Confused about chip-and-signature vs. chip-and-PIN

No - two different creatures. And you first statement is in error. The standard is the European chip and pin with an October 15 changer over date. Many cc companies are now issuing chip and pin. My new SW card is chip and pin.

Our experience trying to get a definitive answer has been that if you ask three different people at the bank you'll probably get four different answers.
The latest thing we've been told is that when merchants in the U.S. have machines that will take the chip cards (and some already do), the merchant has the option of having you use a pin or a signature. If the merchant does not have a reader that will accept a chip card you can just swipe it and sign as we've done for years. We also been told that the same thing applies in Europe. Note however, that unmanned kiosk in Europe will surely require a pin. That is what we have been told on several different occasions by a major US card issuer. But I'm not betting the farm on the validity of what we have been told.
Our real world experience with chip and pin cards is that we just swipe them and sign while in the U.S. Last fall in Europe at some merchants we entered a pin and at others we simply signed.
Unless mandatory use of a pin is required, a lost or stolen card might possibly still be used. Having the pin does, however, cut down or eliminate the possibility of someone making and using a duplicate card with your account information as happened to us once.
If anyone ever gets a really definitive answer please let us all know.

I'm with TC. Just yesterday my CC issued me a new card with a chip and I called with the same questions..is this a chip and PIN that will enable me to use it in Europe, and especially at unmanned kiosks. "I've heard about those..what is it?" she replied. I was told I would be sent a PIN, that it would "probably" work, never got a definitive answer, and tend to doubt that it will accomplish much to meet these same needs as yours. What the agent knew about chip and PIN made me feel informed, and I remain woefully confused. Her last words were, "Maybe the Europeans will switch to our system some day."

I got a chip and pin credit card from Andrews FCU a couple of years ago specifically for the Paris Metro automated ticket kiosks which do NOT accept non-chip cards (learned the hard way). Next trip I used my Andrews chip and pin and everything was fine...except it never asked me for a pin. I shoved the chip card in and it worked. I was buying large quantities of Carnets and after about 15 carnets over 2 days the kiosks wouldn't let me purchase anymore.

We've had chip and pin cards in Canada for years. You can also tap the chip to pay without using your pin. All of these cards also have a magnetic strip. When travelling in the US, the strip is used as no one seems to know what a chip is for. When travelling in Europe or Canada, I keep hold of my card (no one is to touch it), I put it in the machine, it asks for my pin, when 'approved' I take my card out and put it away. If for some reason my chip isn't working (happened recently to my mastercard so they sent a replacement), it will still work but not as a pin. It takes putting it in the machine, having it rejected as 'cannot read pin'. You do this generally three times in a row, then the machine will allow the card to be swiped. (if you otherwise try to swipe a chip and pin card here, the message comes up, must insert card and use chip). Once you swipe in those circumstances, you sign for it. What I did find interesting is that even though my chip was non functioning to be able to use my pin, my tap and go did still function. So until I had a replacement card, I could tap (and do nothing else), or I could swipe and sign once it was rejected three times by the machine.

You can also tap the chip to pay without using your pin

That's a completely separate chip that works independently of Chip&pin/signature. It's an RFID chip which goes under the trade name of paypass(mastercard) or wavepass (visa). The ultimate credit/debit card is one that has a chip&pin/signature chip , RFID chip, and magnetic strip without a foreign transaction fees.

The reason it's confusing and hard to get an answer is because every US card issuer will have a different system.

Most new US cards will be a chip & signature validation. That means the reader will detect the chip but you will still have to sign for validation.

Some US cards will issue a PIN as a secondary validation. So if you use the card in an automated machine, it will require the PIN for validation.

Some US cards will issue a PIN for cash withdrawls only. In that case, the PIN won't work for purchases at an automated machine.

And many US cards allow automatic validation for purchases under $50. So for small purchases, it might work even without a PIN.

So which card will you get? Good luck finding out as very few customer service representatives have any understanding of these complexities (even veteran posters here often get confused about it). And it is likely that each card issuer will tweak its validation protocols over time.

And more importantly, what will it mean for European travel? Very little. Just like with your magnetic strip card, you will still be able to use a chip card and validate with signature whenever you deal with a person directly. You may need to tell them "no PIN" and they just push a button on their machine to spit out a receipt for you to sign. And you may, or may not, be able to use it in an automated machine. The only real test is to try it and hope for the best but never count on it working. You should always ask for a PIN. Even if it doesn't work for purchases, it is good to have it as an emergency backup for cash advances.

Douglas's response is the most accurate. For what ever reason, card issuers in the US are reluctant to go full Chip and Pin. They say Americans find Pin numbers too hard to use, I think that due to the additional network requirements (read costly) to validate PIN numbers for millions of transactions a day, they prefer to stick with an unvalidated signature.

As for what you might have or get, if you receive a Chipped card and are asked to activate it without establishing a pin first...then it is likely a Chip and Signature like 90+% of the cards available. There are a few true Chip and Pin cards in the US, Andrews Credit Union is, if you qualify for membership; I have a Citi card that is issued by my business that is, and by searching you might find a few others. If you are given only the option to set up a PIN, then it is likely still a chip and signature, the PIN only for cash withdrawals at an ATM

If you have only a chip and signature, as a couple of my other cards are,it is still of value in Europe, it makes transactions easier, the readers work better, people recognize how to use it, and the printer simply spits out a receipt for you to sign. It may work in some kiosks (mine did in the London Tube) but not in most.

If you are lucky enough to have a true chip and pin, you may still be confused in Europe; as I mentioned, I have one for business, my experience was that sometimes I was asked for a signature, sometimes for a PIN. This was due to the combination of the CVM (card validation method) set by the issuer and the terminal I tried to use it at. Nearly all Chip and PIN cards in the US still list signature as the primary CVM, then maybe followed by online PIN, offline PIN, then maybe "No Validation". So if the terminal will accept a signature, I signed, if not, I had to use a PIN, for low dollar transactions, it required neither signature or PIN.

Recently got back from a ten day trip to France, and Holland with my old-fashioned magnetic strip credit and debit cards. In total I used these cards to make purchases over thirty times at merchants big and small and not once were they refused. It wouldn't work at automated machines but for purchases at stores/restaurants, zero problems. So don't stress too much about having older cards.

I have a chip and signature card with Citibank and I have been pestering them about the chip and pin issue for 2 years. I want the chip and pin only for the train station issue- it is nice to be able to skip the lines and use the automatic machine without having to get cash first, especially if it is a more expensive ticket. I have yet to talk to a customer service rep that understands the issue- the response I always get "but you don't need a pin to use the card."

Finally, the option has come up that I can request a pin. I will just have to test it and home it works.

I tried to find the reference but must have thrown it out. Earlier this month in the monthly Costco magazine for members there was an article describing the changes coming with the chip and pin card. As I remember the change over had to be completed by Oct, 2015. That is what I was looking to confirm. The technology is the same as being currently used in Europe.

David,

You've already received many helpful explanations.

I recently traveled to Italy & used a chip & signature card to purchase train tickets from automated machines without any issues.
Before my trip I called my bank & requested a PIN for this cc but didn't need to use it.

My cc card is a visa 'Marriott Rewards' card by Chase bank. This card does not charge international exchange fees.

I usually pay cash for most of my purchases so always take 2 debit cards with me.

Thanks all. Someone noted that I had gotten "many helpful explanations." I'd amend that to say I have gotten "many explanations." I'm not too worried, as I believe my regular old swipe card will work wherever I can sign instead of input a PIN, which is most places, except for automated.

I was mainly trying to get some clarity on the issue, which is impossible. I find it odd that the US credit card issuers don't just go over to the same system which the rest of the world is using, instead of coming up with a different version, the Chip-and-signature card. Just seems confusing. I use my debit card all the time with a PIN, so I can't see why people can't do the same for a credit card. It makes us Americans just seem dumb or entitled.

Finally found the article I referenced earlier. Just adds to the confusion since it is somewhat at odds with some prior comments.

Costco Magazine, Spring 2015 (quote)

By October 2015 restaurants and other merchants will be subject to the new Europay, Mastercard, and Visa (EMV) standards, which is a shift from magnetic-stripe credit card to Chip/Smart/EMV cards like the ones used in Europe. ........ requires insertion of the card into a terminal throughout the entire transaction. The US is the last country to adopt this standard.

Sounds like a true chip and pin with no reference to signature.

To add to the information posted by Frank in the previous reply, I vaguely recall that U.S. banks were told that unless they adopted the EMV standards, they would be covering any losses due to credit card fraud. That was probably just the motivation they needed to get moving on this issue. It's hard to understand the reluctance to adopt EMV cards, but thankfully it looks like this is finally happening.

My understanding is that the fraud loss is shifting from the card issuer to the merchant. Puts a lot of pressure on the merchant to make sure the card is good. A lot of people made an issue of using the signature or no signature on credit card purchases. In our area when the signature is required has drifted in some place to no signature under a $100, others under $50, $25. And the signature never had any value unless the charge was disputed. It was only then that the signature came into play. When the merchant has to eat the bad card, security will get tighter.

The October deadline is for merchants to have EMV (or chip) card readers or they will be on the hook for fraudulent charges.

The card readers have been installed in many locations and have a slot at the bottom that you insert the card (most people are still swiping their old magnetic strip cards down the side). Once the card is inserted and the chip is read, it will prompt you for a signature (just like you sign electronically now on the terminals). If you DID get a chip & PIN card, it would prompt you for the PIN.

I think many people will still find merchants and vendors using the old swipe readers even after October. They won't be outlawed or anything, it's just that the merchant will be taking on the financial liability if the purchase was done fraudulently. So those merchants, who either don't want to or can't afford to pay for the upgraded machines, may well take extra steps to verify such as checking ID. It'll be mostly small shops, not the major national chain retailers.

What isn't clear to me is what happens when granny gets her new EMV card but still swipes it the old fashioned way? Will the merchant be on the hook if granny is really her neighbor at the retirement home and stole the card from her purse to make a big splurge at Costco?

All of POS terminals here are equipped both with the slot at the bottom for chip cards as well as a swipe reader at the side for the old fashioned magnetic stripe cards. From what I've observed, almost nobody uses the swipe part and even "grannies" use the chip reader. Everyone seemed to adopt the new system very quickly when it was introduced.

So is there a guaranteed chip and PIN we can get here in the US that can be used in automated kiosks in Europe? I ask because after a long day of walking and sightseeing in London I promised my boys bike rides through Kensington Park only to be foiled by a bike rental system that did not accept a magnetic card nor cash. It was highly disappointing for the 11 year old who needed that decompression time. We found an extra bike and took turns so all was not lost but I was a bit frustrated too.

Is there a bank offering a card that you know will work in unmanned kiosks in Europe?

Andrews Federal Credit Union. http://www.andrewsfcu.org/personal/loans-and-credit/credit-cards.html

Kristen, I have been told that the US State Department Credit Union also issues "true" Chip and PIN cards. This makes sense since many state dept. people live and work overseas. I know that US Bank issues a Chip card of some type, though I'm not sure if its Pin or signature.

As I mentioned before, it's a darn shame that US banks and card issuers won't get on board with the rest of the world and just issue the Chip and PIN cards, and not mess with Chip and Signature. They are just throwing a wrench into the works. Add to this the fact that many bank customer service people have no clue how to address this issue, it's no wonder there are so many different answers to this query.

I have a friend who works with a local transit agency on their payment system. He told me today that they can't even get software written to accept Chip cards because no one can agree what the standard should be, even though the rest of the world seems to have adopted a standard which works.

Here is a list of some cards
http://milecards.com/6084/3-full-chip-pin-credit-cards-with-no-fees/

Didn't someone also mention in a recent post about getting a Southwest card?

According to my Chase branch, chip-enhanced United Mileage Plus Explorer cards will be issued "next month". I got a replacement card in April (accidental destruction) which was in the chip card format of name and number on the back -- but NO chip. Card works in the US with magnetic strip. Hoping for new chip cards soon!

We too just returned from a long trip through London, France, Belgium and Netherlands.
Our old-fashioned CapOne credit card worked fine for swipe purchases in all countries, purchases that involved a human working the card reader. And almost always caused raised eyebrows over the US failure to get with the program.

Our Schwab chip ATM card, which clearly has a PIN, worked fine for retrieving the French rail tickets we had pre-purchased with it, and it did not require us to put in the PIN to retrieve, same for buying rail tickets from machines in Belgium and France (although for some reason it double charged a transaction for tickets from Caen to Bayeux, which is being disputed). However, it would not work for buying Netherlands rail tickets from machines (although it did work for the Breskens-Vlissingen ferry), transaction would not finalize. I was told at Boogaard's that this was likely due to it being VISA-branded and that the Netherlands NL Rail machines wanted to see Maestro/Mastercard. Needless to say, the CapOne ATM card or credit card could not get that far on their machines.
Both the Scwab ATM card and our CapOne ATM card had no problems at ATMs.

Just today Chase reissued and sent new Chase Freedom Visa cards which are chipped, but not PIN'd.

I just came across this article which I thought might be of interest in this thread.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/04/30/your-new-credit-card-may-not-be-as-safe-as-you-think/?tid=hpModule_79c38dfc-8691-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394&hpid=z14

"...over the US failure to get with the program." A valid point. True, the US technology here with our magnetic stripe credit card is 25 years old, the early '90s? To get with the program, I wouldn't bet on it, would be surprised if/when the US change over to the chip and pin.

So is there a guaranteed chip and PIN we can get here in the US that can be used in automated kiosks in Europe?

No, even with true chip and PIN there is no guarantee that your card will be accepted at an unmanned kiosk like a fuel service pump or toll booth. I have heard that European-issued cards also fail sometimes.