Amsterdam Votes to Ban Large Cruise Ships From City Center

There was already a thread about this news. However this thread was closed by the webmaster because it went off topic.
See here; https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/netherlands/amsterdam-takes-drastic-measures-to-control-tourism

Dutch_traveler, maybe we can do a better job with this thread.

To keep it on topic, I think we as travelers need to consider the quality of life of the locals as opposed to more selfish pursuits. Personally I would be disappointed if limitations on tourism affected me, but I also realize there are more important things than me and what I want to do.

I think Big Mike is trying to break the record of two topics getting shut down in a week 😅

If we look narrowly at the environmental concerns- to me this action achieves nothing. You just move the pollution of the ship out of the city centre, but then add more pollution with all the buses being run to bring people in from the remote dock or Ijmuiden or Rotterdam.

Given that, as a percentage of the total tourists, cruise passengers are a very, very small number, and most of them will still come to Amsterdam from wherever the ships now dock it doesn't address the "plague of locusts" issue either.

To me this feels like gesture politics. As a cruise passenger I loved Amsterdam before most of the terminal was sold into private use. On that basis, and on the aura of welcome to the city (a hard thing to define) I massively prefer Rotterdam anyway- Rotterdam has a really good terminal building and you get a real welcome there.

Some really good science needs to be produced showing how much pollution (in terms of Nitrogen oxide truck equivalents) is produced at Amsterdam airport and in the course of their fights by all the arriving low cost airlines every single day. That would be taking climate change seriously, but would likely hurt the economy too much.

I hope the webmaster lets this comment through!!

How many buses or trains does it take to bring in the equivalent of 3000 cruise passengers all at once? It would take a lot and it would take it slowly. It would not be a horde all at once.

Good for Amsterdam!!

“The city’s executive branch still needs to work out the details and it was unclear when the measure might be implemented. No year has been mentioned,” said de Graff. For now, he said, “It is business as usual at the terminal.” Cruise Port Amsterdam also operates the river cruise terminals near the city center, but it wasn’t immediately clear whether those docks would need to move as well.

Above from the link Big Mike provided.

Seems it will be a while before folks will have their plans affected.

As for 'too many tourists', it seems the easiest solution is to limit the number of hotel rooms, or require a minimum number of days to be there. This would eliminate RS type tour groups that are there only 2-3 days.
With a 5-7 day minimum, the hotels could go to a once a week laundry schedule and save water and power.
Fewer well heeled tourists would dampen the need for lots of crowded airplanes, reducing pollution ( or at least slowing the growth) even more.

It is a question of political will. And overcoming the 'not in my back yard' mindset. ( e.g., wind farms and solar panel 'lakes' where no one can see them, and they disturb nothing in nature. )

If there were an easy solution, it would have been done already.

When I joined this Forum a few years ago, Venice was the flavour of the month for cruise banishment. It's been done, but Venice still has a tourism problem. Out of 20,000,000 tourists expected in Amsterdam this year, 155,000 are expected by cruiseship. Colour me suspicious that this is nothing more then politicians wanting to feel good about themselves.

Carlos, no sir. Maybe we can get it right this time?

Arm chair quarterbacking these issues is impossbible. You would have to understand way too many factors. Best left up to the locals to sort out what works best for them and wish them the best.

I note that there are real efforts being made to reduce the environmental impacts from cruise ships by the cruise ship companies themselves. The goal is a zero emissions ship.

Norway passed legislation that starting in 2025, only zero emissions ships will be allowed in UNESCO designated fjords.

Each location has their own way of addressing this topic. So far, no one from Amsterdam, Venice, or Norway has called to ask me my opinion on their policies so I will refrain from commenting on them now.

Hello BigMike

I am the person who. began a similar thread that was shut down because it got too controversial.

Thus I am only saying hello and I will be watching this thread.

I am not giving my opinion now but maybe later.

Hopefully, more and more places will restrict large cruise ships from descending on their locale like locusts. Cruise ships add little to locations. They don't pay for hotels. They don't buy many dinners. They just clog up popular attractions.

I've never gone on a cruise, and at 70, I doubt I will in Europe.

I did some quick math and with Dubrovnik the 800,000 cruise ship tourists per year, if all they do is buy a beer and a burger in Dubrovnik all they contribute to the economy is the employment of somethig less than 1,000 people. Those people can easily find non-tourism jobs in another city in Croatia ... or since Croatia is EU they can move to Spain and work; and the tourism in Dubrovnik will be so much sweeter.

190 cruise ships per year allowed into Amsterdam a year (the current limit) is not even a pinprick in the 20 million tourists per year which Amsterdam gets.
Many ships had already left AMS several years before Covid due to the tourist tax imposed on each berth on the ship (occupied or not)- oh, no-one has mentioned that one!!
Those who say they only buy a "beer and a burger"- those who go on organised excursions help employ the bus drivers/canal boat crew etc. Those like me who travel independently off the ships give money to the local bus companies or to NS/Amsterdam metro to use the trains, if I had to pay to use the cross harbour ferries I would, but they are free.
Amsterdam is sometimes used as a turn round port. Sometimes with lines with multiple turn round ports that is not obvious, but it happens- my own UK line had a primary turn round port of Tilbury (London) but also used Amsterdam as a turn round port for the European market (those people had to travel and stay pre and/or post cruise in the city). Ships often bunker (refuel) at Amsterdam, and often take on food and drink supplies there- which employs people and brings in money to the economy.
All facts ignored by those in it merely for soundbites.

Seattle is a classic case where cruising has a major economic benefit- a port which is almost all turn-round cruises, very few day trip ships call there. A benefit which the city is actually able to enumerate- and was a huge miss in the Covid years. I guess the same is true of the cruise ports in Florida- although I haven't seen data for them.

These are not simple questions.

“ Out of 20,000,000 tourists expected in Amsterdam this year, 155,000 are expected by cruiseship. Colour me suspicious that this is nothing more then politicians wanting to feel good about themselves.”

That may be true if this was a stand alone decision. It’s not, it’s part of bigger plans aimed at reducing/controlling the flow of tourists and improving the air quality in the city.

“Arm chair quarterbacking these issues is impossbible. You would have to understand way too many factors. Best left up to the locals to sort out what works best for them and wish them the best.”

This, a 100% this! Unless one has up to date knowledge about the challenges that the city of Amsterdam is facing with regards to the increasing number of tourists and all the problems this causes and about the measures the city has already taken and is planning to take, it’s best not to comment on this one particular decision. But even then, the city council of Amsterdam, whose members were elected by the residents of Amsterdam, have come to this decision. Like it or not, that’s how a democracy works.

bostonphil7, as Johnny Carson would say, "I did not know that."

I suppose as long as the comments are related to travel and we don't pummel each other two much, this thread will be OK?

Mister E Basic Economy: I've read about cruise ships not bringing in much to the local economy as it's more of a "wham bam thank you ma'am" sort of visit.

ok so let me present a different or even an opposing view.

Let's assume that there are two cruise ships in port each carrying about 2,000 passengers.

So there are maybe 3,500 guests getting off the cruise ships along with crew and staff who have the day off.

But let's talk about the airport. I know that Amsterdam has a very large and heavily travelled airport.It is a major airport. How many planes come in per hour and leave per hour. Assume 200 passengers per plane.

There are pollutants and smells and noise at airports all because of planes.

There are hordes of people getting off planes at the same time or getting on planes at the same time. Airports are crowded and often chaotic and frantic. Getting to and from airports are often a living nightmare.

There are taxis and shuttles waiting to give a ride. There is public transportation from airports.Some persons leave their vehicles while traveling. Other passengers are getting picked up by someone.

And then there are the major rail stations, the ones that take passengers to different areas of Europe and perhaps further on.

How many trains come in hourly to Amsterdam and how many leave .

Train pollute. They can be noisy. They can deposit hundreds to thousands of human beings in a. very short period of time. People are rushing to the trains and people are rushing from the trains.

And there are taxis waiting to give you a ride . Perhaps shuttles and definitely public transportation.

I am responding to members saying that cruise ships are polluting the environment while depositing a lot of people in the same place about the same time who do not really add much to the local economy . Maybe it is all true

But maybe it is equally or almost true for planes and rail

I take one cruise a year and I sometimes have the feeling that I am seen as a giant dollar bill as I walk off the ship to the dock.

People should just stay home and read a book. Problem solved.

... let's talk about the airport.

Climate change has become the catch-all, much like what about the children.

They are trying to curb the daily dump / enslaught with the cruise ship reduction but threw in climate change to heighten the argument.

The airport, is a pretty large pass through airport, so many of those tourists don't go into Amsterdam proper.

People should just stay home and read a book.

You mean like "Take a trip and never leave the farm!"

“ But let's talk about the airport. ”

Like I wrote earlier, this isn’t a stand alone decision. There is a bigger picture and lots of other measures are taken as well, including reducing the maximum capacity of Schiphol Airport by 12%
https://simpleflying.com/dutch-government-wins-legal-case-cut-flights-amsterdam-schiphol-airport/

There are pollutants and smells and noise at airports all because of
planes.

Yes, that's why airports are built outside the cities they serve. To not pollute in those cities. Just like getting rid of the cruise ships from central Amsterdam will improve the air quality in the city.

How many trains come in hourly to Amsterdam and how many leave . Train
pollute. They can be noisy.

There are probably hundreds of trains every day at Amsterdam Centraal. But while they make a bit of noise, the amount of pollution from the trains is negligible.

They can deposit hundreds to thousands of human beings in a. very
short period of time. People are rushing to the trains and people are
rushing from the trains.

Yes, but what does this have to do with cruise ships?

I am responding to members saying that cruise ships are polluting the
environment while depositing a lot of people in the same place about
the same time who do not really add much to the local economy . Maybe
it is all true

That is often the case. https://www.uib.no/en/news/94325/cruise-passengers-spend-less-despite-offers-land

But maybe it is equally or almost true for planes and rail

It isn't. Nowhere near as much.

Unless one has up to date knowledge about the challenges that the city
of Amsterdam is facing with regards to the increasing number of
tourists and all the problems this causes and about the measures the
city has already taken and is planning to take, it’s best not to
comment on this one particular decision.

Should I interpret that as meaning that if my opinion doesn't agree with yours that I should stay quiet? It's obvious from afar that Amsterdam has a tourism problem and I created a post in the past saying I'm intrigued by some of the ideas it is trying such as advertising other places in the country. But as another poster commented, slapping the climate change flag on a solution doesn't automatically make it a solution. To me it's a lazy politician's way (in any country and of any party) of showing that he/she is kind, caring and most importantly, deserves to be reelected.

“Should I interpret that as meaning that if my opinion doesn't agree with yours that I should stay quiet?”

No, that’s not what I meant. However if you’re not fully up to date about all the issues that Amsterdam is facing and all the measures that are taken to try and handle the problem, it’s not really fair to pick out 1 single measure you don’t like and label it a measure that’s only taken so politicians can feel good about themselves. Especially since this isn’t a decision of one politician that hopes to be re-elected. It’s a decision taken by the city council of Amsterdam.

Carlos, no sir. Maybe we can get it right this time?

It's always difficult with topics like this that actually affect day-to-day lives, though I'll admit it's much more interesting than "where's the best beach in Barcelona?"

Badger

some airports are built within the cities that they serve. Those are the very easy to get to airports.

I think Lisbon is one of those airports. Even Boston is a very close in airport.

But also some of those airports built outside the cities they serve are built very close to rural areas where persons already had homes.

Also, Badger, some persons live under flight paths. I was once visiting someone who did and you had to stop talking when a plane was coming in or leaving. And this was in Los Angeles. Tv's shake. Dishes shake

All that I am trying to do is express a different view about cruise ships and the complaints about them from persons who don't cruse. All the complaints may be perfectly valid but I have viewpoints too.

Dutch _Traveler

The problems that Amsterdam faces is the problems that many if not most of other cities all over the world are facing.

Over Tourism is a problem most places these days. Over crowding is a problem most places these days.

Climate change is a huge problem It is going to have to be dealt with.

I have no issue with the Amsterdam City Council doing what they must do. My graduate degree is in Urban Planning and I am a very strong environmentalist.

I have not been to Amsterdam. Actually I had a cruise booked from Amsterdam to Reykjavik for August 2022 but Norwegian had to cancel because of supply chain problems. I was supposed to be sailing on a brand new ship and it was not able to get built in time for my trip.

I was doing a lot of research about Amsterdam on this site and I believe you were one of many persons who was helpful. If you can go into your history, you might see that you responded to boston phil many times over.

So I have no issue with the decisions made by your local government as they try to manage visitors and other environmental concerns.

I am responding to other member of this site when it comes to the subject of cruising and pollution. And I am not arguing. I am simply trying to present another viewpoint.

In Alaska, Norwegian is building a brand new cruise port several miles from Ketchikan. Ketchikan is the port most passengers want to visit. There is some grumbling because is adds time and money to get to Ketchikan and some passengers complain that other cruise lines port right in Ketchikan. And you can walk right off the ship and you are there.

I think that Norwegian is doing it so as to manage crowds and pollution. The new port is in a beautiful and still uncrowded part of Alaska. It is going to be beautiful and help the locals, not hurt them, but help them. Tourists will be able to explore that part of Alaska and not even have to go to Ketchikan if they so desire.

Norwegian also did this in Icy Straight Alaska and converted a very poor fishing village in Mexico into a lovely very modern cruise port which is helping the local people and economy.

I hope that I am not getting off topic.

One of these days, I would love to get to Amsterdam. And I applaud your city council being so concerned and aware and trying to keep Amsterdam safe, uncrowded and clean.

The crux of the matter is over-tourism is increasingly grating on the nerves of the locals, and naturally politicians will respond to this angst. That's what a democracy does.

Perhaps when a cruise ship dumps up to 3,000 people at a time it becomes the straw that broke the camel's back, and thus people complain to their elected representatives.

The issue is frustration by locals at being inundated with masses of people flooding their towns and cities. We have to put ourselves in their shoes. Quality of life needs to be addressed.

and one more thing.

For those who say that we cruise passengers do not support then local economy. In 2019, I took a cruise to the Baltic.

I paid for an excursion at every port. Either my meal was included with the excursion or paid on my own but I had a meal wherever I went.

One port was Tallinn and we went to Old Town. There were several shops which catered to tourists. One couple. bought a beautiful unique one of a kind Russian Stacking Dolls which cost in the hundreds. other persons went into an Amber store and bought a very beautiful piece of Amber jewelry also costing in the hundreds. They were both beautiful but I suspect we could have gotten the same things in a non tourist more local area for much less.

In October I am sailing from Southampton to Lisbon . I am spending 6 nights in London pre cruise. I will be eating, buying things ands going places. Then I go to Southampton where I swill spend the night before cruising. I am paying for a hotel and I will be eating. Then I am going to Bruges, two ports in France, three in Spain, and Porto before Lisbon. I will be spending four nights in Lisbon post cruise and I will be eating, shopping and doing things.

I have paid for an excursion at every port. I will be eating whether it comes with my excursion or on my own. Maybe I will be buying things and or going places or both but I will be contributing to the local economy.

And I am on a budget and have to watch what I spend. Other guests (as they call us) are obviously more fortunate. They can afford private or smaller excursions. They can buy more and better without blinking an eye.

So we cruisers do contribute to the local economy. I sail off season and often towards the end of the season and our local tour guides are very glad to see us. They are not shy in letting us know that we are one of the last tours they will have until spring and how high the cost of living is.

In Stockholm I took a walking tour of Old Town and because it was the end of the season, many restaurants had already closed early. Our local guide took us to a sports bar where we had hamburgers. It was not local food but it was definitely a local place. Food was ok but I thought it was pricey. i felt there were better places that we could have been taken. I felt that our tour guide was friends with the people who owned or managed the Sports Bar and she was doing them a favor by taking us there. There were not many diners. I also felt that she got a kick back from taking us there. She spent a lot of time telling us that because she was from another country, she could. not get health insurance and had to have this and that done. And we were the last group that she had because it was end of season.

So we do contribute to the local economy and in some to many cases, we might even get a little bilked.

I have said that when I am walking off of a cruise ship, I feel the locals are seeing us as giant dollar bills walking down from ship to port.

Now, it is ok to have issues with anything that I have said but please no screaming at me.

it’s not really fair to pick out 1 single measure you don’t like and
label it a measure that’s only taken so politicians can feel good
about themselves.

I never said I didn't like it, but yes, I'm saying I don't trust politicians to do anything unless there are self-serving points to be made. If the wind changes, so will the politician.

“Perhaps when a cruise ship dumps up to 3,000 people at a time it becomes the straw that broke the camel's back, and thus people complain to their elected representatives.”

Well, in Amsterdam the camel’s back has already been broken and not solely because of the cruise passengers. That’s why the city council has already taken measures and will continue to take new measures.
The city has already put severe restrictions on holiday rentals via platforms like Airbnb and they stopped giving out licenses to build new hotels. They increased the tourist tax for cruise passengers to €8 per passenger. Those that stay in a hotel need to pay a tourist tax of 7% of the room rate plus an additional €3 per guest per night. Tourists who stay in holiday rental (Airbnb etc) pay a tourist tax of 10% of the room rate.
In addition to that the city council banned guided tours thru the Red Light district, banned nuisance causing beer bikes from the city center etc etc. And this year, they even launched a publicity campaign to actively discourage British stag parties from coming to Amsterdam.
In addition to taking measures to control visitor numbers, the city of Amsterdam is also trying to improve the air quality inside the city center. Driving a car in the city center is discouraged. The number of park permits for residents is limited. Parking your car on the street alongside one of the beautiful canals will cost you €7,50 per hour. Etc etc etc.
My point is that all these measures were taken previously without causing much discussion on this forum. But somehow this particular measure has gained a lot of attention and is being singled out and criticized (by some). I feel that it shouldn’t be singled out, it should be discussed in the bigger picture of what the city of Amsterdam is trying to do in terms of controlling the number of visitors and improving air quality.

BigMike

You use an example of 3,000 persons being dumped onto a port. I do not know what the number is but some of the passengers prefer to stay on the ship. However some of the crew and staff get some time off and leave the ship which they really look forward to.

Some passengers do their own thing but others like me pay for an excursion. There are buses waiting for us which take us away. The cruise lines are amazingly well organized. A restaurant will know we are coming. Sometimes attractions as well and definitely the shops. The buses take us passengers on excursion to specific areas and shops.

The problem is overcrowding and over tourism. Quality of life is now an issue every where. Over tourism is a problem most places and so is over crowding.

I have no issue with what Amsterdam is doing when it comes to large cruise ships. Key West, Florida has done the same thing and other cities are now banning large cruise ships from their port. I am just responding to your discussion. If and when I can get to Amsterdam on a cruise ship, I will travel on one of the smaller ones or I will be porting wherever and take a longer excursion to Amsterdam

I could also fly to Amsterdam for several days or a week. I do not have to take a cruise.

I also travel off season and even then towards the end of the off season.

I think that Norwegian is building some new smaller than the very large cruise ships.

Dutch_Traveler

I am in complete agreement with what your city council is doing.

The problems that Amsterdam is facing my city and other cities around the globe are also facing.

Rudeness and lack of caring and respect has become a terrible problem. I am talking about visitors. Some have no respect for the places they are visiting or the people.

It has to be addressed.

This is pretty interesting.

https://www.tripplo.com/uk/amsterdam-tourism-statistics-and-trends#:~:text=As%20of%202018%2C%20there%20were,is%20in%20the%20tourism%20sector.

So, how many of the 69,000 jobs would you eliminate? Would 20% work? That would be 14,000 unemployeed people living a better quality of life in a city with about a half billion euro less in infrastructure improvment, but without so many pesty tourists around.

The point, again, is this is way too complicated an issue for arm chair quarterbacking. I am not smart enough or involved enough or edetated enough to support it or critisize it; but I do respect them for what they are going through and the hard decisions they are having to make. Cause there are loosers in this game. Some will get hurt .... hopefully for the greater good. Not my place to call the winners and loosers in a society and a culture that I am not part of ... so my holiday will be a tad sweeter.

Nick, some of the larger cruise ships have up to 6,000 passengers, but numbers vary.

Perhaps when thousands or people are released on a city at once it's quite an inundation of humanity in one fell swoop.

“ Are a few people arriving on a cruise ship really any worse that the masses arriving at the airport or disembarking from yet another bus trip?”

No, there not any worse. Which is exactly why the city of Amsterdam is taking all sorts of measures to try and control the influx of visitors into the city. See my post upthread for examples.
They don’t just take this one specific measure which is somehow now singled out on this forum.

Not too dissimilar to what is being reviewed and discussed in Venice

https://www.overtourismvenice.mit.edu/

Of course, tourists are welcome, but the purpose of preserving heritage is lost: you invest public resources for preserving heritage, and then the beneficiary is essentially a private industry that has not contributed to the effort, and on top, it alienates the citizens. To achieve a balance, a management process is extremely important.”

Francesco Bandarin, UNESCO Assistant Director-General for Culture

bostonphil7, excellent post. Yes, it's complicated.

Perhaps what we are seeing with Amsterdam and elsewhere is frustration boiling over at the congestion. I've also been reading about a lack of common courtesy and respect. I doubt that's an issue for those on this forum.

“Forty per cent of the cruise ships stop for four hours. They don’t give the city economic return, and thousands of people disembark, create great mobility issues and then leave. It is an industry we have to limit,” she told British newspaper The Times in February.

Monterey Bay in California has had little to no ships since before COVID. It used to see around seven to 12 a year and this year several operators were scheduled to visit once again. But in February, the city sent a clear signal to cruise lines that it doesn’t want them to return.

While some cruise tourists spend money it is not considered enough to offset the negatives? Of course some jobs would be lost and it may be worth it. Ask Monterey Bay, California.

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/04/20/cruise-ships-erosion-air-pollution-and-overtourism-are-driving-cities-towards-bans

Dutch_traveler, it seems like you are a bit like Peter and the dike, having to stand against an onslaught of armchair quarterbacks with little understanding of either the complexities of the situation or the multifaceted approaches that are being implemented/ contemplated. I noted a few long stream of consciousness posts railing against trains, planes and automobiles, while touting the virtues of cruising. When Schiphol, (which has been in the same location for over 100 years) as a major international hub, sees a large proportion of passengers merely connecting there and never leaving the airport. And apparently ignorant of the fact that public transport buses there run on HVO, not petroleum. Or that Dutch trains run on wind generated power, not diesel. And then there are all those emission free bicycles : ) Seems to me that your country is doing more than many in fighting pollution and carbon emissions.

As for Amsterdam's efforts to moderate overtourism, I agree that that is something that needs to be decided soberly and thoughtfully by those who have been chosen by its citizens, and not by anyone else.

The bottom line here is city officials see cruisers and bringing in tons of people, but not money relative to those who arrive by plane and train, who are more likely to be staying in hotels, eating in restaurants, and spending exponentially more money.

To me it's not complicated in that sense.

But to that bottom line, let's not forget that indirectly, the cruise lines bring about 5000 jobs to the Amsterdam economy through supply chains that fit-out those ships with fuel, food, maintenance, etc. This is the money spent and jobs provided that isn't talked about when complaints are made that the tourists aren't spending money.

public transport buses there run on HVO, not petroleum.

What is HVO? That's an acronym not often used in the UK... I've never heard it before.

Nigel it's an acronym for Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil. Perhaps you know it as 'green diesel'?

Nigel, here it is:

Hawaiian Volcano Observatory | U.S. Geological Survey
Health Volunteers Overseas

You're welcome.

As far as I am aware in the north of the Country there are still a number of non electrified rail routes, which run with diesel trains and are on a very long franchises to be converted to bi-mode- battery and diesel, but no plans before 2040 to electrify the lines.
But of course the batteries still need to be charged.

Also from what I am aware not all buses run on bio-diesel/HVO, but a rapidly increasing proportion of services are being operated by electric buses. I think most new contracts are being let on the basis of using electric vehicles, so are zero emission.
While the railways may use green electricity, according to Wikipedia fossil fuel electricity generation in the Netherlands is not being phased out until 2029 (and currently accounts for over half of all electricity generated), so some of the electricity to charge the buses is still coming from fossil fuel generation- just emissions being differently accounted for.