Crowds

Sharon; It is true that, with the universalness of media nowdays, cultural lines are more blurred than ever (I'll never forget walking down a street in Helsinki, Finland and seeing a restaurant hawking "Southern Fried Chicken" - do Finns in the south cook their chicken differently than Finns in the north?!?), and while you will see many Americanisms everywhere, they may have very little to do with tourists. It's just media and pop culture going global. But don't fret. There is still MUCH that is unique about every corner of Europe. You will love it, as long as you approach it with the right attitude. And as far as language goes; if you do tune into the conversations around you (and if you spend any time away from the epicenters of tourist traffic) you will hear the native language spoken quite a lot. In fact, after enough time, it might very well start getting on your nerves a bit. As much as I love to drink in the atmosphere where I am, there is always a certain relief - like a small, but persistant pressure on the skull that finally goes away - when I return to the land where the chatter around me reverts to English.

I'll comment as best I can. Brugge- most of the sites of interest to a tourist are in a relatively confined area, and the museums and churches aren't particularly large. If you're there on a particularly busy day, it may seem a bit crowded, but likely not wall-to-wall people. Amsterdam, Paris, Munich- large cities. The number of tourists at any given point is dwarfed by the residents. If you don't like crowds, they will always feel somewhat "crowded". Bacharach- I've driven by a few times in the early fall. Tourists are noticable, but the town doesn't appear particularly mobbed. Heidelberg- there's always a lot of people in the Altstadt, but the majority are usually students who attend the local university. It never feels particularly "packed", unless there's some kind of festival happening.

I agree with Tom's assessments. More generally: Someone once described Europe as "Disneyland for Grownups". There can be some truth to this. In July and August the world famous "must see" sights can be absolutely mobbed. For some people, that adds to the carnival atmosphere and makes it more fun. You will be rubbing elbows with visitors from all over the world and if you are out-going, it can be a blast. For others, such crowds are a big disappointment. If a traveller is in the second category, good strategies are: Don't go in high season. Sept/Oct is "shoulder season" so that will help. Also: get up and see the sights at dawn (or early at least). I have walked around Paris in the early morning in July and had it almost to myself. Many on this board will also tell you to just stroll a few blocks to the right or left of the tourist epicentre and you'll suddenly find yourself among locals. Finally, there are tons of amazing sights and experiences in Europe that are off the main tourist ant trail where you might find yourself alone or with only a few others. I read a lot of European History and sometimes I decide to track down a battlefield or tomb or town that particularly interests me and –voila!it is usually both interesting and empty. All of the above having been said, there are some places where crowds are simply part of the natural scene. Downtown London comes to mind. Finally, I wouldn't necessarily let crowds put me off, but I think you are smart to want to have realistic expectations before you go.

James Ansbach, Bayern Germany, You are absolutely correct! And don't forget about the Africans, Australians, Middle Easterns, the Caribbean people and all the people from Oceania, and the rest of the world (oh and are we splitting the Americas into North, Central and South) I believe they like to vacation too. Lets not be naive James. Tisk tisk. I think I should reframe my question. Can anyone tell me how the Unites States crowds are? Lets get real and not hang major emphasis on every word I type James and just lighten up! :-P And for the record I do not think I am naive. Yes, I passed some stereotyping of the crowd based on the picture I saw. (Which by the way was on Rick Steves DVD Disc 14 Bonus Disc - Episode: European Travel Skills Lecture.) I know there will be other travelers. The yanks comment was inspired by the picture which looked as if Americans had a majority presences. But! stereotyping is bad and I regress.

Sharon, All the places you mentioned can be crowded at times but you've got some advice on how to avoid the throngs. The only place I felt the crowds was Barcelona. After that, I never noticed. Going in the shoulder season will help but crowds can be a part of the experience so plan for it or plan ways to avoid them.
Either way, have a great trip.

I don't think it's helpful to respond defensively to James, he brings up a good point. I have visited about half those places (Heidelberg, Munich, Salzburg, Paris) in various "seasons" and the crowds really vary. If you're primarily worried about being surrounded by Americans, Heidelberg might give you that impression at times. Between North American exchange students at the University and the US Military bases, and of course just tourists, there are a good number. That said it doesn't feel like a 'movie set" - none of these places do. They're real places where real people live. The conundrum is this: most travelers want to visit places with a lot of history or sights that are appealing to, well, travelers. But then they don't want to be surrounded by fellow travelers! You can avoid tourists by avoiding places tourists would want to see. Then you could see "real" Germany or "real" France or whatever. But the excitement wears off quick because it's just regular people living in regular towns going about their regular lives. Getting gas, going to the grocery store, going to work, etc. So I wouldn't overthink this. Yes, those are all popular visitors destinations and there will be many fellow tourists in all those places, but they're still "real" and lovely and worth visiting.

Sarah Stuttgart, Germany You are right. But I just couldn't help dishing it back to James because name calling isn't nice. Out-right calling someone naive is hurtful and judgmental. Though James did bring up a good point. I really am mostly concerned about encountering a large number of American tourists. Thanks for your input about Heidelberg I had a feeling there may be a number of Americans there based on things my father-in-law has told me. He was born there. I personally want to skip this town, but I am gladly going in support of my hubby. :-)

What do we yanks say "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen?!" James made a valid point. Heaven forbid I believe that MTV's "Jersey Shores" represents all people from New Jersey. OP's have provided insightful information about the intelligence of traveling "off" season and noted crowd size will vary. Will you see Americans? Of course. Should you choose not to travel to those cities because of that probability, heck no! BTW Hollywood movie lots aren't crowded, I'm on my way to one right now.

With that attitude, it will be a difficult trip. We were in that area from Sept 7 to Oct 10 last year. It was crowded but less crowded that some of our other summer travels. The buildings and museums don't change because of American tourists. In a couple of areas we bumped into local festivals that really packed them in. Two town squares were completely filled with amusement rides and booth selling cotton candy. Which hid the view of all of the building surrounding the square. It would have easily passed as any midwestern summer traveling carnival. And then, I think, the third week of Sept is European Culture week. You will need to learn how to roll with the uncertainties. You need to adjust to Europe and not the other way around.

Sharon... as you are traveling to very well known and well traveled places you will more than likely run into lots of other people who want to enjoy these places as well....from all over the world. But, if you want to visit these places and be relatively alone, or just with the locals make sure you get up really early and start exploring. I am a photographer so I am usually out before the sunrise and what I encounter are the trash people, the locals cleaning the windows of their shops, the kids on their way to school, people getting their coffee and very few tourists. There is a reason everyone wants to go to these places. (I love Heidelberg and if you get up early you can enjoy it as I have) Edit; just read this again and want to make sure my comment 'trash people' means the people who pick up the trash...not trashy people :)

Wait, now I'm confused. You want to visit many places that are very popular with American travelers, but you want to avoid other Americans? Judging by this thread and the other one you wrote, in some of the locations you listed (Beilstein, Bacharach), not only will the majority of your fellow tourists be (North) Americans, but most of them will also likely carry the exact same Blue Book as you. Come on, give them some slack... As I wrote, the single largest group of people you will likely run into in Heidelberg are German university students. You won't see any sign of the US military unless you visit some of the areas around the kaserns on the south side of town... most of the stuff of interest to a tourist is several kilometers away in the Altstadt.

Sharon, For the time period you will be there, there will be others, but not predominantly Americans. For some perspective, we were in Salzburg in July, 2010 - so just about the busiest time of year - and I did not feel particularly crowded. We have been many other popular places in June and July and likewise, never felt overwhelmed. In smaller towns, crowds are rarely a problem and if they are, just slide a street or two away and you will likely find peace and wonderful photo ops. In cities, the bustle is caused by residents going about their business much more than tourists. The only time I would really want to avoid many places is in August, when the tourism crowds include more Europeans themselves. In late September you should be fine. As for who the tourists are; To be honest, I've never really paid that much attention to who the other people are waiting in line with me to get into whatever site. Yes, it might be slightly disappointing if every voice you heard was speaking English (loudly!) but trust that that will not be the case. You are going at one of the best possible times of the year. Relax. It will be great.

O.K. I was going to stay out of this one, but I just can't. Sharon, most of my trips to Europe have been "in season", June thru Sept. Yes, there were crowds, at least I suppose there were based on what everybody says about Europe in high season. However, when I think back on my trips, what sticks in my mind - what I remember most - is the sites I saw and the experiences I had and the other people I met. I never, never remember how crowded it was, or how hot, cold, rainy, etc.. Call me a Polyanna, or naive, whatever. I choose to make the best of any travel situation and I choose to remember the good things, not the bad. Hopefully you will do the same and have a wonderful time, even among the crowds of other 'yanks' who are all travelling to Europe for the same things you are.

Sharon, you did say in your second( third?) post that " I really am concerned about large amount of AMERICAN (emphasize mine) tourists" ,, but are Italians , Brits, Canadian, and Spanish are ok? Tourists are tourists. The major sites will have many tourists around them. I doubt you can tell a Canadian from an American( most people can't) so just pretend everyone who speaks english without a British or Australian accent is Canadain,, that should fix it! lol The crowds won't be quite as bad as July and August, and not all sites are equally crowded , but yes, there will be lots of people about . I also wouldn't form too many conclusions from one video either .

Love what Nancy has to say! We did several annual trips to Europe with our kids, therefore they were all at the height of tourist season-July and August. We did all the big "tourist" cities and sights-Rome and the Vatican, London and Westminster abbey, paris and the louvre. There were a few setbacks-never made it to the top of the Eiffel tower, had to go back to Westminster 3 times to get the timing of hours/crowds right. But we did smart things too like booked some museums ahead of time, getting the Paris pass, getting up EARLY for tower of london, etc. And we had a wonderful time! Places that have a lot of worthwhile things to see and do will naturally be crowded but it doesn't make them any less special. If it will really ruin it for you to be with lots of Americans, one suggestion I have is to deliberately pick a city that Rick doesn't cover. You listing of places to see sound like they've come directly from his book. In Germany we stayed in both Regensburg and Turbingen and loved the feel of these towns. We stayed in Wolfgangsee instead of right in Salzburg and were the only Americans at a hotel filled with German families. It has been said before that Rick's back doors are not off the beaten path anymore. I love using his books to help me plan and I love his walking tours for the big cities. Looking for grand architecture and history takes you to popular places with lots of other people (I like the Disneyland for adults analogy!). I don't find that to be a real problem but I do like to mix up the "biggies" with some smaller, less Important places-ithas worked well for us.

Everyone one relax. I am not a miserable person! lol Randy said it best though "Yes, it might be slightly disappointing if every voice you heard was speaking English (loudly!)" I am the type of person when I am home in America, out in a restaurant or something, I ENJOY listening to peoples conversations. Most of the time I will be talking to my husband while simaltaneiously listening to the conversations around me - happily. Maybe I have ADHD, who knows? (Please no comment on this - it is a rhetorical question) (I feel like I have to start putting disclaimers in my post - people seem to read very deeply in my words.) That being said, I will have a hard time tuning out the voices of an American because it will be very familiar and recognizable. I am going there because I dream of sitting in a Paris cafe and listening to all the french people talk. Does this exist? Or are these cities that touristy now? IDK b/c I have never been. If I am standing in line and all I hear is American voices (because they stand out to me) I feel I may not be able to concentrate on the other cultures which I traveled so far to see. While I am not be hysterical and saying I don't want to see a single American. Some are fine, I just really want to know if it will be so INUNDATED with Americans to the point where CAN'T find a cafe in Paris without one. I know I am picking major tourist attractions and things out of Rick's books but I was hoping I was far enough in the shoulder season that I would be tripping over American tourists and was minimizing that crowd. Maybe even in the summer that is not the case. I don't know, that is why I am asking you to better prepare myself. I know I will enjoy my time more if I have realistic expectations - no matter what the crowds really are. Avoiding disappointment is my ultimate goal.

Claudia
Land of La To clarify in order to un-ruffle your feathers. (In a nice way - so don't over analyze) The Hollywood comment meant to convey the question of whether or not it will look like Europe to me but seem like home. Home is such a melting pot as is - so maybe. If I made a movie set of Salzburg in New Jersey and was filming. I probably hire local actors for the street extras. So when I walk down my movie set it looks like Salzburg set wise but there is a lot more of home in the scene once the extra arrive. Get it? I know not every movie set is an active day shot of a tourist town while filming. There are all kinds of movie sets with varying amounts of extras from 0-100's or more. Though with CGI these days I don't know the reality of that anymore. BTW, I like the de-emphasis of the 'a' in "La" That has been trending. Cute.

I would skip Brugges. Go to Ghent. I just wasn't impressed by Brugge. My travel goal is to be immersed in a place totally different than NJ/NYC. Our upcoming trip is to Germany/Austria in a few weeks and we are visiting Wurzburg Nurnberg and Bamberg (as well as Salzburg and Munich). As someone else said if you want places where there will be less Americans choose places less traveled to by Americans. One more thing, we were in Belgium last October and it was surprisingly warm!

The 2nd half of September is already shoulder season. So the peak summer crowds are definitively gone for the season. Amsterdam, Paris and München are big metropolitan areas with plenty of activities and attractions. Should you opt to take yourself sometimes away from the "must see" things and explore on yourself, there is always room to get away from any crowd. Brugge, Bacharach and Hallstatt are small towns that have mostly concentrated tourists in certain areas. But they will not be über-packed. A hint: schedule big cities around weekends and weekdays around small places. Many local/regional tourists (believe me, people in Europe travel a lot as well) will mostly get on the road on weekends, so smaller places notice more the crowd difference than a big city. As for "not seeing anything American", I'm very disappointed to inform you that thanks to the enormous success of American cultural and economic icons (which is a positive thing), they spread around the World. If a Starbucks in a canal house in Amsterdam offends you, you will be frustrated. It is not like you will find Heidelberg like Annapolis, but as other helpliners said, lines are fortunately blurred nowadays

Sharon... I know exactly what you are talking about with the conversation going on around you.... it is one reason I love going to Europe and especially the smaller towns...there can be lots of people around talking and because I can't understand any of it I really feel as though I am IN a movie... not Hollywood, but some exotic European film. I can still be alone with my thoughts (shallow as they may be) and not have my mind distracted by others. I have a hard time tuning out other if I can understand them, but it is definitely one of the things I love about Europe. There are certainly enough people who speak English in the large cities, but plenty who don't. So if I find myself sitting too close to the English speaking folks...I will just move away. The sound of foreign languages that I do not understand is not annoying to me, unlike chatter that I do not care to listen to (and no, I cannot tune it out)

bronwen
maplewood, new jersey Yes! Exactly. Great suggestion. I was toying with staying in Ghent instead and day visiting Bruges. How long do you think it will take me to walk around Bruges? Do you think a 1/2 day is enough or a whole day? I bought Ricks books to get the back door experience on Europe. But as someone else has mentioned, with the popularity of Rick, these places are becoming more crowded. I guess I have to find my own back doors. The advice also from other travelers about hitting busy area mega early is a great tip. Thanks.

Tom - avoiding the drama, just as a general point: I go to Heidelberg frequently as it's close by and fun, and every time I've gone I've ended up feeling "Wow, this place sure has a lot of Americans in it!" For me this isn't a negative at all, I usually end up having nice conversations. But it is a factor. I've been at least 7-8 times and always had multiple instances of chatting with fellow Americans. No, the city doesn't "feel" American but Americans are sure in it! Which is generally awesome, scored a great table at a popular brewery because the guy about the vacate the table was American and saw me standing around hapless with my in-laws and recognized us as Americans. Took a picture of a guy and his favorite waitress at his favorite restaurant ("Hemmingway's" fantastic breakfast!!!) on the day he was leaving Europe after 10 years. Meeting fellow Americans abroad is not inherently a negative. It can be an opportunity for camaraderie and recommendations and fun. Sure there are negatives - was at the Schloss with my dyed-in-the-wool Democrat mom and grandmother when an American couple started talking loudly to any German who would listen about how "Obama wants to take away our guns and put us all in camps." We disagreed loudly and well, it was a bit awkward but same thing likely to happen to you standing in line at Walmart except I felt I had to apologize to the surrounding Germans for this lady's misrepresentation of their healthcare system. Point being: Heidelberg is full of Americans, it's also a great place to visit and beautiful, and it can be a lot of fun interacting with your countrymen while traveling!

I read "something other than something American." I never saw a reference to the nationality.
I don't think your question is naive at all, but a good one. Yes, most of the places in the guidebooks are maintained, painted, sandblasted, planted, etc. to look clean and fresh to attract the tourist money, Disney style. The famous buildings everyone wants to see have been cleaned and landscaped over the past thirty or so years, while others close by might still be falling apart. Compare Notre Dame in Paris with St. Nicholas right up the street. It's such a dump that a net is stretched across the nave so the birds which live inside the building won't fly onto you. So as the second response said, just walk away from the crowded sites/sights and visit a few blocks away, either before or after you've visited the blockbuster site.

I didn't read thru all the replies, but in 2010 (as well as 2008, and as we will be this year) we visited fr mid-Sept-1st week of Oct. I don't have experience visiting Europe at other times of the year, but I didn't find Paris/Salzburg that crazy crowded...Munich (where we only had 1 day) maybe was more crowded, but we were there I think on day 2 of Oktoberfest (tho it was the middle of the week) and we really stuck to the park and not much else...I know I felt that Venice was very crowded, but a merchant on the Rialto told us it was nothing compared to July and Aug. So that being said, it is still my fav time of year to visit, and I think unless you go in the dead of winter, there will be people...lots of people, (but having visited NY last Sept and experiencing Times Square, I don't think it was any worse people wise)... I mean, in Paris, the hot spots will be full of people - Louvre, Eiffel, Sacre Coeur, Munich will be full of revellers, just take a deep breath and go with the flow!

I would give Brugges 4 hours. My sister and I spent two nights in Ghent and it was a great time. Lots of people strolling around, students hanging by the canals, a castle in the middle of town and some neat museums.

Sharon, I've seen those pics of Salzburg; I've lived those pics LOL! There are something like 2 main drags through old Salzburg that can get mobbed, but you don't get swept down the street in a wave of tourists - you CAN step out of the mob. Salzburg is sooo much more than those 2 streets! I'd absolutely suggest going there! Same thing for Bruges - it can be very difficult to get down a couple of streets because people stop for pictures (you will be, too). BUT, the good news is that the museums, churches, etc., aren't crowded. Many people day-trip into Bruges (and other cities) and walk the main drag for a few photo ops and a bit of lace-shopping. Bunches of bus tourists! BUT, go anyway; make a point of walking 2 blocks in any direction and you'll be ALL ALONE. I mean stand-in-the-middle-of-the-street alone. Last fall, I was in Salzburg the very same time you'll be there - it'll be fine. GO! As for hearing English and seeing Americans - in certain places (standing in line for tickets at the Eiffel Tower) you'll be surrounded by tourists, and many of them will be Americans. BUT, once you start wandering the streets, eating at the restaurants, visiting the museums, you'll hear all kinds of languages. It's not the backlot at the studio, but I understand your concerns! Many people on the Helpline lament all of those blasted Americans speaking English and messing up our 'foreign vacation' LOL! Hey, at least those Americans are IN EUROPE with YOU!!!

The biggest crowds are in high season. You will be in shoulder season so it won't be as bad. That said "not as bad" can still be pretty busy at major sights (like Neuschwanstein). For the big sights it's best to arrive first thing or shortly before closing to avoid the throngs. I think mid-September to early-October is the ideal time for your destinations. I'm not sure if the places you listed are in the order you plan to visit. I'd probably start north and work south, both for weather and avoiding crowds (the crowds often go south, like migrating birds, as it gets later in the year).