Alcohol...is it a cultural thing?

It's interesting reading about problems with alcohol and young people in the UK...very similar to the U.S. I recall reading that thousands of drunk British spring breakers (students) caused problems in resorts south of Barcelona this year. Locals don't like it, but the kids inject alot of money into the local economy. Not to single out our friends in the UK, but it seems to me that you just hear more about alcohol issues in the headlines there compared to other places in Europe (although I certainly know alcoholism and abuse are everywhere).

I'll add that it is, indeed, quite convenient to be able to take a bottle of beer from the hotel room mini-bar and finish it on the walk over to whatever site one might be heading to (in say Paris) instead of having to slam it down before you leave your room like you have to do here.

The Italians seem to have a very relaxed attitue towards wine drinking. I've seen families eating in restaurants where everyone, even toddlers, are drinking wine. They watered down the wine they gave the chilren, mostly water for very young children, and then less water to wine as the children got older. Once we had an opportunity to have dinner with an Italian wine broker and his family. His 16 year old daughter had an unwatered glass of wine with her meal and discussed the wine's merits with her father. And, from our travels, it appears that in Italy it is considered extremely shameful and embarassing to be drunk in public.

The only other European alcohol anecdote that comes to my mind happened the first time I was in Paris. We were sitting outdoors at a cafe late at night having a glass of wine. A young man said, "You are Americans, how do you shoot Tequila?" It turns out he had been an exchange student in the US and couldn't remember the order of the lime, salt and tequila. (I didn't know either) He ordered tequila, lime and salt and we were quite amused to watch him as he sipped the Tequila instead of killing it. I think one shot of tequila lasted him the whole night. and I think it was a much wiser way to "shoot" tequila than the way young Americans do it.

Jo hit the nail on the head for one of the biggest reasons why European society is generally more tolerant of alcohol use among young people- most teenagers can't drive, thus eliminating one of the biggest dangers of alcohol use in the young. Both North America and Europe seem to agree that mixing alcohol and driving in the young is a recipe for disaster. We've chosen to restrict the drinking, they've chosen to restrict the driving. Who's right? Who knows?

This could be prolonged discussion since most posters, including self, will be giving opinions, perceptions with little facts. I do think European are more relax about alcohol. However have also read that some country have problems with excessive youth drinking just like the US. Hard to say whether one is better than the other. Almost you need to understand the history of beer and wine. You drank it because water could kill you or at least make you very sick. You will also find European advertising and TV much looser about nudity and sex.

Personally I think there is a genetic bases to alcoholism in that some people can be more predisposed that others. We came from a family with a lot German influence in which beer from a young age was at the table and wine also. After 50 years of half a beer here or glass of wine there, there are no alcoholics in the family. Daily drinking in moderation is not going to make you alcoholic. In fact, the evidence may be that a glass of wine a day is better than an apple a day at keeping the doctor away. I do both -- why take chances.

"Europeans seem to drink wine or beer with dinner as a norm. They seem to have a much more relaxed attitude towards young people drinking."

In general, true, but alcoholism is still a big problem in many societies in Europe, too. Russia is particularly bad. The Russians are famous for their abuse of vodka.

"I wonder if growing up with wine at dinner makes it less of a temptation to sneak and get drunk as a teenager??"

I think so. Parental influence and cultural norms play a big part here.

"I must admit that I worry that if we drank every day, we are more predisposed to becoming alcoholics."

Most experts agree that alcoholism is largely a genetic pre-disposition. There are certainly other factors, but in general, genetics seems to play a large part in determining whether a person becomes an alcoholic.

Cindy,,
I grew up with a family member who was alcoholic. My father ( not the alcoholic btw) is french,, so we also drank wine at home,, and even as children were offered some at Christmas birthdays etc.

I beleive alcoholism is genectic. Out of three children in our family,, one became alcoholic,, two did not,, and we all had same drinking exsposure growing up.

I do think Europeons have a healthier attitude towards drinking in general. A glass of wine/beer at dinner does not an alcoholic make,, and since drinking is present in the home in a more normal way, I do beleive less kids sneak out and have KEG parties soon as they leave for college. The USA is one of only a few countries in the world that have the high drinking age of 21. Most other countries do range from 18 to 19. I do not believe there are LESS alcoholics in the States,, nor more ( so basically I think drinking age may influence some things, but not rate of alcoholism)

That said, I beleive every country has alcoholics, and there are always a group of people who over drink( thinking of soccer hooligans )

Personally , as a youth I did not think drinking was such a big deal, since I had been exposed to normal drinking at home. I also learned about wine before most of my friends ( who seemed to think Lemon Gin was a fine spirit,, LOL )

Most of my French friends view wine as a food, not as alcohol. It complements a meal. It aids with digestion. The right or wrong wine can change the taste of the food, as can the wrong glass change the taste of the wine.

Many Europeans even give their kids watered down glasses of wine. It is only in our puritanical society that alcohol is seen as bad.

I personally believe alcoholism is not just genetic but behavioral, emotional and situational as well. For some alcohol is their drug of choice, for others it could be heroin, cocaine, or food. It's a crutch to fall back on. It's something to numb the pain.

As Pat said, having a drink a day with a meal will not make you an alcoholic. If anything you might get healthier as it's supposed to be good for your heart.

It's when you start relying on it and need it that alcohol becomes a problem.

Believe me, AA is alive and well in every country in Europe. Alcoholism knows no country boundaries, either you will be or you won't, and what your parents allowed or didn't allow, probably doesn't have too much of an affect on the alcoholism rate.

That said, here are some of my thoughts. In Germany, teens can drink beer and wine at age 16, kids often get served sekt at birthday parties from the age of 12 and up and they can drink everything else at age 18. The biggest difference though, is that they cannot get a drivers license until 18 and it costs a bundle. Usually in the range of a 1000 euro or more.

There is lots of public transportation to use though, or bikes to get around. Most kids figure in the cost of a shared taxi home from the club as part of the expense of the evening. As far as drunk driving goes, you WILL lose your license and there are no exceptions for those who need it for their jobs. It is very expensive to get it back too.

Binge drinking and coma drinking are a massive problem in the UK with teens and young adults and it is a problem over here too, but I think not quite as bad. This type of drinking causes death, extremely sad deaths, and all in the name of fun. Since I don't live in the US, I don't know if it is as much of a problem, but dying in a car crash from drunk driving may be more prevalent there than the alcohol poisoning or suffication on vomit here. Which is worse? I guess the car crashes, as they take others out with them.

So, I am for the drink at a younger age, drive at an older age, provide money for a taxi and build more public transportation. I guess this is healthier.

Sorry for the doom and gloom post.

If you can have a glass of wine with dinner and don't want to open another bottle, you should be fine. I know that I cannot.....

I think attitudes toward alcohol are somewhat healthier in most of Europe. It's a beverage, not so much a drug.

Generally, I don't think alcohol creates abusive people. Abusive and self-abusive individuals tend more toward over-indulgence with alcohol - possibly to assign the responsibility for their behavior to something else other than their own personalities.

The former USSR is particularly bad. I was in the Ukraine a couple of years ago and went to buy a meat pastry. Behind the stand was a yellow tank truck that looked like one of the those that is used to water down dust at construction sites, but was about one quarter the size. Turns out it was full of the weak beer they drink. Then I saw a girl about 9 or 10 with a glass of beer.

Having said that, I agree that Europeans seem to have a healthier attitude toward beer. Even in a Dublin pub, when I asked for a "fake" (non-alcoholic) beer, the bartender could recommend a several including a German one.

I have found that higher end French wine (Bordeaux, for example) at higher end restaurants can be incredibly pricey. But the "wine guys/gals" were still nice and had no trouble looking at the better values on the lists. They actually seemed to recognize my appreciation and respond to it.

I appreciate the more relaxed attitude towards alcohol that you find in Western Europe. The contrast with the US is great, we seem to feel that the only way to control, is to severely restrict every aspect of it, from availability, to drinking age, to where you can imbibe, etc.

As a result, I think the predominate share of Europeans have a much more mature attitude towards alcohol, one not shared by many Americans.

An example would be what we call "open container" or public drinking. It was refreshing for lunch to get a sandwich and a beer from a street cart and have an impromptu picnic in the park. In the US, this gets you arrested, but there it is lunch, and despite what our fears are in the US, you did not see hordes of Europeans wandering the streets drinking (well maybe after a World Cup match).

Similarly, if I were to bring a beer for lunch at work, that gets me fired under a zero tolerance policy. At our French facility, wine is on the company cafeterias lunch menu, apparently with no worker issues.

I notice also that when Europeans imbibe, it is in context with some other activity, a stop at a cafe at a certain time, as part of a meal, as part of a conversation at a bar later in the night. As a result, I rarely saw Europeans drinking to excess. It seems in the US that often drinking is the context for alcohol use, and to excess common.

I've been reading a book called 'Last Call' which pertains to Prohibition. A very interesting read on alcohol usage in the US prior to and after Prohibition as compared to Europe.

There is a lot of drinking that goes on in Europe and it's generally more accepted by the general populous than in the US. I still get a little shocked when I see the parish priest drinking a pint at the bar not that there is anything wrong with it but you just don't see it much in the US.

There's problems with binge drinking and alcoholics like everywhere else.

I did a professional continuing education course in Paris many years ago, and part of it was talking with French chemical dependency workers. We were told that alcohol is very pervasive in France. Very common to have some wine or beer at lunch, than an after work drink, then wine with dinner with maybe a apertif or digestif along with that. So, many others may not notice the pattern. Also, data suggest that public drunkeness may not be very prevalant there, but a very high rate of cirrosis of the liver and other liver diseases. So, alcohol is a problem, but it just looks different. So, some people may benefit from the early transitional use of alcohol approach, but if you've got that genetic trigger, look out. I remember asking about French attitude re: In the US, we tend to celebrate if some artist/writer gets & stays sober, even if the work "suffers". We were told that in France, they would focus more on the quality of the work and think that the destruction of the artist may be worth it.

There certainly is a different attitude. Public consumption and obsession with underage drinking just aren't a major issue in most of Europe. But as Jo points out, few young people can drive. The US 21 age came about soley due to large numbers of DUI deaths by young people. Now that those numbers have dropped, I've noticed considerable efforts by people to rationalize the higher age to the point of making it almost a crime against humanity if parents allow their teens some drinking (not talking about wild parties in the basement but limited social drinking with family). The result, IMO, has been that US teens are not taught responsible drinking the way European teens tend to be.

Attitudes and responsibility also vary throughout Europe. As others have noted, Russia has problems, binge drinking in the UK is an issue and summer vacation spots on the Mediteranean can get very roudy. But high taxes in Scandinavia limit over-indulging there and in places like Italy and Greece public drunkeness is a social taboo. But for most Europeans, the idea of drinking just to get drunk is much less common it seems than in the US.

Interestingly, I think that there is some concern about the glass containers. I went to the brewery tour in Bruges and they mentioned that they had to serve their beer in plastic glasses when one of the European Cup games was played locally. They had all sorts of police checking too that they didn't sneak in any glass containers! This was really frowned up as you don't want to drink a Belgian brew in plastic!

There is a binge drinking problem with the youth in the UK. A lot of it is because cheap alcohol is available, particularly in Scotland. It's a problem that concerns many people in the UK and Scotland in particular. I was reading the paper last week and it seemed like every other article was about a drunken man (or woman) attacking someone. Really appalling. The only good news is that they don't gun, but they do amazing damage with knives, boots and fists.

We spoke last week about the issue of drivers license expense. Not only is it expensive, not available until you are 18, it's also really hard! I've a friend who lives near Amsterdam and never drives, but he got his license years ago. He keeps it active, because he views it as an investment that he needs to stay on top of.

Pam

One interesting thing about Europe is that in many European countries the legal blood alcohol level for driving is ZERO.

Unfortunately Brits, especially young ones, have a deservedly bad reputation for binge drinking both at home and when on holiday abroad.

It seems to be a mainly Northern and Eastern European thing although more recently it is rearing its ugly head in Italy, much to their consternation. When in Venice earlier this year I saw a group of well dressed young Italians on a night out having to support a couple of their companions who were unable to walk unaided. I must say that that was the first time in over 30 years of visiting Italy that I have seen such a thing.

BTW - Some time ago I read about the bad behaviour and drinking of young Englishmen when on pilgrimage in Spain during the Middle Ages! So, sadly, it would seem that nothing changes.

Unfortunately, Russians' excessive consumption of alcohol is a stereotype that is derived largely from truth. Of course, I'm not saying that all or even most Russians are alcoholics, but it is a huge problem over there and has been widely acknowledge to be as such.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jo on her support of the drink younger/drive older model. I think driving is a much bigger responsibility with a lot more at stake than having a beer here and there. I wish Americans had less of a Puritanical view of alcohol, because that much restriction to such an age (pretty sure 21 is unheard-of in most of the western world) only encourages dangerous binge-ing.

Anna, I couldn't agree more! I am Canadian (in a province with 18 as a legal drinking age) and lived in the States from the ages of 22-25. What I saw in the bars was unbelievable to me! In bars with similar aged people (early 20's) they were acting like crazy teenagers to me! Maybe I'm biased (I'm sure I am) but many teens at home would go to bars and drink and dance crazily and overall act stupid. This lasts for a year or two until you realize that it's dumb and painful and expensive. I would go to the bar while living in the States and see 21 and 22 year olds acting like we did at 18 or 19 and feel embarrassed...! But when else would they have been able to do that?

Not saying that excessive drinking is okay (although I don't think it's always bad) but I do think it's pretty normal to go through the experimentation stages. I vote for earlier drinking, later driving for sure. Let's figure out how to handle the alcohol and get home safely without the aid of our own motor vehicle!

So many great comments...I'm really being enlightened reading thru them all!

I think the older driving age is an excellent idea for here in the States. And I don't think a younger drinking age would be bad, as so many underage kids drink anyway. I've gone thru three teenage girls getting their licenses...it's too easy! I don't think anyone is a competent driver at 16 completely sober!

My youngest daughter thought I was the most horrible mom in the world cuz I wouldn't let her get her license til she had a 3.0 gpa. Poor thing had a 2.9 until 3 months before her 18th birthday. I actually think she's a 'better' driver than her two older sisters were because she had to wait so long. She got lots of practice.

Everything is a cultural thing.

But alcohol is a drug and drinking is drug use. Call it inconsequential if you wan't, but let's not pretend it isn't drug use.

No one is drinking alcohol because they are thirsty. And fewer than you are willing to admit or believe are drinking just for the taste.

Some are looking for the drug effect. Many are drinking simply because they have been conditioned to believe the situation demands it (which is even more pathetic, I think).

You can argue that all drugs should be legal. It's a fair argument. But much of the "controversy" with alcohol use is based on the belief that alcohol isn't really a drug or is so weak a drug that you shouldn't think of it as one. That's precisely what makes it the most dangerous drug of all.

James, you have the answer. People drink to alter their consciousness, otherwise, we'd all be drinking lemonata (which is wonderful by the way). The nature of the disease of alcoholism is that they "need" that alteration to feel "normal" and cannot see the consequences that they pay in order to meet that need. Not all who drink are alcholics, but stats suggest that a good 10-15% of humans are, no matter what country or culture you live in. Some may use booze, some may smoke dope, some smoke opium, some watch Jersey Shore ;), but it's still out there.

Ever try a good Belgian beer? I'll drink a Chimay for it's taste anyday!

My husband and I grew up in families with very different attitudes towards alcohol. We have quite a history of alcoholism in my family, so it was understood that my sister and I were not to drink until we were legal to do so. My mother rarely had a drink. My husband's family is from Germany, he was able to have a shotglass of beer on holidays starting when he was 7.

When we go to Germany to visit his family, they drink us under the table. They have a much higher tolerance and don't understand that we don't go through a bottle of wine (or 2) every day at dinner. They're the type to never let your glass get empty, so by the end of the night, I have no idea how many glasses I've had. Luckily, I just have to stumble to the spare bedroom at the end of the night.

Several years ago, we were in a small town in Germany on the last day of school. Apparently, at least where we were, it was a tradition for the seniors to get stinkin' drunk first thing in the morning. Saw a few kids puking in the streets. Not what I was expecting at 9:30 in the morning.

And, yes, we've drank beer on the streets in Germany just because we could.

I might have a drink twice a month. I like exotic cocktails and infuse some liquor myself with herbs or fruit. My mother was an alcoholic but I have never had a problem.

I'm a big drinker, always have been. I've noticed that being a 'happy drunk' makes a big difference on if you are considered an alcoholic or not. Same as someone who consistently wins at gambling will rarely be called a 'gambling addict'.

I would have a lot more money if I never drank but at the same time I probably wouldn't have met a lot of the people I consider friends.

Alcohol has a wide range of flavors. The taste of single malt whisky alone has tremendous variety depending on whether you're drinking a peaty Islay malt or one from Speyside. Then there's bourbon which also has varieties. Then the beers. Goodness, lager, ale, the stouts, and then of course, as already mentioned all the Belgian beers and ales! And we haven't even begun to discuss wine! Oh, and gin and rum vary in taste as well. Of course, it can feel good to have slightly altered consciousness and many people drink too much, but most of us grow out of that phase quickly. It's sad when some don't and alcoholism is a completely different story as that is an illness that can be very distressing not only for the alcoholic, but all the friends and family. So, one should be careful about being judgmental about those who drink and those who don't.

Pam

there is some mightly tasty alcohol,, my goodness, an ice cold glass of a nice Rose on a hot afternoon can taste like heaven,, and a soft red Malbec on an winters eve,, sipped by the fire after skiing,, now those are tasty no matter what some may think..

amd one glass of wine does not get me drunk, and many of us only have one drink at a time,, like one Coke or one Sprite.

Okay, "everyone drinks to alter their consciousness" is exactly the Puritanical view of alcohol I was talking about. At least Randy's post didn't generalize, whereas John is just downright presumptuous.

I, for one, oftentimes wish that my favourite German or Belgian beers and all the wonderful local barleywines were not alcoholic, because I would prefer to savour the taste more without becoming intoxicated. Yes, there are people who drink to get drunk, whether it's once in a while or all the time, but please do not equate everyone with a Keystone-guzzling frat boy or an addict. This is exactly the unpleasant stigma that is often attached to drinking in this country, which is a direct result of its overbearing alcohol restrictions.

P.S.: Limonata is gross.

I have a lot of alcoholics in my family. Personally,
I do not care for the taste of alcohol. To each her or his own.

As for European attitudes, they tend to be less moralistic than American attitudes. Here in the USA,
everything is seen through puritanical eyes, from beer to nudity to the drinking age (which I feel is too high). I was never told that I couldn't drink as a child, I just never saw anything great in being drunk (probably because I lived near downtown and so was exposed to homeless men drinking wine from bottles inside paper bags); perhaps this as well as alcoholic relatives, formed my opinions against drinking - as well as the unappetizing taste.

Obviously the few people who believe wine and beer are only for altering the consciousness have never bothered to participate in tastings where wine and/or beer is paired with food. Getting a pairing exactly right alters only the flavors of the food for the better, not the consciousness of the person eating and drinking. By way of analogy, I made a fruit salad of watermelon, strawberries, nectarines and Santa Claus melon. The pairing of the Santa Claus melon (extremely sweet) with either the strawberries or the nectarines made each many times better than when eaten alone. The same can be said for a Gewuerztraminer paired with a spicy Thai dish or an earthy Burgundy paired with a grilled steak. I did my time as a stupid young adult, drinking to get drunk. As a mature adult, I have a great appreciation for the flavors of food, wine and beer and no interest in drinking to excess. As to the discussion about differing attitudes toward drinking, I think that some parts of Europe do have a healthier attitude and I think that more Americans are adopting this attitude and looking at alcohol as a compliment to food. Of course, I am part of the "PBS demographic" and there are many cooking and travel shows on the various PBS channels that speak to this attitude and I think this is a very good thing.

Not to mention all the wonderful dishes that use wine, liquor, or beer as a flavoring. The alcohol boils off, so getting drunk isn't even possible. Nobody eats boeuf bourguinon to alter their consciousness!

Santa Claus melon? I tell you, I learn something new all the time on this website.

Some of these replies reminded me of a couple of clichéd, overused, and suburban American terms probably not in wide use in Europe: “Foodie” and “pairings” (although I could be wrong). I’m pretty sure beer doesn’t need to be “paired” with anything and tastes quite great all by itself. Plus, can you imagine pairing it with pig kidney, blood sausage, or any number of vile meat products one might find in Germany or Austria, for example. A pretzel or even a pork knuckle might work, though. And a good Chianti or Rioja requires no food “pairing” whatsoever. Don’t get me wrong, great beer or wine can make a good dish very enjoyable, it’s just that these fad terms are quite amusing.

"Some of these replies reminded me of a couple of clichéd, overused, and suburban American terms probably not in wide use in Europe: “Foodie” and “pairings” (although I could be wrong)" You are. At least in the Netherlands and Belgium, cooking shows always mention a wine or beer that goes well with the meal. And nothing could be more French than pairing wine with food. This concept was virtually unknown in America until Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, James Beard and others started to promote French cooking in the US in the 1940s and 50s. Notice that we use the term "somelier", not "wine waiter" or "wine steward."

In the US, the popular drink at meals and between meals are huge servings of soft drinks which certainly have had a significant negative health effect on the population, contributing to the obesity and diabetes epidemics. I agree that some people cannot and should not drink alcohol but the US drink of choice is not much better and is worse in some ways, especially with portion sizes out of control.

Tom: I was referring to contemporary use of the faddy term in the U.S. today, not the general concept overall. IMO, “wine pairing” seems to be an overused marketing term here. Of course, the actual process of selecting a particular wine for a given dish dates back thousands of years. Cheers!

When referring to a wine-food combination, Dutch speakers use the terms " koppelen" or "paren", which have the same meaning as the English "to pair", so if it is a cliched term, it's cliched in other languages as well. Its not just an American foody term.

I can sort of see what Michael might be referring to. It's not necessarily that food/drink pairings are bogus in general, but that it has become kind of a fad in this country to be an uber-discerning "foodie". I feel like in the last couple of years, when the Food Network and shows like Top Chef blew up, a lot of people have become pseudo-intellectual about food and drink. Just like everyone seems a little too eager to declare that they eat "local/natural/organic only" in a nose-upturned sort of way. Sure, it's a great way to eat, but in a lot of cases, it tends to come with a snobbish attitude that I find pretty silly.

I'm not particularly fond of food or wine snobs myself and most of the time choose convenience over taking the time to put something together in the kitchen. However, when I am in the mood for the sublime, I make no apologies for it. If you haven't had that perfect match, you don't know what you are missing. If you have, you know exactly what I am talking about and snobbery has nothing to do with it. As for beer not being something that can be "paired" with food, I remember having dinner with my cousin at a Korean restaurant in the Atlanta area and ordering a Korean beer. It was a pretty light beer (and I am one who normally goes for things like Dinkel Acker Dunkel), but it was so perfect for the spicy food we were eating. Don't you naysayers think that maybe life would be more pleasant if we ALL took the time to savor and enjoy it (whether food, wine or just life in general) sometimes rather than always plowing through just to get to the other side? What is the rush?

Anna captured the essence of what I was trying to say perfectly. And Nancy, perhaps Thoreau summed it up best when he suggested one can get what is most important out of life by slowing down and living simply. So, you are onto something with your last thought.

I won't attempt to disagree with the food/drink pairing fans. Who am I to tell you what does or doesn't taste good? (of course, that doesn't stop many wine snobs from insisting I would like the taste of what they like the taste of, bit I digress...)

Consider this; flavor is just flavor. Flavor does not have to = alcohol. Think for a moment how much investment and energy is put into creating and marketing new alcoholic drink flavors for us to buy. Now imagine if a similar amount of money and energy were put into creating non-alcoholic drinks?

Do you know why the investment in creating and pushing non-alcoholic drinks pales in comparison to alcohol? Because those who want to drink want to drink alcohol. Whether it is because of the buzz or the cache, I don't know and I don't particularly care. But the presence of alcohol as the primary ingredient is not mearly incidental.

Let's stop fooling ourselves.

For Tom--Santa Claus melon is about the size and shape of a football (as in American football, not soccer, LOL), mostly dark green, but with a deep yellow patch (probably where it was resting on the ground) and kind of wrinkled. The flesh is a creamy white and extremely sweet. I highly recommend it to anyone who likes melon.

Anna - You must have been channelling me when you posted. I couldn't agree more.

"Think for a moment how much investment and energy is put into creating and marketing new alcoholic drink flavors for us to buy. Now imagine if a similar amount of money and energy were put into creating non-alcoholic drinks?" You mean like for Coke, Pepsi, Gatorade, Mountain Dew, etc? Last time I checked, the marketing budgets of Pepsico and Coca Cola were some of the largest in the world, dwarfing even that of Anheuser-Busch.

Well, you might drive off the cliff if you were on a caffeine buzz or a sugar high from drinking too much coke. Also, it's going to stain and corrode your teeth. Good Grief, you don't have to be a snob to like wine with food! When I was in Amsterdam, I had dinner at a Belgian restaurant that offered a different beer with each course. They were wonderful. And, I walked back to my hotel afterward. The real issue, as Jo originally pointed out, that should be of concern is alcohol and driving. The US should raise the penalties on drink driving and take away the keys of people who drink and drive. Pam

Hallelujah Pamela!! The issue isn't drinking and driving - that's a whole different discussion and thread that isn't appropriate to this site. Enjoying a wine/beer/spirit doesn't mean that you're going to hop in a car and kill someone and it drives me crazy that those who are so 'opposed' to alcohol think this is the norm. Maybe not the norm, but the reason to 'not' drink. And I'm not saying that there is a reason 'to' drink aside from the fact that it brings pleasure. Pleasure in the sensory sense - like a fresh summer peach or a cool glass of water on a hot day or a hearty beef stew in winter. I enjoy wine - I love it to be precise. It has a distinctive taste that is like nothing else. However, I can acknowledge that some people think it's gross - just as I think tequila is disgusting. To each their own. To judge someone on what they do or not do (ie - drink alcohol, go to church, eat grasshoppers...) is naive, unjustified, and simple-minded.

I don't like it when people wear socks with sandals - but I don't think that makes them a bad person, I just wouldn't do it. I also think that diet pop/soda is probably the worst thing on earth you can put in your body - but go ahead, it's your body. I'll fill mine with wine.

Many things are bad for you when you ingest it. Not many things are bad for OTHERS when you ingest it. Alcohol has a long history in that respect, and it goes well beyond traffic accidents. It's convenient to focus only on those drinking habits that are benign. But is there no relationship whatsoever between benign drinking and excessive driking? Really?...

Really?....

Coming in late to this discussion...I think one problem America has is the tendency to isolate those who drink from others. In many states, at festivals or parks, open containers of beer or wine are allowed. People walk around with their families, have a few beers, and enjoy themselves. Here in Indiana, the drinkers are relegated to a beer tent, and that's the only thing that goes on. People pay to go to the beer tent, and then they get drunk. Meanwhile, those of us who would just like a beer with our brat are out of luck.

As a former bartender and tavern owner, I found it interesting that some people that partied hard as young adults later aged out of it, while others developed a physical dependency that became alcoholism. Is that genetics, self medication for mental issues, or they just drank too much for too long? Probably all three.