Are you really "living like a local," or are you merely forcing the locals out?

Interesting, Maggie. We haven’t been to Italy since 2017, so we will have to see if Florence and Venice feel different.

I’ll take you up on that chess pie! :)

When I'm traveling for pleasure, as opposed to work, I have no desire to live like a local. Generally, "locals" have houses to clean, bills to pay, meals to fix, dishes to wash, jobs to do. No thanks. I want to eat out and visit the tourist/traveler/sojourner attractions and museums. To answer your question - Yes. I think tourists are kidding themselves if they think they are living like locals by renting a short-term apartment. If you ain't buying the toilet paper, you ain't no local.

When it comes to Airbnb's in my hometown, I am totally on the fence. On one hand, I think they really do force the locals out. But on the other hand, I think a property owner should be able to rent property for as long or short a period as they wish.

Live like a local is pretty much a RS construct, you don't have to play by those rules. Perhaps I'm odd but I LIKE staying in a hotel, they are designed for the purpose I need and provide services I need and want.

And yes, in many places folks have turned into "professional" Airb&b'ers, not exactly fitting the original purpose of that creation and driving out potential local renters and annoying the remaining folks.

It's not a Florence problem, or even an Italy problem. It's a problem in any city or town that hosts a lot of tourists. IMO, this is also a problem that can be handled at a local level. There are increasing numbers of cities that are restricting short term rentals, it's just a matter of how they want to go about it. Limit the number of licenses issued, freeing up available housing for locals.

And someone will need to convince me that most people going the Airbnb route are doing it in order to live like the locals. From reading here, most seem to want to find cheaper accommodations, cook for themselves to reduce food costs, have access to a washing machine, or accommodate a family without paying for multiple hotel rooms.

I agree with CJean that most people don't use Airbnbs to live like a local. They do it for convenience, to have food handy, places large enough for multiple people and a washer for laundry. :-)

That said, I do agree that it is a major problem in our society today. I've discussed this before, but there is a housing shortage where I live. So much so that Duluth has issued a moratorium on short-term rentals here (within the city limits).

Honestly, if Florence is having this problem, then Florence needs to solve the problem. Scotland right now is raising taxes for anyone who owns a second home, or rents out rooms or apartments there. Other cities have banned short-term rentals. The cities and states are the ones who control this. If it has become a major problem, then they need to fix it. Tourists won't stop coming as long as short-term rentals are available.

The cities and states are the ones who control this. If it has become a major problem, then they need to fix it.

I absolutely agree with this, but... We must also remember that, in many ways, municipal, regional, and national governments are to blame for the situation. They've funded global marketing campaigns, built cruise ports, added runways, subsidized new airline services, etc, to feed a hunger for employment growth, business opportunities, and the resultant tax revenues. But they failed to plan holisticly, and, as we're discussing, have not added (or are not able to add) tourist accommodation at the rates of tourism growth they've achieved.

So that leaves these bodies, addicted to the revenue, with a conundrum. Restricting access to alternative accommodation reduces the destination's total tourism capacity, which reduces travelers and their spending. That would create economic contraction with job losses while reducing tax revenue, shifting the burden of funding basic local services back to the (now unemployed, or at least less-profitable) local population.

Apartment rentals have been around for many decades in some countries, and we've been renting as far back as 1988. I haven't read many Rick Steves articles but the "living like a local" method of travel was heavily pushed by the old Slow Travel website, more as a way of digging in and slowing down, using a small town or village as a base: for a more balanced view, the vast majority of holiday accommodation renters have no misconception about actually living like a local. A Berlin native might well rent the same apartment I did in Oberammergau.

It's not only tourism. A few factors are causing the affordable housing shortage in every popular city, a discussion best left for a political forum. Restrict the number of holiday rentals in a city – how are you going to decide on who has that privilege? And why should city landlords be treated differently to their city and village cousins?

One of my brothers and me once took out a hefty mortgage to invest in a triplex in the Toronto area. It wasn't all champagne and roses for a number of reasons. I wouldn't entertain the idea of being a single unit landlord in Toronto nowadays.

Restrict the number of holiday rentals in a city – how are you going
to decide on who has that privilege? And why should city landlords be
treated differently to their city and village cousins?

Toronto has done just that. Who has the privilege? Someone with a license who meets the requirements. The requirements? The apartment or house must be a primary residence. So you can't own multiple apartments and rent them all out as short terms. And you can only rent out the primary residence for a maximum of 180 days in a one year period. As you know Gunderson, TO has a major housing problem. This is one tiny measure in trying to deal with that.

In this province, the city or town or village each can make their own laws regarding short term rentals as they see fit.

CJ, a Toronto property owner who rents out his or her place on Airbnb for 180 days will either live there themselves the remainder of the time or leave the property vacant. How does this help the housing shortage? I know someone who does this.

Exactly what CJean said for us, we do Airbnbs because we want a kitchen to make coffee/breakfast in on some days (not all!) and have an actual bedroom with a door so that the one getting up early (me) doesn't have to tiptoe around, and the one who stays up late (also me) can watch TV or whatever. I have no illusions that I live like a local (although we do sometimes buy the TP and such to replenish supplies!)

But the point about short-term rentals hurting the ability for local residents to afford to live locally has definitely been on my mind. Am I doing the wrong thing? Just last week, we visited my hometown of San Diego and rented an Airbnb in an apartment complex where I couldn't help but wonder, at the price we paid, the owner must make so much more profit renting short-term than via a year's lease to a local resident. It's on my mind for sure, but we're going to apartment route for Europe next year too.

I dont believe Rick Steves ever suggested "living like a local" as a travel goal. A silly idea anyway. What I believe he said was one should consider "travel like a temporary European", that is, eschewing American-style chain hotels and restaurants. His guidance, pre-dating the AirBnB explosion, discussed a variety of lower-cost options, including apartment rentals, but nowhere suggesting it was the superior or more authentic way to travel, or for everyone.

My only thought on the subject is that if the demand for tourist rooms is driving this situation, it means there are not enough hotel rooms. So either build more hotels, or restrict the number of tourists.

Air BnB has ruined the inner cities all around the world. Think about it. Would you want new neighbors every few days or in some cases every night? If you live in an apt. like many people do in a lot of cities, that means they are coming in your building every day. I would hate it if this was happening in my apt. building.

There have always been official apt. or home rentals, but it is not the same. There are also lots of hotels that offer more of an apt. kind of stay with kitchens and washers. If you want to live like a local, rent one of those, not AirBnB.

Many countries and cities are starting to ban AirBnb, which is good. Give the cities back to the residents.

I have become a fan of aparthotels/extended stay hotels. These are hotels that are set up like apartments but are run as hotels. Recently, I've stayed in ones in Berlin, Nuremberg, Munich, Frankfurt and Vienna. I don't have to eat out every meal, lug laundry across town to a laundromat, or worry about cleaning. If there is a problem, I don't have to track down an owner.

They are usually more expensive than an AirB&B but you get more services.

I don't rent an apartment to live like a local, even though I have shopped for TP on more than one occasion. And renting an apartment or a hotel room as a solo traveler isn't always cheaper. I like the freedom from limited breakfast times and having to get out for the cleaners. Having a clothes washer is a major bonus. There was a time when most people who rented out their places had a week minimum, but I've rented for 5 to 8 nights in various locations. I've found that 4 or fewer nights in a location is not enough to justify renting an apartment for me.

As I was reading through the responses, I was wondering about all those "vacation" rentals in places like Hawaii, Spain, Switzerland ... depending on the season. Do those resort kinds of locations count? What about the short to medium term rentals for travelers that will be visiting, studying or working for awhile?

I couldn't get to the WSJ article, but Googling "florence airbnb ban" produced lots of results. This was the most detailed one my quick search found: https://www.italymagazine.com/featured-story/whats-going-short-term-vacation-rental-ban-florence. It partially aswered my questions and based on what it says, I can certainly understand why residents in the same building would be annoyed. Apparently, the places can currently be rented for 1 night because, "The Italian government is at work on a bill that would reportedly require a minimum of two-night stays in historic city centers around Italy, as well as in municipalities with dense tourist traffic." IMHP that's not much of an improvement.

Sidebar: I must admit that this short to medium rental term thing is on my mind because I've been using Zillow to monitor potential apartment rentals roughly for May through October in Thurston Co. WA. I've learned that it's much easier to find dog-friendly rentals than ones that will rent for 6 months or less. And the fewer the months, the higher the price per month -- a fact that no property reveals on their own website or on Zillow.

Seems that there are two very different topics that are not dependent on each other to be true.

Personally I do not believe a traveler can “live like a local”. We'll always be tourists, and continue to visit a location enough and the best we'll achieve is a greater familiarity.

Short term rentals & vacation rentals have always existed. What AirBnB offered was a way around the gatekeepers of local government, property management companies, and hotelier trade associations, for the home/property owners looking for some income on a small side hustle. Maybe I'm wrong but, I think much of the issue came when management companies and multi-property owners realized the investment opportunities through a platform like AirBnB without the oversight and maybe avoiding things like occupancy taxes. And local governments were slow to respond.

I don't know what the answer should be. In my own city, local ordinance requires a property owner to clear the zoning board to operate a short term rental. The rental must be owner occupied, the owner must be present during the rental period, and they may rent one room, to up to two people for up to 104 nights a year.

Always a fascinating subject; and this is one of the more thoughtful discussions on it.

THE POLITICS
Europe is not a place; it is a collection of places and there is universal truth to any subject in Europe. So recognize that what may be true in one community is not necessarily true in another community. There are so may nuances of quality of life, income, affordability, availability that I do not see how anyone can proclaim a judgment one way or another unless they are intimately familiar with the community in question. To have an opinion is to presuppose that everyone in the world should share your values. I leave it to democracy to do the best it knows how to regulate life for the greatest good of its citizens.
Even then, maybe the locals make mistakes in judgment. One community in one major city that banned new short-term rentals a few years back, real estate prices fell, large corporations moved in and bought entire housing blocks and began converting them into boutique hotels. I would suggest "boutique hotels" have done more damage than short term rentals in some markets.

LIVING LIKE A LOCAL
For some reason that has turned into a pejorative. Sure, if you live in a short-term rental in a typical neighborhood for 4 or 5 nights you will get a glimpse of the life of a local. Of course there is value in that. You will understand that European homes are a fourth the size of a US home, that you need to go grocery shopping a few times a week because the refrigerator only holds a tenth of US refrigerator, that air-conditioning when it does exist is not the same as in the US. You might also find that all of those seemingly negative aspects are what causes the neighborhood to be the home more so than the flat itself and as a result the community is stronger. Or not.

INTRUDING ON LOCALS
Most apartment blocks have the ability to regulate if short term rentals are permitted or not. Again, it’s a democratic thing. Some neighbors may not like it, others appreciate the building improvements that come from the increased income (common use fees are generally a lot higher for businesses than for residential use). I live in a building where maybe 5% of the units are short term rentals. To be honest, I never notice them coming or going. They tend to be like anyone else in that they get up in the morning and go out and don’t come home until evening.

TRAVEL STYLE
Personally I prefer hotels. I like to be spoiled. But when budget is important, or if it’s a family traveling, it’s hard to beat a short term rental. There isn’t a wrong or right on this one.

On the topic of "living like a local", this sums up my thought pretty well -- https://www.bonappetit.com/story/travel-like-a-tourist

VAP, so true. No one likes my advice when asked where do the locals eat and I send them to KFC or Burger King or McD.

I lived like a local when we lived in Augsburg, Germany for four years over 30 years ago.

You do learn more living in a place than just touring it, however, what I learned living there was not a huge deal.

I travel to see historical places, art, architecture, scenic places. Yes, even as a tourist you meet the locals and can absorb quite a lot about the place.

Here's a free link to the WSJ article in case the paywall came up:

https://www.wsj.com/business/hospitality/airbnb-is-conquering-italy-one-city-is-fighting-back-eea8fee5?st=bom9b10d3inb4xc&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Muriel, thank you for posting the link to the WSJournal article. The electronic version actually has more visuals than what I remember from the print (which has since been passed to a neighbor). The map with color-coded dots showing the various rental choices in Florence is a "wow."

I thank all posters for the comments on this thought-provoking topic. It is interesting to read the various points of view, including the comments posted by readers on The Wall Street Journal site below the article. (The comment re: Sedona, which we enjoyed visiting decades ago, is eye opening.)

Electronically marketed short-term rentals is an "industry" that evolved quickly (as more and more decided to "get in on the action," and in some areas we could call it "explosive growth" with most resulting municipal regulations often being done in a "reactionary" manner well after the fact, sometimes in a trial and error manner.

I think we will see/read/hear more as it continues to evolve.

In the meantime, I am thankful the "small satellite city within the city" in which I personally live does now allow such, since we have what some would call extremely restrictive zoning. For how long that will hold, who knows? So far fellow residents are committed to maintaining what is special about the community......and it is a stark contrast when driving into our little city, especially as much of Nashville is experiencing extremely dense growth with huge new houses a mere few feet (some as in 3 feet to the property line) away from each other.

Change can be good with lots of new opportunities and better ways of doing things, but change can also leave a longing for "the good ole days." And, that can be said about soooo many things in the world today.

May your travels bring happy memories that you will hold dear for life, no matter "how" you go about them or "where" you choose to stay. And, no doubt what you see today, you will be describing someday to the next generation with memories of "how it used to be/look/whatever." So, go and enjoy!!!!! See it or "do it" now.

I suppose we could just build more high rise hotels.

Another alternative is to restrict the amount of units available which limits supply which, without a corresponding drop in demand, will increase prices which will leave travel to only those who can afford the higher prices.

There is no such thing as "living like a local" if you are using residential rentals same as a hotel. It is simply a hotel alternative.

At my desert home the short term rentals are regulated. Selfishly, I like it as it decreases the demand on the golf courses.

GoWest, the theory appears to be that if you get rid of the short term rentals the tourists will stay away too and everything will return to the spender of 1975. You know, in a lot of places, no indoor plumbing and no A/C. All that banning short term rentals in my district appears to have done is invite corporations to buy up whole apartment blocks to convert to boutique hotels. Yup, thats better. To reclaim the district for the sort of locals that can no longer afford to rent here we will need legislation banning good restaurants and wine bars, maybe "unrestore" some of the architecture?

Mister E - You must have had a higher GPA than your esteemed fellow alumnus, the former Secretary of Energy!

I haven't heard anyone explain exactly how the elimination of short-term rentals will increase the availability of affordable housing.

Do you mean the esteemed former president of the Republic? Err, ahhhh, I mean Governor?

After you eliminate the short term aspect you have to deconstruct the renovations and return the neighborhood to their original state of 20 years ago so as to depress the value enough to return the units to the lower marginal segment of society.

Or not. Every situation is unique. Why I don't advocate either way. Just don't know enough.

We must also remember that, in many ways, municipal, regional, and national governments are to blame for the situation. They've funded global marketing campaigns, built cruise ports, added runways, subsidized new airline services, etc, to feed a hunger for employment growth, business opportunities, and the resultant tax revenues. But they failed to plan holisticly, and, as we're discussing, have not added (or are not able to add) tourist accommodation at the rates of tourism growth they've achieved.

Scudder, I absolutely agree with this. I finally got around to reading the WSJ article and it sounds like Florence has stuck its head in the ground by allowing short-term rentals to proliferate up to this point, but also by making it difficult for landlords to evict non-paying tenants. That in itself is a recipe for disaster. The article noted that it may be too late for Florence. Cities like Amsterdam that have been working on this problem for several years now are way ahead of the game. But it still boils down to local and state governments taking responsibility and acting in a way that will best serve the residents.

Living like a local is a mind game we play to boost ourselves over the run of the mill tourist. It gives us credence and is especially grand to profess that to others. One upsmanship.
When you go get a baguette at the bakery near your Airbnb for three days in a row you are a local, I guess. Not to the locals, but to those who you tell your tales of travel.

Living like a local is a mind game we play to boost ourselves over the run of the mill tourist. It gives us credence and is especially grand to profess that to others. One upsmanship...

+1 with a Golf Clap

I've been living in Sweden now for nearly 5 months. I don't feel anywhere near a "local". I go shopping, eat, work, and play at the same places as the native Swedes but I have no illusions, I still feel like a Spaniard living in a foreign country/culture. I'm not a tourist so maybe this doesn't apply lol. Nonetheless I do feel very welcome in Sweden, especially in this town I live in (50,000 pop) which does not have much in terms of foreigners visiting, so maybe locals are more open and friendly to me. I've been asked many questions about where I'm from, why I'm here, and what I think of Sweden.

Living like a local or not aside, I feel quite strongly that you ought to be able to do as you want with your property within the boundaries of the law. And I also feel that municipalities have the right to restrict if they choose to.

So I definitely don't feel guilty for using short-term rentals. If a community doesn't want them, go ahead and ban them and I'll stay somewhere else. When I do stay in short-term rentals, I always do so legally, and I and my family are good short-term neighbors, quiet and respectful of the people around us.

Very broadly, I'm skeptical of the concept that everyone ought to be able to live where they please, even if the place you want is where you were born and/or raised. My wife and I were both raised in areas of California that became incredibly expensive. When we graduated from college, both of us with decent jobs, we clearly could not afford to live in the places where we had been raised. Neither of us felt particularly bitter about this; we just moved somewhere we could afford. So goes capitalism I suppose ....

The article tying "Living Like a Local" to Short Term Rentals was a clue that the article was more junk than fact. I suspect most stay in short term rentals for convenience and cost.

Then there is the "Living Like a Local". Did anyone ask the guy that said that what he meant? Or was it easier to define it for him so you could belittle him? I know there is no "him" but the principal stands.

Sure, come stay in an AirBnb and "live like a local".

Wait!!! Mr. E, what does that even mean?

Well thank you for asking. Means you will

have the opportunity to escape the tourist zones when you go "home"
have a more convenient opportunity to try a few local hangouts where no one is speaking English
shop in a local grocery so you can fix your own breakfast and have some late night snacks, but only buy 2 days worth because the frig wont hold more than that --- then carry all the bags 4 blocks to the flat
do laundry in a washer large enough for 1 pair of jeans and 3 shirts --- WAIT, you just washed your clothes in fabric softener!!! get google translate!
hang your stuff to dry
shower with a shower wand only
see only foreign language tv (with 2 exceptions)
understand that bathrooms and toilet rooms in a flat are not always the same room
take off your shoes at the door (bring slippers)
go to she shul across the street for service
sweat in the summer
be a tad cold in the winter
learn to lift the handle before turning the key
wonder at tiny trash bags and how fast they fill up
discover where to take said tiny trash bags
learn to covet any type of shopping bag.
take the metro to the tourist zone along with all the locals going to work
hear the city street sounds in the evening

I am certain others could expand on this list ........

if you return a few years in a row, stay in the same place, you may get to know a few of the neighbors and neighborhood folks.

Obviously the posters here who own short term rentals will keep hammering against the article. I haven't read it.

For myself, a person who is a local in a French city, which means that wash drying on racks in my living room three days a week is normal, I will propose a ban at our next yearly owner's meeting in our small-owner occupied building before it becomes an issue. It's up to the owners to govern their buildings. It's too bad that investment groups managed to buy so many apartments that residents have lost control of their living environment. Imagine if those big US McMansions became weekend party houses or wedding venues but you have nothing to say about your neighborhood because the popular culture says people should be able to do what they want with their property.

Economy has a sense of humor. He forgot to mention the privilege of renting a 2nd floor flat with a pub on the the first floor.

AirBnB's are a good example of "be careful what you wish for".

What started as a simple option for local property owners to make a buck on an underutilized property has turned into big business for some big companies.

It is a shame that some would want to limit my chance to make some extra coin during Coachella and Stagecoach, a time when I will be in Europe.

What is meant by "living like a local"? Can't ge done as Mr E is saying. You take an AirBnB you are already showing you have a lot of disposable income -- something most the locals probably lack. (Unless you are staying in upscale resorts.)

What started as a simple option for local property owners to make a
buck on an underutilized property has turned into big business for
some big companies.

Dont know why how something did or did not start has a thing to do with what it is today. Sort of a straw man, And do you know the statistics of how many are "big business" (what is big business?} I sort of do and you should too, and its another straw man.

It is a shame that some would want to limit my chance to make some
extra coin during Coachella and Stagecoach, a time when I will be in
Europe.

No idea what that means.

What is meant by "living like a local"? Can't ge done as Mr E is
saying. You take an AirBnB you are already showing you have a lot of
disposable income -- something most the locals probably lack. (Unless
you are staying in upscale resorts.)

No, i reported that to some degree you can learn a lot about local living. Its part of the benefit of travel "LEARNING" or not, up to you. Not sure of the relationship between disposable income and cheaper AirBnb lodging. As for the locals. Some can afford better, some not. Dont assume all Europeans are living on the edge..... travel more.... learn.....

Mr E ... I have a house in the desert. Coachella and Stagecoach festivals are huge. But they are only a cumulative 2 weeks. Each of those weeks an owner can collect rent equaling 3 months of mortgage payments. The anti-Airbnb crowd want to outlaw short term rentals. I do not want the hassle so it isn't a problem for me.

When you travel to Europe and rent an AirBnB to "live like a local" you are not going to do it. How many of those locals can afford a few weeks across an ocean? You are probably living among people living paycheck to paycheck, or living with an elderly parent, or struggling with children or health. The "locals" are probably the ones cleaning up after a renter, serving the coffee, and baking the morning bread. You are likely much more affluent and less tied down.

You can live WITH locals, but not LIKE locals.

That is all.

No, I said you are probably incorrectly interpreting a sizable number of the people who make the statement. I assume the majority are smart enough to know what they might and what they won't get out of the experience. Personally I think its a great experience.

Well, has been as long as I have been doing it.

And I dont immediately assume European apartment dwellers are some how financially challenged. Sort of have a more balanced view of society. 2 blocks from me an apartment just sold for well over $2 million (Hungarian buyer and Hungarian seller). Same building has a few nice AurBnb's in it

Anti-AirBnb crowd in the desert? Ey-up, there'll be a Bedouin uprising next.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/and-now-for-something-completely-different

Bets, I own a short term rental, but I am pushing back on the inference that the majority or even a sizable number of short term rental customers do it to "live like a local". They do it for convenience, cost and maybe to escape the the tourist crowds. I think anyone smart enough to amass the wealth to travel knows they can not become a local in 3 nights. But they sure can get their eyes opened a bit as to some of the aspect of life in other cultures.

Bets, I bought a dryer LOL. I can live here 40 years and I will never be a "local" I will always be the Texan that lives in FSZT 4/a.

I will propose a ban at our next yearly owner's meeting in our
small-owner occupied building before it becomes an issue.

And that is exactly what you should do if that is what you think is best. I am 100% on board with you. That's the way things should work. A community that understands their unique set of circumstances, evaluates the situation and takes the action that they think will best serve that community.

It's too bad that investment groups managed to buy so many apartments
that residents have lost control of their living environment.

You must live in a unique market, because the average AirBnb Host owns 1.65 units. But again, bringing it up at the next resident meeting is the right way to go.

because the popular culture says people should be able to do what they
want with their property.

I sort of am in that camp, except one should play by the rules in place when they purchased. My district in my town, put a moratorium on new short term rental licenses a few years ago, but they grandfathered guys like me; and I thought that fair as it did not change the premise of my investment, but forewarned others they can not do the same. On the one hand I like it because now competition is fixed and dwindling (licenses are not transferable) which obviously isn't bad. On the other hand I dislike it because it took a 20% chunk out of my property value (which I have since regained) and the lack of business common fee income for the "House" means fewer repairs. But I am a guest here, not a citizen, so I go with the flow without public comment. Heck, I can vote in the house decisions, but I dont even feel right doing that.

It's too bad that investment groups managed to buy so many apartments
that residents have lost control of their living environment.

...

You must live in a unique market, because the average AirBnb Host owns
1.65 units.

Yep. Wall Street only owns .3% of the residential property in the USA. I was actually surprised by this, given how much traction various politicians have been finding lately pushing forward the idea that by 2030 big investment firms will own 40% of US, residential, real estate, etc etc.

https://youtu.be/Q6pu9Ixqqxo?feature=shared

Not that it's easy to find affordable housing. A lot of households own more than one house nowadays.

Not that it's easy to find affordable housing. A lot of households own
more than one house nowadays.

About 5% of the housing stock is "second homes" which includes short term ownership while people mover or are building and it includes vacation homes. I doubt the vacation homes would ever be able to serve as "affordable housing". So if thats half of the 5% the rest will become available, but how many of those are actually "affordable"? What does that even mean?

By the way, great video. Thanks