Be nice, and the forum will be a nice place

Hi Kate - hopefully anyone who needs your reminder will see it and take it to heart. This Forum is a great resource and it would be a shame to drive anyone away.

A shame there is even a need for your post, but I hope all of us (me included) take pause before getting snarky. I fall on my sword, I know I have at times been snarky and am resolved to omit my editorial feelings from future posts.

Carol - I'm glad you found helpful Parisians and a hotel room. Hope you feel better soon.

Kate, I am glad you posted this reminder; I am sorry it was necessary. Carol, I am happy to hear everything is working out and hoping this finds you feeling well enough to continue your journey.

Agree with Laura B - getting back to respond posters with answers to their questions (in an effort to help) is also being nice. Leaving everyone hanging and wondering is not the coolest.

Since it was asked: my topic here is not about one specific topic, and honestly the topic Carol started about losing her driver's license was not what prompted this reminder to have a little more patience with new posters and bottle what seems to a good deal of new or relatively new posters as mean-spiritedness.

There is no one person who is "in trouble" and there are not others who are "getting off scott free." This is not about one particular contributor. There are many, many, many examples of the kind of impatient, snapping replies that I'm referring to when I remind the forum to be nice, be patient, and remember that if someone doesn't know you, what you might mean as a joke can be taken as the opposite.

Kate, is there any way to remind/notify new posters that a response that they see as "dismissive" may actually be a simple statement of an answer to the question ? I've seen several cases recently of new posters 'flaming' at reasonable answers which pointed them in the right direction but didn't give step-by-step instructions (which the posters seemed to think was their due. ) Courtesy goes both ways.

We deal with that when we're alerted to it, Laura, on a case-by-case basis, since we don't have the time or staff to monitor every posting on the board. In the case of this topic, however, there were too many complaints and too many postings that fell into the category that even I think were "not being nice," and I couldn't contact each individual contributor. Hence this topic.

Oh and I might add: since I was asked to go to about a dozen or more threads to check out responses, I have lamented the fact that there is no "like" button on replies.

There are so many really great posts... such great stuff... and instead of responding with, "I totally love that!" I've really just wanted to hit a "like" button. Maybe I'm just hopelessly well-trained by the Zuckermonster and thoroughly Facebookified, but... anyone else share this desire to just hit "like" on replies on this board sometimes?

Kate, I believe there were requests for a 'like' button when the new forum was introduced -- may have been 'wait-and-see' at that time. If you build it, they will click.

Laura B is right, courtesy goes both ways. I think it's rude to start a thread, ignore the nice people who tried to help, and not say thank you.

I vote for a "like" button, too, please.....

Kate - I am in agreement with the need for a like button. Sometimes I read the replies from some of the regulars on this board and amazed and impressed with the amount of information they give. I can tell that sometimes they have spent a good amount of time researching their answers. Luckily - I think the good on this board way outweighs any negative:)

We all forget where we are on occasion. I am no exception

I am taking a little heat right now because I thought the tone on one post didn't show any appreciation for the OP's efforts. Sure, the idea of the OP was defective at best, but what happened to "thanks for the effort, but this might be better because ....." The total negativity by a very few on this forum isn't constructive and a very few can have a pretty wide negative impact. I started posting PM's I was receiving (questions about Budapest) because for every question being posted three were showing up in my inbox...most likely to avoid open criticism. I always asked permission to post the PM's but I still got criticized for doing it.

Still, to be fair, over all the folks in this forum appear to be better educated, more well meaning, more polite and less just plain strange than any other travel forum I am aware of.

Thanks for the gentle reminder Kate - we all need one occasionally.

If there were a like button I'd use it here!

The like button idea is the mile marker on the road to perdition, in my opinion. Use your words, people! Do we need to be constantly evaluated? Isn't once a year at the office enough? Will you give stars for the most "likes"?

Seriously, I think a like button adds nothing to a good conversation.

Zoe makes a great point as the socially accepted/expected may not be the best course of action. RS gained/maintains success by not conforming to what were the expected travel standards. I especially appreciate the focus on "using our words" at a time when less and less words are being utilized and effective communication is sagging. So I vote to keep the "like" button away from the forum and accept the need to hold to a higher standard, then what is on social media, to be a more effective positive communicator.

Sometimes I think a "like" button would be good, sometimes not...I belong to a fiber arts web community called Ravelry and we have great forums, with the ability to click Love, Agree, Disagree, Funny, Educational and Interesting. An anonymous show of solidarity can be helpful, but too many Disagrees and you know you're on the wrong track.

I go both ways on like buttons too, and for similar reasons.

What I would love to be able to do is "unlike" things - particularly questions composed of all either lower case or capitals, with no punctuation - susceptible of multiple interpretations - and of only a few words with no clear question.

Can't do that of course, but how people can expect rational, well thought out answers without a crystal ball is beyond me.

The "question" which prompted a fair amount of discussion on this thread is an example of such. A partial picture of an event was painted, with no clear question. A number of reasonable and reasoned suggestions were put forward with clarifying questions and the OP never responded to either the questions or suggestions other than to complain elsewhere that they were unpleasant.

So, let's stick with reasoned discussion and leave the single click like button on the side for a while.

Thanks all of you for your input on the "like" button. I was reading down a topic on the Tours forum the other day (I'll let you guess which one) and wanted to just hit "like" on so many replies, it was driving me crazy. ;o) As I said, I might be just very well trained by the Zuckerbeast (which of course is his intent).

I'll talk this one over with our intrepid Webmaster when he returns from flitting around the globe escorting tours, and we'll decide how to proceed, and take all of your fabulous and well-reasoned input to heart.

I'm going to leave this thread open for a while as a reminder, and I also really do appreciate that kindness and politeness goes both ways. I'll edit the OP to reflect this.

Reporting violations is a fairly uncontroversial implementation, but surfacing quality content requires a bit more discussion. Although there are a huge multitude of different moderation schemes, I'm going to briefly talk about a few of them.

Facebook

As Kate mentioned, Facebook has been using the "like" paradigm. If a user agrees with a post and has nothing further to add, they can just quickly click "like" and move on. Facebook then exposes the amount of likes for each post. Users can also report a post.

Reddit

Reddit perfected the idea of both "upvotes" and "downvotes." Not only can a post be upvoted, it can also receive negative feedback. Posts with a certain amount of negative karma are automatically hidden unless explicitly clicked on by a user. There's no report mechanism, as downvoted posts (presumably guideline violations) quickly remove themselves from enough user feedback.

Stackoverflow

Stackoverflow refines the general Reddit idea by also adding the idea of an "accepted" answer. Not only can responses be up- and downvoted, the original poster (OP) can also choose to mark a question as "accepted," which indicates it is most correct or otherwise useful.

Slashdot

In many ways a pioneer of user moderation, Slashdot pseudo-randomly assigns users 5 "modpoints" to use at their discretion. The users can then use these points to mark posts as "quality" (and label as interesting, informative, etc.), or "negative" (and label as trollbait, flaming, etc.). Once they use up their modpoints, they're out until they get them pseudo-randomly assigned to them again. The slashdot paradigm is likely far too complex for our needs, but they do cap the amount of "up" or "down" votes for each post at 5, and the categorization is exposed to the users so they can see that each post is marked as "interesting" or "thought provoking" or whatever.

What do you think?

Which moderation methods seem reasonable for the Travel Forum? Is there a website out there that does something unique that you really like?

This one.

Don't mess with it.

I second Ed. I like it as it is.

I like Ed. Ten keystrokes, no buttons. If a poster wants to move on, they can do that now, without registering their "vote".

Do most people think others care whether they "like" something? Of those who do think so, how many tweet their every move?

"like" for Ed's comment.

Me too.

This is a forum, not a popularity contest. Let's keep it that way.

Hey, I mean to be sarcastic, dismissive, etc.

Just kidding ;-)

Since this has veered into the whole 'like button' conversation...if I wanted to play with the kiddies on Yelp, Facebook, etc., I'd go there. I agree with Zoe, et al - can we really not simply type, 'Great answer, Kate!', or 'Ed, I disagree, and here's why:___'. Stuff such as 'like buttons' or 'thumbs up/down' are anonymous, so I pay no attention to them. Therefore, They.Mean. Nothing. On the other hand, 'Great answer, Kate, especially the part about bypassing the entry line!', or 'Ed, I disagree, and here's why: now that the OP has mentioned they're going in January, it will be too dark to see the gardens'. Thumbs up or down don't say anything. So what's the point? Your cat/spouse/2-year-old may have typed those 'likes', but I can tell if you typed a more meaningful response. Having 27 'likes' on one of my responses means nothing - I may have given horrible advice, but if someone sees that 27 people who don't know that 'like' my advice, they may think, 'Wow! Great advice!'. Now, if 27 people want to type 'Great advice, Eileen!' and put their name with it...that's meaningful. 27 people are about to get jumped on for not knowing what they're talking about, but that's the point of this forum - giving helpful advice. And sometimes it's a little Koffeeklatch...but I think that's part of this particular forum's charm, and many others have said as much ;-)

Climbing down from soapbox...dragging soapbox behind me...sorry that my soapbox is making that grinding noise against the sidewalk...

I don't like the thumbs down idea because it may be hard to understand why you are getting the thumbs down.. could be you spelt the destination wrong.. or gave poor directions.. or directions were correct,, but not the fastest or cheapest.. or they could be the fastest directions.. but not the funnest.. and then there is thumbs down for bad spelling.. poor grammar.. and finally.. matters of taste. Thumbs down to suggest of going to Disneyland.. but maybe the poster who is asking has kids and they really want to go.. should a bunch of retirees who wouldn't step foot in any amusement park be thumbs downing and discouraging ..

Point is with thumbs up or down.. there is no explanations.. no one asking for more information... just a judgement.

Totally, totally agree with Nigel, Roy, Eileen, Pat et al. There is something 5th-gradish about "like" and "Thumbs up", etc. buttons I've always thought. We're all adults here (I think) and I like it that way.

I like Ed...er, I like his suggestion. Ok I like Ed and I also like him. Seriously though, when I'm reading comments where there are "likes", such as in the NY Times, I find myself going to the comments with the most likes, and thereby miss a lot of thoughtful, nuanced input; it's human nature to check out the popular folk's comments first and to give more weight to them. This stuff we talk about is about details, fine points and sharing personal experience that can be of benefit to others.
To start likes would be to 'dumb it down', in a sense.
The OP is spot on , and I confess that I have elements of snark in my makeup, the point has been made.
Now, if you all will excuse me, I've got a train to catch in the morning-thanks for all the help, it's Paris tomorrow.

I had posted earlier that I liked the idea of an 'unlike' button but, after reading other responses, I have changed my thoughts and agree that it should be left as is (no like or unlike, no up/down thumbs). As such I have deleted my prior post.

I agree with leaving it as it is. Like buttons are nice when statuses are just being posted. This is an informational forum, so I would like to see more information than just a like.

What Eileen said . . .

And Zoe too.

"Your typical poster and tour client is...60? Obviously that crowd isn't keen on change…"

Not necessarily. If you are speaking for the Over 60 population in general, that statement may be true. But I don't think it applies to that or any other age group on this forum. People don't change all that much as they get older. An old stick-in-the-mud probably started out as a young stick-in-the-mud. Judging from their posted life experiences, and my own, as well, the over-60 crowd here has long had a sense of adventure and has not only seen a lot of change but worked to bring it about at times.

But we have also learned to recognize that not all change is progress. Some things work well, others do more harm that good. Part of growing older is learning to recognize the difference.

"But we have also learned to recognize that not all change is progress. Some things work well, others do more harm that good. Part of growing older is learning to recognize the difference."

That's well said, Roy, thanks for that.

I will admit my guilt of being disrespectful on the forum during the short time I have been here & ask forgiveness from anyone I was rude to.

Also, I am learning I need to get clarification from those who respond to my comments when I do not understand their position.

This is the only format I have known for this forum. How can we get to understand one another in the RS community through "likes/dislikes" or similar formatting?

I don't like any of the moderating options. Every site I've seen that uses one, seems to be much more uncivil than this one. Most topics come and go so quickly, that by the time you would rack up enough "likes" or "thumbs" to merit moderating, its a stale thread.

@Colette, I have said this before, but it seems to me that this forum, like many others, is used by some as a "library" where they expect a direct and correct answer to a question. For others, it's like walking into your neighborhood bar/pub/tavern/Kneipe and asking for opinions of whoever is there at the time: some people are helpful - some people not; some people have only opinions. others have hard facts. Some people are judgmental, and some people are glad for an audience.

I think it would be less fun if it were just the library.
{edit} this wasn't supposed to be a snarky comment to Colette, but I see it could be taken that way. I was trying to commiserate that we are all still learning to communicate in cyberspace.

I also agree with communicating with words and avoiding like/dislike buttons. The problem with the buttons is that they require minimal effort. You may get half-hearted likes/dislikes from some people without sharing actual information. If I am asking for guidance, I want to hear from people who feel strongly enough to write it down (type it down?)

And by the way, I am 33.

Agree with Zoe and Ed. No need for the like.....does not add anything relevant.
As far as the rudeness and reprimanding the OP.... If you don't like the question, why not just move on? I often wonder if some of you are just trying to make people feel bad.... Maybe we should have a button that tags a response as rude or dismissive:))

Dismiss:

. Rude Tk
. Rude Zoe
. rude anybody else who doesn't agree with me all the time

Ignore the fact they're never wrong -- I just want the dang button to stir the pot.

Ha Ed... We'll I guess you will be the subject of our get together that Zoe and I are planning when I get home from hot and steamy Fl. (Nothing like Disney and the princess parties with the 5 year old who think they are real:))

Thanks for your input everyone! This has been very helpful and we'll certainly keep it in mind going forward.

@ Stan . . . I did not take your remark as "snarky". You were giving me your comparison of the forum to a library or bar in the spirit that I had not heard it before. And I had not.

At ease & carry on! :-)

Like and downvote/upvote might be a bit problematic due to the more technical nature of most questions.

What about a "Helpful/Not Helpful" system, like Amazon uses for its reviews?

That would be especially helpful in a very common situation here: some person, usually a newbie, asks specific information and tips. Several people come give answers, and then other people have, but don't have much to add. So a lot of clutter comes on the form of "I second xyz" or "abc is indeed good advice".

A "Helpful/Not Helpful" button would allow, for instance, many more participants to quick over answers they think are relevant or not, and then give feedback, especially to newbies.

Make it so that only people with a minimum registration time and/or post count (like 50) can click the feedback buttons, which quickly avoids organized spamming or flame trolls.

This all being said, I think you should try some system. RS forum is one of the most UI-conservative and change-averse online communities I've come upon on the Internet, every minor design change is loathed under the "don't fix it because it isn't broken and can't ever be improved", and then everybody moves on and the user experience gets better. So don't be shy of implementing this new feedback system or at least testing.