Belgium/ Holland, Spain / Portugal, and/ or Greece - independent travel or RS tour??

We have done all types of travel, bus tours, cruses, river cruises, trips using rail, rental cars, etc.
We are in our mid-70s and now lean toward taking group tours.
The advantages of group tours:
1) having people to socialize with
2) everything planned for you, including transport, tours, hotels, to and from those.
3) You are probably safer in a group tour (great for third world countries where security is important).
4) You don't waste time finding transport between places, booking in hotels, etc.
5) Public transport can expose you more to pickpocketing or unexpected delays.

Do it yourself advantages:
1) Usually save money
2) More freedom to do exactly what you want. Some group tours miss places that you might wish to see.
3) If you prefer not to be with others, going on your own is good.

We did Cusco and Machu Picchu in Peru in 2019, Safari in Kenya and Tanzania August 2022 and Egypt in August 2023. I would not dream of doing those independently on your own. However, Europe is none of those places and Europe is easily done there.

We are 70 and 73. We have been to Serbia, Romania, Croatia, Hungary, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia. We are interested in wine, food, art, churches, and sites.

We go on our own. It's because we are cheap. It does help that Wife speaks French and Spanish, and I speak German and a little Russian. But honestly in today's tourist world, you never get to use your language.

We travel independently mostly because we are cheap. We have spent $200/day for the last 3 tours. By using CC miles, our flights are almost free. We seldom spend more than $120/night, often much less, by staying in small hotels. In Padua, we spent E50/night. In 2019, we spent 28 days in Croatia, Serbia, Romania, and Hungary, and spent 5500 for the trip.

Spain and Portugal we have not been to. Our next trip will be Portugal - Spain - Bretagne France (where we have friends). We will travel independently. We read a lot about the area. We watch Rick Steves shows a lot and other travel shows. We look at maps.

One key - being able to read signs in the location is important. i can read cyrillic letters. I can read Greek letters. I cannot read anything with any Asian languages, so most Asian countries we would do on tours or with guides.

Hi Pat - if you can send the moisture over this way, Colorado will take it - hopefully in the form of more snow!

Our Spain-Portugal trip was a great combination, with some train travel, although we had rental cars much of the time, and flew on Vueling air between Granada and Lisbon. There were 2 unaccompanied children behind us on the plane, and they kept kicking the seatbacks - not so nice, but that didn’t detract from the locations. We stuck to southern Spain on the Spanish part of that trip, and didn’t venture farther north in Portugal than Obidos. That kept the trip from getting too widespread, geographically. Evora was another Portugal highlight, but again, we got there and around the area by rental car.

Hi Pat, Are you sure you just don’t want to go to Switzerland again. 😊

I have a trip to Belgium and the Netherlands all planned (well mostly) and booked for later this year. From my planning, this seems like a very easy trip to do own your own. It will be a solo trip for me. I fly into Amsterdam and head immediately to Delft for 4 nights. Then off to Bruges for 5 nights. And finally to Haarlem for 4 nights and fly out of Amsterdam.

Of your list, I've only done the Belgium and Holland tour. I am a solo traveler, am independent with train-based travel but enjoy the guides and the group. Belgium and Netherlands (not just Holland) are pretty easy to navigate by train BUT BUT BUT....there are 2 big days that the tour was a huge advantage. Well, 3 really.

• The transit day from Ghent to Bruges involved touring the WWI cemeteries and sights including being able to walk in some of the few remaining trenches. This day was just amazing. We had a guided "briefing" of the Flanders Field American Cemetery by the Superintendent of the cemetery, then had a chance to wander a bit on our own. We also visited the Commonwealth sites of Tyne Cot and Essex Farm (which contains the advanced aide station where Dr John McCrae was stationed and wrote the poem "In Flanders Fields") as well as the German Cemetery at Langemarck (nearby was where the Germans first used chemical weapons). We had lunch at a farmhouse where the farmer had just dug up WWI munitions when he did his spring plowing (for potatoes). He had them set aside on pallets waiting for the Belgium Army Bomb Disposal Unit to come disarm them. All interesting and much easier for me to do this on a tour.

• The transit day from Bruges to Delft included visiting the Delta Waterworks. I was not sure how interested I would be in this day but another really interesting time. We stopped and walked out on one of the dams, then visited the Delta site with the big arms that swing out to block incoming water.

• The 3rd day that was an advantage to have someone else manage was the transit from Delft to Amsterdam with the stop at Keukenhof. The guides and driver timed this perfectly as it was also a day with a flower parade. We got to Keukenhof at about 830 (so this was our earliest morning departure at about 745), left around noon and then they got us to a cool lunch spot on the coast to get out of traffic then on to Amsterdam in the afternoon. You can get to Keukenhof by coach from Amsterdam but this was seriously easy.

I'd suggest doing this in April although the weather may be much colder than you are used to! We had what the guides called "snow" one morning but from someone from snow country, this was not snow it was "graupel" which is more hail like than snow like. From San Diego you'd want a jacket and lightweight gloves along with probably a lightweight base layer (like the ones from 32 Degrees brand) just in case.

I know what you mean by long, late dinners. I have difficulty with that on some tours. I do not remember any instance of that on this tour. I suspect we ate around 7 and were back to the hotel by 9. I'm an early morning person but I think the earliest departure was the Keukenhof day. Yes, just looked back at my Trip Report and see that I wrote this (and I wrote it right after I got home so the memories were fresh)

"Departure times on tour: Earliest day was 745 departure from Delft in order to get to Keukenhof early. Latest departure was 10A for our city tour in Ghent. Most days were 830 on a travel day to 930 on a city day."

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/tours/trip-report-rs-belgium-holland-4-6-4-16-2019-plus-time-in-paris

I recommend this tour. It is not as intense as the Italy tours, much more laid back. I'm comparing it to Best of Italy which I did last Fall which includes Venice, Florence and Rome. I do suggest getting to Ghent a day or two ahead of the tour start and perhaps staying in Amsterdam an extra day.

For what it's worth, my husband and I did our first European trip last year to Belgium and the Netherlands and we found it very easy to get around with the trains in both countries. No pre-booking anything, just show up and buy tickets from the machines. We were (still are) inexperienced and a bit intimidated but we quickly got the hang of it. Dinners were also earlier than some other places so no worries with late, lingering dinners. We also loved the art and architecture.

We have done Greece on our own. We rented a car and it was super easy. We have also done Holland and Belgium on our own. The public transportation was great. While we have not been to Portugal, we have been to Spain and the public transportation got us everywhere we wanted to go. Now I would only do a tour in a European country where transportation logistics would be a pain in the neck or where we would have to drive on the opposite side of the road. Most European countries are doable on your own.

My husband and I went on the Greece tour in May 2018. That was our first tour and we picked it because we thought it would be hard to manage by public transportation on our own. We loved it! It didn’t feel at all like there was too much time on the bus - the scenery was always gorgeous. It seemed very relaxing - the pace and the timing of dinners etc. We elected to spend some time alone, especially some dinners and some hiking, but definitely enjoyed the company at other times. The hotels were very good - especially the views at several of them right from the rooms. It was nice to arrive at some of the busier sights before the crowds set in without having to deal with finding parking. I would highly recommend this tour!

Carrie,
yes, I'd rather go to Switzerland again, but my husband wasn't bitten by the same Swiss bug I was. I'm so glad you're doing that trip, because I know how well you research your trips, and I love your well-written, practical trip reports. Also, you don't also don't like big evening dinners, as I remember. How did you choose which direction to start your trip?
Paul, we are all cheap in our own ways!
Mary, thx for the affirmation, and
Cyn, thx, and I'll try to send the rain to Colorado.
Pam, those were great tips I'll note.
Geo, and Roubrat, thx for your input,
Payntertex I appreciate the comments on the Greek bus rides.
So I do think a we can do Belgium and Holland on our own.
Now to wait for decent business class airfares for spring 2024. My senior bones really appreciate it when the journey is part of the vacation!
Great travels to all!

Travel in Spain between many cities is easy enough by train or bus. We found plenty to fill a 3 week trip that we planned to Madrid, Grenada, Nerja, Seville, and Barcelona. All by public transportation and since our kids were 7 and 9, all with early dinners.

I've never tried to travel from Spain to Portugal, but from posts here, I think the train/bus connections are more difficult. Some people fly that part; some recommend separate trips.

With your 2-week limitation, I think your first trip to Greece should be a tour. It's not that Greece is so difficult to get around for independent travelers, but the travel by train and public bus can be quite slow. I've been there three times independently (once accompanied by my then-70-year-old mother), but I always had about 4 weeks. After a first visit, if you find you love the country, you can revisit it later and hit additional destinations within your time frame.

I would heartily discourage trying to combine Spain and Portugal within 2 weeks, especially for a first visit. Ground-transportation links between the countries are limited and infrequent, and who wants a mid-trip flight on a 2-week trip? Spain is a huge country, so I wouldn't even plan a 2-week independent trip to "Spain"; it would be a trip to southern Spain, to northern Spain, to Catalunya, or to some other more limited area where I could travel in a relaxed manner.

The Spaniards eat dinner extraordinarily late (usually after 10 PM), so it's best to arrange your itinerary to allow time for the main meal at lunchtime (also late--roughly 1:30 to 4 PM). On days when that real lunch doesn't happen, you make a dinner of tapas/pintxos at something closer to our dinner hour.

You can make a good start on Portugal in two weeks, but you'll still have to pick and choose to some degree.

We (59 and 72) are in Spain at the moment travelling independently by train/bus. Spanish trains have been comfortable, clean and pretty much on time. Taxis have been excellent - inexpensive, plenty available at train stations, drivers help with luggage, clean - and we have just been showing the driver a note of our hotel address and off we go.

After a rough first week my arthritic knees and ankles have adapted to walking on rough stone surfaces. The only thing we are finding hard is the late dinner times but we have mostly been having a relaxed lunch around 2:30pm and then a room picnic (if we want any dinner after a three course menu del dia). We have found restaurants that open around 8-8:30pm so dinner doesn't have to finish at midnight.

As others have said two weeks is not long enough to combine Spain and Portugal. Two weeks will let you visit only part of Spain. We are here for 60 days and still had to make compromises and keep seeing towns as we go past on the train that look really interesting.

How did you choose which direction to start your trip?

It seemed easier to fly in and out of Amsterdam. At the time I started my planning, everyone was raving about schiphol airport. This of course was before all the recent issues. And I planned the trip for later in the year to avoid all the flower crowds earlier in the year.

you don't also don't like big evening dinners, as I remember.

You remember correctly pat. 😊 I prefer to eat my “dinner” late afternoon.

When I get back from my May trip, I’ll get to work organizing my notes for Belgium/Netherlands. If you remind me, I can send you a copy if you’d like.

We've been to Holland and Greece, both independently and with RS tours. The RS Greece tour is fantastic! RS takes you to the Peloponnese Peninsula which is amazingly beautiful, plus the history!! I would HIGHLY recommend this tour! If you do go, spend an extra week or two and go to Meteora, in the northern part of Greece. It's easy to get to using public train or arranging a tour with https://visitmeteora.travel/. From there its a quick flight on Agean Airlines (through Athens) to Milos or Naxos; beautiful islands without cruise ships. Both are on the ferry route with Santorini and Mykonos, overly populated islands with lots of tourists.

Greece is a wonderful country with friendly people and amazing history! Go!!

You save a huge amount of money by doing the planning yourself. Use RS books and others as a starting point to figure out where you might like to go, then get a rail pass, and figure out the broad strokes of the trip then work out the details.

As someone mentioned, getting into and out of Portugaul from Spain is much more time consuming than you would assume from the map - also getting to Greece by train is not particularly efficient. But getting from Seville to Barcelona to Lyon to Paris, or Lyon to Turin to Venice are very efficient. There are ferries that leave from various ports in Italy that go over to Greece (e.g. Rimini, Bari, Brindisi).

You can also fly within EU. it makes a lot of sense to fly from Greece to Barcelona in 2 hours for example.

Southern Spain (Andalusia) is very colorful and cultured, and Barcelona is world class (albeit with plenty of thieves).

We did not have much trouble with public transport in Greece but we did get help from some nice Greek people at various times. For example, taking ferry from Mykonos to area near Athens, then we jumped on one particular bus and had to pay cash, then the one ended at a subway station where we paid 9 eu for a long metro ride to central Athens. It all worked but I guess it could have gone off the rails.

Thanks to all very your input . You've given me great perspectives on my bucket list trips. And- it's raining again!!!.

Remember that you also have the option of taking short bus tours within the country. We did Greece and Santorini on our own in 2008. A local Greek travel agency(Fantasy Travel) arranged our overnight tour to Naufplio, Mycenae and Epidaurus and we took a day tour from the main town in Santorini(Fira?) to the volcano. We highly recommend Fantasy Travel.
When we were in Madrid, we found a chain store that makes salads to order and also had tapas, rather than eat late.

We also would love to send rain elsewhere, but we'll keep our current warm(78!) temperatures.

Pat, we did the RS Greece tour in 2019 and loved it. Bus times were not an issue. On the Peloponnese peninsula the roads were very twisty. I remember thinking I was glad we did not have to do the driving.
2025, 2026! I like your thinking!

Thanks, Tammy. Now I need to reread all of this a digest it.Thanks to all!