Credit card PIN sometimes required

I had a similar experience at a German train kiosk. Also at unattended gas stations in France. I’ve since read that you can just enter 0000, but have not tried it since I did have a pin set up.

I encountered this not in Germany (where I had no problem buying train tickets with my CC), but Spain last year. Specifically Barcelona to Montserrat - machine wanted a PIN with CC, but took Apple Pay with no difficulties. No problems with my CC in any other circumstance or location on that trip.

I have read that some enter 0000 when asked for PIN and it is accepted. This was at Paris train stations. My card has always been accepted.

edit - cross-post - another France 0000 hack!

Most of the need for a PIN has to do with the amount, your card, and the kiosk has a limit as to how many Dollars/Euros that it will allow with no verification. Generally, this is around $50. It is the same with tap and a physical card, it works with no PIN up to an amount, in the EU this is 50 euro, the UK 100 GBP. If tap is available, your phone will allow a higher limit, both Google Wallet and Apple Pay.

Other than that, you can request a PIN from your credit card, but in the US, only a very few cards have a PIN for purchases. The PIN provided is for a cash advance at an ATM.

Regarding various hacks, the 0000 or others, that can be very hit or miss. Usually, in a store, the POS will not ask for a PIN, because it knows you do not have one, so it prints out a slip to sign. At kiosks, it may just bring up the PIN request as part of the sequence, and just accepts whatever, even a random 4 digits, but that is fading. That was the case when kiosks completed offline transactions and back before 2015, so I wouldn't bank on it. In fact, many systems block use of PINs like 0000, 1111, and 1234.

I do have a US based card that has a PIN for purchases assigned, and it is even PIN priority (one of only a few US cards to allow this) and every trip, for larger amounts, whether I tap or insert my card, it asks for a PIN.

If you want to check to see if a PIN for purchases is available for your card, this database https://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/ shows the available CVM (Card Verification Method) for the card, and their order. If PIN is not listed, it is not available.

If you want to check to see if a PIN for purchases is available for your card, this database https://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/ shows the available CVM (Card Verification Method) for the card, and their order. If PIN is not listed, it is not available.

Help me interpret this.

For Chase Sapphire Preferred, the chart on that table indicates "no CVM required". So what does that mean for the transactions people are having rejected? That Chase doesn't require or offer CVM, but the vendor's POS terminal may require it? What is the solution for this situation for the credit card holder?

For another card I have (Bank of America premium rewards), there is an indication of "enciphered PIN verified online" which suggests I have a PIN for purchases. Does that sound correct? Guess I need to contact them to find out what that PIN is...

Thanks for this thread and the link to that site.

Tom,
Back in the day when ATMs began (I was a bank employee then) we set up our pin at the branch office, choosing our own 4 digit CC pin, just as we did for our debit card. A bank officer or new account person had us enter one on their desktop bank computer (without looking) and then took us outside to test it at the ATM. I never had a bank assign a pin to me. I always chose my own. Anyone else have this experience? (You are probably in the older group if so...at least in your 70's.)

For Chase Sapphire Preferred, the chart on that table indicates "no CVM required". So what does that mean for the transactions people are having rejected?

Your card allows Signature, and No CVM required. The "No CVM" means you can use the card, and they will not have you sign, input a PIN or anything, the transaction goes through. Though usually, this method has a Dollar limit, maybe $50. In the US, this is higher for a place like a grocery store. Basically, if you insert your card, and it does not ask you to sign, then it used the No CVM.

That Chase doesn't require or offer CVM, but the vendor's POS terminal may require it?

Yes, this is just the CVM list and ranking for your card. The POS also has a list and a ranking. You wind up using the highest match between the two. Tap has it's own protocol, as does your phone. So using the same account three different ways, can give you three different results, and why your card may work fine in one place, but not in the other.

What is the solution for this situation for the credit card holder?

The easiest is to use a manned POS. So instead of the ticket machine, head to a ticket desk. Instead of pay at the pump, go inside and pay. Stores are no issue because a person usually helps you (But my wife ran into a case once where the young staff were not aware that a slip would print out to sign). Tap has also alleviated many issues, as has the use of Apple and Google Pay.

For another card I have (Bank of America premium rewards), there is an indication of "enciphered PIN verified online" which suggests I have a PIN for purchases. Does that sound correct? Guess I need to contact them to find out what that PIN is...

Yes, you should be able to get a PIN for that card. If you have a PIN that was for a cash advance, they are the same PIN. But, in use, what you may find is that you are rarely asked for a PIN, since Signature is higher, a slip will be printed out to sign in most cases. The PIN verification is also online, some kiosks and gas pumps may not be online, though that is becoming more rare.

Paul, thanks for that very clear explanation. This should be stickied...

I’m I’m
Canadian, everyone has a pin on their cc card , don’t Americans ?

I’m I’m Canadian, everyone has a pin on their cc card , don’t Americans ?

No, very few do,

US credit cards were reluctant to implement the EMV chip, claiming it was "expensive".

The current take is... American credit cards don't universally have PINs because credit card companies have historically prioritized consumer convenience over requiring PINs for most purchases, fearing it would slow down the payment process and discourage usage

It has also been bluntly stated that using a PIN was too difficult for mast Americans.

In the end, US credit card companies accept a higher level of fraud as an operating expense, but US CC fraud is about 10 times that of the EU, with the US having a smaller population.

I bring over 4 credit cards, 3 of which are equipped with the PIN.

This summer there were times when buying from the DB machine the PIN was required. Not always but still. The credit card transaction went through after the PIN was entered, this was only in Germany and not at all DB machines, never in France.

It makes no difference whether the PIN is useful or not, I get one anyway even though you can tell the credit card issuer is not always really helpful in dealing with your PIN request, as if they didn't want to be bothered.

Only place that I encountered an issue with needing a PIN for a credit card was in Denmark and Norway some years ago.
I found that that you need to tell the waitress or teller "signature" in advance.
Haven't run into that problem when we visited Norway in 2019, about five years after the first visit.

"It has also been bluntly stated that using a PIN was too difficult for mast Americans." - I think this is Professor Howard Gardner's premise. He initially gave some thought to the possible use of a two digit PIN for Americans but eventually decided even that was too much of a stretch.

I would suggest that if a PIN is called for such as when buying a ticket from the DB machine that requires it to be entered and you don't have one, not the end of the world, but another piece of unneeded inconvenience. I am sure you won't be smiling at that point because w/o the PIN you can still get the ticket but from another " available " DB machine, ie more waiting, more time wasted, etc. looking for that available DB machine.

That's why I have the PIN with 3 out of the 4 cc I bring over. Not interested if a PIN is needed, how ever frequently or vice versa, that is irrelevant, regardless if the cc issuer trying to convenience me of not needing the PIN, (and they have) , ie I am not interested in listening to these perfunctory arguments and insist , contrary to all their arguments, on having a 4 digit PIN of my own choosing.

Their assigning me the PIN is still unacceptable, I have to choose those 4 digits.

My experience has been that Google Wallet often works beautifully even when the credit card attached to it does not. I can't remember Google Wallet ever being refused in Europe.

jphbucks, thank you for answering the question I was about to ask... I recently added a local bank's debit card to my Google Wallet, and in the process of adding it, it seems Google Wallet contacted that bank, and connected me to it. I then had to answer a couple of questions to verify my identity. Then it completed. So I'm thinking that card, when in Google Wallet, will actually work in the EU, without even using the pin. I really like this because it gives me one more way to buy stuff in the EU.

It is generally not recommended to use debit cards for purchases because you have less fraud protection than with credit cards.

Using Google Wallet or Apple Pay gives you an additional layer of protection, plus allows higher transaction limits without further authentication like a signature or PIN. Because it is on your phone, and your phone requires a PIN, or biometric (Face recognition, finger print) it is seen as more secure. The drawback, though not much, is that the POS or Kiosk needs to accept NFC or tap transactions. Toll machines, ticket machines, and gas pumps have been lagging in that regard.

As for the old advice about not using a debit card due to fraud, on your phone, that is many times less a concern. The original concern was with skimmers taking your information and duping the magnetic strip. It works in the US, but not so much in Europe due to security measures. There, skimming is almost unheard of. If you look around just about anyplace in Europe, and see local people paying with cards, it is almost always a debit card.

FWIW, as for fraud protection, your debit and credit cards have the same basic protection (a maximum of $50) except with credit, you do not pay the charges immediately, with debit, the money moves out of your account and is reimbursed once the charges have been cleared.

That is the issue right there:

with credit, you do not pay the charges immediately, with debit, the money moves out of your account and is reimbursed once the charges have been cleared

With a credit card, it's an instant loan and you're playing with the house's money. If someone makes a fraudulent charge it isn't on you, it's on your bank. With a debit card, that money is sucked immediately out of your account and it will take a while to get it back.

I've been travelling long enough that there used to be a whole thing about "chip and PIN" credit cards to use in Europe. I purposely got one from Andrews FCU. In all my travels I think I only had to enter the magic PIN twice, as noted the rest of the time the payment terminal would say Ooops he's charging too much (or Ooops it's an American card) and spit out a receipt to sign.