Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest - Right amount of days?

We did Prague (6 days) Vienna (2 days) Budapest (3 days) and wished we had spent more time in Budapest. It is an amazing city if you can add a day, do it in Budapest! If you are able to see Cesky Kremlov you should definitely add that somehow, we stopped on the way to Vienna from Prague and even for 4 hours it was worth it. An overnight there would have been awesome. Simply gorgeous.

Six cities in 14.5 days is a manic pace. You have sensibility allowed a day per transfer - you will get some time to sightsee on transfer days, but moving on is time consuming.

Berlin is one of the most fascinating cities in Europe and the highlights could be squeezed into 4 full days plus another for Sachsenhausen concentration camp.

Prague and Budapest need at least 3 full days each. Of your other proposed destinations, I prefer Vienna, which needs 2 full days minimum. I would suggest that you reconsider your other two destinations to avoid feeling rushed.

If you are travelling this May rather than 2018, book trains and flights asap for the best prices and availability.

Some might find that Vienna, Berlin, Budapest are all a bit short of time.
Perhaps drop Salzburg and Munich, but include Dresden.

Day 1: Berlin (Arrive before noon)
Day 2: Berlin
Day 3: Berlin
Day 4: Berlin
Day 5: Berlin to Dresden
Day 6: Dresden
Day 7: Dresden to Prague
Day 8: Prague
Day 9: Prague
Day 10: Prague to Vienna
Day 11: Vienna
Day 12: Vienna
Day 13: Vienna to Budapest
Day 14: Budapest
Day 15: Budapest
Day 16: Budapest
Day 17: Flight back (early)

ps. You have x2 Day 8. above.

Thanks for the Dresden suggestion, that might be the one I will go with. Munich does seem out of the way and eats up a travel day.

After reading through some posts in these forums, it seems like a good idea to add extra days in Berlin and Vienna than what I had.

Yep, keeps you travelling in a straight line. Enjoy.

djp_syd’s plan makes good sense. Another trip that opens up some smaller towns would be:

1. Arrive Berlin
2. Berlin
3. Berlin
4. Berlin to Prague
5. Prague
6. Prague
7. Prague to Cesky Krumlov
8. Cesky Krumlov to Vienna
9. Vienna
10. Vienna / Melk / Wachau Valley
11. Vienna
12. Vienna to Gyor / Pannonhalma Archabbey
13. Gyor to Budapest
14. Budapest
15. Budapest
16. Budapest / Szentendre
17. Budapest
18. Trip Home

You need three days in each place, so keep Munich and Salzburg out of it. The sleeper train (23:58-06:55) from Prague to Vienna might be a good idea, as it gives you back half a day. Don't even think about Krumlov. Way too overcrowded, touristy and full of daytrippers.

Marcus, I hope you don't mind, but I am going to quote you in a new post re day tripping.

If crowds are an issue, then skip Prague too. It's a mad house most of the year. Cesky Krumlov, when we visited 3 years ago, was as bad as Prague till about 2:30 or so, then cleared out till about 10 am the next day. Thats why i wouldnt do a day trip, but the over night works. A lot is dependent on the date. May will be less crowded than June, July, August. The other reason for me is i dont want to spend the better part of a day on a train and Cesky Krumlov breaks that up. If i werent going to break it up that way i would go from Prague direct to Budapest on Czech Air for about $120. Then go WNW to Vienna from Budapest.

A lot of people are skipping Prague because it is allegedly crowded. Certain parts of Prague are crowded. But so are the certain parts of Budapest, Rome, not to mentioned Venice, Florence etc. Almost all big cities have parts which are crowded, sometimes even small towns like Cesky Krumlov, Halstatt, Rothenburg. Of course there is a reason for it. If you want uncrowded city go to Detroit, Katowice, Ostrava etc. If you want to see the most attractive parts of Prague, Venice, Florence, etc. get up early and you will have it just for yourself (almost). Prague has many other beautiful parts and neighborhoods which you can visit later while in certain parts of Old Town, Mala Strana, Hradcany (Castle) are hordes of tourists. Don't go to Cesky Krumlov just for a day trip. Stay overnight and you will enjoy it. However I must admit that when I saw it recently it's on the path of disneyfication where Rothenburg was some years ago.
I still remember when I visited C.K. first time in 1975 in February. Quiet under snow, not too many lights, many buildings needed fix, absolutely no tourists (not even me, I was looking for job there). I was staying in hotel Mestansky dum on the square. Everything was so old and authentic there. Not because it was made for tourists but because communists did not have money to change it - e.g. modernize it. Fortunately. Many other small towns in C.R. were not so lucky. Cesky Krumlov has had always that fairy tale magic of history but what was different in 1975 was the authenticity and no tourists whatsoever.
Like they were saying Krakow is next Prague (little bit exaggerated nevertheless some true in it, too), so I am saying: You want to see future Cesky Krumlov? Go to Loket (near Karlovy Vary). Castle on the rocky hill with cliffs, medieval little town around, river from three sides. Hurry, before it's disneyfied. too. Very few tourists. I was alone in the hotel which could accommodate 40 guests. The owner was so happy to have at least one guest that he personally made me breakfast according to my wishes. One of the best I ever had.

One of the coolest things about Prague, is by wandering 1 or 2 blocks off the beaten path and you could be the only people on the street. To me, Prague was no different than anywhere else, there will be a crowd at the major attractions.

Kevin
Getting off the beaten path is a way to avoid the crowds. But let’s face it; Prague is a mess because what 90% of the tourist go to Prague to see is crammed in a couple of tiny districts. To skip it, would be like going to Rome and not seeing the Coliseum. So unless not seeing the things that made Prague famous is your thing, Prague as a tourist destination is a “crunch”. But some, many, most (?), think the tradeoff is worth the effort. I do. I think you can cover the stuff in the crunch zones in two full days. Then head to the back streets and get away from the mass.

As you point out, Budapest has its crunch zones too. Fortunately Budapest’s crunch zones have nothing on them but tourist shopping. Avoid the Gozsdu Courtyard and the heart of District V, especially Vaci utca; and more often than not you will be able to dance on the sidewalks with your significant other.

Another option to Cesky K is Telč. Serves the same purpose of breaking up a long haul. There are direct busses or a shuttle (4 people, $200). I haven't been, but its been on my list for a while.

Ilja, I have heard that Krakow is going the way of Cesky Krumlov. Too many tourists and too little infrastructure. You might have to go all the way to Lviv to see something fresh and unencumbered. Fortunately there are some new direct flights into Lviv starting this winter. Of course, that will bring tourists and we will have to go yet further afield.

I would not compare Krakow and Cesky Krumlov. C.K. is a small picturesque town, Krakow is a relatively big city. I haven't been to Lvov (Polish spelling) but I know it's about similar size. Lvov was in Austrian-Hungarian Empire, then it was in Poland, then Stalin decided it will be in the Soviet Union, after collapse of USSR it's in Ukraine. But it does not look like other cities in Ukraine because of it's different history.
By the way, James, "Then go north to Vienna from Budapest". Well, if you go north you get among others to Banska Bystrica but not to Vienna. To get there - go west, young man (easy to remember).
Edit: Ha, James, I can see that you corrected the direction.

"...uncrowded city go to...Katowice, Ostrava, etc." Historically, if Ostrava is the one I think it is, ie Mährisch Ostrau, then I'll go see that place, likewise with Katowice, if everything is fine on this upcoming trip, (playing that part by ear), I'll be in Katowice for a few hours. Lvov was known then in the Empire as Lemberg. A good friend of mine went there from Kiev by train in 2006 because he want to see if traces of the old Lemberg were still to be found. Lemberg was Austrian, Polish, Jewish. in its historical background.

Ilja

The only comparison I made between CK and Krakow had to do with the tourism increasing.

As for the name Lviv, the history is fascinating, but with all that’s going on in the world, I’m not real comfortable with identifications that can be manipulated in divisive ways. I am more "aware" now than I use to be. Russia has been using those tactics to make claim to parts of the Ukraine, Georgia, and now the Baltic states. I do recognize that at least a third of the Liviv Oblast inhabitants are native Polish speakers. But then about a third of all Estonians are native Russian speakers. If you are following what is going on in the world you will see the trap. Lviv hasn’t been part of anything called “Poland” in about 250 years with the exception of about a 20 year period between the wars.

During Euromaidan the Lviv City and Oblast governments stood as Ukrainian and provided support to the struggle. More recently the 3rd Territorial Defense Battalion, a volunteer battalion from Lviv, has served in the war against the Russian backed separatists in the Donbass region of Ukraine. I am sure there are those who wish for something else, but the city is pretty Ukraine-ized.

The prominent architecture and that which gives Lviv its appearance is less than 150 years old and dates to the Hapsburg period; a prosperous time for most of the region. Lviv went from 30K to over 200k inhabitants in the period. But it’s a style indicative of the period and is common, with regional variations, across Europe. What little remains of pre-war Kyiv looks similar, as does that which you can see in places as distant from each other as Vienna, Prague, Belgrade and Budapest. It’s just well preserved in Lviv, and quaint in its presentation.

My real point was that Lviv is still free of being overly “touristed” (new word) and worth seeing before that changes.

And I like Fred's ideas.

Oh, and I have acquaintances in Hungary that insist on calling cities in Romania by their pre Trianon Hungarian names; and I tell them to let it go too. What seems sort of interesting, amusing, or…. to us, is a big deal to them and I don’t want to seem to support the notion. Slovakia became so nervous on the subject that they have passed laws limiting the use of the Hungarian language within its borders. If you were to put in print the pre Trianon Hungarian name for a Slovakian town you could get a pretty hefty fine.

In this I absolutely agree with you, James. Many areas, nations, towns used to belong to different countries in different times and which time should be decisive where it should belong now? Let's leave it where it is now or wars would never end. Alaska? Or the whole USA? Finland? Kosovo? West Bank? Czech Republic? Slovakia? And I can go and go.
When I wrote Lvov it was not because I thought it should belong to Poland. Besides Polish spelling would be Lwow. I know Ukrainians spell it Lviv but in all my life until recently it was spelled Lvov. I would compare it to these examples: Prague - correctly Praha, Vienna - correctly Wien, Florence - correctly Firenze, Naples - correctly Napoli, etc., so why not Lvov - correctly Lviv.
And I agree with you and Fred - why not to visit Ostrava, Katowice and other formerly heavy industry centers. They are rapidly improving their environments, culture etc., but still they are cheap and untouristy.

Fred, what's now Ostrava consists of two parts: Moravian Ostrava (in German Maehrisch Ostrau) and Silesian Ostrava. It is third largest city in the Czech Republic - almost as big as Brno - and in area I think is even larger. What many people don't know it has more greenery than other big cities in C.R. And nowadays when you take a white shirt to walk in Ostrava you come home (hotel) and it is still white. I remember times when you came back and your shirt was gray in less than one hour. And also when I was coming by train toward Ostrava I could smell that typical smell of Ostrava 15 to 20 miles away. Not any more. Progress is indeed unstoppable.

@ Ilja...Your historical points are well taken with "where does it end?" Before 1914, or 1871, or the Congress of Vienna? How about Silesia before Frederick the Great? On Katowice: Granted my observation is rather dated (pushing 20 years !), I passed through its train station in 2001 from Krakow to Berlin, (an eye opener), the first stop after departing from Krakow, saw coal on coal wagons sitting on the tracks. Seeing that helps you realize why the town was fought over aside from it being the province capital of Upper Silesia.

Thanks for the info on Ostrava, interesting. I pointed out to Mährisch Ostrau (that part of Ostrava) because of its role in the Sudentenland crisis. But one doesn't have to look at that grim history to go see Ostrava, prior to WW1 it was part of the Habsburg realm, likewise with Lemberg. Even though it was known as the CSSR, I should have seen more of that country in the 1970s, instead of only Prague.

"Ostrava, prior to WW1 it was part of the Habsburg realm" - as the whole area which is now Czech Republic.
My grandma who was born in 1890 spoke fluent German and Czech but when she wrote it was in German because she had her schooling in German language. She was a telegraphist in Vienna before she got married. When I was about 9 years old she taught me Morse code. When they were teaching us that later in Pionyr (something like Scout here) I already knew it. So when asked who taught me Morse code I said - Grandma and got in trouble for that because grandmas were not perceived as somebody teaching you Morse code - so I was labeled disrespectful and smart ass. It took intervention of my parents to straighten things up.

Ilja, Fred; interesting discussion as off the topic as it is. Thanks.

Thank you James. I will try to be better. But you are in it with us. You gave us bad example.

Oh, this one is definitely all my fault. But it was so interesting it was hard not to go with it.

Very interesting and enlightening story, Ilja, of grandma and her secondary ed. esp in light of the year of her birth, (I noticed that in particular) being in both wars. It shows that among the educated classes of the subject nationalities (and they were), Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovene, Croat, Jewish, there was a certain linguistic unity which basically lasted until the collapse of the Soviet bloc. Aside from all the politics and wars (where one can really delve into and be enmeshed), on a linguistic/cultural level, I experienced some of that in Prague in 1973 and as did friends of mine who went to Budapest in the 1970s.

In 1973 in Prague for close to a week, I had no problems using German, eg, in the hostel, (where it was booked up), student dorm, the main train station (hl n), ordering in a restaurant or those deli looking shops, the Cedoc (?) tour, At the official money exchange, the old woman I encountered didn't care which language you used as long as you did the mandatory minimum exchange amount in Travelers Checks required for each day of your visit, ie a six day visit meant your exchanged more than a five day visit. (What if I don't spend all that money? Too bad, exchange it anyway.). Of course, that wasn't said, but knowing the mandatory minimum required in Soviet bloc countries, you got the drift.

My friends who went to BP, speaking only Spanish, English and French, had a very frustrating time there, aside from the commie red tape, were asked often if they knew German, since any Hungarian in a uniform only spoke German (if you were lucky) as a foreign language, certainly no Romance language.

Fred, very interesting observation. The second language all around Central Europe in generation of my grandparents was German. In generation of my parents - German, sometimes also French. In my generation - Russian, sometimes little bit of German and English. In generation of my son - English. Easy for us Americans to travel, right?

@ James..."as off the topic as it is." True, as it relates to the OP ( I'm guilty there) but geographically on target. Thanks for the enlightening comments on pre-Trianon...revealing too. Historically, I can understand it but then the intellectual aspect runs up against the emotional. "They" are focused on the emotional. Trianon reveals how draconian the Allies were in pursuing an ideological war (be it diplomatically). So, I had better not let slip saying "Bratislava" instead of "Pozsony." the next time I am in BP, which was the administrative province capital.

Yes Fred, in BP remember Poszony and in Wien Pressburg. Poszony (or Bratislava) was not only capital of province but for over hundred years also of Hungary when BP was occupied by Turks. Poszony or Pressburg got name Bratislava sometime early in 20. century. Even now many of old people are trilingual: Slovak, German, Hungarian. Young generation - English.

The old Hungarian names for the places in the lost territories are generally only used by extreme right wing fanatics. So if you use those names you will be thought to be an extremist; and possibly treated accordingly.

@ James....The Hungarian names for pre-Trianon Hungary, ie Hereditary Hungary (the Czechs use that name for Bohemia), are beyond my linguistic capability, since I can't pronounce them anyway. I meant using "Pozsony" as a joke.

@ Ilja...As I've mentioned here on the forum, my first introduction to the CSSR known then in July of 1973 was arriving at Praha hl n. and pertaining to language I saw the sign pointing to exchange counter. It was tri-lingual...Czech (obviously), German (traditionally and the lingua franca then ) and Russian ( for the Army troops stationed there). Since I couldn't read Cyrillic and didn't know the Czech word either, I relied on the German, "Wechselstube" On the use of "Pressburg" recall the Treaty of Pressburg after Austerlitz. We anglicize the word from the original "Preßburg."

The old Hungarian names for the places in the lost territories are
generally only used by extreme right wing fanatics. So if you use
those names you will be thought to be an extremist; and possibly
treated accordingly.

The local Wikipedias use the most often documented name in modern publications, and in the Hungarian Wikipedia many once Hungarian places use the Hungarian name. So, these Hungarian names are obviously still in use in Hungary.
But it's the same here in Germany: it's politically incorrect to use old German names for places which were once part of Germany, but it's perfectly OK to use German names for places that were never part of Germany. Which means you must use a new, sometimes only 60 year old name, instead of the 600+ year old German name for a city that was founded by Germans and ethnically German since the Middle Ages. So, as an example, Neapel (Naples/Napoli) is politically correct, Breslau (Wroclaw) is not.

Can't speak to Wikipedia and Hungary isn't Germany, so German cultural norms aren't applicable. What I do know is that if you hear a Hungarian talking about his last trip to Kolozsvár he probably belongs to a group adamant in reuniting the Hungarian Empire by any means necessary. This isn't a small fringe either.

@Ilya

Thank you for the suggestion of Loket. We went there yesterday and stayed overnight. It is possibly the prettiest place that I have been in the Czech Republic. We stayed in the Penzion Masonic and the breakfast was absolutely fantastic. I will be raving about Loket to my guests this year. The castle is really interesting and weird and the village is just truly gorgeous. Thanks!

Marcus,
I am glad you liked it. It is really a beautiful place and I hope it will be spared disneyfication. If you haven't been to Lipnice nad Sazavou - that's another pretty place. Castle on the hill and village around. There is a museum of Jaroslav Hasek author of Good Soldier Schweik. He wrote the novel in the local pub. There is his grave in Lipnice. He died of liver failure being only forty years old and unfortunately did not finish his novel Good Soldier Schweik. He liked beer and other drinks too much. If it's hot and you want a swim there are several old quarries with crystal clear water in the woods around. To get there by public transport from Prague - by bus to Humpolec then another bus. Or by train to Svetla nad Sazavou or Havlickuv Brod then by bus. It can be done as a day trip if you are in a hurry.

@ Ilja...I've seen that book in German translation and Signet Paperbacks used to publish the English translation. It's so Central European, so typical of the Habsburg Empire. You COULD even make the argument that if ALL soldiers were like the "good soldier (der brave Soldat) Schweik, there would be no wars since he epitomized unprofessionalism.

James , Fred , Ilja - Thanks for this fascinating conversation . I wish there were more like it .

I have noticed that the level of conversation on the forum has improved as of late. Lots of differing views with respectful discussion. I'm learning from it. But still way off topic. :)

@ Ilja...Your reference to grandma's first foreign language (other than her native Czech) being German was a life necessity and pervaded throughout the Empire. Under the Compromise of 1867 (der Ausgleich) Franz Joseph in yielding to the Hungarians insisted on German be the language of command in the Army (obviously) and also that of administration. So all that red tape of officialdom (Beamtentum) would still be conducted in German. In that sense, on the surface, a sense of linguistic unity prevailed until 1914.

@ James...I'm still guilty.

@ Steven ....There have been a few film versions of "The Good Soldier Schweik" done in German. I would recommend the "Der brave Soldat Schweik" with Heinz Rühmann, that version. It's comical, tragic, serious, laughable...all in one.

You might recall in 1965 that Heinz Rühmann played the role of a German-Jewish decorated veteran of the German Army of WW1 in "Ship of Fools" oblivious to rising Nazism around him.

Fred , I'm familiar with Kurka's score for Schweik , having played it quite some years ago . I do remember Heinz Ruhmann from " Ship of Fools " . Great film , a sort of floating " Grand Hotel " ( although , a far more in depth story than Grand Hotel ) One of the high points for me was the interchange between Ruhmann and Jose Ferrer - Ferrer - " The Jews are the cause of all of Germany's problems , don't you agree ? " Ruhmann - " Of course , The Jews and the bicycle riders " Ferrer - " The bicycle riders ? , Why the bicycle riders ? " Ruhmann - " Why the Jews ? " Absolutely priceless !! I tried sending you a PM , but that part of the site is down , I'll send it tomorrow , Steve