Dear Rick...A Plea for More

Please don’t encourage any more coverage as it always leads to places getting spoiled. Keep the CT, Rothenburg and all of Switzerland. It helps me know where not to go.

well I have always walked my own path when it comes to traveling ,never bought a Rick Steves book but at least he has introduced a more independent way of traveling to many people mainly Americans so it is not a bad thing. I can't agree with him listing all these wonderful places in his books as then they will just get ruined by recommendation and the hoards that follow his books will just head of to any place he recommends.
There will always be the independent traveler that gets out there on their own and finds their own places but there are other that need their hand held and their noses wiped for them and Rick and his guide books do that very well, but please lets keep them to the recommended tourist paths and leave the rest of the world those that really do like to explore.

Rick had stated his main business is operating tours. His TV shows and guidebooks are geared to try to convince people to take his tours. Because of his popularity, non-tour people are buying his guidebooks. But it doesn't pay for his business model to include areas in which his tours don't go.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this as it is a brilliant marketing concept.

Breaking that mold is the new Iceland tour book. No tours there......yet.

Firstly, you seem to be assuming the number of we tourists is fixed and you could "spread" us around to ease crowding. But the number is growing, and there is no reason to assume it will stop growing, as more people have the time & money to travel and people, at least in Europe, increasingly take multiple holidays each year making use of the low cost airlines. More people going to Bulgaria won't mean fewer going to Paris.

Which leads onto, secondly, you also seem to be assuming most tourists are American. You are a significant portion. But, practically everywhere in Europe the overwhelming majority of tourists are actually coming from the same country or another European country. Expanding the RS book range isn't going to make much difference to us "euro-crowds".

I agree with you about Lonely Planet and the diabolical writing style (although curiously it's the American slang I find more jarring!). But LP are not the only alternative. Bradt Guides are the gold standard for tourist guidebooks (as are RS' I am sure, although I've never actually seen one of his books so cannot really comment). Sadly, Bradt don't have a comprehensive list for continental Europe, it's true, but they do happen to have a Bulgaria book and another for Transylvania. Unlike LP, they are written by and for grown-ups.

@Nick, I wasn’t making any assumptions about the nationality or number of tourists only addressing Rick and his Italy book and the lack of a comprehensive Eastern Europe (Bulgaria etc)

But what I say is true: For every American removed from the Cinque Terre there is a place for someone from Asia or S. America or wherever to take it’s place.

I do have to disagree about Bradt Guides. While they are to be commended for covering areas no one else really does very well I find the ones I have bought boring, badly written, humorless and often wrong. I bought the one for Bulgaria and it is a true chore to read. Part of it is layout and a good share is the author. But at least the word “Gobsmacked” is absent. :) But at least we can agree on LP.

@Frank II: Rick sells more than 1 million guidebooks a year, year in year out. That is a significant income stream that should not be taken lightly. Yes you are right his main business in Tours and that makes sense. But the books are written primarily for those that Are NOT taking his tours. While they certainly drive many that way. Their purpose as I see it is to capture money from the folks who are not taking the tours. So it matters not where he writes about. Also in the past he has branched out and added in Turkey and slowly some of Eastern Europe as travel habits changed. My contention in my “letter” is he is falling behind the travel curve. I think your noting Iceland is important. I do think he’s looking for more places but he’s also got his finger on the numbers.

In General: I find it disturbing that people will say: Oh don’t write about it or tell people then it will be all ruined. What is really ruined is the sense of entitlement and specialness of those that say that because they mistakenly beleive they are “In The Know” or that they are somehow the only “real” or Valid traveler...Nonsense. It will happen whether it is RS or LP or any other media source be it facebook or YouTube. It is a global world with global information.

Even if all of Ricks 28,000 Pax (passengers) on his tours this year plus all 1 million who bought all the guidebooks all suddenly decided to travel to Bulgaria next year between the months of May to September it would hardly make a dent in the 11,596,167 Tourists arrivals. (2017). Over 6 million of which came from the EU (the largest group) But it would certainly put the US up there with Germany, Greece, Romania and Turkey in the more than 1 million visitor club.

And that approximate 11% rise would certainly help the economy, hotel bookings and employment and may have the effect of helping to push up wages. ....But oh no dont tell anyone....Sorry I just cant buy that line of reasoning with all due respect.

But I do enjoy reading all of the viewpoints and insights and experiences different from my own.

IMHO, I think the decision of which countries to publish dedicated guides for + update new versions every year is based on simple economics: which countries generate enough interest with travelers to make a guide profitable?

A good measure of interest level would be a scan of forum activity. The forum for Bulgaria? Minus your own 4 reviews (so not inquiries) there have only been a dozen questions posted since the beginning of this year. That's fewer than forums for some other countries see in a single DAY. There was double that amount just yesterday on the Italy forum, and over a dozen on the France forum.

In my mind, that's a pretty good illustration of why there isn't a Bulgaria guide.

Nick, I appreciate your mentioning the Bradt guides-your post is the first time I've heard of them. It's good to know there's an alternative to LP. However, looking at them on Amazon made me appreciate the fact that RS includes lots of destinations in his Eastern Europe book. To duplicate that with Bradt would cost a small fortune, since one country costs almost as much as the entire RS Eastern Europe book. I do realize that the Bradt likely includes lots of places that RS leaves out.

aarthurperry;

Good post on two counts.

First, nice to see a change of tone and topic. It's well thought out and sort of refreshing around here. Will RS be made aware of it? Possibly.

Second, the subject. Although I would go a little broader. All in all I have spent about 20 days in Bulgaria on two seperate trips and you are right, it is a hidden gem, if you aren't married to visiting cities. The first trip sounded a lot like your posts about your trip. We hit all the expected locations and fell in love with the country and the people. I am one of those rare people who even enjoyed Sofia. Our last fishing trip took us from one end of Bulgaria to the other; and on to Istanbul stopping at ever creek, stream and river to see what would bite. We did pretty fair, but mostly we got off the beaten track and saw things not usually seen by tourists.

But I can say equally good things about Romania, Ukraine, Serbia and Montenegro. I want to believe with the mad house that is now Western European tourism, that things will shift to the East. Budapest provides some evidence of that. Just 15 years ago we were the rare English speaking tourist. Now its one of the top destinations for European travel. Unfortunately nothing equals Budapest further East, so the type of tourist who goes further east will be different; maybe one who travels for the culture more than the architecture.

Odd that Slovakia and Montenegro are on the forum because I dont think he has any tours to them. By the way Slovakia is another untapped beautiful country. And I dont mean Bratislava.

Thank you again!

"It helps me know where not to go." How true! Totally agree, but I don't use RS books anyway on travel planning.

Most of the tourists in places like Sunny Beach and the coast of Montenegro and Albania are Russian so, even with tourism, you somehow feel removed from it. Fortunately, with the issues of the Russian economy, that aspect of tourism has dropped off a bit. As far as a Black Sea beach goes, naaaaa, sort of gross. But the beaches of Montenegro and Albania are as good as any place in the world.

If you read any of my posts you will know that I love Eastern Europe. I love the people, the culture, the architecture, the food (well not so much in Bulgaria). You know you have gotten a new education when you can spot the three types of Soviet architecture and at least have a little understanding of the changes in power and politics that led to the three. Fascinating all by its self. Still having said all of that I also love Paris and to a lesser degree Rome. So i don't fit K's mold i guess.

While I understand what you're saying, I don't think it would make much sense for Rick to change his business model. His books are designed for those who do need some hand holding and they're aimed primarily at non frequent travelers. He focuses on places that he likes and just like Lonely Planet has a hipster bias, Rick has a cute and quaint bias.

A lot of people read Rick's guides because they like the more casual style as opposed to something like Fodor's that reads like a textbook with endless lists of Hilton Hotels. I imagine a decent amount of readers are those that may have gone to Europe as a student or in early adulthood and want to try to recapture some of that spirit.

Perhaps there is a business model for a different focus on European travel and guidebooks. As I've mentioned, I'd much rather have a guidebook that gives me information on what parts of a city is known for their Chinese restaurants or local coffeehouses rather than an extensive list which is a year out of date once it goes to press.

I've been using DK Eyewitness guides more. They have a lot of photos and information on attractions and don't focus nearly as much on an endless list of hotels that I can find online.

Rick read the tea leaves about the huge boomer influx with ample disposable income, and he went right after that crowd with his cruise ship books instead (that was quite a surprise to me but, in retrospect, it makes perfect business sense). As others have said, the market for the places you wrote about is too small and likely not lucrative enough in the US, and all the relative lack of multiple, constantly updated guidebooks across the board reflect that. Although it's a bit of a sad, but probably true, statement that many Rickniks won't give an unknown country a chance unless Rick leads them there. But worry not, American travelers who are really motivated to go to Bulgaria, Romania, Southern Italy, Sardinia, Sicily, etc. are not going to wait until Rick publishes his book, if he ever does. Travel resources are ample and globalized that there is no reason to rely on one source for anything. Experienced travelers are self-starters and pretty resourceful. Word-of-mouth and support from friends, family, etc counts. I convinced my good friend to consider Bulgaria and it wasn't a heavy lift (she had a great time and went as a solo traveler, no knowledge of Cyrillic alphabet, etc.)

Personally, I'd rather that Rick writes books on places he actually has deep expertise in, and that requires first-hand knowledge/research and good contacts and relationship-building on the ground. It sounds like the RS Bulgaria Tour guide could be a great asset if he does ever want to publish a book; he sounds like a highly qualified, well-educated young man with a lot of expertise (just reading from the reviews, I don't know from personal experience). I do know from personal experience that Rick relied heavily on the local tour guides for his Turkey/ Istanbul books. Whether he has potential contacts and collaborators in places like Romania or Sardinia of stature and quality to pump out a credible book is unknown.

Lots of good discussion here. I would like to see a Poland guide or a "Poland and the Baltics" guide, but I'm not holding my breath. It makes sense that the markets for guidebooks to some of these places have to be there before its viable to invest the time and money into it. The soon to be published Sicily guide, and the Iceland guide are happening only because they are becoming more popular with the non-Ricknik traveling public. For many years (decades) the majority of US travelers who went to Sicily were those with family roots there (the ones I knew that went hated it). Now its popular. RS follows the market. The ruining of favorite places I dont think is mostly his fault. These places would be popular because of word-of-mouth, the fact they are truly worthy of attention, and accessibility. Other places he's tagged as "backdoors" don't seem to have that problem. Like someone else said, the majority of tourists in Europe are Europeans, not Americans.

I disagree with Dale on only one point: I dont think the RS country guides are targeted at infrequent travelers, needing handholding. I think they are for people who may be going to a specific place for the first time. The ETBD book was written for newbies to European travel, and mostly promotes independent travel.

Dale, I've been using nothing but DK Eyewitness guides. They are perfect for my style.

So Iceland with about 8.8 million tourist nights per year is a bigger market than Bulgaria with 25.2 million tourist nights? Okay, so maybe two thirds of them are Яussian tourists and that isn't exactly the RS market. And there is so little in Iceland other than rock, the book is probably a lot easier to write; than writing one on a country as large as Bulgaria..,....

Thanks for inspiring a good discussion. I have a few comments.

Many Americans are not constrained by the old “two week
vacation” anymore. Millions can now go whenever they want and for
longer than than ever before. And many are experienced travelers.

So: For heavens sake please “Finish” the Italy Guidebook after
recently staying in Italy for more than a month I can tell you leaving
out Sicily, Sardinia and most of far southern Italy is a Crime!

1. Kathy's post hits a nail on the head.

2. Bulgaria and Romania were added to the Eastern Europe guidebook in the newest edition. We are expanding our coverage, and it takes time to develop enough content to be worthy of its own guidebook.

3. There are indeed many that can travel longer than two weeks. Most of our guidebooks support that, but our tours don't because almost anything longer than two weeks doesn't sell nearly as well.

4. The new Sicily guidebook is slated for release next year. Cameron has blogged a few times about this recently. https://blog.ricksteves.com/cameron/

5. I can't speak for Rick personally, but what you've pointed out is already very much a part of our consideration with regard to these topics.

So Iceland with about 8.8 million tourist nights per year is a bigger
market than Bulgaria with 25.2 million tourist nights?

Per capita, Iceland knocked it out of the park in terms of tourism (their population is only 330k and their tourist numbers are multiples of that). Plus their tourist infrastructure and marketing is top notch and they've worked hard to make it that way with the Iceland Air partnership/ layover. Rick was way behind the curve on Iceland with his guidebook, it has been discovered many, many years ago (although maybe not by Rick's target demographic).

There is simply no currency for these travelers to come home and say
"Oh Lindsey, you simply must visit Plovdiv, the architecture is simply
fantastic" or the digital equivalent. Rome, Paris, London etc ... it
has to be a recognizable site in a recognizable city in order to be
bragged about.

Thought about this a bit and decided to dispute that theory. I think it's less about bragging rights as realizing a dream: seeing firsthand a France, an Italy, a Germany, an Ireland, etc. they've seen pictures of forever, and experiencing emotional connections and expectations those pictures have created.

Whether some romantic bubbles are burst when a traveler finds themselves faced with any number of realities depends on the resilience and adaptability of the individual and the amount/depth of prior research they've done.

...and take the view that places like Florence or Venice are somehow
special (IMO they aren't but anyway)

Sorry but Florence (been too long since I've last seen Venice) is very "special" to me. I imagine it would be to anyone with a healthy interest in Renaissance art. Is it not "special" in your mind because the amount of visitors it sees diminishes its worth? A location can only be "special" if few venture to it?

Per capita, Iceland knocked it out of the park in terms of tourism

But guide books and tours arent sold based upon the the population of the country being visited, they are sold based upon raw tourist numbers. Actually, as far as I am concerned, when the tourist to local ratio gets that tilted, its not a place i want to be. Too much like Disneyland. By the way, been to Iceland and dont understand what the attraction is. But that has noting to to with the point i was trying to make.

There is simply no currency for these travelers to come home and say "Oh Lindsey, you simply must visit Plovdiv, the architecture is simply fantastic" or the digital equivalent. Rome, Paris, London etc ... it has to be a recognizable site in a recognizable city in order to be bragged about.

I guess I hang with a different crowd because so many people I know have lived in or made multiple visits to the 'big names' so it ends up being the more obscure places that get you bragging rights. We're more likely to get encouragement to go see glaciers in Patagonia from friends or details on the three weeks they just spent in SE Asia.

My evil former boss actually did spend two weeks in Bulgaria and Romania a few weeks back. If I hadn't seen her exposed to direct sunlight a few times, I'd wonder if she got turned into a vampire over there.

What a great discussion and so many insightful comments. And thanks to the webmaster for updating us on RS intentions on the books. It was good to hear and a positive step for sure.

I have a few thoughts on some comments (I am sure you are not surprised) :)

Kathy is right that it is all about economics as almost all business decisions are. However I dont think the forum is necessarily a good measure of anything. The source I am sure that is being used is the Country’s own Tourist Visitor arrivals which I used to cite the numbers in my second post above.

90,963 Americans visited Bulgaria in 2017...I would think with Ricks market share of the Guidbook business those numbers would certainly argue for a stand alone Bul/Rom book.

Somehow many have the idea that Russians dominate Bulgarian Tourism. Not True. Only 565,754 Russians came in 2017. That’s about half as many that came from Germany, Turkey, Romania and Greece which each had over one million visitors.

I cant let go by the notion being expressed by someone above that somehow those that choose to use a guidebook to a certain destination are somehow “newbie” travelers or those needing their hands held. By any measure I am anything but a newbie. And I definitely do not need my hand held.

I went to the Spanish Sahara then at war with Morrocco, to Cambodia soon after the fall of the Khmer Rouge when people were stilll being shot while visiting Angkor, to Nigeria, to Sri Lanka when they were at war with the Tamil Tigers and rode a motorcycle for a month around the country, I have traveled to places and at times most Americans would not venture at the time. (If ever) yet I have taken a guidebook in every case and do for those places I know well. Many times I buy several, read them all and take all or parts of one with me. Information is power, I realize that no matter how much I may know about travel or a given place my understanding can often be enhanced by a good guidebook. This pretense that somehow having or using a guidebook distinguishes the Newbie from the World Weary Experienced traveler is, in my view, nonsense of the highest order. Same for the idea people travel to come home and brag....And the Masses Lazy...This is reductio ad absurdum.

@ James E. Thanks for the kind words about the post...I was ready for something new too. And I always enjoy reading your take on things.

Even though I used the term “Rick-Nicks, I try to do it in a non judgemental way. Of course there are the die hards that wont go anywhere Rick doesn’t. But again lets not reduce an entire group of people to a simple equation. I am sure many have disparate views of the world and can handle themselves competently abroad.

Somehow many have the idea that Russians dominate Bulgarian Tourism.
Not True. Only 565,754 Russians came in 2017.

565,764 is 6x the number of US tourists. So maybe its sort of perception; and i would imagine its a lot to do with location too. While driving around the country I cant remember encountering anyone I thought was Russian, but Sunny Beach appeared to be almost entirely Russian (we were in Nessebar and went for there just to see and have dinner). It could also be a shift as the West discovers what the East has known for years.

Some in Bulgaria, but in Montenegro especially, there were countless unoccupied condos built by/for Russians prior to the collapse of the Russian economy. So I would suspect Russian tourism has dropped off to some degree in most locations.

But don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with Russian tourists. I don't want to overly generalize. I know a lot of really great Russian people. They just help to create a different environment than what you would run into in Western Europe.

Great conversation. Thanks

James,

FYI....
https://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/10/18/13261804/iceland-tourism-on-the-rise
"Around 325,000 Americans have visited Iceland in 2016, compared with 51,000 in 2010. That’s a sixfold increase. Currently, Iceland’s population is 332,000 — so this year will mark the first time in history that American tourists to Iceland will outnumber Iceland’s population"

It's pretty clear that Iceland holds more interest for American tourists than Bulgaria, and the huge increases in tourists over time are a reflection of superior marketing and logistics (Iceland Air, WOW, and the Icelandic Tourism Board have a lot to do with that). That's what I meant about the size of the market being small for Bulgaria (not for Europeans, for Americans). Rick is just following the trends, like the cruise ship boomers. As far as Bulgaria goes, even my family behind the Iron Curtain was allowed to travel there in spite of not being able to travel anywhere in the West. So Bulgaria is well known to European travelers throughout the Balkans and E. Europe, and the beaches are indeed more enticing than the Baltic Coast.

Lastly, I'll make a plug for Bradt Guides. Had a very good experience with their Malta guide, as well as Romania. Nat Geo books are great too, even if they're a few years old. It's good to branch out a bit - RS books are not the only game in town. I don't mind Lonely Planet as much as others, and Rough Guides are pretty decent too.

Agnes, but why does Iceland hold more interest? And the real count for Tourist economics is tourist nights per year. Not, that those numbers wont be equally as impressive. I have no idea.

Not to beat the whole Bulgarian thing to death ... here are the numbers. And aarthurperry was correct. I think I go the impression I did because of Sunny Beach....

http://www.nsi.bg/en/content/7081/annual-data

What is interesting is the length of stay that the citizens of various countries make. The Russians stay about 7 days, the Americans not even 2.5 days. I'm not sure, but that may indicate a 2.5 day stop on an organized tour or something else, like dipping ones toe in the water with plans to return if the experience was good. Would love to see the statistics.

It's pretty clear that Iceland holds more interest for American
tourists than Bulgaria, and the huge increases in tourists over time
are a reflection of superior marketing and logistics (Iceland Air,
WOW, and the Icelandic Tourism Board have a lot to do with that).
That's what I meant about the size of the market being small for
Bulgaria (not for Europeans, for Americans).

Agnes; your wisdom once again shines through.

Agnes, but why does Iceland hold more interest?

Well, I'll take a stab. And this is nothing against Bulgaria, which is obviously a much better value.

1) Some unique characteristics like: geothermal energy (used for almost all energy needs), potential to see Northern Lights, almost 24-hour sunlight during summer, sauna culture (loved those saunas!), nice combo of cosmopolitan and pure outdoors, great place for an extended road trip along a well-marked and paved road with no traffic
2) Beautiful landscape - glaciers, geysers, volcanoes, water falls, lava fields, hot springs, black beaches, basalt columns
3) Photographer's dream
4) Well-developed tourism sector (they'll even hook up anyone with a local buddy if they need some handholding)
5) Everyone speaks English well; easy to get around, not intimidating (most folks I saw there were British)
6) Punches well above its weight on nightlife and cultural activities - Iceland Airwaves, Harpa Concert Hall, Reykjavik, etc.
7) Inexpensive to get to from East Coast (5 hour direct overnight flight on a budget carrier), as well as other parts of the country using Iceland Air and WOW; good airline connections with major US markets
8) The Iceland layover was a real marketing success and allowed many people to "sample" Iceland. Plus, the Icelandic Tourist Board keeps marketing their short trip packages like crazy.
9) Word of mouth has been overwhelmingly positive
10) Appeals to many demographics including younger adventure travelers (I love to hike so that was a real draw for me) and has great resources online for trip planning

I guess the short answer is - it's beautiful, doesn't require a huge time commitment (you can make the trip as short or long as your money will last), and is easy to get to and around. Plus you can fly to another European country using the same ticket if you use Iceland Air. Pretty good deal.

Yeaaaaa, I guess you are correct. My impression from my short trip was way the heck too expensive, sort of Moon looking landscape, locals a bit burned out on tourists, miserable airport. BUT, we spend two days doing nothing but going out on whale watching boats and it was fantastic. Loved ever second of it, then couldn't wait to get away from the place. BUT, each to their own and it someone loves it, I'm glad they found it. How boring life would be if we all thought the same. Oh, i was there in July, and sleeping in the daytime didnt help any either......

Please, Please consider this:Travel has changed dramatically as you
well know, Many Americans are not constrained by the old “two week
vacation” anymore. Millions can now go whenever they want and for
longer than than ever before. And many are experienced travelers.

Please, please, please? While we are experienced travelers, we don't have expansive vacation time that you describe. We never have. We are not the exception at least not in New York among our colleagues, friends and families. We can go away 4 days here, 8 days there. Not clumped unless we make special arrangements like we did for our honeymoon. That we are in NYC means that we have easy access to nonstop flights to get us overseas quite conveniently and easily with competitive fares showing up here and there given the competition at JFK. This does give us the chance to fly overseas 2X/year which is great.

It seems that Iceland might also be easier to get to than Bulgaria? I’m not as well traveled as you are but I think of traveling there in terms of flying from Atlanta or NY a shorter distance than Bulgaria. Just a thought...but I do believe Iceland has great marketing as someone said.

I’m on the east coast so I think of London, Paris and Amsterdam as quick hops over the pond. I would add Iceland and other places, of course.

The Iceland thing puzzles me too. I dont see the attraction. And I wonder if some of those high arrival numbers are people on just a day or so free layover on their way to their “Real” Destination/Vacation and thus skewing the numbers horribly.

That does not negate RS in his decision to do a book however in fact it validates it. (Another book sold to someone who has probably purchased one already)

Continental, i think aarthurperry was referring to government employees.

Judy, I am not suggesting anyone go to Bulgaria. Dont know how i ended up on the whole Bulgaria thing other than it was an example of something bigger. On the other hand, i really enjoyed our time in Bulgaria.

aarthurperry, i think i read the average stay was 2.5 nights. After all how many moon rocks can you look at and how many $30 puffin burgers can you eat?

@James E
...actually I was referring to the hundreds of thousands probably millions who can work remotely and all they need is an internet connection. However gov. Employees are for sure covered in the idea.

Please, Please consider this:Travel has changed dramatically as you
well know, Many Americans are not constrained by the old “two week
vacation” anymore. Millions can now go whenever they want and for
longer than than ever before. And many are experienced travelers.

Statistical data behind that statement, please? It flies in the face of every article regarding American holiday habits that I've ever read. While random reports indicate a encouraging uptick in the amount of allotted vacation time working Americans are actually using, according to the bits of recent data I could find - such as this one* (link below) - the average of holiday time being used for travel is less than half of it.

https://projecttimeoff.com/reports/state-of-american-vacation-2018/

Sure, we could cherrypick some trends according to demographics, such as a greater % of Millennials interested in "workcations", but the jury appears to be out on the average length taken for that sort of trip. The jury is also out on whether a "workcation" technically applies as a vacation, as most of us would think of it, and how time for that sort of holiday is normally spent. Are workcationers moving about/sightseeing or typically sitting, say, on the same beach/resort for those X number of days? How many daily hours spent plugged vs. unplugged? Is a workcation closer to business vs. leisure travel?

(*)Methodology behind collection and analysis of data was not included in the report so is in question but the top line is generally in keeping with other reports I'm seeing.

Kathy, could I get you to delete that post before one of my employees sees it and wants 17 days off a year.

The article is pretty fascinating!

After all how many moon rocks can you look at

As someone who just spent just shy of two weeks doing a Utah national parks loop, I can say that some people like to look at lots and lots of rocks.

Average Paid vacation days after specified years of service:(4)

1 year....................... 8.1

5 years...................... 11.9

10 years..................... 13.9

15 years..................... 14.8

20 years..................... 15.4

25 years..................... 15.7
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
Compare that to time off for Federal Employees

Vacation and Sick Leave. All full time employees receive 10 paid holidays, 13 days of vacation for the first three years service, 20 days of vacation with three to 15 years of service, and 26 days after 15 years.

Many state and local jurisdictions have their own additional holidays as well. For example, employees at state agencies in Texas take off Texas Independence Day, Lyndon B. Johnson’s Birthday and a few other holidays.

Now if you assume all government workers get more or less the equivalent of the Federal workers, and with 15% of all workers being government workers, and all that is represented in the averages above, the private sector is really taking a hit for the averages to be so low.

So to reach the vacation numbers in that other article, a lot of folks are taking unpaid time off to travel; or most that travel are Government Employees.

Mr Steves' books are primarily aimed at North Americans, his tours (and most others) geared towards popular destinations. Though not for me, I can't blame anyone taking one of these tours if they only have a chance or two to visit Europe. Tours of Europe have existed for eons, they have just grown in numbers, many believing that an organised tour is the ideal form of travel year to year. Similarly, a good majority of independent travellers, with limited time and resources, will not be heading off to Bulgaria, or any other Eastern European country for that matter, unless primarily for ancestral reasons. Maybe a few good travel books would change all that, though there are still large pockets in Italy, Britain, Germany et al, where you will hardly hear a foreign accent, if at all. And for every traveller swayed east, there will be more room for me to spread my elbows in Assisi, Rothenburg and Chipping Campden. It's a win-win situation for everybody. Now all we need is more vacation time and a bit of extra cash.

The best thing Bulgaria can do is to work on it's national football team. Tourism to Iceland spiked after the 2016 Euros, as it will no doubt for Croatia next year (yes, people have started to catch on already).

I think some of you are looking at the US Workforce through your own experiences and may not be considering the entire picture when it comes to how things have changed. And to Kathy’s point I was not referencing those in traditional jobs with little vacation or those policies. (though there are certain segments of the US economy like Tech that is much more amenable to longer vacations)

Consider this:

There are according to the Guardian and BLS approximately 16 Million people in the US working in what is called the “Gig” economy. some are no doubt just trying to make ends meet, but many are successful and working remotely via the web in many many ways. I even know some Doctors who do it. I meet them all the time traveling.

There are 42.45 Million RETIRED people getting social security. IE That many of us are officially retired.

There are in addition, 3 million Temporary employees. (Many of these are professionals such as Engineers, Software designers and others who choose to work on a temporary basis. And one of the reasons they often cite...more time off.

Then there are a great many thousands maybe hundreds of thousand of guys like me who retired early (53) who have worked and now travel and or mix the two in differing proportions. I know many many of these. I meet them travelling all the time.

So while not all of the above people may have the resources or the time to travel longer the sheer numbers speak for them selves. The number of US Retired people are at an all time high and will continue to rise as Baby Boomers continue into retirement.

But it is clear from the data that things have changed and will continue to. Numerous articles have been written about Gen X’ers who eschew the traditional work patterns and go down a different path.

Even many government employees such as a good friend of mine very high in the chain of the GAO can work remotely most of the time.

So I think that there is more out there than some think. And Frankly (and this is a bit off topic here) we have no one to blame but ourselves for our terrible lack of vacation time. If the very successful large companies (and small) of Europe can afford the vacation time of the Europeans and still be profitable so can American ones. But it will take a different mindset and different voting patterns for it to change.

Tom,
The average nationally, including Federal Employees is 8.1 paid holidays. Government employees get 10 (apparently 14 in Texas). That must mean the average non-government can't be getting more than maybe 7.5.

The other article talked of vacations, but didn't specify domestic or foreign and didnt actually define what a vacation was. Not sure if a long weekend hunting meets the definition or not. My 4 day weekend to Iceland last year over the 4th i think would be a vacation, but my 5 day hunting trip over the Thanksgiving Holidays, might not. I love how statistics say so little.

As for Bulgaria. Wow! It was an example in a totally different conversation. I don't really think many in this forum would enjoy Bulgaria. Not mainstream enough in a lot of ways.

aarthurperry, it has spun off topic, but its a good conversation.

To say that full time remote workers take more vacation time is to say they receive benifits that a typical office worker does not. I dont know why that would be true. Not if the theory that productivity is the same at home as it is in the office. I have a couple that work remotely and they get treated like everyone else in the office. Still they make up 3% of the workforce so I'm not sure that has any significant impact on the statistics.

"The average nationally, including Federal Employees is 8.1 paid holidays. Government employees get 10 (apparently 14 in Texas). That must mean the average non-government can't be getting more than maybe 7.5. "

I have no way of knowing if those figures are true, but if they are, why do American workers allow themselves to be exploited? What is the point of working to earn money if you cannot also have reasonable time off to enjoy spending it, whether on holiday or just at home with your family? .

A lot of people working remotely are under strict rules about location, ie it must be from home and not at the beach or wherever.

For many people I know there are issues with storage or confidential or privileged paper documents when working at home that would make it hard to road trip while working.

why do American workers allow themselves to be exploited?

Life is about balance and balance is viewed through a cultural lens.

Here's good, statistically valid data on people who work from home brought to you by our Census Bureau.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2012/demo/p70-132.html

I think instead of trying to parse how much vacation working stiffs have or don't have, why not concentrate on the huge number of retirees who have more time and income at their disposal? Future generations will not be similarly situated, as pensions have disappeared and most aren't saving enough to retire.

Even working stiffs who have a generous 5 weeks of vacation still make tradeoffs between using that time for personal things and family obligations. Also, many people have pets they don't want to leave behind for weeks at a time (not everyone can bring their dog overseas, although I truly applaud the OP for doing that). Dedicating 2 full weeks and more to one country - and especially one that most people can't find on a map or know much about - is a true sacrifice and a tradeoff. Current (well off and relatively healthy) retirees are in the best position to make that tradeoff. Even people who can work anywhere in the world from their laptops are still expected to work, not to pretend they're working while they're actually traveling. If Rick's audience truly had as much time to expend as the OP believes, this would be reflected in the maximum tour durations. The reason why the tour durations are rather skimpy is indicative of how much time people feel they can really afford to spare (and these are people who skew toward the retired or about to retire, by the way...and also teachers who have the entire summers off).

As for why American workers "allow themselves to be exploited", the simple answer is they have no leverage with their employers as "at will" employees who could be let go for any reason at any time (the exception is career government employees, who have much greater security). The "contract" between labor and business is broken, and there is no trust between individuals and their political representatives and institutions either. This is the sorry state that we're in.

Agnes, as usual, you make well thought out arguments

It would be great if as a society we could work less and still maintain the same standard of living. You know, like government employees do. Proof of what happens when you let the children run the nursery school. I would be all for that. But I think we will have to change a lot of cultural values first.

The idea that a citizen could improve their lot or community via political action is considered naïve and proven false.

Margaret Mead: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

Agnes has provided food for thought and many of the comments are instructive although I think the reality is still ahead of the perception on this in that more people do have more time and more freedom.

Why do Americans allow themselves to receive the lowest number of vacation days in the industrialized world? It’s simple. We have been fooled all of our lives to beleive corporations will be non competitive if these laws are enacted. And we continue to vote against our own best interests.

Now back to Bulgaria...

Tomorrow we leave Plovdiv sadly as it is a wonderful city of vast pedestrian areas filled with people, hundreds of cafes, restaurants, shops truly friendly people and some really great food. We visited the Archeology Museum this morning and it is filled with treasures, utensils and armor and weapons dating from 6000 BC up through the Middle Ages. The Thracian artifacts alone are worth the trip. The artistic vision of those peoples was astounding and it is brought to life in solid gold cups, chalices, breastplates, jewelry and other artifacts with an eye to detail and workmanship not exceeded possibly even in the renaissance.

Plovdiv is also essentially built atop a host of other ancient cities, Roman Trimontium, Phillipopolis, and Nebet Tepe. The layers of history are evident all around you as you walk this city. At nearly every turn is evidence of the great Roman city this once was. The Ottoman influence is strong here and it mixes into a swirl of cultures from the past and present.

You can debate vacation time all you want, but if you want to spend some truly rewarding time abroad, with great food, really good wine, amazing history, wonderful and freindly people and beautiful scenery Bulgaria should be high on your list. Not to mention its a real bargain. You could spend twice as long here for the same money as Italy or France.

I have been here 16 days already and will be here for some more. I am off to Rila Monastary tomorrow and then back to Sofia. I have put more than 1100 kilometers on my rental car since I got it on the 1st of July. Ive seen a lot of Bulgaria and it has all been rewarding.

Re: "...a generous 5 weeks of vacation...." That depends on the country. In 1981 Mitterrand signed into law that the French would receive 6 weeks of vacation.

Re: "...a generous 5 weeks of vacation...." That depends on the
country.

I was referencing only the US in that statement. If you've been at a (decent) firm for 10+ years, it's possible to have that much vacation. But the ability (and willingness) to take very large chunks at once is less favorable especially for the aspiring career climbers (who are trying to keep up with their bosses on total hours worked each year). Most Americans don't even take all the vacation hours they've accrued each year, which is even more surprising/ confusing. And only a portion use it for foreign travel.

Tom_MN

Reminds me of an old adage, be careful what you with for. If you haven't lived the life in those countries you believe exist you have no idea .....

A little correction for Fred: the law that went into effect under Mitterand is five weeks of vacation, not six. The thinking was 4 weeks in summer and 1 in winter.

You may be right, I need to go back to the book where I got that piece of info some years ago. I'll look it up.

There are 42.45 Million RETIRED people getting social security. IE
That many of us are officially retired.

Then there are a great many thousands maybe hundreds of thousand of
guys like me who retired early (53) who have worked and now travel and
or mix the two in differing proportions. I know many many of these. I
meet them travelling all the time.

Yes but you cannot live more than bare subsistence on Social Security alone. Yes, YOU retired very early but I'm sure you had considerable savings and investments to be able to do that plus possibly a pension and health benefits which were not available to every worker and will probably never be available again for the generations behind us Boomers. Yes, you have the means to travel extensively in your circumstances. You are not the norm, not even CLOSE to the norm.

Less than 1/2 of Americans have more than $1,000 in savings/investments.

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/05/21/what-the-average-american-has-and-needs-in-emergen.aspx

You cannot compare your situation to the average American as it's anything but average and probably sitting somewhere in the uppermost percentiles. Worldwide? The VAST majority of humans on this earth have no concept of traveling for pleasure.

...many are successful and working remotely via the web in many many
ways. I even know some Doctors who do it. I meet them all the time.

Doctors? See above about the upper percentile. Really, Arthur, I enjoy your posts but you appear to be acutely out of touch with the reality of most of your compatriots.

Fred, pass the popcorn.

Kathy, My reference from Social Security was a way to get at the total number of Retired people in the US. Not about how much disposable income they had. And to differentiate the Retired on SS from those on other forms. It was a way to get a handle on some percentage of us that have the time and money to travel.

And this: my statement was about putting up numbers that would show that there are plenty of people with the TIME to travel. Many of which have the means also. Many millions of those on SS also have pensions and investments as well. The fact of being on Social Security does not automatically put one in any particular economic class.

By the way it can be dangerous to make assumptions, I retired at 53 because I had stage 4 head and neck Cancer and decided I had better things to do with my life than work (or have my own business)

So I hope that clarifies my thinking.

Thanks for the clarity, Arthur, and I'm sincerely glad you conquered the beastly "C".

By the way it can be dangerous to make assumptions, I retired at 53
because I had stage 4 head and neck Cancer and decided I had better
things to do with my life than work (or have my own business)

Fair enough but still, yours is a most unusual situation, and I'm drawing that conclusion from interesting bits and bobs about your background gleaned from prior posts. Far, far fewer than more could afford to swing retirement in their early 50's plus travel abroad for 5 months so not much of a stretch to make some assumptions? Shoot, just handling the cost of health insurance prior to Medicare would be a barrier for the majority.

And this: my statement was about putting up numbers that would show
that there are plenty of people with the TIME to travel. Many of which
have the means also. Many millions of those on SS also have pensions
and investments as well. The fact of being on Social Security does not
automatically put one in any particular economic class.

Of course. But aren't you making some assumptions as well? What % is "many"? What % of those "many" have enough discretionary income to cover travel abroad? How many who do are even interested in that versus, say, buying the RV and road-tripping the U.S. or snow-birding domestically in a winter property? How many are healthy enough to do so? How many have caretaking responsibilities (e.g. aging parents or grandchildren) which don't allow for lengthy holidays?

Whatever the case, IMHO we could safely assume that the RS organization keeps an ear to the ground regarding trends and the market research behind them? It would be interesting to have their take on where things are heading. It would be especially interesting in regards to the generations lacking some advantages (pensions, generous healthcare packages and whatnot) which helped a fair amount of Boomers nest the egg.

At least a significant rise in U.S. passport holders over the past decade is encouraging although I don't know how may of those are being used mostly for air to bordering countries which formerly didn't require them (Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, etc).

aarthurperry;

I'm not sure the growth in tourism is as much economic, although the recent economic boom sure doesn't hurt; as it is the result of a world that is getting smaller, and smaller. One of my employees lives and works in Eastern Europe, 6 are from the Middle East, one is from the Asian Subcontinent, two from South America.

When once these places were far off and mysterious; now they are little more than so-and-so's home town. A few of my employees are seriously discussing attending a co-worker's wedding in Asia in a few months. I've been a part of this business for almost 30 years; the past 5 have seem remarkable transformations in this sort of thing. Still, among a certain group, they would turn down a trip to Europe with free airfare for three days drinking too much beer while getting burnt on a bass boat. Others have made lifestyle choices so they can afford to see the world. It isnt that much about income, its about interests, priorities and lifestyle.

Another thing to consider, since this thread has wandered pretty far away, is that even with a decent amount of vacation time, sometimes you're stuck working with a boss that doesn't value travel. I had a boss for quite a while that associated vacations with putting up with a nagging wife, two bickering kids, hot muggy Disney World weather, and overpriced food and drink. So, trying to navigate the minefield and requesting time off for something as 'annoying' as travel with him was quite a delicate act. And, of course, going to Europe for less than ten days or so doesn't really make sense to me.

At least now with the strong economy, I feel confident asking for my time off. Plus, at least I have a boss who isn't anti-travel, he just doesn't travel anywhere.

In 2017 over 40% of Americans have passports.

US citizens' travel in 2016

80,226,167 Total number of overseas journeys
39% Of journeys were to Mexico...
17% ...to Canada
17% ...to Europe
https://travel.trade.gov

These last 2 posts are fascinating, a lot of those Mexico visitors are ones that just drive over from Texas for lunch and a bit of shopping, & there may be a similiar phenomenon on the Canadian border. Of the unspecified remaining percentage of international travel, a large chunk may be for work or visiting family members.
But it's the poster just before that summed it up for me, there are many offices in which it's actively discouraged to take time off. We have to hire someone to come in and cover some of my hours while i'm gone, an additional expense & hassle for my employers. 2018 will be the first year in may be forever that all of my vacation time will be used for really VACATION, not 3 days hanging out at my sister's house, etc. Last fall I took a week to be w a dear friend in another state for her surgery, and to help get some things in place at her house postoperative.

So yeah, even those of us w four weeks vacation and a good credit card to buy a ticket with, have to balance office politics & family commitments as we think about time away.

Dale why do American employers find this such a problem when European employers dont?

I'm an American employer I can't imagine why any employer would have any problem with what an employee does in their free time. Being afraid of what your boss thinks is a bit odd. Been working for 45 years and it never crossed my mind. Actually in interviews those that have some experience in the world catch my attention first.

Dear Rick.... a plea for less...
I think there are already enough tours, guide books, maps, websites as is. I miss the days when the only thing available was a thread worn Michelin guide. Tour guide books funnel too many tourists into the same towns, museums shops and restaurants. RS (and yes I read his books and own them) literally gives a step by step paths through many places. It's too much. Travelers should learn to plan and explore without a step by step guide to everything "of interest".

The May, June, September dates make sense as they are months with holidays in them and they also overlap with kid school schedules or teacher "summer off" schedules. Folks always want to maximize holiday time, longer summer days, and decent weather. Even for those who don't need to work around kid schedules still tend to take vacation when their co-workers do for some reason. If you take your vacation at an off-time like November, it seems like everyone at the office notices because it's atypical. In general, very few companies/bosses encourage the taking of very lengthy vacations at one time and so folks feel pressured not to, even though they have legally earned it. It's still up to the boss to approve vacation timing and length in a manner that's more conducive to business needs, not personal needs (including being "available" on your cell even though you're on vacation). It's a different norm than other countries, including Europe.

Save for high mountain locations, September, May and June typically bring milder weather than July and August do, and if it's not a beach vacation year, there's something to be said for getting there before or after heat can be an issue, especially in areas that are hit or miss on air conditioning.

James E & Caro. I work for a small non profit...... so that might be part of the norm against anything too flashy/ conspicuous consumption,
It's the same ethos that would make it difficult to park a snazzy sports car in an employee parking space. "WHAT Are they really doing w our donations?"

My rant (sorry):

I liked Rick's guides best until I went to Italy and discovered 9/10's of the country doesn't exist. Apparently only the handful of pre-selected destinations are worth visiting.

It's the same in Spain. I came away deciding Rick doesn't like Spain at all. Whether it's because he didn't enjoy the food, or had some lodging he wasn't happy with, he seems to report on the basics without any appreciation.

Rick seems to love France, but his coverage of southwest France is about as comprehensive as Italy or Spain.

Rick has taken it on himself to decide where Americans need to visit, what to see, how long to stay, where to lodge and eat. His books tell them all they'll need to know about all they need to know about. If it's not in the book, for all practical purposes it doesn't exist (so why would anyone want to travel there?).

Rick seems to be betting his book/video purchasers are ignorant and his bottom line supports his bet. Rick takes all the thinking out of travel and seemingly his readers appreciate it. His sales volume isn't driven by people looking to explore something new. It's driven by novice travelers looking for safe, photo-friendly, vacations so they can say they've "been there". His take on culture is bland pap, like bleached flour instead of whole grain. The sad thing is too many Americans are coming home from vacation thinking they've "seen" Europe, when all they've done is mindlessly follow an itinerary.

I still enjoy some of the insights in Rick's books about certain cities' public transportation options and options for getting into busy sights. The best parts of his books are when he covers things that aren't included in other books. I don't see his books improving. Like so many travel guides, it's reduced to updates by staffers who dare not think outside the box. Sadly, I don't think Rick's latest edition books have added value in them. You might as well check one out of the library for the rare piece of new information that may or may not be accurate.

Rick has taken it on himself to decide where Americans need to visit, what to see, how long to stay, where to lodge and eat. His books tell them all they'll need to know about all they need to know about. If it's not in the book, for all practical purposes it doesn't exist (so why would anyone want to travel there?).

Like all the travel guide publishers, Rick's got a specific POV and a limited number of pages. I actually get far less of a 'if you don't do it this way, you're Doing It Wrong' vibe from his books than a number of folks on the boards here. And I say this as someone who is more of a Lonely Planet sort of traveler than a RS one and who often does disagree with the RS Guides (Betws-y-Coed is indeed awesome and not 'too touristy' y'all!) , so not a slavish fangirl.

Like in academia, in real life it's good and healthy to use multiple sources on a big project, and I see the RS guides as one very nice primary though never sole source as I plan a big trip.

If you don't see value in his POV why virtually hang out here for so long?

I have not been in Europe during August since 2009...luckier then. Since then the trips have all been in May or June going into the first week in July. I don't see May as off season since it is as crowded as in July. That's the perception. Riding the ICE trains in May is as crowded, packed as in peak season on the trunk lines.

Interesting that Rick's Facebook page today is about using the most up to date guide and changes he's made in the Vienna guide for the upcoming year.

As far as the above topic about American offices, it would be nice if we were all robots. But, of course, we're not and it is hard when you work with a manager who doesn't value travel and you're asking for two weeks off. Plus, in a small department, negotiating time off requires the expertise of a UN Ambassador. I tend to take trips in May and/or end of November before peak Christmas time in order to allow cowokers to have their time off in the peak of the summer as well as around Christmas, since I'm single and don't have family nearby nor do I have an arm twisted behind my back to make sure I'm present for Christmas.

In general, very few companies/bosses encourage the taking of very
lengthy vacations at one time and so folks feel pressured not to, even
though they have legally earned it. It's still up to the boss to
approve vacation timing and length in a manner that's more conducive
to business needs, not personal needs (including being "available" on
your cell even though you're on vacation). It's a different norm than
other countries, including Europe.

In my world the norm is a lot different. Not just with me, but among my competitors and those that serve us and whom we serve. I don't encourage my employees to do anything. Not my place to encourage their life style. Because they are professionals, working in a Profession; the best of the best realize that what is conducive to the business needs is also conducive to their personal needs and they are compensated for this wisdom.

Oddly enough the ones that most recognize how good it is in the United States are my foreign national employees. From 4 continents they make up a little more than 20% of my workforce and are the highest paid in my workforce.

If your employer requires you to be on call with your cell phone you may have some claim for compensation.

With regards to vacation time, my husband leaves town when he wants to (up to 2 1/2 weeks at the time), but the only days he's ever really off are Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, etc. When he went on a hiking trip in Nepal, he had to take a satellite phone with him. On days that are allegedly vacation, he spends a significant amount of time at night answering his emails and submitting reports. When he goes to a weekend meeting out of town, he sometimes works 12 days straight without a day off. A trip to NY that was planned to be a family only Christmas trip ended up with him spending most of a day at his company's office there. Of the 11 trips I've been to Europe, he had meetings scheduled during 7 (but I'm very good at entertaining myself-just give me a museum and a subway card or taxi money or train ticket and I'm happy).

With today's technology, I imagine this is the case for lots of people who seemingly take long vacations.

Maybe Mr Steves can write a treatise on universal vacation times at the same time he works on his Bulgaria and Romania guides.

Wooo Cala poor you, thats dreadful.

Rick has taken it on himself to decide where Americans need to visit, what to see, how long to stay, where to lodge and eat. His books tell them all they'll need to know about all they need to know about. If it's not in the book, for all practical purposes it doesn't exist (so why would anyone want to travel there?).

@Brad, I think you are right about his preferences for France lets say over Italy, but I am not sure I would take it as far as you do. And to the above quote; I am not quite that cynical about his motives. I think Ricks main goal in life has been to get more Americans to travel, to get the “...huddled masses” un-huddled and out of small town America to get a different perspective on the world. While I may quibble with his choices of what is included in any given book, and you are right about the Italy book and I agree with you, he has made a difficult choice to highlight the areas and sights that have the broadest appeal to the most people. After all if you are to get Joe Sixpack off the couch and his John Deere lawn mower and off to Europe you cant do it by convincing him to go to Bulgaria first. (Broad oveergeneralization here please don’t pounce)

Also about the level of information: generally I think he hits the sweet spot of detail. Blue Guides are the Encyclopeadia Brittanica of travel guides, Lonely Planet the USA Today version, RS seems to be, NOT surprisingly the PBS version. He tries hard to give enough background on the art and architecture without the reader passing out from exhaustion.

And lets remember his GUIDEbooks are just that a Guide not a dictate.

I must say, I really appreciate the detail Rick's books go into in the areas they do cover thoroughly. This was particularly helpful on a recent trip to Rome when we had limited time. We went to the Capitoline Museum, where each of us had a few highlights we wanted to see but only a vague idea of what was in the rest of the museum. No worries - the book guided us in an efficient path around the museum and had good information about what we were looking at in each room. When we went to Ostia Antica, the book had detailed directions for how to get to the site from the train station (the path is not terribly well marked) and on to the highlights of the site itself. As we were leaving, we wondered if, since we were so close to the beach, it would be worthwhile to head down there to have a look around or if we should just go back to the city. Rick's book explained what one could expect at the beach at all times of year (including in January, when we were there).

It wouldn't be feasible to cover every corner of Europe in that level of detail - it would make for a hugely unwieldy guidebook and probably require a much bigger staff than the company has. So they've made the editorial decision to prioritize coverage of some towns, cities, and regions at the expense of completely ignoring others. And that's fine - as long as you realize that when Rick says that a place is boring or not worth visiting (or doesn't mention it at all), that's just one opinion, so you might want to seek out other sources of information.

Caro, thanks for the sympathy but the upside to this is frequent flyer miles and hotel points-and the fact that I have been to Europe 11 times! (My husband has lost count of how many times he's been) My point is just that everything in life involves tradeoffs and costs-time, money, my husband's freedom to sort of take off from work for 2 1/2 weeks at the time. Example: teachers have 2 months off in the summer and 2 weeks at Christmas-but look at their paychecks(which I know are significantly higher in some parts of the country than in others) and their inability to travel during cheaper and less crowded times of the year.

Very true about trade-offs in life. Traveling to Europe is no different in that regard as it involves what one is willing to cope with, tolerate, and put up with as regards to levels of luxury expected, basically travel trade-offs. Since I have always traveled basically in the summer from early to late, ie peak season, ie, sometime between May and August, I still prefer going in the summer. Just know that there are certainly disadvantages as well as advantages.