverse), I do think it's legitimate to compare statistics and legal differences. Not everyone in the US carries a gun, certainly not, but there is a lot more freedom for people to carry a gun in the US than there is in most countries of Europe. I don't feel that that is an unfair statement to make. And for the "rampant" crime, well, I keep being surprised by Americans who are totally worried about safety issues in European cities, even though their own home town has twice the crime rate of any European city.

@Francis: I totally agree with what you say about the "tourist bubble", see my own posting about the vacation mood one is in up above.

I have rum into Germans, ( a couple) who seemed to believe that or
said that to me maybe to see if I would react, that the Americans are
"stinkreich."

@Fred: You'll have to make allowances there. This is one of the generalizations left over from decades ago, possibly even pre-WW II, when everybody in Germany sort of was equally poor... except for those who had an uncle in America. It's a cliché I actually haven't heard in quite a while, so really I expect this to die out sooner or later, especially with people traveling and making their own experiences.

Our budget surplus means our state doesn't have to borrow money - but
it can also mean citizens are handing over way too much of their
incomes.

@Russ: Well, come over to Europe! You'll love our tax systems. ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist that one. :-) )

"But I sometimes feel that I was born in the wrong century." Would that be a one time without antibiotics? Just say'en. :) Happy to have lived in the time they worked. :)

The German using that word, "stinkreich " was in a relatively recent conversation within the last 5-6 years in Potsdam. Cliche or not this woman using that word was elderly, ie from the war generation, if that is to make a difference.

Admittedly, I have only discussed the so-called American "way of life" with French who were living at the moment in Northern CA, having been sent here by a company or the university and so on.

Some were considering moving here in pursuit of the American dream,. as they perceived it, and were not accurately informed about the health system here or lack of , the number of vacation days relative to what was their experience in France, the tremendous cost of higher education, public universities vs private ones, say, U Mass or U Va vs Amherst or Dartmouth, state payment for raising children, the "Allocation" etc., let alone the violence

The bottom line is basically what one is willing to put up with, how deep is one's capacity to cope or tolerate in weighing the pluses and minus, as one sees them, (they are relative), the opportunity costs, assets and liabilities, pros and cons, whatever you call them in a society, given the public education system, the costs, public transportation, a collective vs individual society, the tax system, and all that.

Yes, and getting good information if you consider actually taking such a step. Our forefathers and foremothers (or uncles and aunts) did not have these possibilities when they got on the boat to cross the atlantic, but we do.

I know of a young man from one of the Balkan States (can't remember which), well qualified as some kind of engineer, who was applying for a position in Munich. When it came to salary negotiations, he was asked his expectations, and he named a sum of €1000 per month. In his home country, apparently, this would have been enough to lead a very comfortable life. In Munich, you can't even rent a pantry with that.

So, again, it all comes down to getting all your information, and not comparing apples with oranges.

This is an extremely interesting discussion, because 1) the concept is one I (and many of us) have considered; 2) because it is such a complex psychological issue; and 3) because I see two discussions going on here. I think Bob’s original question referenced the psychological/cultural facet of being “at home” in another place. And I see the financial aspect being discussed, dealing more with the practical “can I” question.

I am sure my conclusions for myself are completely formed by having lived an expat life in Japan for eight years in my 20’s & 30’s - integrated into a Japanese community, non-military, with friends, support system, enough language to converse, adequate salary, and nice home. But still always an outsider. I have also watched a few other American friends who have lived that lifestyle for most of their lives - raising their children there. And still never having that full sense of “belonging” that comes with the shared cultural experience we have even as extremely varied U.S. citizens. It was a good life, but I never truly belonged.

Many of the cultural norms I learned in Japan still call to me. But is that enough for me to feel “at home” there? In my case, no. Somewhere else? Maybe. You can look at this forum’s participants and see people who return over and over to the same country - places that didn’t call me to even make a short return trip. But I think that speaks to the fact that many of us probably feel a deep affinity to a particular culture and people of that culture. And HAD we been born there, would have lived there happily.

The completely different question is can that actually be achieved coming to it later in life. Probably not for me, no matter where. I may also even be too late to find the place I would want to call “second home” but I am still looking for that. Having lived an expat type life once, I am under no illusions about the trade-offs that come. And I think the best I could do is to straddle the fence. And straddling in itself can be hard. I think we all need our “place” or our “community”, be it large or small, family or friends. And that is difficult enough to maintain even with just a lot of travel.

As far as financials - so many of the things mentioned wouldn’t even factor into any decision I would make. I am lucky in that I could make “new home” happen if I wanted to. Also comparisons are hard to make between countries. I used to laugh at people who talked about the high cost of living in Japan by using the example of how much a cantaloupe cost (wasn’t grown there and yes, it cost a lot of yen). The answer is you just don’t buy the cantaloupe - then it’s fine and you are like all your Japanese neighbors. Same with small space and many other physical aspects of living somewhere else. If you need the cantaloupe, don’t move.

Beautifully said, TravelMom.

Thank you, Kim. :)

When we return from a trip to Europe, most people are not that interested in hearing too much about it unless they are ; 1. Avid travelers or 2. Very interested in traveling to Europe themselves in the future. The most interesting conversations we have are about experiences with residents we meet, and discussions about different ways of doing things. For example, in Madrid we met a woman from Finland who was on her sabbatical. Apparently, many people in Finland are able to take a lengthy break on a periodic basis, during which you are not allowed to work for pay. When we tell people at home about this sabbatical system, they usually say: Sounds cool - that would never happen here.

My point is that I find travel more enriching when I can learn about differences in cultural practices.

@ Travelmom....on those people who return over and over to the same country, (or even cities): That's me. I am one of those going back over and over as that pertains to France and Germany, went back to Berlin 24 out of 25 trips in Germany and likewise with Paris over and over.

Your points are well taken, all the more so when you raise salient issues pertaining to "belonging." which makes one think.

How true that this factor is a very individual one, even though one is acculturated, socialised or even assimilated (that's also a relative term) , one may view "belonging" as more paramount. I assume you spoke the language well.

I know European immigrants, ie, aliens, which is what they were viewed as legally when arriving here in CA, in this case French, having lived here several years, or decades, also don't have that "belonging" feeling. What about the "acceptance" factor?

The question is does that matter to these individuals? A personal assessment.

My take on this: "Belonging" and acceptance are relative, not of paramount importance to me. I know when I go back repeatedly to Paris and France I don't belong in the vaguest sense since what I hold to be of utmost importance is that facility I am deficient and inferior in France, ie , mastery of the country's language. I have to rely absolutely on the interlocutor's level of English.

No such thing in Germany, linguistic reliance on English totally unnecessary, having been at a pharmacy, doctor's office, and at a police station making a report. Germany is another story. The salient issue is, do I belong? No, since I never lived there. but I feel quite comfortable, at home, culturally, on cultural cues, linguistically, psychologically, etc there.

Am I an outsider in Germany and France? Most definitely, the locals can immediately spot me as such, maybe glaring so, but my view is , so what, as if that were to make a difference, especially in Germany and Austria.

When we return from a trip to Europe, most people are not that
interested in hearing too much about it

That is an experience many expats make too, and they can be quite shocked by the degree of interest, or lack thereof.

And to a certain degree, I can understand it. For those of you who remember slide shows... remember those times when you fell asleep over the hundredth picture of Aunt Gladys at the beach? ;-)

Am I an outsider in Germany and France? Most definitely, the locals
can immediately spot me as such

Sure. Let's start with your shoes. Or, for the ladies, with the hairdo. :D

I know European immigrants, ie, aliens, which is what they were viewed
as legally when arriving here in CA, in this case French, having lived
here several years, or decades, also don't have that "belonging"
feeling.

One of the main factors for the "belonging" feeling is having friends who make you feel welcome and "belonging".

But there are also legal factors that make you feel not belonging. For instance when the rights and the duties of a certain legal status don't match up and instead are always to your disadvantage. Like being considered a resident when it comes to paying taxes, but being considered a non-resident for the tuition fee when you want to take a class at the community college.

On this issue of "belonging: I really need to ask my friend (described above) , a fellow Calif boy, living and working as an ex-pat in Austria since 2004. Visiting him and his family all these years, I never broached this topic with him or his Austrian wife. American ex-pats have invited him to join American ex-pat groups, which he has always declined, basically no interest.

"Belonging" is such an individual and relative feeling. Is it important or desirable, that the individual has to answer, if s/he bothers to do so. One makes a conscious decision to want to belong or not, whether that is successful to one's satisfaction is another story.

I know French ex-pats here who definitely do not have that belonging feeling, even though they took out US citizenship , if that is supposed make a psychological difference., ie do they feel American emotionally?

As a boy, I lived in Frankfurt aM for 5 years from age 5-10. So, when I land in Germany, I feel a profound sense of "being at home". Of course, my German is not at the level of native speaker. It's probably A2 at best, and so I'm not a German. I'm a USA citizen who is very happy to be in Europe when I can get there.

Fred, you are absolutely right that a feeling of belonging is very individual and complex. The feeling can come from places, surroundings, customs, or people - or just yourself. I don’t think there is a definition that can answer every person. So I was only speaking for myself. :)

@ Travelmom....You said that you never felt you belonged in Japan. I assume you have an emotional attachment to the country.

You're right in that "belonging " per se is indeed a complex issue. I have an emotional attachment to France and Germany, which is one reason I always go back to Berlin and Paris as well as pursuing extensive and singular visits in those two countries.

Is emotional attachment part of belonging or totally divorced from it? Although I don't belong, I feel quite at ease and comfortable in both countries. In Germany I have linguistic security because of my study and knowledge of the language, in France no such thing. The locals can recognise right way that in spite of your linguistic fluency you still didn't grow up there.

I rate language knowledge very high when traveling in Europe but then it all depends on how much you want to understand and get out of your efforts in exploring and so on, such as being able to read the newspaper headlines, printed announcements, advertisements, and other examples of daily life. Culture shock, assimilation and acculturation , are other factors that matter or not, depending on one's priorities.

One makes a conscious decision to want to belong or not

That is certainly an excellent point to make. I have experienced that in the extreme when moving to a rural region within Germany, so to speak as an "expat" within my own country. When we moved there, the neighbors asked if we wished to be part of the neighborhood. We had no idea what that meant; I had hitherto believed that "neighborhood" is just the bunch of houses you happen to live near to. But no, they had a very specific definition of "neighborhood" which included a welcoming decoration for the house, and mutual participation at birthdays, weddings, funerals etc.

We later learned that some people who moved to that place for retirement said "no" to this invitation and just wanted to live by themselves, in splendid isolation as a couple. Boy were those people lonely once one of the partners died. Usually, the surviving partner would sell the house pretty quickly after that and move away.

Having said that, making that conscious decision to want to belong is of course only one side of the matter. Those neighbors were the other side. They gave us a great sense of belonging.

Love to travel, wish we could go more often, but the US is my home, my people. Always glad to travel, always happy to be home.