Am I crazy?

Hi Dawn No, I don't think you're crazy. Ambitious? Yes. If you only want to skim the surface, maybe. Its wonderful that your dream is coming together. A well planned trip can be a real gem for a family. My congratulations to you. I'm sure that you are taking into account all 4 travellers' wishes and desires. If I can, I'll give you a leg up. You are travelling at a good time of the year, and I see that you may be travelling from the Lone Star State. When I lived in North Texas we spent most of our time moving from air conditioned car to air conditioned office to air conditioned mall to air conditioned house. Let me tell you, there is not much air conditioning walking around in Rome, Venice, especially Florence or Munich. It can get hot, which will tire you. Maybe not the kids, but I bet it will you. I have a few years on you, and I like to travel, and I think you're spreading yourself a little thin on this one. 21 days sounds like tons of time but I would like to show you how it evaporates. To be continued....

to continue..... 21 days sounds like tons of time but I would like to show you how it evaporates. The places you mention can be done in 21 days, if you start on this side of the pond de-jetlagged and rested up, and have a personal jet-pack to travel around. How will you travel? Car? Train? Fly between cities? London -Bacharach is lots of hours, car or train. I know, I've done it. Will you stay part way? I can get from London at 0700 to Bern by 1530 straight through by car, with the connections on the train it will take most of a day. Munich -Venice is another long day, as are Rome -Gimmelwald and Gimmelwald -Paris. So if I were taking your trip it would be something like: London one day to de-jetlag, check in, get bearings London 3 days to enjoy 1 day travel to Rhine Valley, 1 day to enjoy.
1 night RODT, including travel in and out. 2 nights Munich; 1 day to Venice and 3 more; 3 in Florence, 4 in Rome, 1 day to Berner Oberland, 2 to enjoy; 1 day to Paris, 3 to enjoy, leave next day. Let's count. That's 28 days. Oops I'm over....

Since you have waited 50 years for your first trip, you will want to do it right. Think quality rather than quality. If you try to "see it all" you may end up seeing very little. Think of it this way: you have listed 9 destinations for 21 days. Count travel time to and from Europe and travel time between destinations, and you have 2 days or less per stop. And you'll be spending a lot of time on trains. At your age (both you and your kids) you have plenty of years to return and see what you did not see on this trip. I suggest you slow down and limit yourself to 3 countries-either London, France and Germany (fly into London and out of Munich), OR London, Switzerland, and Italy (fly into London, spend 3 nights, fly to Zürich, and train from there through Switzerland and into Italy, flying home from Rome. Either one will be a wonderful trip for you and your family. Yes, it will be hot in Italy, but we just did a June-July trip to Italy with our two girls (18 and 22) this past summer and it was fine. There were some warm days but not insufferably so. And Gimmelwald will be lovely that time of year.

Go independent. Our first Euro trip (of 3 to date) was inspired by RS shows and reads. We decided to travel on our own and we loved it. It was much cheaper than a tour.
We would agree that you should scale back and spend more time in fewer places. Choose those places you most want to experience. Either that or go for a longer time. Make as few prior bookings as possible. We have never been closed out of a room- you won't be either.

Have you thought about how you're going to travel from place to place, and how much time you're going to have to allot just for travel? With 9 destinations in 21 days, you're going to be packing up and moving on almost every 2 days. I think that's going to make your trip pretty hectic.

I understand that hunger to get it all! But I think what you're going to find each time you get to one of these cities, there's going to be something there you didn't plan on seeing, and then something else and something else and so on. And you may find that's a lot of travel time from place to place you could use otherwise. I think I would narrow my focus somewhat. You're going to have adventures no matter where you go, you can be sure of that. Nah, you're not crazy, just crazy excited right now, that's all. Just wait till you get there....its really special when you go for the first time. Pick your most favorite destination to be first....you'll see.

For a first timer, cut your list in half and go slower. Don't underestimate the considerable costs in time, money and stamina that are involved by changing location almost every other day. Some of those destinations lie a considerable distance from each other. I'm sure you didn't wait 50 years for a detailed exploration of the interior of trains and rail stations...

You should count on spending 3 days at each large city at a minimum, and that's still not enough time unless you rush, rush, rush. You'll need a vacation from your vacation at this rate. The tour isn't a bad idea, as tours can cover a lot more ground than an individual traveler, and also can teach you how to handle European travel. Taking a tour on my first trip gave me the confidence to plan my future trips on my own. That said, you certainly CAN organize your own independent travel. I would start by boiling your itinerary down to about 5-6 destinations. Maybe have everyone pick their top must-see destination and see if that can be worked into a logical route.

Dawn, while my preference is independent travel, I think the RS office made a great suggestion given where you want to visit. I've taken that approach on first trips to potentially challenging destinations(eg, the Middle East) even though I, like you, love the planning. Otherwise you'll spend much of your "vacation" figuring out inter- and intra-city transit systems, finding your hotels, locating sites you want to visit, and dealing with surprises in several foreign languages. London and Paris are easy cities to explore on your own, and with the Chunnel, easy to travel between. Maybe combine some of the others places on a tour and do London and Paris on your own? That way, the tour can handle the logistics for most of your travel within Europe.

One other thought, if you decide to take the RS approach (tour plus some independent time). I'd suggest doing the independent part last, so you can take advantage of learning logistics while traveling with a group. Also, my guess is that the guide could be helpful in getting you on your way to the independent part of your trip.

Can an inexperienced traveler plan and do a rather long independent trip? Sure! Does your proposed itenerary make sense not really. You need to narrow things down and prioritze. I'd suggest England and one other country. England and France pair well. As do England and Germany. If you are locked into June/July 2021, I'd consider NOT doing London (step back, at least a dozen people just fainted- Toni said NOT LONDON?). The Olympics will be there and it will be super crowded and even more expensive than usual. I'd also suggest not doing Italy- too hot! You could start in the UK- maybe Scotland or Wales. Plan to spend at least 1-2 weeks there. You could base in one or two locations and do day trips. London is normally perfect for this, but I don't think you'd like the Olympic (and possible Royal wedding) fuss. While I personally didn't enjoy Paris, it too makes a great base and you could begin there. Again, 1 week at least. Plan on getting an apartment and save money on some meals. Do several day trips. Then train or cheap flight to Germany or Austria. Again- plan on one or two bases and do day trips. After you have talked with your family, come back with your interests clarified. Starting this early gives you lots of time to look at possibilites and tweak things before you lock it in. Feel free to private message me if I can be of assistance. We have been to Europe more than 40 times in over 20 years of travel (hubby and I are both in our 50s now- son 23 and daughter 31). I'd be more than happy to e-discuss your concerns, ideas, etc.

Don't try to see too much on this "first-ever trip to Europe". You'll be too busy packing and travelling to enjoy yourselves. As stated above, narrow your trip down to 2 or 3 nights at each place and 1 or 2 countries. This will make for a much more enjoyable trip. So "...you've waited 50 yrs..", so did we! You have decades of travel ahead of you, after the bug bites and it will! Don't spoil the first trip by turning it into a blur. Have fun and enjoy each stop along the way.

In 1999 we did our first European trip and did so independently. We had 3 weeks. We landed in Paris and immediately took the train to Lyon. Then to Arles, then Vence. Then, off to Italy where we went to Lake Como, Lucca, Florence, Venice, Sienna, and finished in Rome. We spent 2-3 nights in each city generally, sometimes just one night. We were EXHAUSTED at the end of it. Glad that we saw so much, proud that we did so independently but have never tried to bite off that much again. We have been back 4 times since, spend a minimum of 4 nights per town, and never try more than 3 "stops" per trip. That way, we can see a city really well, relax some and save the rest for the next trip. One time, we went to Paris with railpasses to see a whole bunch of cities in France. We ended up hardly using the railpass and spent the days just wandering the neighborhoods of Paris and had a great time. We're going back to Paris in 5/11 for 12 days with another couple and our goal is to really enjoy Paris and perhaps a few side day trips. Don't be deluded by how easy Rick makes it look in his videos. When you add in train time, you are on the move a lot. Don't go for the tourist death march: slow down, see fewer places but see more of the places you're in. And you can do it independently with the help of Rick, other good guide books, the Graffiti Wall/Traveler's Helpline and the web. Bon voyage!

Hello Dawn. I recommend : plan your independant trip in Europe. Eliminate London and Gimmelwald from this trip. You can see Alps mountains in southern Germany and Austria. I suggest : Fly to Paris, and you could ride in a high speed train from Paris to Koblenz in Germany, and a quick train ride from Koblenz to Bacharach. From there, travel in trains south to Munich and the cities in Italy. Fly from a Rome airport to the United States of America.

There are a couple reasons tours can cover more ground than independent travelers. 1) No time wasted learning how to get from point A to B on city bus/train/or private car. No time wasted finding the transportation hubs or buying tickets. 2) They have professional drivers who know the best way to get from point A to point B. 3) They are not wasting valuable time looking for hotels, B&Bs, restaurants, road signs, monuments, historical sights, or any other sights. 4) They have "weeded out" the least desirable attractions and take you to the most interesting, fun and educational attractions. If I had three weeks of vacation, I would spend it in no more than two countries. How can any one experience an entire country in 3 to 5 days?

You've made an early start on your planning which is great. I suggest you leave London for another trip - you will return. I urge you to travel independently, especially with the kids who are not likely to find people of their age on a tour. Consider: fly to Paris, train via Gimmelwald to Venice, then Florence, then Rome and fly home from there. Three days for Venice, Florence, Rome and Paris and two for Gimmelwald. Allowing for travel time you might be able to include Munich. We're considerably older than you. We couldn't start traveling abroad until our 60s. For most of us, there will be time.

Dawn, As the others have mentioned, that's a somewhat ambitious Itinerary for a 21-day time frame. I have to agree with the advice given from the office in Edmonds in that it's probably "too much". Given the long lead time, is there any way you could arrange more holiday time? The "big three" (London-Paris-Rome) require AT LEAST three days each, as there's so much history and so much to see and do. As this is your "first-ever" trip to Europe, I assume you've read the Itinerary planning chapter in Europe Through The Back Door? I've been to all of the places you listed, and they're all great places to visit. However, from a realistic point-of-view, I believe it will be necessary to compromise and drop a few of the destinations unless you can add more time to the trip. It's extremely important to allow adequate travel time between locations, which includes time spent finding the Hotel, checking-in and getting settled. Although London will be busy due to the Olympics, I believe it would make a good first stop on your trip. As you won't be travelling until 2012, you have LOTS of time to arrange Hotel reservations. You might be able to visit one or two of the places on your list as day trips from larger cities (ie: visit Rothenburg while you're in Munich). Although this is a few years old, you might find it useful to have a look at This short video. Good luck with your planning!

My thoughts from someone who has done both a tour and independent travel. I have been to Europe 4 times. My first time was a 21 day organised tour. I was there in July 1995, which just happened to be one of the hottest summers for many, many years. Personally, I would never travel to Europe at this time of the year again. I'm glad I took a tour for my first time. It gave me a good overview of many countries and cities. Also when you are part of a tour group, you save hours having to wait in line to see major tourist attractions. My last 3 trips have been as an independent traveller, using the knowledge I gained from my first tour.
I feel your schedule is way too ambitious to really make the most of this wonderful experience.

Here are some follow-up thoughts to my post above, based on suggestions made by others. The London Olympics do't start until July 27, and you should be there well before that if you stick to your idea of a June-July trip. You say you love trip planning, so there is no reason you cannot go ahead with an independent trip. many of us here do that, and even my first attempt was a great success. This website and Ric 's books are a good place to start, and there are many other resources available on the Internet. For a family of four, I believe the independent trip is by far the better choice. Your kids will have more choice in how to spend their time, as will you. You can plan it to suit your own pace and sightseeing desires. And then there is the cost. Using one of Rick's tours as a guide, you 'll pay 4 x $4995 or just about $16,000 for a 14 day, 13 night trip. That includes hotels, breakfasts, transportation, sightseeing, museum entrances, and half your dinners. You still have to add $$$ for the other 6 dinners and all lunches, plus other incidentals. For comparison, our 14 day, 13 night trip this summer to Italy and Switzerland for a family of four averaged out below 400 euro a day for everything (excluding airfare, which is not included in the tour price either.). The euro was at $1.30 or less during the trip. So the total was under $7,000. That is a big difference.

I don't think it's as important to "see as much as you possibly can" as it is to "experience as much as you can". I think you'll experience so much more, if you do a lot less moving around. I agree that you shouldn't do less than three nights in any big city. Even that is pushing it, especially if there are day tripping possibilities from the city. I'm going to Italy for 23 days next summer. Rome (5 nights), Postitano (week), CT (3 nights), Venice (8 nights). We really like to settle into a place and explore and experience it. We've rented apartments; I think staying in apartments facilitates the cultural experience. Plus, for a family, it's MUCH cheaper.

We did our first trip to Europe in 2009. It was the ETBD 21 day trip to Western Europe. As well, we spent about a week before on our own and a few days post trip. The ETBD part was well worth it. I don't think I would have seen and done so many things if I had planned it myself. We learned so much from Reid Coen our group's leader. The group of people on the trip only made it better. It is fast paced and you only get to see the "highlights". However, it gives you a taste of where you might spend some more time if you go again. We are going back to Italy in 2011. BTW, we were both in our 60's when we made the trip.

I'm going to suggest slowing down even further. Finding a room for 4 people in Europe isn't as easy as finding the same in the US. Most hotels/B&B's have mostly doubles with just a few rooms, if any, that will sleep 4. You can get an apartment for less than the cost of a hotel, plus you'll have more room, a kitchen, and a washer/dryer. Some places allow you to rent for less than a week, some don't. And you do have to check the fine print some charge extra for electricity, towels, and cleaning. If you do decide to go with apartments, pick a few places where you can do day trips. If you stay somewhere central in Bavaria, you can do day trips to Munich and Rothenburg and see the castles. I'd suggest checking at your library for a copy of "Take Your Kids to Europe" by Cynthia Harriman. It's got a lot of practical info for planning a trip and gives lots of websites for finding apartments. If they don't have it at your library, go ahead and buy a copy, you'll save at least the cost of the book with her resources in it.

Thank you all so much!! Your feedback is very helpful. I will scale back the scope for this trip so that I don't sacrifice quality for quantity. I'll do some more research (really, I don't mind reading a few more travel guides/websites!) and post my Trip Concept 2.0 for your thoughts. Thanks again!

Excellent. Let me just expand on Maureen's post above. Apartments are definitely a good way to go for a family of four. But it is easy to find ones that do not require a wee stay; often a 3night minimum applies. You would want to stay that long in any big city anyway. Check out the offerings at VacationInParis.com for examples of what you can find for a family. They have apartments all over Paris that rent per night. They are very easy to deal with and have no add-on charges for electricy, cleaning, etc.

Hi Dawn, just a few more thoughts. We took our sons, 15 and 13, to Europe for three weeks this past summer. Going fewer places for more time means that you get a chance to become familiar with your "neighborhood" in each place, the nearest metro stop, bakery, etc. so that after a couple of days you'll feel comfortable letting your kids do some things on your own. After four days in Paris we let our 15 year old ride the metro a couple of stops on his own because he'd been there long enough to know how to do it. That really fosters a sense of independence and travel confidence. Also as you're planning keep in mind your family's sleep schedule. A trip with teens is not a hit the ground running first thing in the morning kind of trip, and in some places, such as Paris, sunset will be very late that time of year and you'll all be up late. Definitely alternate big city with out in the country time. And if you love to plan, that do go on your own! Planning our trip was one of the favorite parts of our experience for me.

I much prefer to travel independently. The one suggestion I'd make is to rein in your trip geographically. 21 days isn't a lot to include London, Paris and Florence in the same trip. You will have a better time picking one region. Do more in a smaller area and save a lot of time/hassle traveling around.

For a Contrary Opinion: You could structure the trip to give you a taste of the various countries without killing yourselves with travel. Some variation on: London 4 days (including day trips if you choose) Chunnel to Paris 4 days 3 days travelling a small German area- say a trip down the Rhine, or Black Forest 3 days Switzerland, Interlaken or Lucerne, Alp village of your choice, 4 days Rome or Italian City of choice
That allows you some wasted time travelling between locations, plus a more settled stay in some worthwhile Cities. you start in London - an easier transition to Europe without the language concerns There is a lot you wont see, and maybe you will find an area you want to return to for a longer stay.

Name one place you've wanted to see your whole life. The first time I went over the pond I had a month and didn't make it out of England. Well, and Ireland, but only for a flying visit. Your list looks very tempting and I can understand wanting to see everything on it, but it only gives you 2.33333 days in each place counting travel times and getting lost. Mind you, I do realize the journey is part of the experiance. What would happen if each of you chose one place they'd really like to see and worked from there. Do you plan to drive or use public transportation? It's natural to want to see it all after waiting so long. Sometimes for me, even just sitting, the newness or difference of a place can be exhausting. I always know where I'm going to spend my first night and my last and leave everything in between up to the Gods. In your case I'd advise you to have it all plotted out. Keep us informed as you plot your course.

I realise that to Americans who have not visited before, Europe must seem small. Certainly looking at an Atlas of the world it is tiny compaired to America. This leads to the inevitable misconception that it is easily crossed. We are Brits living in Germany near the Belgian border and only 4 and half hours drive from Calais where we can catch a ferry 'home' to England. The whole trip however to Oxford takes around 11 hours, without hold ups. Even flying takes 8 hours door to door. It would be a shame if you spent most of your visit 'on the road' and when you get home having a problem remembering where you went, or is that just me? Tell yourself that you will be back.

In September, my husband and I (both 50+)did a 16 day trip which I planned using guidebooks & this helpline. We had a wonderful time, but definitely could have used more time in each city! We spent 4 nights in London, chunnel to Paris where we picked up a rental car and drove to Normandy & Brittany (2 nights), 6 nights in Paris in a "Vacation in Paris" apartment, 2 nights in Bruges & 1 in Brussels. We felt rushed. I didn't anticipate how lost we would get while traveling by car, or that strikes would close down transportation and museums. We were affected in some way by strikes in London, Paris & Brussels! We loved everything we did and everyplace we stayed, but wished we would have had more time in each location. Really research each destination, then edit. Have fun!

I don't know if your family will enjoy a tour or not. I highly doubt an 18 and 15 year old want to get out of bed at 6:30 a.m. in order to be on the tour bus by 8:00 a.m. Rick Steves tours are wonderful, but I don't think they appeal to most teenagers. From my experience going on four Rick Steves tours---make sure you have three nights at each location, packing and unpacking gets tedious after a few days. Florence and Venice is all about the art and architecture and VERY touristy..if your teenagers don't care about history/art..they will be bored. Gimmewald...breathtaking and magical! I am planning a trip to Europe with my 15 year old next March without a tour, just the Rick Steves guidebooks!

If you like trip planning, then I say definitely go your own way. I don't knock tours, but have always preferred to do Europe independently. It's time consuming to research and plan, but very rewarding in the implementation. I'll be the renegade here and say that your itinerary is very doable in the time you have, assuming you're of the sort that can contentedly move along knowing you haven't seen all there is to see in a place, but got the highlights. You don't need three days each in Bacharach, Rothenburg, Munich, and Gimmelwald, nor in Venice and Florence for that matter, to hit the high spots. London, Rome and Paris deserve that much time, but if you don't have it, so what? As for getting from place to place, that's part of the adventure. My advice is go where you want to go. It doesn't matter if you see or do everything that others think you should see and do. It's your trip to design as you please.

I have two responses: First, if you love planning a trip, plan away. When I first traveled to Europe, there was no real Internet and hotel reservations had to be done by long distance phone calls at 3 am. The tradeoff between a tour an independent traveling is security and time. A tour handles hotel reservations for you. If you'd be OK showing up in a strange town with no reservation or, perhaps, a "lost" reservation, you'll have more flexibility and can probably save a lot of money. We once pulled over to a roadside hotel in Italy for one night and ended up staying six. The other, completely different, thought is that you are picking several places for your first trip to Europe that are famous for being in Rick Steves' books and TV shows more so than for their cultural significance. That's OK, but know that all the time and effort you go to for a trip to Rothenburg just gets you trapped in a small town with a bunch of blue-book toting American public television watchers and nothing to do. Rick Steves would be the first to agree that there are gobs of less-touristed, equally charming destinations that might fit better into your itinerary. And they can be found by asking more questions here.

My husband, girls (13, 15), and I spent 3.5 weeks in Europe, our first visit: 4 nights London, 5 nights Normandy, 5 nights Paris, 2 nights Rome, 1 night Florence, 6 nights Monteveglio (near Bologna). We had a wonderful time though the teenagers quickly grew bored of churches and museums. We traveled via tube and bus in London, took the train through the Chunnel to Paris, rented a car and drove around Normandy, used the metro in Paris, flew to Rome, took the train to Florence and rented a car in Bologna (with day trips to Venice/Ravenna, Modena, and more). If you and the kids are active and like to walk and see things rather than sit around in a hotel, then you can enjoy a lot in three weeks. I would have spent less time shopping (girls would disagree) and museum-hopping and more time sitting on benches soaking in the culture. Do it your way and have fun.

Unless Italy is a must then I say fly into Paris and spend some time exploring France. Take the train to Belgium and then up to Amsterdam. Or scrap all that and go to Prague and visit Krakow Poland. We did this trip a few summers ago and we loved Krakow. Portugal is a faulous country but I would avoid it in the summer as I think it would be way too hot. My son - who is younger (11) would rank France as his number one country (he loves Paris). Followed by Krakow and Evora Portugal as his next favorite cities.

You received some excellent advice. I especially like Lola's math. Let's see 4 X $4995 = $16,000. Now who's going to pay the other $3,980 as well as the airfare for 4 that equals at least $4,000, if you are lucky! Go with your gut and see all that you can. I mean you've been waiting 50 years starting the day you were born! Reading Rick's books such as the 1960 copy of ETBD that Rick wrote when he was ? Oops, not even born yet. You better stick with London unless you all have been practicing your French, German and Italian! Your 15 year old son and 18 year old daughter are going to love Gimmelwald, as there is so much for teenagers to do there! I'm just saying! You have heard of culture shock? Correct? Do you concur? I'm just kidding! Just yankin your chain! Go For It!

I say go ahead and plan your own trip. You've gotten some great advice above. I especially agree with points made by Tex and Doug - not every town/city is worth spending three days in, and don't automatically pick Rick Steves' recommended cities. Do your own research. I also think it's okay to spend less time in each place and see more cities, especially with teenagers, to avoid the "okay, we've seen it all, now what?" feeling if what you want to do is see all the places you've dreamed about. I planned an independent four-week trip last summer, basically recreating for my 18 year old daughter and myself a group tour I took at her age years ago. We went to Italy, Austria, Germany and Paris in two weeks, then two more weeks in England. Some parts were exhausting, yes, but it was a trip of a lifetime. In cities like Rome we joined group day- or partial-day tours which are easy to find on the internet and give you a chance to let someone else be in charge in the big overwhelming cities, especially if you're nervous about the language situation. Otherwise I bought plane, train and bus tickets and reserved car rentals on line from home and of course had hotel reservations in advance. I loved the planning almost as much as the trip itself!