Are we confused and/or intimidated by European trains and mass transit systems?
How to use them? And how to buy tickets for them? And if they will take our U.S. credit cards?
And if we are, what can we do about it?
What resources are out there to help us get over our intimidation?
I'm not intimidated by them, I think only first-timers are. The best way to get over the intimidation is just do it once, then it's gone.
We should all know what the resources are: guide books, train websites, forums like this, etc.
I think the big problem is that the American traveling populations has been trained by our airline system. No one except for a few big cities and bit of the east coast has any experience with using trains. So very little of our training translates to the European train system. It can be confusing and maybe a little intimidating the first time. But like the first time with anything, you just have to figure it out and get through it once. Besides reading some guidebooks on the subject, I am not sure what else can be done. Maybe there is a You Tube video. There seems to one for everything else.
We are all intimidated the first time we do something new.
There is always a first time for everything, and it's rarely easy.
For those who live in places where trains operate (Metrolink in LA, Caltrain in SF, NY and NJ, Amtrak in many places, etc.), it would be good to get their arses out of the car and try a train near home a few times. They are slower than a TGV, an AVE, an ICE or a Frecciarossa, but they are not too different.
We weren't intimidated the first time or any time since. I guess my recommendation is to go to the train station, buy a ticket, find your platform, and get on the train. In between some of these steps you might have to ask people where to go and what to do, but that's part of the fun.
Give me one of the budget European airlines anyday.
We went by train from Budapest to Bratislava and from Vienna to Prague on the train, and just about burned up in 2nd class with less than marginal air conditioning. These were not modern fast trains like you'd get in some places--like Italy.
I'd hate to see how uncomfortable some trains are in June and July.
I , personally, love trains; maybe because we don't ride them at home. I think sometimes it can be intimidating but there is usually someone to help. I have gotten directions and answers many times from other travelers or locals. Do beware of possible scammers - someone wanting to help with your bags. I rely on intuition to some extent in those cases. In 1992 my husband and I got off a bus in Izmir, Turkey, in the wee hours of the morning along with maybe 6 other people all of whom I think were Turks. We were connecting to a train to Istanbul. Some very nice little man grabbed one of our bags and told us to follow him (in sign language). What to do - follow him. He lead us to the small dark "train station" and stayed with us until the train came. From the train we got on a ferry to cross the Bosphorus to Istanbul as the sun was rising. Rick Steves didn't have a guide book to Turkey then. A great adventure.
Barb
There have been some recent improvements in train travel between Vienna and Prague. There is a new train - Railjet going about every two hours. I haven't travel by it yet, but read about it. So hopefully A/C will work better on these trains. The old trains had an advantage: you could open window if A/C did not work.
Nope.. they are fun.. and never had problem David had.. but because I have only used the trains in England, Ireland,Switzerland and France.. so all trains were modern enough with good air conditioning.
For those who are going to Paris a great website for beginners and even those who have a bit of experience is :
step by step pages on how to use metro and RER and how to use the local trains to get to places like Giverny, Disneyland and Versailles etc.. explains all the passes , fares. etc.. Pictures of the validation machines.. what tickets look like, everything.
I have never been intimidated by train travel. Now, escalators...
I used to be intimidated by it, still am to a small degree. I spend a lot of time in big US cities, and am 100% comfortable with subway systems, as well as other public transit like busses and light rail. Trains between cities and towns are different. I've never used a train in the US (other than subway and commuter rail from downtowns to suburbs).
It's unfamiliar to many people. The idea of numbered train platforms is different, the reservation or not issue can be confusing to a new traveler. High speed trains in many places operate almost like planes where you book ahead and reserve seats, but slower regional trains you often can't reserve at all. This leads to language confusion when buying tickets, or at least the possibility of such. Plus, American travelers often plan their limited vacation time so tightly that a full train and having to wait for the next one could be difficult on the itinerary.
Now, I really like train travel. But it can be intimidating for people who haven't done it. I do it all the time, yet I still always buy my tickets at least a couple days ahead. Just in case. I know that for many routes I can just buy at the station but...I just don't feel comfortable so I don't. I'm sure that's a sign of low-level intimidation.
Resources - read guidebooks, particularly logistically oriented ones that discuss the details. I think Europe Through the Back Door has a section on train travel. The website The Man in Seat 61 http://www.seat61.com/ goes through a lot of complex itineraries, but in doing so he shows what the trains look like and gives a lot of good information.
Ask on here (and the more experienced travelers should never make the new travelers feel silly for their questions!
I was intimidated at first just because I was worried about getting on the wrong train, having enough time to change trains, etc. Now I love them. I wish I we had such a great train system here. My European train travel so far has been limited to Belgium, Germany and Austria. This fall I am going to add Italy to that, and I have to admit I am a bit nervous about that. Is it going to be as smooth and easy as train travel in Germany?? I hope so!
Hubby and I made some really stupid rookie mistakes the first time in Europe and using the trains. But subsequent trips we have loved them (once we learned the ins and outs) - the fact that they are fairly frequent and go to most smaller places is great. By comparison, VIA Rail (Canada) comes thru our town a whole 3 times a week! So you have to really plan your days around that if you want to take the train, and if you miss the train you are SOL. We are way more dependent on cars and planes.
But then again, my niece who lives in UK has to train to Brighton for work (from Portsmouth or Southampton - I forget where she lives!) and I am constantly seeing her complaining about slow trains. So I guess dealing with them every day isn't fun.
That being said, I am very intimidated by the busses in towns. At least I know the subways will stop at every stop, but with the busses, if you don't have a clue where to get off and it's dark and you can't read the stops as the bus passes by (as I have noticed unless someone dings to get off or someone is waiting at a stop, the bus keeps going...hard to count the stops)...well, that's another matter! I guess in that case you could communicate with the driver where you need to get off and hope you get the sign. But if the bus is really full (as happened to us last year in Rome while trying to get to Campo Fiori) you may not even make eye contact with the driver. Much prefer trains and metros to busses.
I think it is also worth keeping in mind that the problem you encounter are not unusual - most Europeans have the same experience when they travel as well - locating the correct train, being in the correct part of the train, buying tickets in a foreign language etc... So it is very common for people to ask each other if this is the correct train etc.. so you should feel you are fitting in when you ask questions rather than that you stick out - is normal.
I pass through Zurich station twice a day for work and I'd say on average I'm stopped by someone seeking information at least three or four times a week and most often they will be Europeans!
If those idiots who compete on the Amazing Race can figure it out, anyone can;)
I see this from the opposite viewpoint. I grew up taking trains for family visits, but, as an adult, I found airports confusing.
Much of the process is the same: Get ticket, note departure time and destination (and possibly train/flight number), wait by departure board until platform/gate listed for your train/flight, go to platform/gate and get on.
The airport has extra steps which cause confusion: checking in, having to hand over your luggage, possibly multiple terminals, exchanging your ticket for a boarding card, going through security, further boarding card check before you get on, collecting your luggage on arrival. A lot more complicated.
My local station when I grew up only had two platforms, one for trains going south, one for trains going north, and a man selling tickets. If you start with that, it is easy. It had 4 tracks, but the middle two had no platforms and were used by trains which thundered through without stopping heading for exotic places like York or Edinburgh.
Nicole said "the fact that they are fairly frequent and go to most smaller places"
This point appears to be what many first time travellers do not appreciate. There are many posts "I can't find trains from big city A to big city B, are there buses?". This is like asking "I can't find flights from New York to Chicago, are there buses?".
Of course there are trains, you should be asking where to look, as you are obviously looking in the wrong place. There is probably a train every 1-2 hours, with 5-10 intermediate stops, and at least one of the cities will have a suburban network as well.
I agree with Jim, do not be intimidated, no worries, ask a local and have a nice trip.
Kent, it's many a long year since I used rail in Europe, except for journeys from London to Winchester, but I think I would find seat61.com helpful. Have you had a look?
Kent you asked about resources. The thing that helped me understand European rail, was the Thomas Cook Rail Timetable. I used to read it for fun. Tons of info that prepared one well for a trip. I understand that it has been revived, but I am unable to find a US source.
Stan, It is now called the "European Rail Timetable" and is available here: http://www.europeanrailtimetable.eu/
They will ship to anywhere in the world.
That, together with a good map, is probably a good answer to Kent's original question "What resources are out there".
Oh...I was beyond amazed at some of the little places in Switzerland where the trains would stop. Considering in Nova Scotia, the thrice weekly trains stop in Halifax and Truro...that is it! Even in other countries as well (all those little places along the French Riviera). And even the bus service in the little towns and villages (I'm thinking Spiez in Switz). In our town of about 12,000 (+ maybe another 4000 or so from the sleeper communities) - they've been trying to get a bus service off the ground multiple times and never works - we are too dependent on cars.
We had a few errors our 1st time in Italy using the train (late trains, missed connections, actually getting on a wrong train due to a mix-up at the ticket office and ending up in Verona instead of Bologna!) but there was always another along in an hour to save our butts!
"there was always another along in an hour to save our butts!"
That's the key to not being intimidated by the trains in Europe. With some exceptions (long-haul journeys, out of the way places), there will be another along shortly. And that's another reason to not schedule too tightly, sometimes those 'wrong' trains take you to some cool places.
Anxiety over the unfamiliarity of the rail systems is one of the things that probably keeps Rail Europe in business.
"Confused by all your rail options? Don't worry, give us your money and we'll figure it out for you..."
I wouldn't say exactly "intimidated" but found some train systems easier than others to use, to get used to. The German Rail "system " ever since I first got there in 1971, I found very easy to use since the language/geography was no problem nor was the system, adjusted to it right away. In England no problems following the system, France was a bit more difficult getting used to in regards to the system. Basically, with the others no real problems in finding myself around in using the system. A lot of factors make up the "system."
Nicole P,
You comments about Truro are to the point. I too am familiar with Truro and its station, that is the original Truro, in Cornwall, population ~19,000 (similar size). It has one train on the main line every 1-2 hours, most to or from London. Plus a branch from Truro to Falmouth (population 27,000), with 2 trains per hour. That is a little better than you are getting.
Yes, somewhat but it is getting better with experience and successful encounters. I have never lived anywhere that had public transportation. My train experience was a couple trips from Florida to DC via both AMTRAK and AutoTrain. None of the experiences were particularly good.
I am more confident when taking trains in UK as there is no language barrier (or not much, lol). I did feel good a couple of years ago when headed to Bath via Salisbury that I noted from the reader board that Bath Spa cars were certain numbers as the train split along the way. Others, who seemed to have British accents, were caught unawares and had to move to a different car when the conductor came thru.
I have found helpful ticket office staff in both Amsterdam and Brussels even with my abysmal and/or non-existent language skills.
I think what helps is to study the timetables and be informed on what is available. Altho even when I thought I knew the schedule, the ticket office guy at Schiphol said "I can do better for you than that schedule, it does not give you enough time to change" then proceeded to work out something better and made sure to write the train destinations down for me.
Chris F - the train up til a year or so ago would go thru 6 times a week, but VIA Rail said ridership was down and cut it to 3 days (which of course, is a self fulfilling prophecy when it comes to ridership numbers).
In 2007, we took the train to Montreal and Ottawa, and I was all happy and booked our place in Montreal based on the day I thought we'd be leaving NS. Then find out I had planned to leave on the day the train didn't run and had to change everything ahead by a day...what a joke...I think they really missed the ball - they have torn up a lot of the extra tracks and there will be no going back once the infrastructure is gone for good. They are talking about having a commuter rail in the greater Halifax area from some of the sleeper communities but 'it's too expensive to initiate' blahblah...there are lots of people who drive the hour to Halifax from Truro everyday for work - a progressive gov't would have realized the great potential for a commuter rail...but that chance is lost. Wow, that was a bit of a rant!
Not train systems per. se because I grew up with them and use them now, but more intimidated by some (largely Eastern European) train or bus system websites I can't decipher because the English translation leaves something to be desired (and forget about using an actual tripplanner/routing type of software, since it's nowhere to be found sometimes). Right now I'm looking at a Romanian website and I get it for the most part but some things are totally unexplained. Some country and train websites are very easy to navigate (Deutsche Bahn) and some just don't have the kind of infrastructure in place to make it super easy on a non-speaking tourist. Oh, and I'm intimidated by getting yelled at by a surly train ticket person or on-board staff because I did something wrong, got the wrong pass, or am sitting in the wrong place. Dozens of times riding (Eastern) European trains decades ago taught me to expect this (and I say this as someone who grew up there! that's the funny part). Sometimes in harder-to-travel places, the only resource is thicker skin. Thankfully, if you can just find a young person, they're much more likely to be helpful with language barriers.
I think they can indeed be a bit intimidating (and I've been using them for more than 20 years, almost half of which I've been living in Europe).
The first and most obvious potentially confusing thing is that your destination may not be named as the train's destination. I'm thinking about if I'm taking a train to an intermediate stop. i.e. the train's destination is Nice, but i'm going to Cannes. The "big board" in the station does not list all those intermediate destinations -- so when I look up there looking for "Cannes", I won't see anything. Now if I know my geography a bit and am paying attention to the number of the train listed on my ticket, I can figure it out. (Obviously these things are old hat to me now, but I'm thinking of them as someone encountering this on one of their first attempts.)
The designation for my car and seat may not be clear to me if I don't know the words for them; and indeed even if I have interpreted them correctly (or believe that I have), I can still come on board to find someone in my seat or several people in the seats that are supposed to be for me and my party. With their luggage up above taking up all the space that is supposed to be for our luggage. This happened to me and my parents on our last trip. While it was fine, because I speak French and let the kids have it who had taken our seats, it was an additional stress, because arguing with the one kid sitting there (the others had gotten off to smoke a cigarette during the station break, natch) and the delay in getting me, my parents, and our stuff in the compartment meant we took up space in the corridor much longer than was normal, causing frustrations for the other travelers behind us trying to get to THEIR seats. (Imagine them finally getting in and maneuvering their bags aside enough for me to get ours up - the whole thing was a huge PITA).
If I don't know there are two sections of the train station (as there are, for example, at the Gare de Lyon), I might find that confusing, too.
If I don't have military experience and am new to Europe, I might find myself thrown off by the use of 24-hour time. That shouldn't be a big deal, but even a "smart" person like myself has messed that up once enough to miss a train by 2 hours!!
I may be confused about composting my ticket -- or not as the case may be, I may not understand how to retrieve my pre-paid ticket from an unmanned machine with my signature-only credit card, or I may have a very long line ahead of me for the manned line (and be nervous about whether the ticket salesperson speaks enough English or if I can make myself understood).
I may be on a train happily scooting along, when something happens and we stop for a while -- if I don't speak the language, I won't understand the descriptive announcement.
I may be confused about understanding when to get off my train if it's not the end of the line. Will I be prepared, be able to get my bags, and step down in time?
A lot of these are not really issues for me personally anymore. But I can empathize with someone who might find it a bit intimidating to use a European rail system, yes.
For assistance, I would recommend the sites of the man in seat 61 and paris by train, trying to learn as much you can about the terms for various railway words in the languages of the countries you're visiting, allowing yourself time at the train station, and keeping your eyes and ears open. And hoping for friendly fellow passengers in the case of a stoppage or delay that causes you to have to get off the train and wait for a bus, or get another train, etc.
Rookie travelers to Europe should read at least Travel Tips on this R.S. website. To learn more about trains, click on Travel Tips and then on trains. I have this funny (for me) story. I was going from Berlin to Brno. When train stopped in Prague some young American girl asked me when will be Prague. I said: this is Prague. She was little confused pointing at the sign: Praha hlavni nadrazi.
Sometimes it's good to do little homework ahead. Something like this could happen to her in Wien, Napoli, Venezia, Warszawa, Roma, etc.
When I first started using the trains in Europe, purchasing the ticket was the most intimidating part. Then it was immediately less intimidating when I was able to use the automated ticket machines. Now that a lot of those machines only accept chip and pin cards, it has become more cumbersome again-cumbersome because I have to make sure I have enough cash on me if I don't want to wait in line.
So when possible, I purchase the more expensive tickets online- either before I leave for my trip or at the hotel using the internet/printer at the hotel.
This is a pretty good website for the German transportation system, buses included.
http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/stadt.shtml
Yes, there are Youtube videos for every route and train you can imagine. Watch them, see the stations, the stops, the routes.
The website linked above by Jo has a list at the end for some of the local Verkehrsverbünden (pl. of Verkehsrverbund, transit district). Posters on this site often mention getting a "fare not available" message from the Bahn website. This is usually because the trip is entirely within one of these Verkehsrverbünden. If you go to the URL listed, you should be able to find the fares for that VV.
Another VV I would add would be Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Mosel (www.vrm.info) for the Region on the Rhein from Oberwesel down to the border between Rheinland-Pfalz and NordRhein-Westfalen (just down from Remagen and Linz) and up the Mosel from Koblenz to just above Bullay.
As you can see by this map, almost all of Germany is in some VV. German Rail sells a map of the German Rail system, called "Übersichtskarte für den Personenverkehr". The back of the map of all of the VVs (by acronym, like MVV) with cities. On the side are the acronyms with the full VV names. Unfortunately, it doesn't show the URL of the VVs, but you can Google them.
The red lines show the border of the states (Länder) in Germany. Would be helpful for using a Länder-Ticket, if they showed cities.
Lee. The DB website has a series of validity maps for the Länder tickets showing all lines and (nearly) all stations in each Land.
These maps are only in German, so they only link to them from the German version of the page.
Ilja, a good rule, always know the local name of the places you are visiting, and use that when looking up travel times. I have heard of similar tales at Köln HB, or people getting off at Venezia Mestre instead of Venezia Santa Lucia.
Yes, the individual Streckenkarten are useful (where they exist), IF you know what Land you are in, to make sure your travel won't go out of the Land, but with a dozen or so maps, it's rather cumbersome to plan a trip. The only true overview I know of is the printed Übersichtskarte, and I have never seen any thing like it online.
I'm not intimidated, they're fairly logical and easy to figure out. I think people are always put off by something outside their comfort zone. I recall travelling to London with my mom fifteen years ago or so, we met a couple of my mom's friends then they followed me for some sight seeing. Their initial reaction to getting on the tube was nearly horror. If they hadn't been following me, I honestly think they would have taken a cab rather than try to figure it out.
One technique I've learned is to check the schedule carefully before leaving the train station so you know when to catch the train you want. I went to dinner once in St. Goar while staying in Bacharach. I checked the schedule but noted there were two later trains if I was late. I ran into some Americans at the restaurant who were just getting ready to join a Rick Steves tour, we talked and I ended up relying on the last train back to Bacharach. Unfortunately, I didn't read the schedule carefully enough and the latest train was on weekends only. By then the streets were deserted, no cabs or even cars around. I'll never forget that Bacharach and St. Goar are 14km apart, because that's how far I walked.
I am getting used to train travel in small increments, but I do confess to some anxiety about it.
Edinburgh to London I had a reserved seat but was faced with evicting a very drunken man from it, then plopping myself down and getting the hairy eyeball from his buddies--but only until the next stop when they, too, were evicted by the seat reservation holders. Salzburg to Vienna, 6 pm Sunday train chock full of travellers and nary a seat to be found--well, there was, but taken up by people's purses, bags and feet so left to wander as the train rolled, trying to decide who to approach and ask to move their stuff. Found a woman about my age and asked politely for her to move her purse--come on, people! train is full and you use a whole seat for your purse?--first she eyed me, seemed to ponder a bit then finally reluctantly moved it. The entire 3 hour ride she gave me the fish eye. Same trip, train from Vienna to Budapest and I have a suitcase so I was all set to do battle--first in line to board, heave suitcase aboard and into luggage rack and sit right across from it--train wasn't full so everyone could take as much room as they wanted.
Important tip--never, ever forget to roll up your pants legs before using the toilet. The floors get progressively worse as the journey continues.
I have yet to consider an overnight train, thus far 5 hours max has been it. A short flight seems a more sane and efficient option.
@ Christa...You're right. There are times on the train especially when the reserved seat is yours, you have to be aggressive, plain and simple, forget about coming across as rude. It's great when some uncooperative obnoxious person gets bumped by a reserved seat holder. That person knows what's up.
Oh Christa...
I'm thinking of one of our journeys on one trip in Italy....it was one of those trains where there are 6 seats in a little cubicle. So you had reservations. When we found ours, there were already 4 people in it, and even tho hubby and I were obviously together, one guy sat in the middle seat and we had to sit on either side of him. I'm very passive aggressive, so we commenced passing chips back and forth over this guy, and chatting back and forth...STILL did not get up and let us sit together! So when he went to use the toilet, I just plopped myself over into his (read - my) seat...sigh...
I think what really helped us the first time (many years ago now)was knowing that we had BritRail passes and if we got on the wrong train or didn't get off at the right stop, we were ok. No fines, no worries about having to pay for an 'extra' ticket due to a mistake. We gained confidence and were able to tackle Norway and Austria on a EuRail pass. Just had to be certain of the station name and really watch the boards for the platform numbers as neither of us spoke the local language. It was fun and made us more careful travelers, I think. I know the Passes are not the bargains they used to be, but the flexibility and that 'confidence factor' would probably cause me to use them again (if we get to Europe again).
@ Ilya -- yes!
This thread is an interesting mix of helpful tips and horror stories! I guess that's about par for this site. :). I'm about to buy plane tickets for a 2-week trip which will involve a number of transit situations: train from:
Amsterdam to Hamburg - kind of freaked out about this because of everything previous posters mentioned: finding the right platform, right carriage, right seat, what if someone is in my reserved seat and I have to ask them to leave... This happened to me on a train from Brussels to Goettingen 7 years ago. A woman was in my reserved seat next to a table with her 3 friends. When I said in German that she was siting in my seat, she made fun of my German, then informed me in English that she wasn't moving. She made one of her friends get up and give me his seat. I had to sit across from her for the whole journey.
In Germany my friend and I are planning to visit Goslar and Quedlinburg from Hamburg, then go on to Weimar to stay with a mutual friend. My friend will handle all the train ticket bookings and he is German so he knows the language, obviously, and understands train etiquette better than I do.
Then I'm flying from somewhere in Germany, maybe Berlin, to LHR and visiting a friend in London for the weekend. Someone mentioned being intimidated by airports, which for me was a refreshing take on travel anxiety. I've always felt comfortable in airports, I think because it's virtually impossible to go where you aren't supposed to go. In contrast, it seems very easy to get on the wrong train or the wrong wagon and not know until a conductor comes by to check your ticket.
After London, I'm taking the train to Wales to visit Conwy and Caernarvon, and finally a train to Manchester from where I'm flying home. I feel more comfortable about taking trains in English-speaking countries because I can easily ask for help.
With regard to trains in North America, it sounds like many people have local horror stories. A few weeks ago I took Amtrak from St. Louis to Chicago to meet up with my German friends. The train was 3 hours late leaving STL. My friend asked if Amtrak compensated passengers for this and I had to try not to laugh. He said in Germany, DB reimburses passengers for certain percentages of their ticket prices depending on how late the train is. That for me highlighted the sheer differences between American and German train travel.
If somebody is already in your seat, the usual reason is that one of you has confused which coach you are on. The same numbers repeat in each coach. Easy to do if you jump on the train late and do not have time to read the carriage number indicators on the outside. It is probably a simple mistake, not deliberate.
Yes, maybe (hopefully!) the usual reason, but not always the reason. Sometimes people just don't care, and then they act like YOU're the jerk for wanting your own seat.
The best resource to get over intimidation is to not make excuses and do the thing that we find intimidating. Familiarity reduces intimidation.
Regarding reserved seats -- we had to move some Americans from our seats (politely, of course) because they were not used to train travel and did not know to check the signs above the seats, just saw empty seats and took them. (Did it myself on an earlier vacation before I learned train etiquette.)
Thank you to each person who has posted on this thread. It's been an interesting and useful read, complete with tips, insights, horror stories, rants--the whole gamut.
I appears that those of us who don't use trains in N. America are understandably intimidated, or at least confused, by European trains.
But many experienced travelers have realized that enhances the quality of your trip to take the train if there go where you want to go. Probably faster, cheaper, less hassle--than doing the often problematic European car rental.
Don't rent a car just because you always do it here. It's different over there. And say good-bye to ZTL fines, paying for extra insurance cover, or not paying and worrying about it, GPS, accidents, and potential extra charges from the car rental companies.
Gosh, I love trains and living in New England I have had ample opportunity to use them. I've also taken Amtrak across/around the USA. When I initially read the title I thought Kent was trying to be funny. However, after reading some of these posts I'm now nervous about traveling by train in my upcoming trip to Sweden as I don't speak Swedish…working on it, but... Seriously…I'm easily unnerved, I guess.
But as an aside, as I think about it, my H and I were taking the train from Nancy to Paris several years ago. We were in our seats when a young man indicated I was in his seat. My initial reaction was that he is, of course, correct. While I'm OK with my French, I can't argue in it. But I held on, compared tickets, and another person on the train started translating for us. My ticket still looked correct, but… Fortunately, the conductor came along and told him he was on the wrong train, wrong time… Whew. So I guess I can make myself nervous. >> I guess the lesson is that it will all work out in the end.
Wray,
When I wrote the Original Post, I was thinking: why do we see experienced travelers not reporting problems with rental cars, whereas we do seem a large number of posts by travelers inexperienced in Europe reporting problems with renting a car in Europe, and we see inexperienced travelers renting cars when trains would have been easier for their destinations.
Is it just because that's what we do as N. Americans? Rent cars here, so we just think, oh it will be easier to stick with something familiar (rental cars), it's always easiest and cheapest here, instead of dealing with all these intimidating unknowns of European trains?
I just thought it might be interesting exploring that, and 50 posts later, we've had some interesting discussion from our contributors.
Thank you to each of you for thinking about this subject and sharing your thoughts!
Luckily, in all my train travel in over 40 years of doing that in Germany I've never run into an obnoxious person, esp a woman acting like a jerk refusing to be bumped from a seat I reserved, the same in France. I make it point to tell the person in the local language I've reserved it and show the reservation. If the person doesn't get it by then or pretends to be, sometimes I use English then, or I look for another seat esp if the coach is more than half empty. But, such a reaction is super rare. Mostly, you find people civil. I've been bumped most often in six seat compartments and have bumped others.
Kent
I think you are actually right on. I think many people, particularly perhaps those outside certain eastern cities cannot imagine that they can easily travel around Europe by train only, that a rail network could be that extensive, that convenient, so they rent a car.
It would be interesting to see if there is a geographical commonality for renters and a different geographical commonality for train travelers. Thanks for the topic. Wray
Wray,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I have no empirical data, obviously, but suspect that regarding car rental in Europe, if we had the data (which we don't and never will), there would be a relationship between N. Americans who rent cars in Europe (when trains are available) and those who live in areas where trains are not found.
And that there would also be a relationship between relatively inexperienced travelers to Europe and more experienced travelers to Europe.
Of course, the strongest relationship might be this: travelers to the Tuscan hill towns or the Cotswold villages, where train service is non-existent or not efficient, would rationally decide to rent a car.
What gets my attention is N. Americans who rent cars in areas where train service is good, and where their destinations are on the rail lines.
Cheaper, better, and safer (trains where trains go there) doesn't always win the day.
It may be as simple as people who rent cars in Europe (irrespective of whether they are familiar with train systems in the US or not) truly enjoy driving and don't see it as a burden (for one thing, it makes stowing luggage quite easy from place to place and having to avoid dragging it around). They are probably confident in their driving abilities and can navigate easily with a manual transmission, even in unfamiliar surroundings. They probably skew > 35 years old, as opposed to younger generations who have never touched a manual transmission when they learned how to drive and probably never will. Driving may be their preferred mode of transport irrespective of alternative options, which may be cheaper. Perhaps they purposely weave in intermediate stops that are not as efficiently served by train, or they have at least 3-4 people in the car and the economics make sense versus the train. Whatever the case, I'm not sure it's a matter of not knowing that trains are an option or being intimidated by them. I admit we can't rule out the familiarity argument altogether, since the drivers' history of using trains is unknown. My point is there are too many variables to say anything conclusively. It's not as if we can say that certain people will consistently rent a car and never take trains - they may alter their behavior based on the needs of a particular trip, or use a mix and match approach of both car/train. It's a good thing to have that flexibility and be able to use it.
I'm looking into renting a car in Romania because, although trains are certainly an option and they go nearly everywhere and are really inexpensive, they also take twice as long for any given trip. The infrastructure is old and train speeds are not comparable to Western Europe. In that case, paying a lot more for a rental car may still be worth it due to time constraints (plus the ability to veer off into rural areas). On financial grounds alone, this makes no sense but there are other variables involved in renting a car.
My husband and I were very nervous about renting a car in France, but we were heading up to Caen area and wanted to go to Mont St Michel. I wanted to stay and see MSM all lit up at night, and the time of year we were going (late-Sept)...the bus/train combo did not work in our favour. And honestly we got a great deal renting the car thru AutoEurope (Europcar in Paris) that even with the tolls and gas, I think we broke mostly even. Being able to do things on OUR schedule totally made it worthwhile tho. With a car, you don't have to watch the clock to catch that bus or train, you can linger. And having the car allowed us to stay with some couchsurfers in this little tiny village called Amblie that I don't believe has bus service. And their home - in an old converted grain mill - was so gorgeous.
So there are times when a car just is way more convenient that a train or bus. We are still trying to decide if we are going to France this fall, and want to rent a car to wend our way over a week from Avignon to Nice, and seeing all the little places along the way.
That being said, we will probably never drive in the UK (driving in the car with my sis who lives in the UK is scary enough). And highly doubtful we will ever have one in Italy (Tuscany could force our hand tho).
RS and other sites have guides on how to use the train system, so that part isn't too hard. I'd say some of the intimidation comes from lack of confidence in handling the unexpected. Missed connections between trains. Service changes. It isn't like you're in your hometown where you can call a friend if you're stuck, or even general travel in the US where you speak the language. You start in a station where messages are constantly announced that may be unimportant ("keep an eye on your belongings at all times") or quite relevant ("the 10am train to Paris has been moved to track 14", announced after you checked the board and went to track 5). Further announcements along the way are similarly unintelligible in many cases.
Since people are giving anecdotes, here are a few. In Munich we were talking the S-bahn to the airport and went to board the train. It turns out they were doing construction on weekends and this wasn't mentioned on the english version of the S-bahn website, upshot being the downtown S-bahn stops were closed. For all I know they were making regular announcements (in German) saying "to get to the airport, take the U-bahn to stop X and then board the S-bahn" but we don't speak German. If you've been in subway stops they are mostly automated machines, so our panic level was rising as we looked for someone to ask how to get to the airport. Fortunately we had given ourselves plenty of time so it all worked out.
One trip we had booked a night train from Amsterdam to Munich on City Night Line. Train pulls into Amsterdam, the car we were supposed to ride on was not on the train! Figured we'd better at least get on the train before it left, so we did. A very unhelpful conductor eventually found us a room on the train, not the level we had paid for.
We were going from Rome to Cinque Terre and had a change of trains along the way. For some reason (never knew why, maybe they announced why in Italian), the train stopped several times for 15-20 minutes at a shot at some stations along the way. Over an hour late at the connecting station we missed the next train our tickets said we should take, so looked at the schedule in the station and found another train going to Monterosso. In my memory it was not a manned station, just a small stop. On the train when the conductor came by we showed our tickets, he wasn't happy. Not red faced screaming, but clearly we had broken some rule. He didn't speak English, so I'm still not really sure what rule, but we had to fork over 10E or so apiece on the spot.
You'll probably find this one funny. Leaving Amsterdam on the way to Haarlem to start our RS tour the train came to a stop and we saw "Haarlem Spaarnwoude" out the window. We want Haarlem, right? Maybe "Spaarnwoude" means "town" in Dutch? We get off. Turns out there are 2 stops in Haarlem. This wasn't the right one.
Now, we've taken plenty of train trips that were completely uneventful and will keep riding public transit in Europe. Fast and convenient. But it's always felt like a brittle situation; it works as long as it works. At home we understand the announcements and can talk to the rail staff and fellow travelers if there are issues, that isn't the same in Europe.
John... love that ..."it works as long as it works"
I would not say I am intimidated, but I am definitely not confident to know I will always end up at the right place.
After more than 30 trips , and I almost always rent cars. I really enjoy driving in Europe, I can drive a manual and love going off the beaten path on the spur of the moment. I don't like a strict schedule and often go to towns or cities on a whim. I do love the train and if it would stop when I see a lovely French Chateau with a lavender field in front of it...I would always take the train. So, now I use it when it is the best mode of point to point travel.
One of my first train trips was to Prague... we could not take the rental car from Germany... It all seemed so easy. Leave the car parked at a town near the border, take the 1 train (ticket agent assured us) straight to Prague... then back the same way a few days later. After abut 15 minutes on a nice. new train we stopped... many border guards boarded, took our passports, and after a while came back on the train and herded us all off and on to a rickety, old, smoky smelling train... oh, well.... we carried on for a while through the countryside. Suddenly, the train stopped and I knew it was not Prague. There was literally no one else anywhere near us that spoke English. Guards came on and insisted that we vacate the train. I kept saying Praha, but to no avail they made us get off. I was sure we would never be seen again. We were then forced onto a bus. Finally we found another English speaking couple. They also had no clue what was happening. We then had a 30 minute bus ride through the countryside. Finally arrived at another train station, boared a new train and arrived in Prague. We checked into the biggest, most expensive, English speaking hotel I could find! After much discussion with the staff it was concluded that there must have been an accident on the tracks so we had to go around it!
That was my second trip on a train... I don't even want to go into the first when we were in the back car of a train going to Paris and about to be unhitched and on to destinations unknown till the guy who took the tickets drew us a diagram of what was going to happen and ran with us to get in the correct car!
Imtimidated??? not sure, but certainly not confident!
One thing that got us is announcements in the language of the country only (French, Italian, German). Although I think I do recall English announcements in Italy, don't rem them at all in France.
We were in Nice heading for Avignon, and I meant to get tickets for the fast train and ended up getting tickets for the regional which came in at a different station. While in Nice, there was a torrential downpour complete with thunder and lightening (one thunder boomer was so loud outside the station I thought for a few seconds a bomb had gone off - it was that close). So the train ended up being delayed by about 90 min...but they kept making track change announcements in French, so we had no clue and just following the crowd of people shuffling from one track to the other (this happened a few times before a train showed up). We weren't the only confused people, as other trains did come in for other destinations and we were lucky we didn't end up on the wrong train. The worst part was we had someone picking us up at the TGV station and I couldn't figure out how to get the phones to work to call him. Luckily, when changing trains in Marseilles, I had my iPod and remembered that McD's offered free wifi and was able to message him our change of plans (see, McD's is good for something!).
I went from Zelezna Ruda to Prague in 2012. We had a change of trains in Klatovy. When I got there, the track number for the train to Pilsen was blank, so I went up to the ticket desk to ask about the track. The agent was having trouble explaining. I asked her if she preferred English or Deutsch. She said Deutsch. I said "Schienen Ersatz Verkehr?" (a substitute bus for travel around tracks that are closed). She acknowledge it and pointed to the buses in front of the station. I don't understand Czech, but I found that more people in the Czech Republic speak German than do English.
Terry Kathryn, your experience, with the border guards, sounds like something from before the fall of the Iron Curtain. ??
Re: "announcements only in the local language"....that has changed a lot in the last 40 years of traveling. In the 1970s and '80s hearing the announcement only in German or French or Swedish (where the train was going to separated at the next town) was most common. The only times English announcements were made as I recall were on trains stopping in Frankfurt. True about German being spoken more prevalently in CR than English, same as in Budapest. It was the first foreign language taught in the Cold War years.
In 1973 when I was in Prague for the first time with two other American backpackers, trying to get to the hostel, etc, etc, I used all the German all the time. The Czechs all were able to communicate. I know of two friends, one American and one French, both language teachers, who visited Budapest in the early '70s and '80s, found it a totally frustrating experience dealing with commie Hungarian red tape, etc because no one could speak English, or French for that matter. The Hungarians only spoke German (as the foreign language to deal with foreigners), which was not the case for either of these two teachers. Nowadays, in Prague and Budapest finding someone who speaks English is only a matter of course.
Actually German was not the first foreign language taught in CR and Budapest in Cold War years, Russian was.
Hi,
That is true but I've never heard of (maybe it's only my experience) any Czech or Hungarian, not knowing English well enough or at all, asking anglophones if they they spoke Russian, instead of German, in order to communicate. I've known that question on speaking German asked of foreigners as in the situation on the two teachers above. The main point might be this: Russian was imposed but did the Czechs or Hungarians refuse to speak it, preferring German instead? Now, we know it's English, preferred and used. In 1973 in Prague I did all "official" business, such as the mandatory daily currency exchange, imposed on all foreign visitors along with the visa, exchanging US $ at a bank, buying train tickets and the mandatory seat reservation (called a Platzkarte then), and the daily tourist "stuff," ordering in restaurants, checking in and out of the dorm, signing up for the Cedok city tour, etc in German. No problems linguistically at all.
According to a survey in the EU in about 2005, the three most commonly known second languages in the Czech Repurblic were,
German 28%
English 24%
Russian 20%
When I was in the Czech Republic in 2012, on several occasions, I asked someone if they wanted to speak English or German, and every time, they said German. The Czech Republic and Prague were a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Speaking People. I think the closer you are to the German border, the more likely they are to know German.
As a European i don't know if I should be amused, puzzled or offended by this tread.
The amusement and puzzling comes from people from a modern country being intimidated by a transport technology thats been around for 200 year. Seriously i can't see whats intimidating about trains, unlike busses, you know where the stations are and unlike planes, you don't have to go through security and all that stuff.
The slight offense comes from all the whining about announcements not being in English, you comes as guests to a foreign country and expect them to speak YOUR language, put a little effort in it and learn the basics. While i get that it's practical for most people to speak English and it is the most common international language and i also use english when i travel, it just comes of a buit whiny when Americans, who generally don't know any foreign langauges complain that other couintries don't cater to their language.
The native-language announcements don't bother me at all, if I don't understand something there is usually a fellow passenger to translate, with words or gestures, what is being said.
I make a point of leaning train-speak for every country I visit, usually no more than a half-dozen words will do, plus numbers from 1-30. This type of preparation is in the same category of importance, to me, as having a hotel reservation.
Uh - didn't think I was whining...it was just a stressful situation for us as I stupidly got tickets for the wrong train, the trains were really late because of the storm and I had no way (at that time) to contact the really nice couchsurfer who was at that time going to be picking us up at the wrong train station. And we were blindly following the rest of the people and didn't know which train was ours...I wasn't the only one looking really confused...sorry if it came across as 'whining' but I was just telling of a frustrating at the time but now humourous to me train story...and I do know some French being from Canada, but it's hard to understand not very clear announcements coming over the PA...
I don't want people thinking I am one of those 'ugly North Americans' who thinks everything needs to be sanitized and people had better speak English or else. We've used trains all over Europe and 97% of the time haven't had an issue at all - and generally the issue was with slow moving regional trains making us late for connections and our misunderstandings of what 'via' meant on our tickets (no, 'via Carrera' when travelling to Cinque Terre did NOT mean to get off the train in Carrera to catch another train - it means we made a stupid mistake and had to wait an hour for the next train to come along; and no, you shouldn't listen to your husband when he thinks you should wait one more stop for 'Ercolani' and end up having to wait an hour for the train to come and take you back to the proper stop).
The experience in Nice was our only 'major' language issue in 4 trips to Europe that was made worse by the stress of the situation (I hate getting things wrong and being late). We've rarely had a language issue...nothing that miming and hand gestures didn't fix. As someone who rarely has access to trains here in canada, I love the European train system and lament the fact that they keep cutting our train services locally.
The European train system is something with which many of us are unfamiliar.
It's not your fault when things don't go as you planned. Even if you made mistakes, someone said to err is human.
Rick tries to help, in his books and this website and his employees.
We here try to help, but we're only travelers, too.
The alternatives are always renting cars, which can be problematical in Europe; or taking a tour, in which you lose some independence and may not be the way some of us like to travel; or restricting your travel to N. America, which has obvious downsides.
Nicole, you were not being whiny. You addressed the questions raised in the original post. One person took offense and lashed out for reasons that seem to go far beyond anything posted here.
Most US residents are totally unfamiliar with train travel at all, because it is so little done in the US. So most first-timer travelers to Europe would only have an idea of what its like from old films. Reading a posted timetable even in English would be a problem.
Nicole, my post was in no way directed at you personally or your post in particular. It was more the general issues adressed in this thread about language and the underlying expectation of many native english speakers, that foreign people should be able to speak their language and not the other way around. Most native english speakers I have meet have never bothered to learn another language.
Roy, i was not lashing out, note that i wrote SLIGHT offense. You are however rigth that I think that this is an issue that goes beyond what has been posted here, it's the underlying issue of tourists expecting people to conform to their needs and languages, instead of the other way around.
But mostly this tread amuses me more than it offends me, I just find it odd that people are intimidated by trains, when for most Europeans it is something we take for granted and have grown up with. Of all the ways you can travel, It just seems like the easiest way to get around.
Kent, to prevent getting lost alternatives are always renting cars? I think it's easier to get lost with a car than on a train. I am not used to getting lost on foot, in car, on train, etc. That's I will never forget how hopelessly I got lost in Hradec Kralove driving from the Jeseniky mountains to Prague and in Hradec I wanted to get on freeway. Well there were some detours and they did not bother to put signs and ultimately (after some "sightseeing tour" through Hradec) I ended on country roads driving almost half of the way toward Prague until finally hitting freeway. It did not help me that I had a road atlas, knew how to use it and spoke and read Czech.
No, but the variations between train systems can be significant and the seemingly always changing permutations of local/regional, country and multi-country tickets/passes require attention when planning itineraries. I view it as a part of the experience and take it as a challenge. This from someone who loves trains in Europe, but here folks drive autos as train service is limited to two passenger trains daily and does not extend beyond the east/west track.
I've gotten to the point where I will not rent a car in Europe, if there is a reasonable alternative (and there usually is).
And for US domestic travel, I always rent a car. Usually the only option, affordable and easy.
But not necessarily so in Europe: too many hassles, too much potential liability and complications.
Stan, re: "Reading a posted timetable even in English would be a problem."
I have posted links to timetables in the past. That is a proper timetable with all trains and all stations for a route in a table that you can view or print out. I find that more informative than looking up individual trains, as you get an overview of the whole service.
I have never had any comeback, am I wasting my time?
Chris,
I don't think you're wasting your time by posting the entire timetable rather than looking up individual trains.
We here are fortunate to have your Europe resident experience and perspective. And we thank you for your service.
An unavoidable problem with a site of this type is that casual participants often don't come back to you with thanks, even if they find your info useful.
They have found us via Google and are here only for a short time.
But We Regulars know that you're helping people by posting the entire timetable.
I think that whenever you encounter something new and combine it with a schedule and cost, stress occurs. :) And if you toss in a foreign language, it can multiply. My first really big European train trip was from Reutlingen Germany to Athens Greece--ah for the days of Yugoslavia when the Hellas Express still ran. I was 19 and I got the right tickets. But I completely blew the schedule. What I though was a 22 hour trip was really a 46 hour trip...
Since then I've ridden a lot in the UK and I am very comfortable there. I took the train from Vienna to Munich and was a bit edgy as it was a new railway station. Rick's info helps, but understanding the different types of tickets that are available--Regional vs TGV vs other fast trains--seems tricky. But, is it really that different here in NYC? We have two train stations--Penn and Grand Central. You have metro North and New Jersey Transit and the Long Island RR. Then there is the PATH system and of course the subway! And can you take the train to the airport? JFK--the subway and the air train, or LIRR and subway. Newark--New Jersey Transit. LGA--take the bus! :)
Pam
That during the years of the Cold War Russian was the first foreign language to be imposed is clear. Prior to Czech independence in 1918, one could assert the same historical argument as regards to German since the Czechs' desire for independence from the Austrian Habsburg rule began to increase from the mid-19th century.
As mentioned above, I've never met a Czech or Hungarian, given the choice of speaking German or Russian, assuming they could do both, the person preferred Russian. From the Hungarian perspective, the disinclination or antipathy to speaking Russian is even more acute, and I'm not just thinking of 1956....much more to it than just that tragedy.
As Fred mentions, the extent of Russian influence on "Eastern Europe" and "Central Europe" is probably under-estimated by current N. American tourists, who may not be fully aware of the history of the eastern and central European countries from 1946 to the early 1990's. You are seeing a part of Europe that is distinctly different, in its historical context, from the Western European countries.
Russian versus German preference is only one of the indicators.
Pamela writes: But, is it really that different here in NYC? We have two train stations--Penn and Grand Central. You have metro North and New Jersey Transit and the Long Island RR. Then there is the PATH system and of course the subway!
It can be confusing, but the difference is that when something seems not to be going according to plan I can ask a fellow passenger or transit employee or help. And contrary to the stereotype people often hold about New Yorkers, I've never had anything but help when I've asked if this is the right subway stop or where the subway entrance is (sometimes the signs seem to be hiding around the corner), in getting from JFK or Newark into Manhattan, etc.
I'm not one who insists/expects people in Europe speak English. I figure out train times in advance, where the station is, etc. I learn enough polite expressions & phrases to order in a restaurant, buy something in a store, ask where the restroom is, etc. It's just that it feels so brittle / intimidating. As long as things are working its fine, but I never would have been able to come up with enough German to ask a local in the S-bahn station how to get to the airport when the downtown Munich stops were closed for the weekend. I feel much more confident asking someone how to get to an Air Train station if the LIRR was not running that weekend.
@Chris F. I have no trouble reading the posted timetables in train stations, on-line, etc. My comment was that in the US, most people would not have experience reading a timetable because of unfamiliarity with train travel. Rail travel is something most US residents never do in the US. I have traveled with Americans who are completely baffled looking at the typical schedule that is posted in rail stations in Europe. I am not proud of that.
Stan,
Americans probably should be more flexible, if they are to open themselves up to the joys of Europe travel.
It's different from here.
I think that's part of why we go.
I agree with the need to be flexible on using trains and reading or rather cracking the schedule. Before doing all this scheduling on line in English, there was a book in Germany that gave the summer schedules, "Die Städteverbindungen" (maybe they're still in print), all in German, the text as well as the schedules. Get one of those at a Hbf, you were set for rail travel if most of the trip was in Germany, not just in one region. It was great for planning routes as to when the trains ran from where to where.
German and Austrian train schedules are easy to figure out, much more so than in France, especially, if you don't know French geography.
My first trip to Fontainebleau from Paris went easily, no problems. Several years later I did the same day trip but got tripped up, confused on the stops (where I almost got off at the wrong stop) since I didn't know any of the stops in between and trying to crack that fold out train schedule, it was baffling. Knowing the geography would have helped.
In Belgium you'll hear the train announcements made in 5 languages, not just in two....just to cover all the bases.
@Kent Absolutely agree. Unfamiliarity with rail travel is why there are so many HELP ME questions on this forum.
We love traveling on trains anywhere but esp. in Europe. There are a few issues that you should be aware of. You definitely want to walk the outside length of the train to find the car you are in. It is clearly marked on the outside. Do not get on the first car and try to drag your stuff.
People in certain countries, generally in Southern Europe, do not respect the reserved seat designation. They will sit in the best seat and pretend to be asleep or not be able to understand what you are showing them on your ticket. Conductors, if one can be found, are not helpful. Live with it! This is their country.
However, I must say that you can leave your luggage in the baggage area and it will be safe. There is no real reason to spend extra for upgraded seats. Most are very comfortable.
Also trains go through beautiful country! Not the back end of the country.
Enjoy!
Chris, I appreciate the links that you post; I like having the entire schedule at hand.
Anyone can make a mistake reading a schedule or boarding the wrong train at a split track, I've seen people wait for a train that will never come because it doesn't run that day (a misreading of posted schedule symbols). Help is nearby, just ask.
Lee... I am sure if I spoke German we would have been in good shape, however my little bit of Spanish did not help! That part of the trip did feel as though we were moving backward in time... however, it all worked out beautifully and Prague is one of my favorite cities.
Fred,
Städteverbindungen still exist, though DB now only prints them for bigger cities, you can get a printable timetable between any two stations on the DB website, which is compiled "offline" and e-mailed to you 5 minutes later.
SBB (Swiss railways) still do Städteverbindungen at all large stations. These are all online. click here, then click on the first letter of the station (e.g. Z for Zürich), then click on the column "City timetables" against the station name. The "Departure" column is the yellow departures poster for each station.
@ Chris...thanks for the updated information on "Die Städteverbindungen." In the 1980s and '90s relying on the Städteverbindungen was a big help in planning the train routes and departures or doing any spontaneous, unplanned routes in Germany. Given the digital age and all that, it only stands to reason that now it is published only for the big cities. The individual timetables are helpful too which one finds inside the DB Reisezentrum.
The best way to avoid trains not running on certain dates is to do it yourself at the DB ticket machine getting a time table print out within a given time frame from A to B...as long as you aren't holding up the line behind you.
In 2001, I bought a Städteverbindungen book but gave it away a week later when I realize all that information was more readily available online and the book was too heavy. I subsequently paid 5€ for the DB Reise-Service CD to put on my netbook, since it didn't add any weight. It put all the schedules for all over Europe on my PC offline, so I didn't need Internet connection to plan a trip, even when traveling. Now I see they have also discontinue the CD (one of the great things about the CD was that it also gave me the layout of more German stations than you can get from Bahn.de).
I guess everyone is using the Internet now so they felt there was no need for the book or CD. I even installed a Bahn Navigator Ap on my tablet.
Ah, the menetrend (the timetable in Hungarian). When we lived there, my friend and i faithfully hoarded ours, and yes spent many hours poring over the possibilities that it opened to us . . . nothing quite like having a whole timetable in front of you.
This has been a long-lived thread.
Just today I realized that, after several previous trips to Paris during which I used the Metro, I was absolutely confused by a statement in Rick's Paris guidebook about "carnets can be shared among travelers."
What does that mean?
So are we N. Americans doomed to be confused by Europe's mass transit systems?
"So are we N. Americans doomed to be confused by Europe's mass transit systems?"
I guess we are doomed to be confused because we have nothing in the US to compare with it. We are not doomed to be intimidated however. There is a difference.
Good luck to anyone that needs a train in Germany the next 2 days. The strikes will cause chaos and if you need to catch a flight and are not in the city where the airport is located, best go the day before or find some alternate ways.
SORRY - I GUESS I MISUNDERSTOOD THE RS PARIS TALK...IGNORE THIS ;)
I didn't realize until after we had our second trip to Paris that hubby and I could share one of the metro/carnet tickets - each time we both used a separate one. Then was watching the RS talk about travelling in France and he (or the guy doing the talk) mentioned in Paris about sharing the tickets - did not even know and was kicking myself, because I'm sure we went thru a couple of packets each trip. Well, I know for our return this year! If anyone hasn't watched the Rick talks, look em up on youtube! (under travel skills I think). Will def be rewatching before our return...
Now I am confused about Nicole P's last comment.
Here is what I got from what she just wrote.
I read it that she thinks that two people can ride on one of the 10 individual tickets that are in what is called a carnet.
Actually each person needs their own ticket for each ride. So two people sharing the 10 tickets in a carnet could take 5 metro rides each.
If you had a group of 10 people they would each need one fo the tickets from the carnet.
This is what is meant by sharing a carnet.
Until I am corrected (or others confirm) this is how it is supposed to work.
What an interesting read!
Unfamiliarity with rail or public transit in general has got to be a contributing factor. I know it is for me as I live in part of the states where that sort of thing is pretty scarce. On top of that is the fact that we all learn differently: one person might be able to absorb all the info they need from a printed page or video but that's not true of everyone. I'm a hands-on learner who has to DO it before it makes sense; it's the way my brain works. And that's difficult when the first opportunity you HAVE to do it is in foreign country after 20 hours with no sleep.
Maybe that's why I feel for the people I see struggling to understand what appears to be so straightforward to almost everyone else. I don't know if they're more frustrated with not being able to grasp the intricacies (Lee, your post about Verkehrsverbünden lost me by the 2nd paragraph) or because they don't want to look like an idiot. Or both.
But the day I finally cracked the Italian rail system (or a large part of it, anyway), the heavens opened and the angels sang, I swear!!!
Kathy,
I know what you mean.
I think the fact that, in one more post, this topic will be at 100 posts--indicates that there are many of us who have questions about how to use the European trains and other mass transit systems.
I know that, today, I had a question about the Metro (which I asked and was answered on another thread), even though this is a 3rd or 4th trip to Paris and I'd used the Metro before many times. But I just didn't remember something.
One more post and this thread will hit the century mark (100+ posts on a thread). I never thought so when I started the thread.
Rail strike in Germany. When is the last time there was a strike at auto rental sites?
Editing: Sorry, the above is too brief and more provocative than I intended. That was just a single thought on a complex subject. Zoe makes a good point below.
Roy, when was the last time you needed a tow truck for a railway car? Or got lost en route to your destination by train (although I am pretty sure I could)? Just saying, every mode of transportation has its pros and cons. Backup plans are always good.
OK - my bad I guess...I'll have to go listen to that talk again! I guess I confused where he said people could share the carnet...I thought he meant two people could share one individual tix...(I mean, I know two people can share the whole pack...I misunderstood)
When was the last time you got a ticket because the train went too fast or because it entered a traffic limited zone?
Lee, I always get a ticket when I ride a train. 😀
We were on an ill advised trip from Avignon to Florence by train in one day which meant 12 hours and four trains. Asked four times four different station attendants which track for the TGV to Lyon. They switched tracks late and made the announcement in French of course. A train pulled up that had Lyon on the sign so we boarded and off we went. Found our seats which were occupied and the conductor then informed us that we were going to Gare de Lyon (in Paris) which for the uninitiated is like wanting to go to Pennsylvania and ending up at Penn Station. Ended up flying to Florence the next day which meant airfare, extra hotel stay and forfeited night at the booked hotel in Florence. A costly and aggravating mistake to be sure.
We laugh about it now but it wasn't funny at the time.
Concur -- I've had trouble at the Avignon rail station more than once. The people at the first window tend to be nice but from there on to the platforms seems to be mostly improvisation. I figured it can't just be the language barrier because native speakers were asking me which platform to go to, and if they think I look like I know what is going on, you know there's a very low bar.
