Here's another of the periodic reminders that the news gets potential travelers worried about the wrong things, like terrorism and protests. This article shows that the major causes of American travelers being hurt or killed abroad are car accidents and drownings:
http://theconversation.com/no-americans-shouldnt-fear-traveling-abroad-118305
If you're worried about safety issues in Europe, your best bet is to take the train!
Well back in 2007 my husband drove into a Spanish person's home. Luckily not much more damage than some of the stucco cladding falling off. The people flew out of their house, yelling in Spanish. He gestured and said, in English, "I don't care, its a rental!". I said "Honey, its not the car they're worried about." Somehow this was MY fault, and still is.
We had a one week rental right across the road and police never arrived.
When the question of terrorism, riots, etc., is raised I frequently have argued that the average person is very poor at risk assessment and the most dangerous activity they will engage in is the drive to the airport. But that doesn't change many minds. The yellow jackets will get them in Paris.
I never drive in Europe, never have. Renting a car is not an option while traveling in Germany.
In France and Germany I have walked into, bumped into protests, demonstrations, etc just as I have in SF....so?
I'm renting a car more now than I used to, primarily because I'm building itineraries that require a car. I'm no more worried about driving a car there than here (possible exception Italy) and less worried about my personal safety in a city center in Europe than I would be in the U.S.
“Car accidents” include those suffered by pedestrians, as well as by drivers and their passengers. In my opinion, the danger of driving is grossly exaggerated, especially by some posters on this site. Just as getting a realistic assessment of terrorism threats would require a statistical analysis, the dangers of car accidents also needs a much more nuanced evaluation. How many tourists are injured in or by cars? In which countries? On superhighways or in towns? Most importantly, what is the % injured out of all who visit in one year? If the biggest danger is being hit by a car while crossing a street, avoiding driving is no prophylactic.
You are missing the point. The point is that regardless of the analysis the probability of being injured in a car accident is far greater (how much may be debatable) than the probability of injury from terrorist attack, protests, mobs, etc. The principle danger to an American tourist (or Canadian or any other) is an auto accident -- taxi, bus, etc. And not the dangers that many worry about -- terrorists, muggings, protests, etc. Crossing a multi-lane street in Rome with the green light is high on the list. Find that nun and walk quickly behind her. And do not stop moving. Stationary target are easier to hit.
Well, I guess I found what intimidates me about travel.
And when I drove out of Palermo, my greatest fear was hitting a pedestrian - they will pop out between parked cars and strut across a street assuming any oncoming vehicles will stop or swerve (depending on the width of the street) for them.
I’ll continue to rent a car for most of my trips because I like being able to stop at those small out of the way places that are only worth a 10 minutes stop, and that few tourists ever get to. Many are not accessible by public transportation.
I dont disagree, that on the whole, the world is a safe place, I sort of take exception to the over generalization and the definition of "safe". My threshold for safe isnt about life vs death. Was it a safe trip if you got mugged, beaten and robbed? Hey, but you lived! Then there is location. Sorry, by my definition of safe a sunset walk in downtown Tegucigalpa isnt safe. Then there is consideration of who you are. A woman walking alone late at night may or may not be safe. A Jew in certain Paris neighborhoods may or may not be safe. A gay couple hand in hand in Moscow might be pushing the threshold.
I sit writing this on a street corner in Kyiv and I have a long walk home well after sunset. Will I be safe. I dont think I will be murdered. So I'm safe? Wait, I think? Or I feel safe? Worthless emotions. Only reality matters. But if I come home robbed and beaten, or another Russian political defector is blown up in his car 100 feet away from me; then statistically it was a safe evening.
Let me recap, in the big picture, traveling the world in 2019 is safe. Your analysis is just flawed.
Oh, then your premis is that no one heeded warnings and still so few died? Or could it be that most heeded warnings and as a result so few died. Then we have the kid freed by the North Koreans. He died in the US, as a result of his beatings, but he wont show up in your statistics. Or the American that offended the family of his wife to be and ended up in jail. Statistically he has had many years of safe holidays in an Iranian prison.
James, is there a point to either of your postings? If there is, it escaped me. What are you smoking in Kylv? And how is it even closely related to the OP original question ?
This article shows that the major causes of American travelers being hurt or killed abroad are car accidents and drownings:
I'm not surprised, except maybe for the drowning part.
Frank, maybe I didnt read the posted article close enough. It quoted death statistics to validate "safety". I dont doubt that on the whole you are probably safer, or as safe, traveling as staying home. But the article didnt demonstrate that unless the only measure is death. If you look at all the terrorism statistics for instance, for every 1 killed, 3 are injured. And the article doesn't begin to discuss the definition of safe. It's really poorly done. And it's not what I am smoking, it's what I am drinking.
The article "No, Americans shouldn’t fear traveling abroad" assumes death is the only thing to be afraid of. Then it closes with "We believe the public needs to understand the facts behind complex issues" after boiling safety down to, to die or not to die. IThere was really no attempt to deal with a complex issue.
it states the death rate has gone down, but doesn't attempt to explain why. Has the worldwide murder rate gone down. Someone could as easily state that the deaths of US tourists have gone down because of the new State Department safety ranking system and people using it. Its journalism with out value.
The OP leads off with "Biggest danger of foreign travel is car accidents" which overstates the article. Deaths by auto are primary, marginally so (167 vs 132 homicides in 2018) but death and danger are not equivalent. And the auto number includes getting rundown by a car, so, and I didnt count, murder may be higher than being killed in a car. To simplistic a study.
I wish people were more afraid of traveling to Europe so it would be less crowded. I wish people would develop a huge fear of cruise ships. I love driving in France and Italy, the drivers are way better than here in L.A. I doubt I am in any more danger than while at home.
But I still fail to see the points of your postings. Simple question -- In your opinion what is the greatest threat/danger or opportunity for bodily injury to an American tourist or any tourist for that matter traveling in Europe? As you know, whenever a terrorist event occurs, postings the next day will raise questions as to how "safe" is it to go and should the trip be cancelled because of terrorists threats. Look at all of the discussion around the yellow jackets in Paris. So, are you trying to maintain that my statement -- "greatest risk to bodily harm is the drive to the local airport" -- is in error? or not factually supportable?
Frank, fair question. The greatest danger comes from thinking Europe is a singular whole and that it is identical to a singular whole US. I believe the odds of getting killed are nill to nothing in all the worlds major tourist zones if you have just a tiny bit of common sense and do a tiny bit of research before you leave. I beat up the logic of the article, not necessarily the end conclusion if you limit it to the most common tourist destinations, for the most common traveler.
I can’t resist adding, in response to the accusation was missing the point, that the odds of being injured in a car accident, like those of being injured by an act of terrorism, are miniscule.. My point was that many posters grossly exaggerate both dangers. Again, common sense would dictate that dangers of both vary a lot among countries, and among regions of any one country.
I haven't seen a lot of exageration on the forum. I've seen a lot of "it worries me" and "should I go" and "is it safe" sorts of questions and seen mostly positive responses. But a few have different tolerances and if in going they don't enjoy the trip, well then they should look some place else. But I'm not going to put them down for it. Right now there are people choosing to stay away from Egypt. I don't think that's an unreasonable decision. I would go, but that doesn't make me any more correct
If you want to convey that traveling is safe I think it's best expressed in a lot more detail than "it won't kill you".
"But a few have different tolerances." True. "Safe" has a relative definition. I don't only look at what Americans view as "safe" in what ever way it is meant or asked.
What about levels of tolerance on safety by other nationalities?
Places are swamped by international tourists, well, such as in 2015 (my last time in Budapest) when I saw Asian tour groups at Castle Hill. These were the Mandarin Chinese.
The year before in 2014 across from the Parliament building was a Korean bus group which I saw.
Fred, good point, but the forum is primarily a US audience. Although even that varies a lot.
I've read here that Egypt is a safe place to visit. That to be worried is an over reaction. I have an Egyptian Christian employee who we just successfully secured a green card for. She wrote all of her coworkers and her boss that for the first time in her life she feels safe. Hard to beat the feeling we all had when reading those words.
I have a couple of other employees who if they tried to live in their country of birth in the same manner that they live in the US would be at great risk.
I also know a guy that enjoys high altitude sky diving ... he says it's safe. We call him Splat.
@ James...Very interesting on the Egyptian Christian woman. Is she Coptic? If so, even more interesting from the standpoint of religious history.
Coptic yes.
The economy is so good, unemployment so low and US citizen engineering graduates so rare that we have had to hire a lot of foreign nationals. Hearing their concept of safe is revealing.
Well again it’s relative. The Coptic minority in Egypt has been targeted by awful acts of violence, and face real dangers. The US is likely a very safe alternative for them, and I’m extremely happy for them.
A transgender American in the Deep South might feel a bit differently about how safe the US, though. As might an African American who is routinely harassed by the police, or a young woman on a military base where sexual assaults might be a problem. I don’t wish to invalidate anyone’s sense of where they may feel safe and where they might not, or even compare something like the bombing of a Coptic church in Cairo or Alexandria to getting harassed on public transit in London because you’re with your same-sex partner. But different people are denied the opportunity to feel safe and comfortable in all manner of different ways.
Ultimately, I do appreciate the premise of the article. We often see even in here comments about whether it’s safe to travel to certain places because a terrorism incident, strike, or protest makes the news. It can seem strange to read such comments when considering the crime rates or even run if the mill traffic, workplace, and at-home accident risk that might exist when traveling nowhere at all, or just down the street to the grocery story.
There’s no harm in being informed and aware of risks and circumstances, current states of affair and climates, but often enough being informed and aware should actually help us feel more at ease and assured we are quite safe on our travels.
As usual, we have good points being brought up by both forum veterans and noobs - thank you for your thoughts.
I want to tie them back to the topic of accidents and driving in my OP:
Driver training courses (I happen to be reviewing a motorcycling guidebook and various rider magazines presently) introduce the topic of 'panic stops' and defensive driving by emphasizing that an alert operator who is paying attention and reacting accordingly to conditions around them is going to drastically reduce the likelihood of a sudden catastrophe that comes down to habits [reactions] and luck to survive, because an attentive operator is looking far enough ahead to prevent bad things from developing in the first place.
The common exclamation "I didn't have time to react!" is very often a rationalization of "My attention was elsewhere" or "I was moving faster than I was thinking". [If you'd been ready to apply the brakes before that blind turn, you would have stopped 40 feet sooner]
As with safety behind the wheel, so with safety while traveling as a tourist/traveler/etc. If your attention is where it needs to be and your preparation was sufficient, you are much less likely to run into trouble in the first place.
I don't think anyone will argue with me about that (ha! of course you will) but take it a step further: when we're traveling, we are usually on vacation. "On vacation" by many people's definition means taking it easy and not having to worry about things that you normally worry about -- not just no cleaning the dishes or the shopping but no (or minimal) adulting at all.
~Acting responsibly is for people who aren't on vacation, amirite?~
So if your mindset and your situation is all trending toward letting it all hang out, then why expect whatever is hanging out won't get clipped?
We've reached this point in the many many postings regarding pickpocketing before: why do things differently while away from how you do them at home, because when you're away you are unable to 'read' the environs as well as you can at home and you can more easily be spotted by the pros. But it's more than that: you are on vacation, so you shouldn't have to be being careful and attentive because only people who aren't on vacation should have to be careful and attentive.
(This is why RS has settled on the final version of his pitch for using a moneybelt and small wallet/purse -- so that you don't have to be careful and attentive, and when a stranger's hand is in your pocket you can treat it like part of the adventure.)
Pile on top of this the mass media attention focus on terrorism and manifs and you have a perfect storm of the spotlight that brightens up the wrong thing in the scene.
And yet US tourism abroad will hit a record high this year. So, are we really overreacting? I dont think so.
I have read some where that we only 50% or less of our IQ when we are on holiday (sorry cant remember where I read that) but I see it being proved on a regular basis. Tourist groups walking along with half of them walking in the road, people standing in the middle of the road talking photos, then looking at what they have taken before moving, trying to work out a foreign currency and in the process showing any one in the near area that they have hundreds of pounds in their wallet. Scary
Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but once again, I remind people to look at the statistics. The very fact that American tourism is predicted to reach a record high suggests that the odds of being injured in a terrorist incident, or a car accident, for that matter, are even lower. Again, being hit by a car has no relation to having an accident while driving, except, perhaps, lack of attentiveness.
The often-raised question of safety needs more specifics. Being pickpocketed is not the same as being killed by a terrorist attack, the odds of the former being enormously higher than that of the latter. Lumping them together under the rubric of “safety” does nothing to help people think clearly. I think the author of the cited article raised car accidents to contrast mundane events with rare, but headline grabbing ones, not to suggest that one shouldn’t drive in Europe.
The good news is that one can reduce the chances of being a victim of the less dire events. Being attentive to your surroundings is probably the #1 best piece of advise for avoiding trouble. Taking common sense measures like keeping valuables in places not accessible to thieves and learning rules of the road and meanings of road signs all fall into that category. I’ll add not planning to drive in major cities, also.
Now, back to dire events. Other than staying out of war zones, there isn’t much one can do to avoid them. Think: could the federal employees in Oklahoma City have done anything to avoid being victims of the home-grown terrorists there? The point of terrorism is to terrify. So stay home if you are terrified by what seems to be the tone of life in the 21st century. And maybe stay out of federal buildings. Otherwise, travel and enjoy.
"Hearing their concept of safety is revealing." Exactly...totally agree in light of what has happened in the last few years in Egypt.
On US tourism topping this year....Good! .How much of that is going overseas? To China, Europe, Japan, Latin America?
Rosalyn, nicely put. Except maybe;
The very fact that American tourism is predicted to reach a record
high suggests that the odds of being injured in a terrorist incident,
or a car accident, for that matter, are even lower.
Took me a minute to grasp that logic, but I finally did. But what I think it really means is that there really is no general fear of traveling and the article sought to provide a solution to a non existant problem. For, if there were a fear that needed to be resolved, tourism would be going down, not up. Just someone drumming up nothing so they could get paid solving it. To be helpful someone might want to look for those few unanticipated situations in culture or circumstance where advice might be helpful.
We take the train whether we are home or abroad. Always great advice when public transport is excellent!
This article shows that the major causes of American travelers being
hurt or killed abroad are car accidents and drownings:
http://theconversation.com/no-americans-shouldnt-fear-traveling-abroad-118305If you're worried about safety issues in Europe, your best bet is to
take the train!
As we know, distracted driving is a major cause of serious accidents domestically, and the danger is only amplified when travelling, with the inevitable temptation to look at a GPS device while possibly driving on the opposite side of the road from what one is used to: https://www.sallymorinlaw.com/road-safety/distracted-driving/
Public transportation is indeed a much safer option!
“Just the facts, ma'am.” Here's a report on tourist accidents in the EU dated 1999:
https://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_projects/2001/injury/fp_injury_2001_frep_10_en.pdf
Edgar,
This is awesome! Thank you!
The US State Department tracks American deaths in foreign countries:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/death-abroad1/death-statistics.html
The data base reports 8 American deaths in France between Jan 2019 and Dec 2019 with suicide responsible for 3 of the 8 and other accident for 4 of 8. Auto accident was the cause of only 1 of 8.
Date City Cause of Death
01/23/2018 Nantes - Loire-Atlantique Veh. Accid-Auto
03/01/2018 Marsan - Gers Suicide
03/13/2018 Albertville - Savoie Other Accident
06/08/2018 Kaysersberg - Haut-Rhin Suicide
06/20/2018 Petit-Bornand-Les-Glieres - Haut-Savoie Other Accident
07/21/2018 Montpellier - Herault Other Accident
09/30/2018 Paris - Ile de France Suicide
10/31/2018 Sancoins - Centre-Val de Loire Other Accident
The most dangerous thing that people do, even in their home communities is drive a car. My wife almost had a head on collision a few miles from our home because another vehicle was passing on a curve with a yellow line. She slammed on her brakes just in time.
Most of Europe is rather safe to drive, but different countries have different driving cultures. Italy is more chaos than Germany or the UK.
Outside of Europe, some of the worst places I have ever been (didn't drive) is Egypt, Thailand, India and most of the Middle East.
If you visit Egypt try to be on the highways in the largest vehicle you can find, since in the event of a collision you have more protection.
As someone who has had to brake hard to avoid hitting an elk that was wandering into a parking lot of the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, I wouldn't be surprised if the big road danger wasn't true for domestic trips as well.
And as a person who lives in a Florida beach area, I'll say it's impressive how many people will disregard a double red flag at the beach (water closed to everyone except surfers leashed to a board; cops may issue a public safety fine to enforce) and even go back into the water once a cop or lifeguard walks away from them 'because I paid a lot for this trip and I'm going swimming in the Gulf'. If you look at the drowning statistics around here, about 90-95% of the deaths are people from out of stat who disregard warning and closure flags, a really disproprotionate number when you consider the ratio of tourist and locals use of the beaches.
Edgar — interesting to see that list of “cold statistics” and immediately recognize that the June suicide in Kaysersberg was Anthony Bourdain.
(Just a note that you have a typo in your summary language with the reference to “2019.” In the list, it’s correctly noted that these are 2018.)
@selkie: People who ignore warnings are 1) idiots 2) mostly young males.
In 2017, a young man visited Yellowstone. He ignored the warnings and walked off the boardwalk. He fell into a mudpit and boiled to death in about 5 seconds.
Multiple cases of tourists in Yellowstone who jump the fences, take a selfie, and fall into the canyon.
In SD where I live, an young man was driving with 2 girls. There was a "road closed" sign, and he drover around it. About 100 yds down the road, there was an exposed pipe with a 5 ft drop.
So, yes, in so many cases, the stupid, it burns.
“If you're worried about safety issues in Europe, your best bet is to take the train!” That’s a little misleading. Avi, you back up your statement with an article which refers to world travel, not Europe specifically, and the article does not break down incidents per continent, never mind regions or countries.
Over the last ten years, for example, I’ve driven in a small number of countries for a few days or longer. Unless directly affected, the number of deaths by automobile accident is paltry for such large numbers of travellers, and tend to mirror Edgar’s example of France in 2018. Austria had 18 deaths in that ten year period, only two of which were related to automobile accidents. I’d be more concerned about the suicide rates.
Gendersen et al, see the recent link above to the EU report, which concurs that auto accidents, drownings, and mountain activities account for most of the casualties, and that the rates for tourists in these categories are higher than for residents.
Thanks again to everyone else who contributed to this thread, and a fresh reminder that the context of the original post involved the perpetual hand-wringing, mostly by noobs, about whether terror incidents and protests are making someplace too dangerous to tour.
I think that part of the perception of safety around issues like getting pickpocketed arise from the indirect consequences when abroad, such as losing a passport, or a wallet with all your bank cards, while on a tight itinerary that will be completely wrecked if you need to take 2-3 days to solve the whole mess and get new emergency travel documents.
Unless I’m staying in one place, or large cities, I always get a rental car. It’s nice being able to stop at some unexpected sight, or visit a really out of the way place.
The topic of this discussion thread is "Biggest danger of foreign travel is car accidents". I agree with that statement. A country in Europe, in which driving or being a passenger in an automobile is dangerous, is GREECE. Very many people die from injuries in automobile crashes in Greece. I guess most of that was caused by aggressive driving by Greek people. I drove a rental car in Greece (not in a big city). It was a frightening experience for me. I decided to not drive a car at Greece again.
Incidentally, I enjoyed reading the reply posted by James E, dated June 8, 2019 at 1:33 PM. James said "... statistically he has had many years of safe holidays in an Iranian prison". Yes, I have been suspicious of some statistics. I do not know why I did not see this discussion thread topic, in June.
