Bit off more than I can Chew...Now I'm freaking out!

I'm sorry my question wasn't clear. I'm wondering the best way to do this loop with 6 then 5 people. Should we just buy train tickets, a rail pass, a rental car, or fly. Where can we camp or other places that we can cut our lodging costs? We are flexible, I don't think I can couch surf with 4 kids though. Can I rent out my home while we are gone. We live 20 minutes from Napa, 45 minutes from San Francisco, 2 hours from Lake Tahoe and 3 hours from Yosemite. My husband could just stay with my mom and check people in and out. I wonder if europeans would be interested in my 4 bedroom home. I don't want to swap, since I don't want to stay in one place. :)

Hi, The HI (Hosteling International) hostels in Germany, England, Austria have family rooms, at least in the big cities. I've seen German families with their kids in HI hostels in Germany. Don't dismiss the idea of having dinner (a hot dinner) at the hostels, good cheap food.

Eliminate one thing at a time and see what's left. James has the best idea. After that work on what transportation remains. The first to go will probably be picking up the car in one country and dropping it in another after you see the premium that idea is going to toss at you.

I was about to ask how exactly one "jumps the gun" and spends several thousand dollars on airfare without doing any up-front budgeting or planning for such an expensive trip, but then I decided your post might be a load of sh _t. If this post is genuine, however, then you need to go back to the drawing board. You would be better off slashing a ton of days off of your trip, limiting the real estate you're covering to something more manageable, and paying whatever change fees your air carrier will charge to change your dates. I might recommend reading a guidebook for people who haven't traveled before – try ETBD. If you do end up going for 45 days, maybe you'll get squatters in your house...that's been a big deal on the news recently. Yikes! You don't want that!

Well, it looks to me that you're going to have to scale back on your plans. Prioritize the places you want to visit and then start removing the ones at the bottom, until you get back in budget. Skip the rental cars as much as possible and take the train, fly, and use public transportation to get around. I would focus on eliminating far flung region to tighten your circle up a little bit. Visit fewer places, but spend more time actually being there and not in transit. Self-cater and see about perhaps renting an apartment instead of going the hostel route.

1. Go to the Sacramento group meetings. When is it Andrea, Eileen? 2. Yes you can get vans in England. 3. Not only is the number of people in a car a controlling factor in size, so is luggage. You'll never get 6 (or 5) into an "economy" car if there is luggage involved. 4. What Ed said about drop charges. 5. Apartments may well be cheaper than even hostels for a large group. 6. What the others said. Travel less, stay put more. 7. Be realistic. 8. You said it, HUGE loop. Have you looked at the distances? How much do you think that would cost in fuel for your vehicle, alone? Fuel in Europe will make your California prices look like chump change. Figure on over $9 a US gallon. Expect most refueling stops to well exceed $100 US. Lots of tolls, vignettes, and then the dreaded ZTLs and their cousins elsewhere in Europe. 9. Eat nutritionally. Cutting that many corners will not make for healthy children or Mom. 10. See number 7. 11. See number 1.

And the biggest one - number 12. 12. Have you calculated that you are trying to "see" 10 countries in 45 days? With 4 kids? That's 4 and a half days for each country. Not city - country. 4 and a half days per country is you have a magic wand or flue powder. Take a day to make the journey between countries and that's 10 days off seeing the countries. What about visiting anything within those countries, or visiting more than one location? Which will you leave out - Venice, Florence or Rome? Paris or Provence or Normandy or Burgundy? London or Bath or York? Berlin or Bavaria or the Rhine Valley or Rothenburg? Vienna or Innsbruck or Salzburg?

Stacey,
As Nigel mentioned, we have a RS Helpline travel meeting each month in Sacramento. We meet on the 3rd Saturday of the month. You can find the specifics under this very same General Europe heading. Just scroll down until you find it. You will find some very experienced travelers at the meeting who can help you try to solve this dilemma. You can Private Message me if you have any questions. I also recommend an apartment as a more economical way to save money on lodging and food costs. We can help guide you to find these accommodations. If you must drive, for a longer period you may save money by doing a lease. Picking it up and/or dropping it off outside of France can add to the cost. You will pay a big drop fee to rent in one country and drop off in another, as has already been mentioned. Be aware that in addition to the high costs of fuel, many countries have toll roads or other associated driving costs. It makes driving on our Bay Area bridges look like chump change. Summer is the most expensive time to travel, but there are things you can do to save money.

Costs come in 5 categories. This is how you do a family on the cheap; Airfare; (apparently already done) Lodging; For 1-2 night stays, Hostel rooms for 6 - nothing else will be cheaper unless you go camping. Otherwise, stay long enough in one place to rent an apartment. That's usually a week, but you can occasionally find shorter terms. Ground Transport; You're kinda stuck. Yes, there are vehicles that hold more than 5, but they cost big bucks to rent and they suck $8/gallon gas. There are multiple ways to save on train fare with children, but every country is different and it gets very complex fast. I've gotten great deals on trains, but only after many hours of research. Food; Make your own most of the time in apartments and hostels (where allowed), otherwise do picnics and eat quick-stop food and pizzas. Don't eat anywhere there is a wait staff, sorry. Entertainment & extras; Seek out what's free. Look onto places where children are either free or there is a steep "Family" discount (most museums). Don't go shopping and crave "stuff". Take photos instead. There is no way you are going to do 45 days anywhere in Europe during the summer for $12,000 including airfare. Three years ago we did 35 days for about $14,000 as a family of 5 - benefitting from the lower costs in parts of Germany, Poland, etc. but even I couldn't quite duplicate that with today's airfares + general inflation. If you stick with 45 days and do everything reasonable to cut costs, you might be able to keep it to under $20,000, but even that will be tight. When you factor airfare out of the equation, we find our other costs work out to a very consistent $300/day for 5.

I was planning on going to the Sacramento meeting but it is at the same time as my daughters sporting event. It's $250 to change each ticket. So I'm holding off on that idea. I have Army friends in Germany who would let us crash on their couch before we became homeless. I admit this was impulsive but that's what I'm known for. No one has died yet. My kids want to see where I lived growing up in Germany as a military brat. They want to see some major sights but mostly they would like to meet some kids in other countries their age. I think your comments make sense. Shorten the list. Focus on what are the most important things to our family. You can only look at so many Cathedrals, castles and museums. I'm going to research some backpacking trips. I meet so many Europeans while I'm camping for two weeks in Yosemite each year.They all pull in for 1 night in the RV across America RV's and tell me how in 30 days they are covering 10 major vacation spots in California and Yellowstone. All of these places are normally at least a week long vacation for us. I'm always dumbfounded by how they can experience anything that way. Now I am them. And it makes sense. I may just be giving my kids a small taste of each place, but that's ok. A small taste is better than no taste at all. I googled map the entire route and saw all the toll roads and it told me the gas price. I rated it at $10 a gallon. The car plus gas plus my researched tolls, plus parking (i used Paris as an example) was still cheaper than 5 global eurail passes for 30 days.

People have already given you some sage advice, and I'll try to be not repetitive. Here are a few points I don't see made yet.
1) Reconsider your trip length, not just because of money, though that's certainly important; but because of the fatigue factor. However great your kids are, I would think they will begin to miss their friends and get cranky. 2) Don't count on being able to rent out your house. Why would anyone want to rent in Vacaville, when they can rent in the Napa Valley, Tahoe, etc.? Do a check on one of the vacation rental sites, e.g., vrbo, to see what the competition is. 3) Look into leasing a vehicle. It might be a better deal than renting. I think Peugot and Kemwel are the big players in that market, but someone here can probably be more helpful with specifics. 4) What are called "economy" cars in Europe are VERY small, and have VERY small trunks. I can't imagine spending the amount of time you propose to be driving with three kids in the back seat and the necessary gear for all of you. Don't your kids ever squabble in the car? It could get really unpleasant and wear you all down quickly. 5) Keep coming back for advice as you begin to adjust to reality. Most people here really want to help (even if we sometimes sound impatient with newbies).

No "economy" vehicle will work because you have 6. Our family of 5 always uses the smallest car available that has 5 belts. We rarely spend more than 4 hours in the car and the children get along fine. But that's not an option for you. The last time I looked into it, a 3-row-seats vehicle rented for 3x the price of an economy car. Hiking or camping can be a fantastic experience, but it would necessitate bringing a lot more "stuff" with you. That can add a lot of complication to an already complicated trip. Be careful there. Knowing anyone you can stay with, even for just a few nights, can really save money. If it were me, I would try to organize the trip into segments that went something like this; 2-3 urban areas connected by train (buy point-to-point tickets and learn how to best take advantage of the discounts for families - don't use rail passes as they are a poor value for adults and horrible for minors who sometimes ride for free anyway), then 2-3 weeks in rural areas by car staying in at least one location for a week in a rental (two would be better) with a pool. This becomes your temporary "home" while you drive to nearby day-trips and/or hike. Then finish the trip with another 2-3 urban areas by train. That gives you contrast and keeps you out of cities with a vehicle.

Stacey, As you've already purchased return tickets to Germany, that complicates the situation slightly. Getting to all the locations you mentioned will cost whether you're using rail, budget air or rental vehicle. Using open-jaw flights would have been a better option. I assume you're flying into Frankfurt? As the others have mentioned (and as you've probably concluded), you'll need to reduce the number of countries you're visiting, as it won't be possible to get to all of them in a 45-day time frame. You might find it helpful to get everyone in your group to make a list of all the countries, ranked in terms of priority. Consolidate the list and then pick the top six (or so). In deciding which ones to visit, you'll also have to consider geography, and for that reason I'd probably skip Ireland, Croatia and perhaps Spain to begin with. It would also help to have some idea which cities you plan to visit in each country, and which sights you all most want to see. It would be more efficient to choose countries which are relatively close geographically, as it will make travel between them faster and easier. Travel by rail is going to be the least complicated method, especially in Italy where 2nd class tickets are relatively cheap. Using a rental car in Italy comes with a few "caveats", so be sure to keep that in mind. With more specific information, I'm sure the group here and the Sacramento group will be able to help you sort this out. Cheers!

-Thank you everyone for some great ideas. I booked a rental car from Alamo for the 45 days and it is $1500 without the additional coverages. I can not bring it into Croatia and they don't allow this size into Italy. I just looked at the lease program mentioned above. I would have to take a train to Brussels to pick it up/drop off. I can take it anywhere and it has all the insurance and is $2509.00, Diesel, and eco so it gets 40mpg. -I also looked at an RV $6054 for the entire time. 17mpg plus camp sites and transportation into major cities. -What is the best way to book lodging, mostly Hostels that lets you cancel with no fees up to one week prior? -I can stay space A on military posts but they only take reservations 7 days prior if space is available. I don't want to rely on it. -The train and public transportation idea sounds great but all of the inexpensive lodging options are hard to reach that way.
The most affordable thing I think would be 6 major cities, 1 week in each. Rent a flat and take an overnight train to each city. I just wanted more freedom.

Stacy the more moves you make the more expensive the trip, for 45 days I suggest a week in six places,, not ten.
Secondly with your schedule as is your kids won't get a chance to relax and blend a bit, very hard to meet other kids if you are literally always on the go. I should mention this too, so kids don't take it personally, but europeon kids are likely to befriend tourists , unless we are talking about wee ones at the playground. Also with the cost of hostels , why aren't you looking at apartment rentals, you will save money by eating in, and have more privacy, hostels usually charge by the head, so even a cheap on at 25-30 euros a night times six people is still hundreds of euros a night , look at aparments. Many do have one week minimum ( but not all) is summer so this works well, plus they often have washers and dryers included.

"I should mention this too, so kids don't take it personally, but europeon kids are likely to befriend tourists" I'm going to assume Pat intended to type "unlikely". I completely agree. Although English is widely spoken amongst adults in Europe, and many kids learn it at school, they usually don't know enough to carry on a conversation until their mid to late teens. Unless your kids are fluent in the local language, don't expect a lot of meaningful interactions. From what I understand, military lodging is very difficult to obtain if you're not traveling on orders, so you can effectively drop this idea. You could probably get rooms at Edelweis in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, but here's a secret... when I compare Edelweis's advertised rates to other non-military options in GaP, Edelweis is not very competitive. And I agree with the others... several weeks of eating nothing but Top Ramen and oatmeal? Don't expect your kids health to hold up too well.

You aren't going until next summer, so I wouldn't jump into transportation reservations so quickly. You have plenty of time for that. I use vrbo.com and homeaway.com for apartment rentals. I think the first thing you need to do is decide on your itinerary, then start looking at lodging options. Hotels are not like in the U.S., with 2 beds in a room that you can all pile onto. They charge per person. Once you know where you are staying you can consider transportation options. As has been mentioned repeatedly, the further you go, the greater the costs. Where are you flying into? I'm not sure why you would need to go to Brussels to pick up a leased vehicle. I leased a minivan through AutoEurope one time, picking it up in Frankfurt and dropping it off in Paris. I hope you can join us at our meeting next month. We can sit with you and give you some real help, before you impulsively commit yourself to more expenses.

I think you've got a great attitude about traveling with your family! Don't panic. Your kids sound like great travel companions. I support the apartment rental idea. Booking.com can give you help in researching apartments and hostels so you can compare, you don't really have to book through them, although they don't charge a fee for reserving and their cancellation policies are fair (usually a week or less is required for cancelling with no penalty). Apartments will let you have access to a kitchen and usually laundry facilities, which you'll need in 45 days of travel - doing laundromat washes at several euro per kilo adds up, too. You should consider paring down your list of places - as it is, you'll be spending lots of time on the road. Some countries have family rates for train travel, or you could rent a car in each country to avoid drop-off charges. What if you chose a couple of countries and let your kids each choose a city? Britain, the Netherlands and France might be a good (albeit smaller) loop, maybe add Italy or Germany into the mix.

Thank you for the replies! It's like talking me off a cliff. I really need it. I can't sleep. I'm online researching constantly. My poor kids have had takeout for the past two nights. I need to come up with some kind of plan. The hard part is my husband. He has these high expectations of what he wants to see and do since he is only there for 2 weeks. He is Croatian and really wants to go there. He wants to go to what in his mind are "Manly places", like Scotland and Ireland. Since we only need the larger vehicle while he is there I was thinking of just getting plane tickets to Split (since I have 8 months to search for cheap fares) and renting an apartment for a week on the beach where we will just take the local bus around and he can look up distant relatives. Then take the ferry to Ancona, Italy and train over to Rome where we will spend the next week with him. He can then fly out and we can continue on through Italy, overnight train to France, then London, overnight ferry to Amsterdam, then finally end in Germany. My kids really want to see Granada and the Moorish influence but I can't figure out how to get there without flying. My oldest thinks we should just pack our backpacking gear, rent a car and go where the wind blows us.

Also note ,an economy car that seats 5 will most likely not have room for 5 peoples luggage( no I 'm not kidding even if you only take one small carryone each). Remember you have to keep luggage out of site too, can't leave it inside car while sightseeing must be in trunk. when you look at car rental sites you will see they show how many people and or luggage will fit. Part of the problem is you are going to so many countries, if you stay in one country for more then 3 weeks then leasing a car is cheaper usually , my dad uses AutoEurope , so check those prices out.

"My oldest thinks we should just pack our backpacking gear, rent a car and go where the wind blows us." 30 years ago when rail passes were a good deal, yes. But because you have 6 people who are planning a trip in 2013, and you need to slim your budget, not add to it... you will need to make some hard choices on for your itinerary, and plan well in advanced.

I don't know the ages of your children, but some of them could earn money for part of their share of the trip. If you have very young children, they may qualify for free travel or entrances to museums, etc. One advantage of hostels is that they usually provide a breakfast, often of the continental sort. The kids can pack in the food then. I would carry a jar of peanut butter and some cheese to supplement the breakfast fare. Milk, juice, coffee and bread may be what is provided by the hostel. Years ago I had friends who camped around Europe for the summer with their young children. Of course, camping requires some equipment. I agree with those who suggest paring down your planned itinerary. Concentrate on one or two countries, rent a car sparingly, and stay places where the kids can roam and make friends. I think Italy would be a good country for this, or Spain. If you want cooler countries, focus on the British Isles (including the Republic of Ireland). Smaller towns are typically less expensive than cities.

Hi Stacey I may have missed you saying - when you travel next year how will the kiddiewinks be? There may be savings you can make by kiddie fares on some things as you visit. You said that your oldest wants to drift. Is he old enough to go off on his own for a few days? Camping may work but you should be aware that in most countries you must use proper campgrounds. You can't just stop along the road and camp. It sounds like lots of trouble organizing all this. I bet your children will thank you for the experience as they grow up. I bet you'll have a great time...

Stacey, I like your style! You're a true adventurer. I agree with much of what's been said here.
Here's my suggestions, and please excuse me if I'm repeating what's already been said. If you're going with apartments, VRBO, Tripadvisor and Homeaway all have options, as well as booking.com (altho they tend to be expensive). We stay in apartments whenever we can- it saves a ton of money and also you get to see a bit more of what life is like where you're staying. If you want to follow your son's suggestion and just 'go where the wind blows you' then camping might be a better bet. You'll need equipment, but if you stay the first few nights in a hostel, you can buy that locally and be prepared to leave it behind (or sell it) when you're done. Check your distances between cities and countries- then you'll have a more realistic idea of just where you can get too. Maybe your older kids could do that? You'll do this and have the time of your life! Good luck.

My kids are going to be 17g, 13g, 11b& 10g next June. We do 15 night back country backing trips so all of our gear fits in our backpack including a bear canister and 15 days of food. Take out the canister, 2 liters of water, and food we now have room for some nicer clothes. So talked more to the kids and they just really want to go to Italy, France, Germany and Croatia. My oldest is a lifeguards part time but is saving up for Dorm stuff since she is starting University next year. I was thinking about looking into some type of summer camp in Europe the 2 weeks my husband is there and just doing the two weeks just the two of us.
Just a thought. We agreed to cancel cable for the next 8 months to give us $800 toward "fun food". Also they want to list all of thier old snowboard gear on eBay. And have a few garage sales. To do the stuff they want to do. Another question: If we lease a minivan there isn't a trunk. How do we hide our stuff?

Stacey, it sounds like you're already getting more focused. As much as I personally like the UK? I think makes sense, in light of your husband's interest in Croatia, your wish to show your kids where you were an Army "brat" in Germany, and the kids' own preferences, to forget about crossing the Channel on this trip, and explore within the 4 countries you just mentioned. And also, just some compassionately-intended advice from one human who can get too intensely involved with a project, to another: get UP from the computer and go outside. Leave all this alone for a day or more. And for Pete's sake, don't book ANYTHING else right now. I'll let the experienced European travelers chime in, but so far it doesn't seem like there needs to be a big rush right now to book anything - especially transportation - for next summer.

"Also they want to list all of thier old snowboard gear on eBay. And have a few garage sales. To do the stuff they want to do." This is a refreshing change from the types of kids that have absolutely NO interest in their trip! (applause) Definitely try to make it to our Sacramento meeting. I really think we can help, and relieve a lot of your stress!!! If you can't make it next Sat., maybe we can get together on a different date. Breathe...;-)

"I was thinking about looking into some type of summer camp in Europe the 2 weeks my husband is there and just doing the two weeks just the two of us." This seems guaranteed to add both expense and complexity to your plan, neither of which you need. While having time to yourselves, just the two of you, might be nice, how would you manage Croatia, for example? Your husband wants to go there, and so do your kids. If they are in camp, when do you go? And how do you find an English-speaking camp that would appeal to two teenagers and two tweens? You are better off narrowing down from what you were already considering.

Stacey i am very impressed and nicely surprised to hear how your kids are willing to contribute to trip, sacrifice , and be part of planning too, such a nice change from some posts where parents are bending over backwards to give their kids fancy trips, expect nothing from them, and don't even expect them to help with planning, and sometimes those "kids" are alot older then yours! Mini vans have that small area behind the back bench, it has a flap that closes over it to hide things from view.

While you are planning I highly recommend that you visit Gemut.com for information on car rentals in Europe. They are actually in Oregon, and I've made my reservations by calling them and talking to Andy in particular for assitance and advice. But their website has a wealth of information that would be useful to you to get started. Be sure to read "What You Should Know About Renting a Car in Europe" and the new article "Rental Car Categories in Germany" which has a special section on "Renting a Van in Europe." These guys are experts and there is no extra charge for their services. We have used them twice, Europcar was the ultimate vendor, and when I compared prices, Gemut.com actually could get a cheaper price than going directly to Europcar. As said before, rental cars are useless in big cities, so if you intend to concentrate on them rather than driving through the countryside, a rental vehicle may not be the best thing when you factor in fuel, tolls, parking and potential traffic tickets. We rented cars the past two years because we wanted to drive, not just as a means of transportation between two locations. There are advantages to all the different kinds of transportation in Europe but one thing that hasn't been mentioned directly is that on the train the kids and you can get up and move around and have a readily accessible toilet. Not necessarily so if you are driving...

Doing a home exchange doesn't always require an exchange at the same time. Some exchanges are done because the people have a vacation home. Also, you could do several different exchanges in different cities/countries. Check out "home exchange" online. Also, you can rent apartments. Check out airbnb. Some apartments rent out for just a few days, others for longer. Hostels are another option, especially since many hostels have family size rooms. Good luck in your planning.

I'd also check out using university accomodations. Many schools rent out dorm rooms and even apartments during vacation times and spare ones during the school year. The London School of Economics is one example.

Hi, Generally, the large lockers at train stations in Germany cost 5 Euro for 72 hours.

Stacey, congratulations to your kids! I would forgo the home exchange idea, it sounds like one more big project to deal with. You'll be able to find hostels that can accommodate your whole family. I checked Trenitalia for trains in Italy and they do have family tickets (up to 5 people going to the same place together). And good advice about going outside once in a while.

The single most cost-effective strategy to save costs is to reduce your "movements" while in Europe. In other words, cut the list of stops in your "loop". I'd pick 6 places and stay a whole week on which of them. You can always cut down on accommodation costs by staying longer. Apartments will be cheaper than hostels with a travel party that large. Hostels don't usually allow (for good reason!) minors in dorms unless their travel party is taking the whole room. But then even cheaper hostels at US$ 20-25/night might become expensive to the point a not-pricey apartment is much better (and has better cooking facilities). Moreover, you can use each of these "bases" where you stay a week to do sideline day-trips. As for transportation, you need AT LEAST an intermediate Station Wagon to fit 5 people + LIMITED luggage. You might consider leasing a car from Renault Drive or Peugeot Lease or other similar schemes. It is cheaper then renting, often, and has more reasonable drop-off charges.

I have been looking at apartment week long rentals in different cities and they all charge a flat rate for the week plus and extra 140€ per week per person over the first two. We might as well do Hostels and not be stuck in expensive cities for long. I looked at places outside of cities for weeklong stays but the price of the train into the city for 6 comes out to more than just staying in the city. I am torn about the transportation also. I really like the lease option. They have the perfect seven seater, that folds into a five seater after my husband flies home. It's diesel and claims 50mpg. And if worse came to worse we could sleep in it. :) At the same time I like the train option. We could do some overnight trains and ferries. Not get the passes and take advantage of the kids riding free in Germany and half price in other places. I like not having to worry about getting tickets or having the car broken into. Does anyone know how much the lock boxes at train stations are? That could add an additional expense while visiting towns. I told my husband I am so overwhelmed that I might just rent an apartment in my old village in Germany for a month and explore Germany in depth. I got a huge boo from all in the room. I suggested Eastern Europe and no one wants to do that either. The kids would rather sleep in the car and use the money for the ballet. Our friends said everyone will think we are **** from our smell. Since lodging is my biggest problem, Do I find affordable lodging and plan my trip around that? Or plan my trip out then find lodging we can afford?

Plan the trip and find lodging you can afford.... as far as Eastern Europe have the kids taken a look at some of the incredible things there are to see? Sooo much cheaper. Try to have them investigate Budapest, Romania (Transylvania, Peles Castle)Bulgaria, Krakow... They would then have the benefit of traveling to places most people have never been...
With all those people I would definitely have a car. Allows so much freedom and flexibility (and yes, you could sleep in it if you had to:))

I am no expert in travel, and I may plan totally different than most people, but here is what I do: * decide on my budget and what the maximum is we are willing to spend * then I start by finding a reasonable loop or route making notes about how far the distances are, then check rental cars, gas, etc. vs. train ticket purchases for the whole route. * then I check out accommodations on that route to see how much they are. We mainly stick with B & B's that will include breakfast (we don't need lunch, or just a very light snack)
* I use RS books to see what he suggests for $$ for meals and entertainment for whatever country we are in. This gives me my costs for the trip. If it is too much, then I change the route, or transportation, etc. until my costs fit my budget. We have never gone over. Then I keep track as we go so I know I'm on track. I guess you have to decide how much you are willing to spend, and if you overbought what you can afford, it may make more sense to change your tickets than come home with thousands of $$ on a credit cards! Hope to see you at the RS meeting this Sat.!

BTW, the Dutch do not smell. The are very clean people.

Hi Stacey, How exciting! I spent a year traveling around Europe and Asia with my boyfriend a few years ago, and it was the best time of my life. Just relax, you'll have a great time. It doesn't have to be much more expensive than traveling around the US, as long as you are smart about it. Rent apartments through websites like airbnb.com rather than staying in hotels. Picnic on local bread and cheese and fresh produce (don't eat ramen, you'll regret not trying the local foods!). Rent a van for short periods as you need to (and yes, they do have them in every single country in Europe), but stick to trains and even planes when you can, since it's actually often cheaper when you consider gas. Finally, I'd cut down your list of countries in half or preferably even less. (On my trip, we devoted about a month to most major European countries.) I'd probably stick with the southern countries (Spain, Italy, France, Germany, and maybe Croatia would be plenty) because they are a bit less expensive compared to the UK and Scandinavia. A week or more in each country will give you some time to actually explore the countries instead of just rushing between them. There are always future trips. You'll get more out of your trip, and your money, if you go to some small random little towns as well as the famous cities and sites. 45 days might seem like a lot, but these are whole countries we're talking about here. :) Feel free to message me for more help planning some details. Claudia

I just found 1 way air from Germany to Split for the day we need it with 6 available tickets for $114 each. Should I grab it now or do you think it would be cheaper if I wait? This is a basic idea, thoughts? Fly to Split spend 7 days in an apartment Ferry to Italy (or rent a car for the entire Italy portion, the tolls are high here) Train to Rome stay 5 nights (husband flys out) Train to Pisa stay in Tuscany region 4 nights Train to Venice stay 2 nights Train to Barcelona stay 2 nights Train to Granada stay 3 nights Train to Madrid stay 1 night Overnight train to Paris 3 nights Pick up lease
Drive around Netherlands and Germany for 19 days Is a rail pass better than just booking each leg? They are mostly reservation trains. Not sure which would be cheaper.

Hi, "...in Germany for a month and explore Germany in depth. I got a huge boo from all in the room." First, that's a wonderful idea going from south to north or east, or west to east. Second, they don't know Germany period.

Before you start to solidify any train schedule, be sure to check the DB website (http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en) to search your routes and connections. For example, it takes at least 18 hours to get to Barcelona from Venice! Obviously, most of the options are overnight in that case, but they all will take a big bite out of time in Venice or Barcelona or both when you have so few days in either. You will most likely need to go to the major train company of the country where you start the journey to buy your tickets. But I find the DB information easier to search and understand and you can see the number of train changes, where the stops are and even a map of the route. More along this track: 10 hours from Barcelona to Granada (no matter if you go through Madrid, Malaga or take an overnight train), 5 hours from Granada to Madrid by the fastest train you get the picture. I didn't check where in Italy the ferry from Split lands, but your potential ride to Rome could also take a long time. On a personal note, we took the overnight train from Rome to Catania (Sicily) 3 years ago. It was expensive, crowded and miserable in a cabin for 2 with bunk beds. It would actually have been cheaper to spend the night somewhere along the way and arrive to meet our daughter clean and not so exhausted, but even if it would've been more expensive, it would've been worth it. So be sure to check the total costs for those overnight trains compared with the amenities provided especially for your large group.

Take a look at the cost of those trains, amount of time travel, and how much time you will actually get to spend in a given place. If you you find cities within just 3-4 hours of each other, and you spend, for example, two nights, you are only getting 1 1/2 days of sight seeing. You might find the cost is too high for such limited sight seeing. Especially if your budget seems tight. I'd suggest you take a deep breath, try to relax (although I can totally relate!), and just spend more time with your research really getting a good understanding of cost and time. That will help you come up with a workable plan.

Stacey - I understand that you're overwelmed and you have a big trip to plan with a relatively small budget, but trust all of us when we say that panicking and locking yourself into prices now is not a good idea. Budget air carriers in Europe are not the same as US airlines. The optimum time to buy for Euro budget carriers is anywhere from 2-6 months, you aren't saving money by locking yourself into fares 8 months out when you haven't had the time to do all the research you need to find the cheapest fares available, and on a tight budget, you really will want the cheapest fares. Different websites don't even show all the options. I used to use Kayak.com for finding budget flights, until I realized that it didn't show all the Euro budget carriers. I now use Skyscanner, which is a little bit more holistic but still not perfect - it really takes time and a steep learning curve to figure out how to get the best prices to travel around Europe. Luckily - you have time! Lots of it! There is absolutely no reason to panic right now. Take a deep breath, buy some good travel guides on Amazon, and spend the new few months on the web and reading the guides to get a better sense of how to approach the nitty-gritty of actually coordinating a trip this big for the best price.

STOP BUYING TICKETS. Oh my gosh, you have nearly a year to plan and you're just getting started, if you keep buying things impulsively now it's going to cost you MORE money, not less. For example, you can find airfare to Croatia from Germany for FAR cheaper than $114/pp. I just flew from Croatia to Germany (Karlsruhe/Baden Baden) on RyanAir for 36 Euro, and that INCLUDED all the fees including a checked bag. Without the checked bag it would've been 26, if your family can travel light and have friends in Germany you can leave your larger luggate with, you could all get to Croatia for a fraction of what you're considering spending. So take a deep breath, calm down, and spend the next few months researching in depth. You won't be saving any money by buying stuff 8 months out versus 6 months out (or even 5 months out, probably).

Sarah- My husband is the only one insisting we go to Croatia. He is only with us the first two weeks. It's June and I need 6 tickets. We plan on continuing our travels onto Italy afterward then back up north. 39€ is $51.00. For 90€ / $117 I have 6 tickets for the exact day I need them from the airport I need them from. Yes, 300€ is a lot more but is it worth the gamble to not get them and have the price go up more? I try to book low cost flights for 6 all the time and it will give me a great price for 2 or 3 then the rest of the flights are triple the price and sometimes a lot more. I know fights will go down in January for the summer but 6 is a hard number to lock in on. I'm not sure if I want to gamble with his two week window. The rest of my trip is by the seat of my pants but his portion has to be firm. Thank you-
Stacey

While I understand your concern about buying 6 tickets, I agree with Sarah. Don't buy anything else now (you asked for opinions, after all). While your dates may be firm now, so many things could happen in the course of the next year that could change everything, and budget tickets are generally not refundable. And the chances are good that you can find cheaper airfare by waiting. The budget carriers have fare sales all the time - get on the mailing list of the ones you are considering so that you get their notices. Budget was the main concern in your original post. If you didn't want opinions on this choice (because of other concerns), why did you ask for them?

From our personal experience, I would recommend that you take trains in Italy, not rent a car. Especially with a car full of kids. It will take two full time attentive adults to avoid collisions and fines by driving in the wrong areas. We were lucky enough to avoid both, but it was not easy! Extremely stressful!

The plan is: 6 weeks in Europe for a family of 6 on $12.000? It is perfectly doable in my opinion. You seem to already have the flights, and they are to/from Germany (and probably around $1000). You seem to have found a car rental deal for the whole time for $2.500. For transportation my choice would be big cities - public transport, long distance rental car. So rental car sounds good. And it should be cheaper than buying 5 or 6 train tickets, especially on longer distances.
For accommodation rental apartments are probably the most cost effective. Costs are $80, $100 to $120, $150 a day, depending on area and size and season. This august I rented 85 m^2 apartment in Istria on very very short notice for €100 a day. It was large enough to sleep a family of 6 easily. It should be cheaper than 6 bunk beds in a hostel. In high season renters love it My advice: reduce the mileage. Europe is large and you can spend 45 weeks without getting bored. Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Germany. Or Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Germany. Get some guide books from the library, watch the Rick Steves DVDs that the family council can make decisions on the places of interest. Pick 6 or 7 interesting places and get apartment as a base and explore from there. quick calculation: airfares 6000, rental car 3000, accommodation 5000 - not quite the 12000 yet, but not far from it either. You have to add the day to day expenses - food, admission fees etc. The 3000 per person that your friend did are doable for you too. verdict: there is no reason to freak out, some trimming of the itinerary maybe

I agree with Andrea that you are moving around A LOT, and then you are adding day trips on to all the moving around. It looks like a marathon, which is okay if that's what you want, but it'd be too fast and exhausting for me. My advice is to make sure you spend enough time in some of these cities to actually see them - you have a good chunk of time in Rome, for example, but then have two day trips planned, plus it looks like you are wanting to add two more day trips, which will only leave you a couple of days in Rome itself. Two days in Paris and London is awfully short as well. I think any city you are planning on doing day trips from probably deserves at least a week. That way, you have 3-4 days or so to see the city and a day or two for day trips and a day or two for travel into and out of the city. I understand the desire to get a taste of everything, but I worry that you are not really going to get a taste of anything since you are moving so fast. What if you cut Lisbon and Madrid and went straight to Paris from Venice? If it were me (and it's not), this is what I'd do: 1 week in Germany (wherever you land), 1 week Rome, 1 week Venice, 1 week Paris, 1 week London, 1 week Belgium/Netherlands (maybe 4 days in Amsterdam and 3 days in Brussels or Bruges) on the way to your flight home. (Of course, you could always do 8-9 days in one city and 4-5 in another if that suits you, but I wouldn't add any more bases.) That way, you'd be able to do day trips from all your major cities, and you'd cut down on the time you spend in the air significantly. Plus, with the Paris-London-Belgium/Netherlands connection, you can easily use the Eurostar/Thalys trains, which are easier to access (IMO) than the airports. FWIW, you seem to have made a lot of good progress since you first posted; great work!

We have decided to remove Croatia from the list. It was a tough call but I needed to get the costs down. The more I think about it the less I want to rent a car. That is a lot of driving for me and only me. I like the idea of flying from major city to major city. Then making an apartment in that city my home base and doing train day trips. With 1 adult, 2 youth, and 2 children I think the train may be affordable, plus I can rest. I really don't want to deal with traffic tickets. As much as I want to stay in cute towns, my children want to see major sights. The cost of a car to get to these cute towns plus the train to go see the major sights inside the city outweigh the savings on the lodging. This is what I have so far: Arrive in Germany spend 1 night Fly to Rome spend 1 week -day trip to Naples / Pompeii (15 hour day, Rick Steve's book says it's doable) -day trip to Pisa / Florence (may look into the cost of a tour for this) -day trip to - -day trip to - Train to Venice spend 4 nights -day trip to Verona Fly to Lisbon 3 nights Fly to Madrid 2 nights
-day trip to Pamplona to watch the running of the bulls R/T overnight train to Granada 2 nights (still on the fence about the effort and cost to do this being worth it) Fly to London 3 nights Train/ferry to Dublin 3 nights Fly to Paris 3 nights Train or Fly to Germany get rental car and finish out trip, 15 days driving around Germany. Or After 5 nights in Rome we lease a car and I drive all over Italy, Austria, Switzerland, France and Germany. Camping and staying in whatever cheap lodging we can find. Going slow and having no plan but where the road takes us. Having our largest expense be parking avoiding all toll roads in Italy.

You are still moving a lot, which will increase your expenses. You say 2 nights in Madrid, with a day trip to Pamplona. Every 2 nights you spend somewhere is equal to one full day, so your only full day in Madrid you plan to not spend it there? Venice is very expensive. Instead of doing a day trip to Verona from Venice, you might consider 2 nights in Venice and 2 nights in Verona. That would save money.

Andrea- I would only do the day trip from Madrid if I cut out Granada (that's 4 extra nights in Madrid 2 on the overnight train and 2 in Granada). Do you think I could get an apartment in Verona and Venice for 2 nights each? That was the only reason for the day trip. It's really tough finding lodging for 6 people. They will list a price of 89€ per night then add 15€-25€ extra per night person person over 2. For the exact same apartment! It's crazy, one guy wanted 980€ for 5 nights plus an extra 10€pp for linens and an extra 10€pp for ac, plus a cleaning fee and taxes. I could stay in 3 rooms at a B&B for that price. My kids looked online at Contiki tours. They want me to replicate that 45 day trip. I think the driving alone would kill me. I raised them and broke my husband into the belief that if you wanted to sleep more than the military required 4 hours per day than you could have stayed home and slept for free. I was planning 1 whole week in Rome but I've read that you're ready to move on after 3. Is this true?
I looked into the Eurostar London-Paris is was pretty expensive. The flight was much much less.

Removing Croatia is probably a step in the right direction. Now you seem to be talking about a group of 5 instead of six, so that makes driving a heck of a lot simpler. Most of even the smallest cars hold 5 if their bags are soft and squishable. True, you will be the only one driving, but you needn't go that far in a single day if you intended to visit some rural areas and smaller towns. But then again, now you're talking about only cities and "big bang" sites, so no, driving would not be an asset for you in that scenareo. When flying from place to place, keep in mind that even if you find a cheap flight, and even if your bags don't require extra steep fees, and even if the transport to & from the airports doesn't add a lot to the cost, you are still spending 6+ hours to take a 2-hour flight. I just did a quick check for trains from Munich to Venice and there is a direct train that takes 6 1/2 hours and costs 39euro/pp when bought early (the "savings" fare). Trains from Venice to Rome are also very cheap when bought 90 days ahead. No need to try Florence from Rome as a day trip. Just take an early train from Venice to Florence, spend the middle of the day there, then take the late train to Rome or vice-versa. Seeing the crooked tower in Pisa is sort of fun, but it takes 10 minutes and is pretty much all there is to do. We did it and if I could go back in time I would have removed it from our itinerary. It would be tremendously simpler to remove Spain & Portugal from your list and go from Rome to Paris (perhaps by plane), then Paris to London via the train (cool experience - buy cheaper tickets early) then fly back to Germany to end your trip. If you really are going to spend all your non-Germany time in cities, please consider driving to some smaller towns in Germany and hike a little in the Alps.

We were in this apartment in Venice in June; http://www.homeaway.co.uk/p86152 And I believe we paid between 160-180euro/night for 5 of us. It was a fantastic location - a reasonable walk from everywhere, and good free wifi. I absolutely loved Venice (so did the children) and our three days there. Verona is a cute town, but 6 hours there was plenty, and I would not consider it an essential stop in your situation. Venice is. The thing to do in Venice is to wander & explore. Just walk. It's amazing. It's hard to explain it adequately, but Venice is unique. Most other cities will blend together in your memory after a while, but Venice will stick.

Stacey - My comment about Madrid was based on your newest schedule. I think Randy is right about dropping Spain and Portugal. It is out of the way and there will be cost savings by not traveling that far. Randy got a killer deal on the apartment he mentioned in Venice. I would jump on that as soon as you have solidified your schedule. I have rented apartments for as short as 2 nights (Verona), so it can be done. I use VRBO and Homeaway, where I deal directly with the owners. Doing that, there is room for negotiation, both with the length of the stay and how much you pay. You might get an owner to waive some or all of the charges for an additional person. I never stay anywhere that charges for linens or a cleaning fee. As for Verona being only worth 6 hours, I have to disagree. I would have spent more than 2 nights there if my schedule had allowed for it. We spent 3 nights in Rome, and that was enough for us. There is a lot to do there, so I'm sure you could spend more time and not get bored.

Randy-
You are awesome. I was going to pm you about the apartment you stayed in in Venice. Your blog made it sound awesome! I only even thought about Verona from reading your blog and I told the kids. They were so excited and loved the movie "Letters to Juliette" and now have to go! My husband is still with us 4 days after Rome and Rome is the car lease pick up spot in Italy. So if I do the lease the entire time after he is gone then I would have to back track to Rome to get it. Then drop it off in Paris. It doesn't make sense to Lease in Germany as the rental price is cheaper. So if I do mass transit (including planes) for all countries except Germany and rent a car for 2 weeks there I think my transportation costs are the same as if I leased the 7 seatbelt car the entire time. In Germany we are going to visit my military friends unless they are deployed, the small village I grew up in and all the places I went as a girl scout to or on field trips to. It will be low key and relaxing. I loved the part in your blog where you talked about feeling like your bragging when mentioning your trip. I thought it was very insightful of you. Every time we mention it people ask if we have a money tree in the back yard. They even get rude about it. I now tell my kids not to bring it up except to their friends who have also been.

If you plan to lease you may have some other options. Have you decided who you would lease with? I leased with AutoEurope and their website shows Milan and Rome as the two locations in Italy. Milan would be closer for you than Rome. Or you could travel by train to Nice, France and pick up your car there. Doing that, you would not pay the extra charge for picking it up outside of France.

Not sure if you are planning to see Naples or just pass through there on way to Pompeii. If you are only going to Pompeii it is more than doable in fifteen hours. Fast train from Rome, about hour plus, train from Naples to Pompeii only half hour. Round trip total say four hours leaves you way more than enough time for Pompeii, it can be seen in four hours or so. I think the fifteen hours is too much, IMO. As previous poster, you seem to be really on track, good luck.

Stacey - you are my kind of Europe planner. My wife and I can get through most cities in less than half the time it takes most people and/or what is recommended in the RS book. You can do this if you think smartly and don't waste money on duplicate sites. Focus on the FREE walking tours in the RS books and other FREE stuff offered by the local TI. Since you are hikers, you definately want to go to the Cinque Terre. Your kids will like that. A a place like Venice is FREE to walk around too. You will definately want to picnic as much as you can. We always pick up stuff in the local grocery stores to save money. We don't eat as many fancy dinners or go to as many museums as you see in the RS videos so we save money there too. My wife and I usually eat for less than $50 a day and after the trip is over, counting eating, transportation and sight entry fees average about $100 per day. With your family of 5, at 45 days, that would be right at your budget amount of $12,000. So don't let those earlier posts discourage you. It can be done!!!

Charles,
Does your $100.00 a day include your lodging too? Or was that just food, transport and admissions?

Listen to Randy the flight tickets (e.g. From London to Paris) might be cheaper in terms of initial outlay for purchase, but that doesn't represent your total cost, which will skyrocket once you're here and have to get 5 or 6 of you from the city center of London out to the airport, and from the airport in Paris back into town. Make sure you're considering ALL the costs, not just the ticket cost. (Not to mention the time spent getting to/from airports eating into your days too.)

I have to agree with Andrea. The only reason I enjoy Rome is because I love the museums. I can easily spend an entire day in the Vatican museums and wish I had more time. Of all the towns I've been to in Italy, Rome is the only one that - for me - has no charm. I love Verona, and there is enough to see there for 2 days. Take a look at the Verona Card website for more information.

Stacey, I would pay to read your "Trip Report" when you return from your trip. You must keep a daily journal of the trip. Best of luck - hope all goes well.

Thank you! I am taking everyone's comments to heart. I am also trying to figure out how to blog. :) I thought it would be fun to blog our trip and the things we do leading up to raise the funds. Like yesterday I made my daughter scalp an extra ticket to Discovery Kingdom she had outside the park for $30. Or after I dropped my iPhone in a cup of OJ I was fully prepared to have to go get a new one. Then I soaked it rice last night and today it worked! Another $175 toward my trip. :) I'm going to close this thread and start a new one with my new current plan. Again thank you for everyone's input!

Stacey - I want to be able to access your blog. What a great idea to include your pre-trip fund raisers, etc.

We take a milk carton and dump all our change into it at the end of everyday. We just added it all up- $220 after 6 months! Adding it to the Europe fund!