CNN: destinations to avoid

Can you provide a link? I would like to read it.

From what I have read elsewhere, Barcelona and Venice in particular are places where the locals would like to pull up the "Welcome" mat. But it is mainly cruise ship passengers that are causing the problem, along with "by owner" rentals of apartments needed for housing locals.

People who stay in hotels, dine in restaurants, and pay to enter the sites are contributing to the local economy. As long as they behave themselves, they should still feel welcome.

Here is link to article on CNN.com 12 destinations to avoid

Sad but true. I am starting to be reluctant to mention my favorite places for fear they will be inundated as people search for less-crowded destinations.

Whoops. The writer is suggesting Annecy as an alternative to Venice. Wonder what time of year he visited Annecy? True, it doesn't have mega-ships visiting, but the historic core was very heavily visited on the June weekday I was there last year.

Of the places in Europe listed by CNN, I am only interested in seeing 1. Venice and 2. Isle of Skye/Scotland. Not interested in CT, Barcelona, and above all, what CNN has to say on visiting sites in Europe.

I just read this article and sad to say, we already have reservations in Venice and Cinque Terre In early May. I have been researching this trip for months and have become fully aware of the cruise ship factor in both places. On one of our days in Venice a cruise ship with 5000 passengers will be sending them to an area that is not prepared to handle such masses of humanity. On one blog, I saw a picture of the congestion on the train platform and ferry dock in the Cinque Terre. It was elbow to elbow! All due to a couple of cruise ships in port at La Spezia. At some point these destinations will have to address this issue with the cruise ship industry. Until then, those of us who hope to see our bucket list spots without fighting hordes of cruise ship day strippers will have to enjoy the early mornings and evenings once they return to the ships.

Ha Ha! That should read "day trippers" not day strippers. That would really draw a crowd!!

Barb, you can edit that you know. Just click on the edit button beneath your number of posts.

Those pictures of elbow to elbow people can be deceiving. That's probably the worst it can get. Last May, I returned to both Venice and the Cinque Terre some years after my first visits. I guess I got lucky this time - neither seemed exceptionally crowded. Didn't check cruise ship schedules to see if I just hit days without ships docked.

I would say that one can avoid the crowds in Venice somewhat by doing some research as to where to go where there aren't so many tourists. The "main drag" between the train station, Rialto ("Strada Nuova") and from there to San Marco is all very busy and touristy much of the day. I wouldn't want to stay near Rialto or San Marco myself.

Try to explore Venice in the morning and the evening when most of the tour groups have departed. Save the daytime for museums or day trips. I know it's a vacation, but try to get up early in Venice at least one morning and walk - it's soooo much different in the morning: shop keepers are out sweeping in front of their shops, parents are walking their kids to school, people are carrying supplies in from the boats, etc. Last visit, I did a morning walk from the train station to Rialto but instead of walking along Strada Nuova, I walked on the south side of the grand canal, through the San Polo area, weaving my way through quiet courtyards and narrow streets, with few tourists to be seen. It's easy to find your way to Rialto - just follow the signs "per Rialto" you see up on the buildings. I suspect people who think Venice is mobbed everywhere and all the time would have a very different impression of Venice had they taken this same walk.

The Cinque Terre is lovely, but it's not the only great area of the riviera, which is dotted with lovely towns and other hiking opportunities. There is regular train service up and down the riviera, so it's easy to day trip by train in and out of towns. You wouldn't even have to stay in the Cinque Terre - you could day trip to a few towns and hike between a town or two and take off if it feels too crowded. Last May I spent three nights in Camogli about an hour north by train from the CT and it was quiet and not touristy, a sharp contrast to the CT towns. I did a hike in the area where I saw few others on the trail for an hour or more at a time.

I have never been on a cruise ship, but I think cruise ship passengers get a disproportionate amount of the blame for overcrowding. I have certainly not seen or heard any evidence that they are any more unruly than anyone else. I will admit that they do arrive in very large numbers, but I think they seem to give all the rest of us an excuse to pretend that we are not part of the problem. I would have thought that all tourists distort the local economy of small places like Dubrovnik and Venice regardless of how they arrive. And I do not exclude my own contribution to that. In the case of Venice, it is the people who stay on the island who make it unaffordable for locals to live there. The cruise ship passengers cannot be blamed for that.

Interestingly enough there was a report on the BBC today BBC report
about a group of four Japanese students who were charged $1100 for a meal at a restaurant near St Marks in Venice. Outrage over this tourist-gouging prompted the Mayor to promise an investigation and punishment of the owners. A spokesperson pointed out that in that area of Venice, only 1.1% of the restaurants are locally-owned; only 50% of restaurants in the core of Venice. The restaurant in question was Chinese-owned.

I think thats the kind of economic distortion that tourism, and in Venice's case, cruise ship tourism brings. The spokesmen mentioned an attitude of residents not feeling badly over making the most out of those people who will only be in their city for a few hours.

I've done several Caribbean cruises and think they're a great, relaxing way to travel. But I've seen the ugliness that the crowds bring onshore with them, overwhelming the locals in the search for souvenirs and "authentic (but not too authentic)" food and drink, with no real interest in the culture. I imagine people on European cruises are much the same.

But I've seen the ugliness that the crowds bring onshore with them, overwhelming the locals in the search for souvenirs and "authentic (but not too authentic)" food and drink, with no real interest in the culture.

Stan, I tend to agree with this statement. I've taken several cruises myself (although not to Europe) and have seen it too. I don't want to generalize too much but I think a high percentage, maybe as many as 75%, of cruise ship passengers are there for the cruise experience and the port stops are pretty much just icing on the cake - although this is probably more true for the Caribbean than European cruises. But that still doesn't give them any less right to be there. And advising independent travelers to avoid these locations just leaves them to the cruise ship passengers and the tour buses.

Whether we go to a place by train, car, bus tour, or cruise ship, in a group or individually, we're all part of the problem and no one group deserves the blame more than others. If you want to blame the cruise companies that's fine, but they're going to these places and the cruisers have as much right to see their 'bucket-list' places as any of us.

It's a growing problem and finding a solution is an ongoing effort. Governments walk a fine line between wanting (or needing) the income that increasing tourism brings and the problems that go with same.

The truth in these is that some places feel overrun at certain times of year. Rather than give up on them, try to see them outside of the highest part of tourist season.

I loved Venice in October but I don't think I'd like it as much in summer. A friend went for Carnival and said he was wedged into a group that slowly moved up one street then down another all evening. He said if he went back, he would get a ball ticket just to get off the street.

Same with Cinque Terra, in mid October there is no need to get reservations and the weather is nice. The downside is the restaurants want to close early or aren't open at all and the streets roll up in the evening.

I enjoyed Barcelona in April, which was pretty busy. I don't think I'd want to be there if it was busier.

I think the idea that cruise ships ruin every place is a bit overstated. According to this article Venice sees ~500 cruise ships per year, even the largest ships are around 5,000 passengers. That's 2.5 million vs. the 30 million that Venice sees every year according to CNN.

More significant might be the increasing affluence, and hence ability to travel, of those from Eastern Europe and Asia. Also Americans who might be inclined to travel, and have the means to do so, may have even more means over the past few years.

All the more reason to seek out places that are not loved too much. Also, more incentive to travel shoulder or off-season. And to visit smaller towns and get out in the country.

The European budget airlines are a huge factor, I'm sure. They have opened up practically all of Europe to an influx of visitors by making quickie, cheap trips possible from just about anywhere else on the continent.

The main problem is commercial interest. Living in the internet area these places are become extremely accessible, you can book and look around behind your computer screen from any place on the planet. Further cheap flights, cheap accommodation and well organized marketing results in a massive global attention. With that huge commercial interest arrives seeing these places as ideal hot spots of investment, companies buy real estate to sell it later with a profit or houses are turned into hotels and appartments, so prices are going extremely up. As a result houses become more and more out of the financial reach of the average local and are forced to look somewhere else for housing. Local gouvernments are put under pressure or some are very happy to cooperate with investors.

Locals are those making a place livable, but if the local community has to step aside for financial gain that livability is put under pressure especially when everything is pushed to or over the limit happening nowadays. Very understandable the local gets the feeling that tourism has taken possession of their habitat, they have to face it every day. No wonder there are protests.

Cruise ships are part of the problem, but with there high profile presence guess easy to see as the symbol of it.

I was also in Venice and the Cinque Terre last May and will be back to both places this May. They were crowded. Let's face it, the places we want to go are the same places most tourists want to go.

While I don't know what it will do in regards to crowding but starting in 2021, large cruise ships will no longer be able to dock in Venice but will have to dock on the mainland. Passengers will then be shuttled over to Venice itself.

From Venice and Barcelona to the Galapagos Islands and even the Taj
Mahal, here are the places conscious tourists might want to think
twice about visiting in 2018.

How does this Joe Minihane of CNN actually decipher between the conscious and the unconscious? LOL After reading this article, I would have to agree that the conscious traveler wouldn't DREAM of urinating in the streets.

Cinque Terre is a victim of the Rick Steves effect. His own PBS program in which he recommends traveling to what was then a gem of an alternative to the Positano area is now ruined by millions of tourists. I wonder if this is the fate of Hallstatt.

I wonder how crowded these 'must avoid' places get in the off season. No one at CNN thought to recommend Americans open their minds to traveling in the early spring for example instead of deciding that only in summer can you take a vacation?

Bottom line, one can't blame the locals for being sickened by mobs of tourists, some of whom aren't respectful human beings.

It is the local businesses and their employees whose livelihoods ARE these millions who will suffer because today's tourist mobs are louts.

Lots of great comments here.
Yes, these places are crowded in peak times. Some are still crowded in non-peak times. However, there is a reason they are crowded. They are crowded because they are awesome places to visit.

We usually go to Europe these days in either April-May or September-October and find less crowded venues. However, don't miss the wonderful places because they are crowded, just plan your trip better. You may need to wake up early to beat the rush or pay for a skip the line ticket, but these places are likely to be crowded in the future, so don't skip them.

I think it was Oscar Wilde that said that we always destroy the thing we love the most.

Kabul not even on the list. SMH

I agree with those who caution against blaming cruisers for the ills of places like Venice and Barcelona. Tourism in and of itself can't help but sometimes have negative side effects on the destinations, whether from those of us who like to cruise, or go through the "back door." Part of being human I suppose. I guess we have to ultimately decide whether we just want to hang out on this forum all the time or get out there and be part of the problem. Just call me a problem child.

It is the Venetians themselves who blame cruise ships for their troubles. I just happen to agree with them.

The cruise ships bring in 5000 to 10000 people ( often more) into the city for one day. They disgorge the passengers who then clog the streets following their umbrella -lifting guide to the major sites. In late afternoon they queue up along the sidewalk in front of St. Marks to await transport back to their ship., which will then set sail for the next port while passengers dine and then sleep aboard. They block the area and make it difficult to pass. Then when they have reboarded, the ship cruises down the Giudecca Canal, totally blocking our the view from either side.

The average cruise ship passenger spends €15 or less while in the city ( No, I cannot provide a link but it was from an article in the Guardian sometime in 2014). That is not contributing to the local economy at all.

The average "independent" Traveler probably spends €600 or more over a three-day visit for hotel, meals, and activities. That is a significant contribution. So even if these people contribute to the crowding in the city, they are "giving back" and helping the locals, most of whom work in the tourism industry ( unless they are already wealthy).

Yes the cruise ships pay port fees, but unfortunately most ofmthat gets pocketed by the Port authorities; it does not make its way into the hands of the local residents.

I have nothing against cruise ships per se, but they are wholly inappropriate to Venice and some other Mediterranean ports. On the other hand, they are a fine way to see Alaska, at least the southeast part. And the Caribbean, South Pacific, etc.

This is a link to an article about proposed changes to tourism in Venice.

https://www.thelocal.it/20170602/venice-ban-new-hotels-bandb-from-opening-in-historic-centre-travel-tourism

I am aware of the protest movement against cruise ships, but this article also details a proposal to ban the building of new hotels. So whilst it is true that a number of Venetians object to cruise ships, that is not all that they object to.

I have been to Venice several times, including twice for cruises.
Yes it was more crowded the days when the cruise ships were in port.

Still, getting around the city was not problematic. The lines going into St. Mark's were longer, but we had already seen St. Mark's, so it wasn't a problem for us.

We talked with a local Venetian, who told us the population of the city was now half of what it once was. Apparently, it is expensive living there, since it costs to bring things over to the city. Still, it is a special place that is unique in the World and has an incredible history. The city was founded at the end of the Roman Empire when the Huns were rampaging in the 4th century and people moved to islands off the coast and then developed the islands and marshes by filling them creating more land, driving piles into the ground as foundations for buildings. The Venetian Republic endured the Dark and Middle Ages and survived until being destroyed by Napolean. During its time it helped save Europe from the Ottoman conquest.

It is an amazing place, even with many tourists.

Just some context here about what the cruise industry brings to Venice. Sasha has it off by quite a bit:

Sasha wrote:
"The average cruise ship passenger spends €15 or less while in the city ( No, I cannot provide a link but it was from an article in the Guardian sometime in 2014). That is not contributing to the local economy at all."

Here are the facts From CLIA from a conference in Venice:
"The cruise industry employs nearly 4,300 people and provides business for 200 companies in and around Venice. Ships arriving in Venice generate a total of € 436.6 million annually at a national level, in terms of direct expenditure by passengers, companies and crews. Of this total, € 283.6 million are spent in Venice and in its territory and € 153 million are spent across Italy"

But there is another twist to this: Italy is the single largest builder of cruise ships in Europe:

"The most important of these is cruise ship construction in which the European industry has been the world leader for nearly 50 years. All but two of the oceanic cruise ships currently under construction through the end of 2018 are being built in
European yards." (most of them in Italy)... CLIA Report on the state of the Cruise Industry 2015.

it is clear then that Italy and Venice benefit mightily from the cruise industry from the bottom up. This is a bit of having your cake and eating it too. I despair for Venice but this is an ITALIAN choice that has been made. They are the ones who approve of how many landings and debarkations take place in their cities.

Now I have been going to Venice since the 80's and even then it was basically a "Historic Disneyland" of sorts. Almost artificial as a real city. People are leaving Venice for sure. But how much is economic (the cost of living?) How much is just too much tourist traffic? If they have a bone to pick it is with their city leaders. there are just certain places on this earth Like Bali, Venice, Florence and some others that are so wonderful they have for many years attracted thousand and they will continue to.

As to the CNN article I would say this: CNN is not my go-to source for reliable travel information. I would take this with a grain of salt.

You might want to read this press release by CLIA about what cruise lines are doing to mitigate their effect on Venice:
https://www.cliaeurope.eu/~cliaeurope/images/CLIA_-_The_cruise_industry_and_Venice._Facts_and_prospects_Sept_2017.pdf

In the meantime Visit Venice in the off season it's atmospheric and wonderful at Christmas.
.

CNN is not my go-to source for reliable travel information. I would take this with a grain of salt

I somewhat agree with that statement, which is why I never rely on just one source for travel information. However, I have a feeling that any articles or press releases by CLIA are not all that likely to be unbiased. In fact I would question any industry reports concerning their own industry. I'm just a skeptic at heart.

If Venice really gets 30 million visitors a year, and each visitor stays two days, that would be 60M visitor-days or 164,000 average per day. Any way you slice it, the cruise ship portion of that is small, the math just does not work out any other way. I don't have the statistics to prove it, but I'll bet the average footprint on time in the city is less than land travelers, too. Cruise ships may dock for a day or two, but land travelers would tend to stay two to three days, some even more. They are also in town all day where cruise chip passengers return to the ship for dinner, or may not venture out until after lunch. Even if all you do is buy a vaporetto pass, these are pretty expensive. I think we paid $70 for the two of use for a two day pass back in 2011. My wife and I have visited Venice both on land and on a cruise. I prefer on land, but as part of a cruise that goes other places that are hard to get to, visiting on a cruise was not bad.

A good resource to figure out how many cruise passengers will be in port on a given day is www.cruisemapper.com. Looking at May 2018, I see some days with as many as eight ships in port at a time but most are much smaller than the 5,000 or so that the biggest ships carry these days. Weekends seem to be the worst, probably because Venice is popular port for starting or ending cruises. I count 13,948 cruise passengers on Saturday May 19, choosing the higher end of the range for each of the eight ships in port. Friday May 11 has one ship with 264 passengers maximum, to keep things in perspective. Pretty easy to avoid the heaviest days of cruise people.

I think the theory that low cost airlines has increased travel numbers is a good one. New travelers are all the more likely to head to the most iconic cities, too. (I personally traveled to Rome there times before I ever made it to Budapest). If you make it easier or cheaper for new people to become tourists, they are naturally going to flock first to the most recognizable places.

So aathurperry quotes, CLIA, and who is that? The Cruise Line International Association, a trade group lobby organization. So do you trust that? The numbers quoted reflect what they spent, perhaps, but not what actually benefited the people of Venice. There is no doubt that huge sums of money are spent by the cruise ship industry, but how much actually reaches the people instead of the politicians?

He says that the decision has been made by Italy and that Italy benefits because of cruise ship manufacture. But if the people of Venice object, does not that count? They DO NOT want the cruise ships and have expressed that many times. Why not respect that?

I am sorry I cannot provide a link to my 15 euro comment but I will keep looking. I am sure it was from an article in the Guardian, which I respect more than CNN in any case. And a whole lot more that “CLIA” with its self-serving numbers.

Hello All,
I loved reading all your comments!! Very detailed. I would like to hear what Rick Steve's opinion is on this article. I am new to the forum, but I have watched Rick for many years. Does he comment on topics on this forum? Thanks

Someone mentioned the ease of using the internet to make travel plans as one of the reasons for overcrowding in tourist places, and I think that social media plays a big part too. I follow a lot of full time travelers on Instagram, because I love photography and travel and their work inspires me. But it also inspires millions of other people to travel to places they normally wouldn't. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but tourist locations hire these Instagrammers to promote their locations, and are continuing to push advertising even when they are already overwhelmed with crowds. For instance, many of the National Parks in the US have been writing about problems maintaining their environment due to crowds because of destruction of trails, people going off trail, littering, etc; as well as just problems with traffic, parking, etc. Many people have been reporting that this is diminishing the beauty and natural experience of the parks. But while the park service has been complaining about this, they have also been running extensive social media campaigns to promote visitation. I see this in many places that claim to be overwhelmed by tourists. So then it seems like what is best for a place is at war with making money for that place, even by the people who work there and live there.
So it seems to me a strange world in which tourist attractions work hard to promote themselves, and then later complain about being overrun by tourists. Kind of confusing, in my opinion. I do understand this, to some extent, as I live in a state that makes a significant amount of income off of tourism. Our residents love that we have low property taxes and no income tax, but at the same time complain constantly about the "snowbirds" and tourists that crowd the roads and the stores and the sites, the very people that make it possible. Seems human nature is to want all of the benefit and none of the inconvenience.

Yes I did quote CLIA. Simply because they are the ones that keep the data on numbers and spending. My main point was to debunk the absurd contention that each cruise tourist spends only €15 on average. Also if you took the time to read the document at the link I provided CLIA lays out in detail the great lengths all the cruise lines are going to to re think how they deal with the problems of Venice.CLIA and the cruise industry has NO interest in ruining Venice. It's not in their own best interest.

Therefore in this situation I think the citing of CLIA numbers and what they are doing to changing how they approach Venice is reliable.

And I agree with the writer who argues that the non cruise tourists outnumber the Cruise based ones. But they dont all land in one place at one time and thus are not as easily targeted for the local dissatisfaction.

Tamara – Striking example in the Netherlands. Little cute Giethoorn was some years ago “discovered” by a young Chinese woman and enthusiastically shown on social media. Now it is one of the hotspots for Chinese tourists in my country and with that investors start showing interest buying houses. Luckely the tourists are disciplined so guess the locals can live with it, but there is worry about that commercial interest among them and the government too as it can easily disrupt the village community there. Internet is the way to trigger that massive amount of attention so easily.

There is indeed some controverse. Not so long ago in the pre internet period I liked to promote (for me nearby) Bruges but with such an overwelming number of visitors nowadays the place has lost it’s innocence, so I have changed my mind and are more carefull about that. Think many are taken by surprise of the succes of it’s popularity due to internet and movies too.

Yes I did read your article and the big numbers are impressive but they do not bring it down to a human or local level, separating out what lines the pockets of the bureaucrats from what actually benefits the shopkeepers, restaurant owners and other Venetians.

Here is a more detailed 2015 report by your same CLIA group:

http://www.cruising.org/docs/default-source/market-research/2015-europe-economic-impact-study.pdf?sfvrsn=0

See p.4 where it says the average spend in a port on a day visit is €62 per passenger and €23 per crew member (crew members count as day visitors too). Yes that is more than the €15 I saw reported by the Guardian for 2013 but still much less than an independent traveler who comes to spend several days would spend on hotels, meals, entertainment, museums, etc.

And I will bet that most of the cruise ship passenger's expenditure is for cheap foreign-made goods like masks and trinkets. Nothing to benefit the local craftspeople and artisans.

The Guardian calls it "grab and go tourism" in this more recent article about the possibility of Venice losing UNESCO World Heritage status because of the cruise ships:

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/may/26/venice-tourists-cruise-ships-pollution-italy-biennale

"And I will bet most of the cruise passengers' expenditure is for cheap foreign-made goods like masks and trinkets."

Yes, it is well known that cruise passengers have absolutely no taste and love to buy cheap foreign-made trinkets. I know I do.

Norma, I certainly do not mean to offend. But the reality is you cannot buy any genuine Venetian handmade products for €62, unless it is a small piece of glass jewelry or glass ornament. Since that figure is an “average”, then some people like you are indeed spending more on genuine hand-made local products, but then to balance the average the majority of people must be spending far less, on things like imported factory-made glass and fake masks.

Besides, most passengers (not you) simply sign up for the shore tour and follow the guide to the major sights. They do not have time to wander the back lanes and seek out the small shops where the local handemade products are sold, unless the skip the shore excursion and opt for that. How many passengers do that?

The shops around San Marco may offer some genuine articles, but at very high prices to cover their overhead. Nice to see in the windows, but one must verify the authenticity carefully.

Well, if the object is to get cruise passengers to spend more money while in Venice, I suggest a campaign be mounted to get the merchants in Venice to offer only genuine “made in Italy” goods, the high quality, high priced stuff, and thus the foreign-made crap would not be available. Surely that will help make cruise passengers more welcome. Do you think the merchants would comply?

A friend of mine says the three most expensive words in the English language are “Made in Italy”.

Oh I'm sure there's no bias in the numbers provided by an industry lobby association!! (How absurd! Obviously people who are paid by the cruise companies do everything in their power to paint the cruise companies in the best possible light - as is their job, since that's what they signed up for. But whether the figures are reliable or believable is a whole different matter!!)

For such a group of liberal-minded people, I’m kind of appalled by some of the comments here.

So the consensus is, if you arrive by train, car, or plane you deserve to be there, and you add nothing to the disruption of the local life because you’re there to absorb the culture, but those that travel by cruise ship are second class citizens who have no right to visit the cities of Europe because they’re just trashy, only want to tour the hotspots, eat and drink.

You’re just so superior to them.

Quote: “And I will bet that most of the cruise ship passenger's expenditure is for cheap foreign-made goods like masks and trinkets. Nothing to benefit the local craftspeople and artisans.”

Wow!!! What’s the weather like up there on your high horse?

I don’t travel Europe by cruise ship but I do purchase a couple of dozen fridge magnets every trip. They ARE cheap. That’s insulting to all of us who buy them. Also postcards and key chains. Now I have to find a safe place to curl up in with a kitty and some cocoa.

I’ve been triggered.

The reality is that all tourism has some sort of impact, regardless of how you travel to a place. I do not think that any mode of transport is an absolute wrong, though some do have more impact than others, and they all have different impacts. Here in Australia I saw an interesting story about how some natural attractions in Tasmania have become more popular thanks to Instagram. These are certainly not mega famous sights, and I admit I had not heard of them until this week. In this case it is about the impact of increased foot traffic. The story is below.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-22/instagram-trophy-hunters-beating-destructive-path-in-tassie/9344444

I see I caused an unnecessary distraction from the issues with the word "trinket." I will withdraw it.

It is not about buying trinkets, it is about responsible tourism, contributing to the local economy, and learning about and appreciating their way of life.

The Venetians have been protesting the cruise ships for at least the past five years, trying to get them banned. They are not welcome. But money talks, and the powers that be favor the cruise ships over the local residents.

Elaine, what should someone getting off a cruise ship say to the Venetians protesting that cruise ship? Should he or she assert your right to travel where they please, by what means they choose, regardless of how the locals feel about it?

I remain to be convinced that the average tourist is interested in”responsible tourism, contributing to the local economy and learning to appreciate their way of life”. If only it were so. How often do we see on these very boards references to having “done Italy” or having “done” Paris, and these are not cruise passengers using this term, they are ones planning their own itineraries.

At any rate, not to belabour the point, cruises are here to stay, complain though one may. I can assure you some very fine people do enjoy a cruise from time to time and some spend a lot of money in ports. Not me, though ..... I busy myself with learning about the local way of life.

This attitude of demeaning cruise passengers is not really very appropriate. We are all travelers and I tire of the endlessly snobbish "MY kind of tourism makes me a TRAVELLER and yours makes you a crass TOURIST bringing economic and cultural destruction" This is absurd.

I think it's interesting this rather snobbish attitude by some about what people buy and who that income benefits. What I hear coming through loud and clear is a sadly uninformed basic knowledge of economics.

The shops in Venice are more than likely owned by Venetians (Not the Chinese or Taiwanese who actually make the "Fake" or more properly replica masks) so the income from the sales goes directly into the VENETIAN economy.The same as that that buys the expensive "Craft" objects.

While I would agree that buying a handmade craft object might be preferable to a mass produced item it's the market that is deciding this.

Portraying all cruise passengers as mindless sheep following their tour guides, mouths agape in stunned attention is pure bunk. The vast majority of shore excursions allow for time to shop and eat and wander and a good percentage of Passengers don't take the Guided shore excursions and just wander on their own.

About CLIA. Yes it does certainly have the Cruise Lines interests at heart. That is it's job. However ask yourself this question; How would it benefit the cruise industry to kill off one of it's prime Golden Geese? (Venice) It doesnt and they know that, And what motivation would they have to enlarge the numbers of passengers? None. In fact giving out lesser numbers would actually serve their interests better allowing them to claim their impact isn't as great as people claim.

Therefore I have confidence in their numbers. Especially as those self same numbers are often used against them by organizations actively trying to limit Cruise Ship landings from Alaska to Venice.

And while those ships are in port they are paying, in Euros, to refuel, take on truckloads of food, wine and drink, and replenish other consumables. They also pay very hefty fees to hook up to shore power, dock and pay for Pilots. Millions of Euros are spent each season on these things that passengers never see. This money goes directly into the Local economy keeping business thriving and people employed.

Venice has much more to fear from Climate Change and rising water than from Cruise Ship arrivals. And in fact it will be that rising water that will finally kill off the cruise arrivals and land too. then the Venetians will look back on this time as a Golden Age.

Actually think the above is a good summary. The cruises ships are not the devil.

No, not the devil. I have nothing against cruise ships per se. Or the people who use them. Just against cruise ships in Venice. They are the biggest single factor in the overcrowding in Venice.

This 2017 Guardian article says they sometimes dump 44,000 people into the city for the day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/23/venice-tempers-boil-over-tourist-high-season

That is way up from the 30,000 cited in this 2016 Forbes article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2016/09/29/venice-is-fed-up-with-cruise-ships-and-angry-protesters-are-blocking-them/#560eed753f61

I believe Venetians should have the right to control their city and its fate. They want to ban the cruise ships. They do not ask to close the hotels and exclude tourist who visit that way.* Doesn't that tell you something? It is not "elitist" to support this view. Cruise ship passengers have many other good options they can visit around the Mediterranean, and the rest of the world. Why insist on visiting Venice by ship for a few hoirs when it causes so much resentment from the locals?

If you are passionate about visiting Venice, then plan a visit on your own. Stay in a hotel or B and B, meet some people, wander the back streets off the tourist path to find a good restaurant. You will enjoy it a lot more, and you won't be "part of the problem."

*The vacation rental apartments have been mentioned as part of the problem too, not so much in the overcrowding, but by driving up housing prices beyond the reach of local families.

With all due respect Sasha, it is precisely the Venetians who do control the number of Cruise ships that dock at the port. The Port Authority has control of this. If Venetians want it changed they need to make noise to their government.

My guess is that the wealthy and long time business interests of VENICE WANT the number of cruise ships that are coming. Though if you read the Press release from CLIA you would have noted that the government and the cruise lines are working together to mitigate the ill effects and to lower the number of ships and to have them dock in a different place.

I think the place to look for how Venetians feel about this issue is not the Guardian but Il Gazzettino or La Nuova Venezia

Cruise lines do not just decide on their own where to stop and when. There is a lot that goes in to that decision and a lot of coordination with the local port, the National authorities, suppliers and city services for security and other things.

I think people often rush to judgement on issues like this where what goes on in the background is not well understood by the general public.

People should be able to travel the way they want and feel most comfortable without derision and sniping from those of us who travel differently. It is after all their money and choice. As a group of people who all appreciate visiting other places, regardless of the mode of transport, we should all exercise a degree of tolerance missing in some of these posts.

As someone who loves Venice very much, and has spent a lot of time there, I have to weigh in.

I would say the above poster has a rather naive view of Italian politics. The Port Authorty does not represent the wishes of the residents of Venice. Nor do the Italian politicians in Rome. The Venetians have expressed themselves with demonstrations many times. When they are not demonstrating, the ""No Big Ships" people set up tables at local festivals to distribute information to anyone who will stop and talk to them.

As for the newspapers mentioned above, here is an article in La Nuova Veneziana from last July:

http://weareherevenice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IMG_6951.jpg

And here is a summary in English:

http://weareherevenice.org/stop-it-now/

The headline quotes "Big Ships are Like Monsters" and says " Now save the lagoon." The painting is titled Stop the Madness.

It would be nice, since the only time I have visited Venice was 30 years ago, that when I do get there (however I choose to get there) then it will not be overrun with tourists, which sorta spoils it for everyone. Perhaps limiting the number of cruise ships would be a good thing. The locals would be happy and I think the visitors would be happier. This is a small city with tons of charm and narrow walkways. Compromise, Compromise.

"So it's OK to diss them ..." Really! Do you have a grandparent who might enjoy a cruise? Or maybe a handicapped friend or relative? Or perhaps a very timid friend who would benefit from seeing part of the world from a cruise ship? If you do, is it OK if I diss them? Why would you think it is fine to disrespect someone who travels in a different way from you?

Quote: ....and I think the visitors would be happier.
People from cruise ships are not visitors.?? Oh that’s right. They’re sub-humans

In 1973 a friend on mine went to Venice, which wrote on the postcard it felt like being in a painting. When I get to Venice, I'll arrive by train, most likely from Munich in the summer, even though I can logically expect the city to be swamped with tourists.

Dear Norma (and I do mean dear, as I have found you are a kind and caring person, albeit at bit prickly),

I have nothing against cruising as a mode of travel and I am happy that it is a good way for the elderly and mobility-impaired to see and enjoy the world and its wonders. But not Venice. That is the least friendly place for the mobility-impaired that I can imagine. Once they leave the cruise ship, how can they get around? There are steps everywhere, and one cannot move from place to place without encountering them. The vaporetti would be a nightmare with wheelchair or walker ( never seen them in Venice). When we took my elderly great-uncle from Japan to Venice ( his life wish) he gave up on trying to see anything after one day of being jostled by crowds, and sat in the hotel gazing out the window.

Even if one took an expensive water taxi to get from cruise ship to sightseeing goal, they would have to get on and off the water taxi, which involves some agility and balance. My great-uncle tried it once and said no more.

We learned that the whole world is not wide open to everyone, unfortunately.

And those who think they have a God-given right to travel where they please, by whatever means, might want to re-think. It is not just about crowding in .Venice, it is the environmental cost and degradation of the lagoon environment. People there are trying to preserve not only their way of life, but the whole wider environment. Why can't people listen?

Cruise ships can still ply the Mediterranean and Adriatic without stopping in Venice at all. That is what I am supporting, and that is all. So please do not call me an elitist or whatever. And I have called no one "sub-human".

The cruise ships aren't the problem. Traveling has become cheap, and more and more people can travel. China gets richer, and many millions of them will discover Europe soon. And all of them travel to the same places. I often see silly-looking itineraries like "London - Paris - Cinque Terre - Rome" here. Do you think small places like Cinque Terre can cope with million Americans, Asians and Europeans (which often already avoid these places during peak season btw.)?

Quite accurate. On last summer's trip I would say for certain that outside of the local language spoken, the one foreign language I heard just about every single day in Austria and Germany (minus Schleswig-Holstein), be it anywhere, hotel check-in, bus stops, eateries, lines for public WC in train stations, grocery shops (Rewe, etc), museums, U-Bahn, tourist frequented sites, etc etc, was Mandarin Chinese. At the grocery shops, Rewe, Penny Markt, the chances you won't run into Americans, but much more of a chance seeing the Mandarin Chinese there.

I think we all can conclude that the problem is tourists. Too damn many tourists. We should all stay home and save our money for the nursing home just like my parents did in the 50s.