atm with pin problems/ visa with pin

True - your ATM should have a 4-digit PIN; make sure you know it as numerals and not letters......Any cards with 'wave', 'touch', 'tap' technologies aren't the same thing as 'chip-and-pin' cards that are used primarily in Europe. Unless you work for the UN, pretty much no American has a 'chip-and-pin' card from an American bank. I'd suggest calling your bank and asking them for a PIN for your CC - many European merchants will ask you for a PIN when they swipe your magnetic strip ('chip-and-pin' cards don't get swiped; if you're familiar with the terminals installed at Target stores years ago that 'take' your card kind of like an ATM machine, that's how European cards are read). Yours will need to be swiped; as an extra layer of security (and that's debatable in many circles...), they may ask you for a PIN. It gets typed in, and that's all there is to it.

laura, the information about four-digit PIN's for European ATM's is correct AFAIK. My cards have that and I've never had a problem with that. One other point to mention is that your travel funds must usually be in a Chequing account. European ATM's don't normally provide a choice of which accounts to withdraw funds, but default to Chequing. Regarding the credit card issue, as Eileen said the proximity cards (they use various names) are NOT the same as "chip & PIN" credit cards. While there's nothing wrong with having a PIN for your credit card, using this for transactions is probably not necessary, as if the card is "swiped" you'll have to sign the charge slip. The purpose of the PIN with "chip & PIN" cards is that no signature is required. When a card is "swiped" the POS Terminal will probably not even ask for a PIN. From what I've seen, some of the merchants in Europe are a bit confused with the new systems as well. Cheers!

Quick question about ATM card vs. debit cards: As long as the ATM card has the "Plus" or "Cirrus" on the back will it work in ATM machines in Europe? ~~~ I don't want to have anything to do with debit cards at all. If it's stolen you're money is gone and you have no recourse as you do with credit cards.

Ruth, an ATM card and a debit card is the same thing. They both pull money out of your bank account. If you're really worried about theft then just open an account just specific for use with your trip that won't be linked with any other accounts you may have with the same bank.

Ruth, Both Cirrus and Plus are accepted at most all ATMs across the pond. If money is stolen from your account via your debit card, you do have recourse: http://tinyurl.com/yktvg7a

As far as I know, no one in Europe is using the "pay wave" system. Everything is card and pin........... We had no trouble with out debit card at any ATM using our four digit pin (all numerals). I've always had a four digit (numeric) pin and haven't tried anything else. If you have something else, it's probably worth changing before your trip...........As far as credit cards go, we used our regular credit card recently. We tried to order a pin before we left but it didn't arrive in time so we went sans pin. In most cases, it was no problem. Even when they preferred a pin, experienced cashiers just processed it without a pin and we signed a slip (like normal). In some cases, the cashier didn't know how to do that so we headed for the nearest ATM and got cash for our purchase......... I think it's worth getting a pin for your credit card too. Since we didn't have one, I can't tell you how it worked.

Brad writes: "As far as I know, no one in Europe is using the "pay wave" system" Both the UK and Switzerland do use paywave/blink/paypass; I have personally used it used at McDonalds, Pret a Manger, and Boots in the UK and Switzerland with my Chase debit card. Many debit and CCs issued in Europe have two chips in them: chip & pin and paypass/blink. http://tinyurl.com/34qowk9

Hi Laura. I'm not sure if you're planning to use your credit card at an ATM, but I would advise against doing that unless your ATM card is lost or doesn't work and you really need cash. Your credit card company will charge you interest on an ATM withdrawal. Before my last trip, I called my credit card companies and asked for the PINs to my cards, just in case I had a problem with my ATM card. You can call your credit card companies and ask what the interest rate would be for an ATM withdrawal, just so you're a little more prepared in case anything happens and you need to use your card(s) for that.

"I don't want to have anything to do with debit cards at all." . . . . ¶ I hope that doesn't mean you only want to use credit cards, not ATM cash. Getting cash at an ATM with a credit card is expensive. Outside the tourist areas, in real Europe, few places accept credit cards. If you don't use cash, you are limiting yourself to the most expensive places. It's kind of like getting robbed by yourself.

Lee, she said she wanted to use an ATM card because she didn't want anything to do with debit cards. There are ATM cards that are not debit cards.

It is true that there are ATM cards that are not debit cards, i.e., their only use is to withdraw money at an ATM, using you PIN. Most banks, however, tend to issue debit cards, because they make a little money (from the merchant) every time you use the card for a purchase. But, I suppose you could request a withdrawals-only card instead. That said, I think a debit card with the VISA logo on it is the best in terms of overall compatibility with European networks. And, that advice from the Federal Trade Commission at http://tinyurl.com/yktvg7a is very interesting. Your liability for fraudulent purchases is limited if you report fraud or theft quickly. I always monitor my bank accounts online every day. Do that at night using your hotel's wi fi, or at an Internet cafe. Very useful in preventing theft.

Tyler, maybe I'm overcautious, but I would never use an internet cafe to do any banking - too much chance of keylogging or even of forgetting to properly close the browser to erase your personal information. Using the hotel's wifi with your own netbook, etc., is OK.

Thanks everyone ~~~ "That said, I think a debit card with the VISA logo on it is the best in terms of overall compatibility with European networks." That's what I would get from my bank if I got the debit card. I just don't want the debit card. The ATM only card has the PLUS logo on the back. That's why I thought it would work just as easily as the VISA logo debit card. I plan to open a separate account for travel, I just need to grill my bank and others about their overseas ATM fees.

I just read the info at the link Michael provided. Unfortunately, it doesn't mention how you are protected if your card NUMBER is stolen and used like a credit card. It talks about fraudulent transfers of money. Perhaps that's what their way of saying money is being taken out of your account even if you have the card in your possession. I don't take a netbook with me and won't be able to check my account every evening. I still think the ATM only card is better, unless someone here can tell me if the ATM machine can tell the difference between the ATM card with the PLUS logo on the back and the debit card with the VISA logo on the front. Thanks. :)

My daughter had an unauthorized withdrawal from her account via her debit card number. She reported it to the bank immediately, filled out a form, and got her money back from the bank. And yes, the machine can tell the difference between a Plus network card and a Visa network card. If it is a Visa ATM, but not part of the Plus network, your card will not work. I agree with previous posters who have said that the Visa-branded card is compatible with a greater number of ATMs in Europe. Yes, ask your bank or credit union what their fees are for foreign transactions, including a currency conversion fee (one of my two cards charges 1% and the other charges nothing). The European ATM will not charge a fee at all.

Ruth, if the card number is somehow stolen and unauthorized purchases made, it's still a "fraudulent transfers of money". That is money is removed from a checking account and transferred to a merchant without the approval of the card owner; the protection is the same.

The key word is "immediately." From the sound of it, I have to buy and carry a netbook around Europe with me just to check my balance each night in order to report it "immediately." ~~~ So there are really 4 different systems? Visa, Mastercard, Plus and Cirrus?

There is only Plus and Cirrus NETWORKS which had the processing of the debit and credit transactions for VISA and Mastercard and each network is owned by the credit card companies. The security level with a ATM only card and a debit card is the same. If either is lost or stolen AND they know the pin number, your account can be cleaned out just same with either card. So there is no practical reason to avoid a debit card. Get two tied to two different accounts.

Ruth, See http://visa.via.infonow.net/locator/global/ and check the places you are going, you should find that the ATMs accept the Plus network. ATM only cards are available and offer more security than debit cards. A debit card can be used without a PIN (internet, phone orders, swipe and sign)you do not even need the card just the number, and the limits for purchases can be much higher ($3000 for purchases and $300 for cash withdrawal). If an ATM only card is lost it cannot be used without a PIN.

The are no charges in Europe to use an ATM. All charges are determine by your card issuer. Your bank is not up to date. The zero in the first digit problems was true about 20 years ago when ATMs first came into usage in Europe. That was quickly resolved and that has been problems for 15 years or so.

Nancy and Frank's posts are the reason why I'm so confused. I'm being told that the VISA debit card is more widely accepted, but the VISA debit card will not work at all unless it's connected to the Plus network. (Which means that my ATM only card should work even though it's not a VISA debit card). If it's not set up with the Plus network, how can the VISA logo debit card be any more or less compatible than my ATM only card that IS set up with the Plus network? If it is vital that the card be setup to work with the Plus network, then how can there be any real difference (as far as the ATM machine is concerned) between the VISA debit card and the ATM only card connected with the Plus network?

I too find Nancy's comments somewhat confusing but may be just how words are being used or phrased. Nancy is very experienced and generally dead on with her advice. Visa owns the PLUS network therefore a Visa card will only work on a PLUS network (and some other minor networks) but never on Cirrus. Many years ago I can vaguely remember debit cards that only worked on ATMs owned by that bank and were called ATM cards. To me the was the very early days of the ATM business. An ATM only card may be available on special request - I don't know. In the Denver area, and the two banks and one credit union that we use, I have not seen an ATM only card offered. All of my debit cards are VISA branded and linked to PLUS and couple of other minor networks that are not available in Europe....... Again I come back to some of your earlier statements concerning the difference between a VISA debit card and an ATM only card as related to secure. I don't see how one could be more secure than the other because both require a PIN number to work....... For over 15 years we have used a VISA branded debit card in Europe with absolutely no problems and no worries. We use a credit union Visa debit card backed up by a USBank Visa debit card.

**** [INVALID]d question **** 1) do the amt at "brick and mortor" banks, in france, charge for atm use? 2)what about kiosk ones??? safe?? 3) i heard from my bank that pin numbers must start with a number OTHER than zero (0).. can (0) be used at all???

Thanks for the link Henry. Yes that is exactly how those debit cards work and why I don't believe they are as secure as the ATM only card. ~~~ You have to specifically state (sometimes several times) that you want an ATM only card in order to get it, otherwise they'll automatically give you a debit card with whatever logo your bank is affiliated with, Visa or Mastercard. ~~~ I read somewhere that the bank has some benefit for "pushing" the debit card on you. I think they get something in return for every time you use it for a point-of-sale purchase.

Frank, I have a credit union issued VISA debit card. On the back of my card it lists the following: Cirrus, Money Pass, Allpoint, Co-Op, and Star. Plus is not listed. Does that mean my card won't work in European ATMs? Thanks.

Are you sure it is not a Mastercard. That is odd. But should work since Cirrus and Plus are the two big networks that are always available.