Bull fights

Very much still a thing in many parts of Spain.

Regrettably, yes. As well as (some of) Spain, it also exists in (some of) France and Portugal. "Styles" vary.

Bullfights in Spain are very common with a dead bull at the end of each fight. In Portugal the bull lives. Not aware of any bull rings in France BUT could be around Spanish border.

"In Portugal the bull lives" - Frank

Well not really. During the "fight" the bull is still stabbed by about six "harpoons" (bandarilhas like banderillas), and will be bleeding. It is then exhausted during the "spectacle". It is true, the bull is not killed in the ring. But they often do not live for long after and instead are regularly taken out of the ring and killed by a slaughter-man in "private".

I wouldn't go to one (if I did, I would be cheering for the bull), but I think it's Sevilla that has one on most Sundays but not during the summer.

I attended one over 30 years ago in Mexico because my husband wanted to go. I regret it to this day. It bothered me for months after and even now when conversations/posts come up it bothers me again. While I understand it is part of some cultures, and I have no right to judge, I do not feel it is necessary to participate in activities I find objectionable.

Of course one of the biggest Bullfighting events just ended: San Fermines, with the encierro or Running of the bulls, and corridas, the bull fights. During the next weeks there will be many bull fights and encierros in Spain as different towns have their fiestas. There is also a lot of interested in the south of France.

Besides the typical corridas, there is the Recortes. These guys get into the bullring with the bulls, unarmed. Basically they run at the bulls and jump over them. Or the will stand still in front of the charging bull until the last minute when they swerve or jump out of the way. This is a very old method, think Minoan Art, but it is growing in popularity and there are several contests every year.

So, I would guess all of you who cluck and disapprove of bull fights are all vegetarians who would never eat a cow, lamb, pig or any other creature slaughtered for your delectation.

I'm with Norma. In the USA, and in Europe, the vast piles of beef, chicken, veal, pork, fish, and other products of animal husbandry are piled high in supermarkets. These do not arrive by magic, folks. I am a happy carnivore, and am aware of the antecedents of my dinner.

To Paul and Norma - I respectfully disagree with your point. Yes, we are mostly carnivores in the US as are the majority in Spain, Portugal, and France, that is not the issue. It's the fact that the meat we eat is not killed as part of a public blood letting spectacle. There is a big difference between butchering animals raised as food and killing animals unmercifully for sport. I know there are many vegetarians and vegans that also disagree with my opinion about eating meat, but that's another issue. Bullfights may be a cultural activity but they are disgusting to many of us, as are cockfights, dog fights, etc.

"It's the fact that the meat we eat is not killed as part of a public blood letting spectacle. "

Right, most of it in the US is factory farmed, and fed an unnatural diet with antibiotics. I would call that a spectacle.

Spain, Portugal and southern France have bullfights. I believe the ones in France they do not harm the bull, the ones in the ring run from the bull and scale a fence to get away.

Right, most of it in the US is factory farmed, and fed an unnatural diet with antibiotics. I would call that a spectacle.

It's very true that our meat production industry in the US has many problems, but I still say that's a separate issue. Nobody pays to watch and cheer on the butchering of those animals.

But in the long run it's everyone's choice, be they carnivores or vegetarians, whether or not they want to watch a barbaric spectacle. If that gets your blood rushing, so be it.

Watch some videos from slaughtering plants in the US and see if it so much less cruel than watching a bullfight. The animals suffer considerably before they are killed. Check out the semi trucks full of pigs, chickens, etc. and see how much they suffer just on their way to the slaughtering plants. See their crowded pens where they live. The turkeys, chickens, calves, pigs. Their lives are miserable and their deaths are miserable too. I don't think we get to tell Spaniards they are cruel for watching a bullfight, when we are just as cruel, just that they are aware and ours is all secretive.
This is why people have become vegan.

FWIW, the younger generations in Spain (50yrs old and under) seem to be more opposed to Bullfighting. When we spoke to younger guides in Madrid and Seville, most were opposed to the spectacle and there seemed to be more of a movement to ban them such as Catalonia tried to do.

Just wanted Nancy to know she has a liked minded person here.

Yes, I'll eat meat. I don't kill for fun, for sport. I will never understand the mind that finds taking a life fun.
Nor will I ever understand the mind that finds watching an animal suffer brutally in pain while people cheer, fun or entertaining.

IF I had to be the one to kill the animal for food, I most likely would be a vegetarian.

It's like a lion kills to live. The lion doesn't kill for fun. Only humans kill for fun. recreation. sport.

Only humans kill for fun. recreation. sport.

And cats.

Paul sums up my feelings perfectly. There are some things I just don't need to see. I recently took up archery and I'm surprised at the number of people who immediately ask if I'll be hunting critters--even people who know what an animal lover I am.

Christa,

With a bow and arrow it shouldn't even be called hunting. It's torturing animals for fun. The chances of the average "hunter" killing an animal with one single arrow? Nill. So the animal will have the arrow going through him/her and be in sheer agony. To the delight of the "hunter". Very sick.

Apparently there is bull fighting in France: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/bull-gores-matador-death-fight-graphic-content-article-1.3255661

Rick has surveyed these moral issues, long since, in his guidebooks for Spain.

"Is the OP asking because she wants to go see one, or asking because she wants to avoid one?"

I'm guessing the former. No matador is going to force you at sword point to watch his fair fight. The ethics of killing bulls for entertainment can be debated until the cows come home, best left for a different forum. Whilst I don't agree with it, it won't stop me from visiting France. I am equally at odds with Wall Street ethics but I'm off to Cape Cod later this year.

"I'm going to make a bet that most who have outrage at bullfighting have probably spent a few euros in the countries that have them legally, which just means their outrage is faux."

I've been to Germany, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.

In a way it might be argued that the Toro has it better than its bovine, ovine and porcine cousins.
They are raised on large ranches and are well treated (they are an investment, and the better the bull the higher the price). And though it is rare, they do have a chance to come out of the plaza alive. In 2017, 27 toros were given a pardon.

As for countries and popularity, the newspaper ABC reports

Si se suman la entradas vendidas en Francia (375.000 aproximadamente) y Portugal (436.000), el total de espectadores presentes en plazas de toros de Europa durante el pasado año ascendería a casi seis millones (5.849.000).

So 375k tickets were sold in France and 436k in Portugal. The rest were sold in Spain. They conclude that 1500 events took place during 2017 in the three countries.

In the end I agree with the points Gundersen made. The question here I think is whether the OP wanted to know about the current state of Bullfighting in the world, or was it to stir up some kind of debate/express outrage.

probably to sell popcorn.

It's like a lion kills to live. The lion doesn't kill for fun. Only
humans kill for fun

Not so:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_killing
https://tinyurl.com/yd9krjyq

Michael,

I didn't see the term "fun, for "sport" mentioned in your link. Am I missing something?

I saw my first bull fight in Madrid this last May. I wasn't sure whether I'd like it, but my husband really wanted to see one. I was rivited. The real spectical is watching the bullfighters face the bulls. It is a spectacular dangerous dance. The bull's interest and attacks are a necessary part of that dance. The bull's death seems almost incidental. It happens sometime after the matadore delivers the final thrust. Extras may stab it after it is down to speed it on its way. The bulls do not appear in pain though they obviously become exhausted. And they are butchered and eatten.

If it's moral to eat a bull, I don't know why enjoying it's death first would make it immoral anymore than enjoying hunting would make eating venison immoral.

But, if you want to worry about animals at bullfights, consider the horses which are often gored by the bulls. Take away the horses and I'd have no moral quams. But the horses are there solely to facilitate a spectical in which they are blind unknowing participants.

Jen, you make the entire spectacular sound even more cruel and sick. So being stabbed to death and they don’t seem to be in pain? I guess the bulls just don’t notice knives and swords cutting them and stabbing them. You’re kidding, right?

Ms. Jo,
In reference to your comment "Check out the semi trucks full of pigs, chickens, etc. and see how much they suffer just on their way to the slaughtering plants", I did see such a thing and it profoundly disturbed and upset me. I was a teenager at the time and it was just a truck driving down the highway with hundreds of half-alive, half-dead chickens crammed into cages so tight that they could barely move, if at all. That memory of those poor suffering chickens is as clear in my mind today as it was those many years ago, and it was a life changing experience. After much reflection and discomfort, my appetite for eating meat for pleasure dissipated after that awful scene, and I haven't done so for over 25+ years. I don't believe in preaching to others or judging what they should do, we are all adults and capable of reason and examining our own ethics and behavior that harms others, including animals. Sometimes it takes a very visceral experience to break the cognitive dissonance and question our values; otherwise it's too far removed (much like the nicely packaged products you find in the supermarket). It certainly worked for me; others may draw totally different conclusions.

No Paul, I'm not kidding. Despite several spears stuck in their backs, and a few stabs from horsemen fending them off, the bulls do not bellow in pain, they show no immediate change in behavior even after the final thrust. And they run towards not away from men and horses. Like MMA fighters, they appear too hyped on adrenilan to feel much pain in the heat of the moment. And for the bull there is no after the heat of the moment.

Is it kind? No. Is it more cruel than a hunter shooting a deer or a duck? Hardly. The bull is destined to lose, but unlike the deer and the duck, or a fish for that matter, it is aggressive. And it's death will be fast. Not so for many deer or ducks, or the fish that gets away.

I'm sorry Jen, but the more I read about it, the more disgusting it becomes to me. I know I would never go to one. I don't even like watching fake ones in the movies. But I know others don't feel the same way and it's not for me to say one's right and one's wrong.

We can all agree to disagree.

I didn't see the term "fun, for "sport" mentioned in your link. Am I
missing something?

It's right in the headline of the second link: "Vicious Animals That Kill Just for Fun"

Jen, I saw my first Bull Fight pretty much the way you did. So I understand. But I've mellowed a lot with age. I only shoot one deer a year now, cause that's all the venison I want to eat in a year. Rabbits are still game for sport and stew though. But the trout, well, i love the bigger fish of the controlled waters so the are all catch and release these days. As for a bull fight again? I've seen it, done it, got something out of it at the time, but don't think it would light my fire at this point in my life. Having said that I suspect it was a growth experience for you. It will give you something to think back on and balance against a lot of judgments and changes in your attitude; that will make you more informed in your judgments. Interesting that this gets more push back than traveling to countries where homosexuality is illegal. But each to their own. Got to love and understand those that are disgusted by bullfighting, it is sort of primal. I understand personal attacks a lot less.

This is a complex topic. This thread might deleted on Monday.

I would not go to a bullfight myself, but I would also not avoid visiting a country because they have bullfights.

One thing I have a hard time with--if the fact that we eat meat makes it alright to do bullfights--does the fact that we eat meat also make it alright to hold and attend dog fights and cock (chicken) fights?

I am not vegetarian, but I tend to buy free range organic.

I don't think I've read anything like Jen's post regarding bullfighting!

Here are the true facts about the cruel 'sport' http://www.stopbullfighting.org.uk/facts.htm

If you find the idea a bullfighting disgusting, don't go. But, it is hardly animal torture:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542952/Fighting-bulls-switch-off-the-pain.html https://thelastarena.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/perhaps-bullfighting-is-not-a-moral-wrong-my-talk-at-the-edinburgh-international-book-festival/

I read the article posted by Jen and it's nothing but a puff piece written by a supporter of bullfighting.

I suggest for anyone in any doubt that bulls do not suffer in bullfighting that they watch the 60 second video in this PETA article (warning, it's not pleasant viewing)

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/cruel-sports/bullfighting/

"It's called cultural sensitivity and understanding the practices and norms of the country you're visiting" JC
We should all follow JC's advice from another thread, I guess unless JC decides otherwise

You know I've never seen the same outrage against countries that ban homosexuality or treat women as second class citizens (by Western standards at least).

Whataboutism - Wikipedia
"Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."

Next we're going to hear...but whatabout Hillary's e-mail server??? as an argument for (or against) bullfighting.
If you're going to argue one way or another, it helps to stick to the specific topic at hand (please) unless the point is to stir up unrelated faux outrage.

But whatabout Amazon Prime Day? Or Christmas in July?

You know I've never seen the same outrage against countries that ban homosexuality or treat women as second class citizens (by Western standards at least).

I'm not aware that either of these subjects has become a topic of an OP on this forum. If they had, I'm sure you'd hear plenty of outrage. Stay on topic please!

Agnes, of course you are correct. I tend to go off on those two subjects because they hit close to home and, well, I should curb it. I will accept you prodding me back to the middle; you do it with class and good point. But, what is the connection between her server and bullfighting? Come on, you know me by now. I cant resist. Forgive me?

"It's called cultural sensitivity and understanding the practices and norms of the country you're visiting" JC
We should all follow JC's advice from another thread, I guess unless JC decides otherwise

Understanding the culture of a country doesn't automatically mean that you have to agree with it. Genital mutilation, stoning for adultery and capital punishment for homosexuality are all examples of a country's culture. Yet if you feel it appropriate to compare such practices with tipping you can fill your boots, personally I prefer to address the topic in question.

Good answer JC!

There are two different forms of "bullfighting" in France. "Tauromachie" is Spanish-style bullfighting where the bull is ritually killed. The other style, however, is "course camarguaise", in which unarmed men try to grab rosettes that are tied to a loose bull's horns. There is considerable local debate about whether the bull is amused, irritated, frightened, or just confused by the experience, but the only physical harm tends to be suffered by the humans.

Why did I expect to see this when I saw a question on bullfights?

Yes, they still have them. I went to one during April Faire in Seville. Six bulls dead but many will be happy to know it was the first time back in the ring for one of the matadors. The previous fall he had slipped for just a fraction of a second and ended up gored through the face, losing one eye. I saw video replays of it, over and over, in Rick's favorite bull bar in Madrid.

I did see a story since then where they had to suspend a fight because all three matadors were injured and unable to continue.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10846799/Bullfight-called-off-after-three-matadors-gored-in-Madrid.html

They used to have them in Tijuana when I was growing up, in San Diego, but I never went.

I wonder if this question may just have been to stir things up as it has been 3 days with 49 responses and the OP has not returned, not even to clarify as to why she was asking.