45 carefree days exploring Europe with 4 Kids, love to hear your ideas!

You should really consider flying into one city and flying out of another. You are all over the map, and this is going to cost you money. Pull out a map of Europe and see if you can find a more logical way, moving in one direction. Fly into London, and when you are done there, train to Paris, from there move on to Amsterdam. Train into Germany from Amsterdam and then move on to Italy. Spain is your outlier if you want to spend lots of time in Germany. You might consider dropping it. Fly home from Italy.

Stacey, I don't have time this afternoon to go through this in detail, but my initial impression is that there's still too many places in the mix and too much travel, which will require both time and money. I'd suggest either skipping the one night stops or adding another day to each. It will take about half a day each to travel from Venice to Verona and Verona to Cinque Terre. You'll only have one afternoon in each place to tour and then you'll be on the train again in the morning. I'm not sure it will be worth the effort. You might consider deleting "That Place" to allow more time for others. I agree with the previous comments that using open-jaw flights would be the best idea. Good luck with your planning!

Stacey - if I am not mistaken, haven't you already purchased the USA/Germany portion of your ticket and it is non-refundable. That would make an open-jaw ticket from the US to/and from Germany unavailable. Or am I wrong about the ticket already being set in stone? You could still to open-jaw tickets on your other flights within Europe.

Still too many places and moving around. So you will train to Venice from Rome and stay two nights. That is one day there. Train to Verona and out again the next day to CT. Leave CT the next day, and on to Milan. One full day in Milan. When are you going to see anything in Verona or the CT? Fly to Madrid to only spend one full day there before moving on again. You really need to look at the actual travel times between these places, and what times the trains leave each place. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. Every time you change locations you are losing at least half a day just to the details of moving - packing, unpacking, finding your way to your hotel and back to the train station, waiting for the train, airport security check-in times. You will much happier if you cut out places so you can see something in the places you do visit.

Warning: Spain in summer is very hot. Think of the Central Valley but with little air conditioning.

Hi, Where do you plan on taking the ferry to Amsterdam or close to it? The only one I know going to that area departs from Newcastle. Or, are you going from London to Lille on the Euro Star, then by train to Amsterdam?

I would cut out Spain all together and do a "Figure 8" loop in and out of Germany, since you are stuck with those non refundable tickets. I would also skip the flight to Rome and train down to Verona, then Venice, then Rome. From there head North through CT (but stay 2 nights here for a full day of hiking), then Milan and then head further North into France, Paris, then London. Then you complete the top loop by going to Amsterdam and back to Germany. You could easily fill in the time you cut out of Spain with that route and it makes more logistical sense. You would be passing through Austria, Switzerland, French Riviera, Tuscany, Provence, Bavaria, and others that could easily fill up your 45 days. Above all, I would avoid airports and security screening with the kids. Train stations with kids is much easier.

I can only comment on your 45 days. They probably won't be carefree. We have taken three 45 day journeys in Europe. No kids, they are grown and the pets have died. 45 day trips are tiring, very tiring and we always come back with some sort to cold or flu. You have my best wishes and good luck to you.

A 45 day trip is a very long, fabulous opportunity to see Europe. Slow down and enjoy it more. We have found that a minimum of 3 nights is perfect, more for bigger cities, maybe 2 nights if you are in a small town without much going on. It adds stress, money and you may not even remember what you saw if you move too fast. Just one opinion.

My first recommendation is that you aren't really accounting for the length of time it takes to actually do all of that train travel from one place to another, so when you say train to X, stay one night, you really aren't allowing any time to see and enjoy X. If it were me, I would slow down, spend at least 2 nights (probably 3) or more in each location, and also reduce the complexity of your itinerary. I agree with other posters that the leg to Spain seems too far outside your core itinerary. (and Spain is my favorite!)

Stacey, I can't remember all the details of your previous Thread. Could you confirm whether you've already bought return tickets to Frankfurt? As myself and others have mentioned, this version of your Itinerary still seems rather "ambitious". Which of the destinations you've listed would you be willing to skip? As someone else mentioned, Spain seems to be the outlier. Good luck!

Hello!
I was really hoping for ideas about people's favorite things to do or favorite places to stay. The post that goes something like, "while on the train to Venice we stopped in xyz village and had lunch at this little cafe. The owner was out of an old movie and it was the most memorable part of our trip." Or "My teenager just loved xyz in Germany, you just have to do it!" As a recap... I have non-refundable round rip tickets into Germany. I purchased on impulse. You know Carpe Diem! In trying to please my husband we are flying to Rome, where he is spending two weeks with us. The cost of the r/t ticket plus his 2 one ways from Italy to Germany I feel good about, plus it's an 1 1/2 hour flight, his commute to work is longer than that. When I booked these r/t tickets I was planning on just doing Northern Europe for his 2 week jaunt. Then he started making "requests". So Italy with him, that's why the cramming in of stuff there. 45 days is a lot of time = a lot of money. So people suggested I pay the fee of $250 per ticket ($1000) to come back early. So I decided, I have 45 days and I am going to see what I want to see. If I have to crawl to Granada, I am going there. It's my splurge. I'll camp 5 nights to recoup the travel cost. It's the only thing I am dying to see. The rest of the trip after Granada is total based on the cheapest flight out of there. Then the cheapest flight from there. Or Train. I don't think it matters much. Just that we see something new each day. In the Army you can operate a deadly weapon with only 4 hours sleep a night for 2 weeks. While on vacation my motto is you'll sleep for free at home. We go from 5am till 10pm with kids and 7am till 2am without. Plus all that travel time can be used to catch up on sleep :)

Fred- For 39£ you can take the train from London to the coast then overnight ferry to the Netherlands then train to Amsterdam. You have to pay for your sleeping accommodation also on the ferry if u want. It's a 12 hour ordeal but when you have 15 more days than money it's worth it. :)
They also offer it from London to Dublin.

That must be from Harwich? Good that you reserved the connection.

"plus it's an 1 1/2 hour flight, his commute to work is longer than that." Here I see what might be part of the problem. You need to consider not just the actual transit time but how long it takes to check out of a hotel, get to the train station/airport (and check in and wait if its an airport), then complete all the same steps in reverse order on the destination end. And add a little time to become oriented to your new surroundings. For a 90 minute flight, you can easily add 3-4 hours prior to the plane lifting off, and add 90 minutes- 2 hours on the destination end. So, it's not just the 90 minute flight to get from point A to point B, more realistically it's a process that takes about 6-7 hours.

I don't know about Emergen-C, but pharmacies are your friend in Europe. They are super helpful when you are sick, and can offer advice and meds that you might need a doctor for in the US. Direct input from my kids: To climb: Milan Duomo, St. Peter's in Rome, Notre Dame, Sacre Couer and Eiffel Tower in Paris, as many towers in Lucca as possible, any other church tower, mountain, or castle you find (that's from my 13 y/o) Underground: catacombs in Rome, catacombs in Paris, sewers in Paris, subways rock Biking: Berlin, Netherlands, Bruges, walls of Lucca, along the Rhine because you can stop at castles along the way Museums: DDR Museum in Berlin, British Museum in London, Louvre in Paris (good prep work paid off here!), ask for scavenger hunts or kid tours. Many museums have these now and they are lots of fun. Fun things: trampolines in the Tuilleries Gardens in Paris, driving on the Autobahn, Eisbecher (gigantic ice cream desserts) in Germany, London Eye, marble quarries in Carrera, Ferrari factory in Modena, having your caricature drawn on the street in Paris, pedal cars in the Boboli Gardens in Rome, giant pretzels Skippable (kid opinion): Milan (boring except climing the duomo), Amsterdam, Roman Forum, any dinner lasting more than 1.5 hrs.

I haven't read other information on your trip from other posts, only what you've provided here. I suggest you immediately take a hopper to Rome from where ever in Germany you're landing from your country of origin. You don't say what time of year you're traveling. Darkness comes early in winter, so you won't get a good feel for Frankfurt or Munich or Berlin, if you are coming downtown from the airport, etc. if you're only there in the dark for one night. This way you'll gain a full day in Rome. Also, I have to assume you have a travel day in between each of the 2 or 1 night stays. If not, you could get behind schedule quickly if the Italian train system goes on strike or you miss a train or something unforeseen happens. Just last week I was to take a train from Germany to Geneva, due to a problem with the tracks, they cancelled the morning trains and we all piled into an afternoon train, 5 hours later. Definitely fly from Madrid to Paris, it's a long, long train ride. You'll save time and money to fly from London to Amsterdam too. Lastly, you could just rent a car in Amsterdam and drive to where you want to go in Germany, it's only a few hours to the border. I think to better help with activities to recommend, it's important to know what time of year you're going. Skiing or christmasmarkets or summer festivals, etc. in different towns are fun.

Stacey, glad to see you've whittled down your list. I agree, do what you want (clearly that involves Spain on this trip), but another poster made a lot of sense about unexpected delays. I try to avoid one-night stays because so much can go wrong on the way there. The often-repeated comment that two nights is really one day actually depends on where you are going - the train to Venice from Rome is 4 hours, so if you leave at a reasonable hour in the morning, and there are no delays, you'll have at least a few hours the day that you arrive in Venice, and that's a great time to give yourselves an orientation tour of the city (keep the hotel's map handy and remember the vaporetto stop). Keep in mind that many museums are closed on Mondays, so if that's your only day in a city, you may not see something you really want to see. I'm looking forward to your trip report!

For 39£ you can take the train from London to the coast then overnight ferry to the Netherlands then train to Amsterdam. You have to pay for your sleeping accommodation also on the ferry if u want. It's a 12 hour ordeal For £22.99 per person you can fly Easyjet from Southend to Amsterdam. Flight time 1 hour 15.

I haven't seen your other posts but I was wondering, from one large family to another, have you booked any lodging yet? I've been the better part of two months booking lodging for our 35 days in Switzerland next summer. We're a family of 5 and its really hard to find places where we don't have to pay for two hotel rooms. Most european hotel rooms only hold a max of 3 people so its been many emails back and forth to hotels trying to find a reasonable place to stay that can hold us all in one room (and at times, we're still in two connecting rooms which raises the price dramatically).

Kathy- we will be there in the summer and we have 24 hours in Germany. Just so my husband can have a meal and get a tiny taste of Germany. Nigel- yes it is cheaper and faster but is it overnight on a ferry? It is one less night of lodging plus an experience unlike in the USA. Tom- I am flying 4 times in 45 days. I' not to concerned about travel times, if we get to see an entirely new culture in 6 hours. For $60 each. Please try that from the US. For $60 each I can maybe get a 1 way ticket to Las Vegas. Joanne- trust me all I do is look at lodging and the logistics of it. In some cities it is cheaper to book 2 rooms, in some they have 1 room, in some an apartment is better, in some a family room in a hostel is better, and in some places camping is a better option. Since everyone mentions the low cost of easy jet. Has anyone actually booked low cost 20€ tickets for 5-6 people at a time? For where they want to go and on the day they want to go? Booking 5-6 tickets is not an easy thing with low advertised rates with most carriers. It's usually just so many seats at that price.

Stacey, I know you think people are coming down on you for your plan but it sounds as if you have never traveled to Europe as a large family. I know that you lived there as a child but being the parent in charge of a large group is totally different. I travel with 3 children to Europe. I can't imagine all that moving around trying to keep everyone organized, make sure each kid has their suitcase, backpack, etc. I am a totally OCD organizer too but travel is hectic and when you are dealing with other languages, cultural mores and such it can be tiring. You haven't mentioned jet lag. You are arriving on an overnight flight, spending a night and then departing again. If your kids haven't experienced it you won't know their reaction. It takes me and my kids a few days to totally get over it. If you feel your kids can push through that is great but the reality could be completely different. I think people on this board are being respectful and helpful. They don't want you to arrive and after the first couple of weeks of pushing through a very hectic itinerary have it all fall apart because the kids are tired and cranky, haven't had enough sleep and are not really experiencing Europe and all it has to offer.

Con't: I urge you to consider 6 locations with an apartment in each. You will be able to immerse yourselves in that place. Take a couple of day trips to places that interest you. You can prepare breakfast and dinners at home saving money. I love shopping in the local supermarkets and at outdoor markets. It can be an experience in itself (just ask my niece who drank sour milk because I bought the wrong kind in France). You will be able to unpack, have a place to come to each evening to unwind. You will see plenty on your trip and give your children a wonderful experience that they can build upon with future trips. Check out sites like www.homeaway.com and www.vrbo.com for apartment rentals.

Stacy, everyone IS trying to help,, on a "Helpline" so I suggest you readjust your attitude, many folks here have travelled alot, and I agree that we all have different travel styles and that no one way is the right way, but when people suggest you rethink your one night stops and you want to take that the wrong way instead of thinking " why do so many suggest I rethink that?" then you are being a bit of a "debbie downer" to those who really have no vested interest in doing anything but helping you. Remember you titled this thread "Carefree" and we all know that doing one night stops ( especially with kids is not "carefree". For children , not knowing their ages I can suggest a few things my kids liked.
My young teen boys both loved the Invalids Army Musuem in Paris and the Catacombs. My three kids( two boys and 11 yr old daughter) all enjoyed the Eiffel Tower, and climbing the stairs of the Towers of Notre Dame. In London we all enjoyed the Natural History Musuem( and its free, great tip for budgeting for a large family) .

pat, childrens' ages were disclosed in post 28 in the previous thread, bit off more than I can chew. Stacey said, kids are going to be 17g, 13g, 11b& 10g next June

I was really hoping for ideas about people's favorite things to do or favorite places to stay. The post that goes something like, "while on the train to Venice we stopped in xyz village and had lunch at this little cafe. The owner was out of an old movie and it was the most memorable part of our trip." Or "My teenager just loved xyz in Germany, you just have to do it!" I can tell you we had those experiences in places we stayed at least a full week without moving. Because that's when you have the opportunity to just wander around, stop here and there, with no concern for the next train. If you're somewhere to experience a completely new culture for 6 hours all you really do is walk the main street, gawk and be gone. What my kids love most in Germany: * sit in an Italian ice cafe and splurge on a huge bowl filled with gelato, fruit, loads of whipped cream and sauce http://www.sanremo-coesfeld.de.tl/Eisbecher.htm * go to one of the many public outdoor swimming pools and spend the entire afternoon there * go to a soccer game with Bayern Muenchen * try out a "Klettergarten", here's one close to Frankfurt:
http://www.kletterwald-taunus.de/

cont. Similar our experience in Italy. Best events:
* spending a week in a rented villa (120 Euro/night for 6) not moving far away from the pool * sitting on the patio of our B&B overlooking the Bay of Salerno reading our books btw: our kids HATED the Cinque Terre as it was 98 F, no breeze, crowds everywhere. They didn't get to appreciate the fantastic views from the boat as they were fast asleep ... I actually happend to like the ONE hike we did, but it got seriously spoiled for me by my kids whining non-stop ... And no, this wasn't their first hike in their lives (we hike in the Rockies) nor their first trip to Europe. But this was the first time we did more of a RS style trip with an itinerary that had more moving around than what we'd usually do - and still quite a bit less than what you are currently planning.

Stacey, Let me also suggest that you might have better luck if you create multiple posts with more specific questions. Try posting by location or topic. For example, you might post something like: "Our family of 6 (kids age a, b, c, d) will be spending 3 nights in Granada. We're looking for accommodations for under x Euro per night. We also are looking for <specify type e.g. family-friendly, splurge, budget, etc.> restaurants, and activities that the kids would enjoy ... and so on." Also, be specific about some of your family's likes and dislikes (e.g. we like museums, or we like outdoor activities, or we like food markets, etc.) Your question covers a large area and is very open-ended. I know that I was overwhelmed when I read it. While I've been to all the cities that you listed, I just didn't know where to start or what might be relevant to your family.

With 4 kids I would try not to move that much. I know the Cinque Terre and Venice both look tempting, but you have to pack, unpack, check in and check out 3x in just 5 days (Venice, Verona, Cinque Terre). That's very stressful. I would drop the Cinque Terre, which are out of the way anyway, and spend two nights in Verona. On the second day you could see Lake Garda, which isn't less beautiful than the Cinque Terre. The towns along the lake are very beautiful too. Sirmione on the southern shore for instance has a cool castle which your kids will like. Or take the ferry to Riva or Arco on the more spectacular northern side.
You could simplify your journey even more by staying in Padua, which is between Verona and Venice. The city itself is very interesting too, cheaper than Venice and Verona, and it's only a short train ride in both directions.

I think based on what you have described in your previous posts you might find this itinerary helpful: fly to Germany 1 night Fly to Venice 6 nights -daytrip to Verona -daytrip to Rovinj, Croatia for your husband (there is a ferry) Train to Rome 7 nights -daytrip to Pompeii -daytrip to Florence Fly to Granada 5 nights -daytrip to Med for beach time (I actually don't know how feasible this is but it didn't look too far on a map) Fly to Paris 7 nights -daytrip Versailles -daytrip D-day beaches (can be done but is long day) Train to Amsterdam 7 nights -daytrip Haarlem -daytrip??? Train/fly to Germany Location 1 7 nights (possibilities include Bavaria you can even visit Salzburg from there, Munich, Berlin, Mosel/Rhine Valleys)
Train to Germany Location 2 7 nights Daytrips are just suggestions based on travel time/how close and what my own kids liked/have expressed interest in.

Con't. Sites: Paris, your kids under 18 are free at pretty much all of the most famous museums, sites (things my kids enjoyed - Louvre, D'Orsay, Notre Dame, looking at all the beautiful stained glass at churches, wandering and finding the nearest Amorino, going out to pick up fresh croissant each morning) Italy, kids are not free and there are usually no reduced cost admission tickets (we are planning Rome for 2014 and interests are ancient sites like Colosseum, Pantheon, Sistine Chapel, wandering back streets and hanging out in piazzas)
I haven't been to the other locations you want but finding our prices is easy once you know where you want to visit. I think everyone's advice has been good and if you sit back and really think about the logistics and actually enjoying your trip you may want to make a few changes. It's not about how many hours you can pack into each day but about the time spent together as a family and the cultural enrichment you will all receive.

Thanks for the links Beatrix. As we will be in Germany for 2 weeks. My kids are competitive swimmers. I was hoping for a break from the pool but they may want to get some swimming in. I know they r bringing a cap and goggles. :) Martin your post is exactly what I am looking for! A little more about our travel style and myself might be helpful. :) My girls and myself all have pocket funnels, we can use the latrines with the best of them. We have driven coast to coast not stopping for anything except for gas. We have backpacked 15 days straight carrying everything on our back, setting up camp only to break down in the morning to hike another 10-15 miles and do it again. Two of my girls are amazing athletes. Nationally ranked in Triathlons, Swimming, and Running. The kids and I have pulled a 29 foot trailer around and camped for 3 months straight with my husband visiting us when he could. We have had lunch with a guy we met sleeping on the beach in Mexico, best fresh seafood ever! We love an adventure. Not really the lay by the pool with a book type. :)

Check out travelforkids.com They have excellent kid touring ideas for most places in Europe. The best feature of the site is a list of books about each place. I have found their recommendations spot on, and kids are much better travelers when they know something about the place they are visiting. Engaged imaginations have lots more endurance than bored ones! Also, figure once a week or every 10 days, you'll need a maintenance day (or half day). This is a day everyone gets to sleep in, laundry gets washed, toothpaste purchased, outgrown shoes replaced (this has actually happened to uscool Italian sneaks purchased on a bridge in Venice proved to be a great souvenir), watch TV, maybe even choose a "American burger option". This is Rick's idea of a vacation from your vacation. As adults, we don't bother, but I highly recommend a little chill time when kids are involved. If you neglect sanity maintenance, you will have open rebellion on your hands by day 16, I don't care how well-traveled your kids are.

"pocket funnels" you learn something new on these forums everyday.

Stacey...obviously your family's stamina could put most people here to shame. We all have different travel styles and yours is certainly different than most posters here...I have traveled with pre-teen and teenage grandsons all over the US as well as a few trips to Europe and I am sure you know what your kids can handle... as far as cool experiences, we have had them everywhere (always spontaneous and unplanned) so what I would say is to leave yourself as open as you can to those serendipitious experiences. The one thing that I insist on when I take the kids is that they keep a trip log/journal that they fill in every night. It does not have to be a dissertation, but I have made up one that prompts them to write down memorable moments/foods/sights/ funny things that happen, as well as the typical sights seen, etc. With such a long trip they will forget. I make my own journals for each trip and leave blank paper in the back for sketching, etc. Have a wonderful trip. (my frist trip to Europe I had a car, a map of Europe, a little money, 17 days and I visited 9 countries and I would give anything to relive that trip again... it was with my daughter who was 21)

Now that I see a bit more about how active your family is I can offer a couple of other things that may make the trip more your style. I won't alter my advise to spend a week at a time in an area but especially in France and Netherlands biking is a huge thing (think Tour de France). Instead of Paris or Amsterdam you could base yourself in a smaller town or region and do daily biking trips visiting sites and smaller villages each day. This would keep you all active as well as show a different side of the country than the largest metropolitan area. If you check out TripAdvisor there is a poster called FrenchMystiqueTours and he lives in France and I believe runs a company that designs biking routes. Even if you don't get to the most famous sites offered you will still have an enriching travel experience. My kids loved Brittany and exploring seaside towns and medieval castles.

Thank you Marcella- I like your ideas. It's to bad that only kids under 18 from EU are free in Rome :( I may have to go back to the drawing board again. Angela- I just figured life would happen and we would be forced to take a maintenance day. Sickness, fever, etc. Do you know if they sell emergen-C in Europe or should we bring packets? Oh and can you bring full tubes of toothpaste within Europe plane travel or is it the same in the US with only pocket sizes. Pat- I would love to see your expression on this topic. :) you can get them at REI. Terry Katheryn- I would love to read that Travel journal. The more I think about it I might have to give up Granada and London, lease a car and do the same thing. If you could PM a rough itinerary of that trip I would love it.

Stacey I am no princess, in Italy there were a few bathrooms that were so dam nasty I just walked out and found a bush( rest stops) ! Better then dieing of fumes , lol

European airlines also have the same liquid rules that we do, but instead of 3 oz., it's 100 ml. So no full size tubes of toothpaste, unless you find one smaller than that. You can take as many small tubes as your 3-1-1 bag can hold, though.

Stacey, it sounds like your family can handle a more active trip than most, but be careful. You never know how they will react to jet lag. We took our boys to Europe for the first time when they were 16 and 12. The 16 year old was a super athlete in phenomenal condition and has never needed much sleep. He had terrible time adjusting to the time change. He was out of sorts for the first week. The 12 year old doesn't have an athletic bone in his body and is generally a slow mover and he had no problems with jet lag. So you never know. Also please don't think you can get by with four hours sleep like the military. They are well trained for that. And they are not having fun! If you want to enjoy yourselves and remember the trip, you will need at least as much sleep a night as you need at home, and probably a little more. And you'll need a little down time.

We took our kids to Sweden Norway and Denmark and later to the UK, so I can't offer specific suggestions for you. But I can tell you our kids liked hiking and climbing - either big hills or towers. They didn't like museums so much. Eating was fun for them - they loved trying new foods and it didn't have to be expensive. If you can find a walking tour that interests them, that might be good. Ours loved a Beatles tour in London and a bus version in Liverpool.

Itinerary suggestion: skip Milan and add time to Cinque Terre and either Venice or Verona. fly from Venice or Verona to Spain. Don't skip Granada; it will be hot but the Alhambra is fantastic. Now some suggestions for activities: (1) in Venice, take the vaporetto to Giudecca and take the kids to the pool (Piscina Communale di Sacca Fisola) for lap swim. My husband did this and had a great time; he had the beautiful pool almost to himself. Note that most European pools require caps and pool shoes (slippers or plastic flipflops) so your kids may want to bring those. http://www.rarinantesvenezia.it/sacca-fisola.php (2) In Germany, there is fantastic hiking at Garmisch-Partenkirchen. My favorites: (a) the Hollentalklam, a hike through a gorge with a raging river, on a path carved from the side, through tunnels and on engineered plank walkways. Beautiful and exciting. http://www.hoellentalklamm-info.de/
From the end, continue on to the hut and find the trail over to the cablecar at Osterfelderkopf to make a full day of it. (b) Take the Klettersteig across the face of the alpspitz. This is a "trail' on a ledge that crosses the face, with a cable to hold for security, but the ledge is wide enough to be safe. There is a fixed ladder at the end, and then you can scramble bolders to the summit. (c) Hike up Wank, across town, and watch the paragliders take off, or wander around the trails for great views.

Stacey, one other suggestion on the order of your itinerary ...
After Granada, find another location in Spain to visit then fly from Spain to London. From London take the Eurostar to Paris, then train Paris to Amsterdam. It will save you from getting across the channel twice. With regard to the train from London to Paris. ... Eurostar tickets go on sale 120 days before departure. The prices only go up as you get closer to departure date, so if you are planning to make this trip make sure to buy your tickets as soon as they go on sale.

What about family rates on the trains for Stacey and the kids. I know it exists inside France, does anyone know about cross-border travel or if she'd need to get a special card. It's usually once you have the 3rd child.

Stacey, My compliments on your kids as real troopers! If you aren't really pressed for time, taking the ferry to Amsterdam is better. I myself would prefer the night ferry ride of 12 hrs to flying,... reminds me going from Malmö,Sweden to Travemünde at night.

Thanks Betts- in Spain they want a Large Family Certification. How do I obtain this? I'm having a hard time looking up rates for a family of 6. On Bahn it won't let me enter 6 but on the over 5 page it won't let me enter 6 because the kids are considered 1/2. It's quite frustrating. Thanks Laura- I think we are going to do the Eurostar into London and fly back to Germany. I didn't like Amsterdam at 14 and my kids don't seem to thrilled. I think we may drive to the cheese market, Zaandam, and Duinrell. Lola- that hike in Germany sounds awesome! Where did you stay? We all want to skip Milan but that was the only cheap flight that gets my husband back to Germany before his flight home. At first we thought we would go see the Last Supper but tickets are hard to come by and 23€ each for 15 minutes viewing. I would rather have a nice glass of wine and dinner. :) Angela- was it expensive to rent the bikes? My kids watched Kids in Paris (they think those two boys are annoying, lol) but it showed them going to the sewer attraction and I thought it looked interesting. My kids were adamantly against it. :) Carol- we aren't Bettles fans but my kids do love to eat new food. What were the most memorable? In the car today my kids said they really want me to rent a car. They want us to be able to explore and be on our own time schedule. I just really want to go to Spain and Granada is crazy far for just me to drive. I can pick up the lease after my husband leaves in Milan ($1000 cheaper for a 5 seatbelt vs a 7). I don't think all of our train travels in Italy =$1000. But if we pick up the car in Rome with him (still $1000 more plus all the tolls) we can do Tuscany.

Marcella- there is no way I could pay FrenchMystiqueTours prices for the 5 of us. Wow! I like the bike part but I think it would be cheaper to pay the airline to bring our bikes and get a rack on the rental car. :) or even just buy bikes there and resell them to another family before we leave :) We looked into the 2 hour Gladiator tour in Rome for my son, 170€! That's insane! My daughter took a private animation lesson in Disney World for less than that. Thanks everyone on here for keeping me grounded. Today I found a flight from Madrid to Tangier for $50 each. My kids thought I had really lost it at this point. Screaming at me to walk away from the iPad. Then I thought I would be to embarrassed to even add it to my itenerary on here. Hehe. I have been looking everywhere for my passport all week. Today I went to the bank and was throwing all the contents of my safe deposit box out, the bank people thought I was mad. Finally I looked in my nook cover and there it was, such a random location. My question is that it expires January 2014 our trip is from June till August 2013. Will this be an issue?

For some strange reason, it says pretty clearly in the rules that you can not travel within 6 months of your passport expiring, which sort of makes it a 9 1/2 year term, not 10 years. To be safe, I would check the passport site. For London...FYI - lots of the museums are FREE. British, Science, Natural History, Victoria & Albert, London. Also, do as many of the RS town walks as you can since those are FREE and give you the once over without having to invest much time or money. Granada - I just got back from Madrid and really wished we could have made it down there (Next time!!). Your kids would like the bull fighting museum (FREE)in Madrid and the bullfighting tour was worth the money because it is something you can't see in the USA. Even if you don't do that, be sure to go check out a bullfighting bar and see the pictures on the wall of the matadors getting gored. That was a unique experience I have not experienced anywhere else I have been.

Stacey, Fat Tire Bike Tours( Paris, London and Barcelona, and Berlin I think) is fun, and might work out cheaper then French Mystique BUT, remember when you look at FMs rates they are PER GROUP, not per person. I suggest you contact him and ask what he would charge for your family.

Stacy, we have been to Garmisch-Partenkirchen 3 times and stayed a different place each time. Mather onlyone I would recommend is gästehaus Reiter. Www.reiter-gap.com. It is a beautiful house a bit outside of town ( fine with a car), so we were serenaded by cowbells each morning as the cows were moved to pasture. Mthey have an apartment that might work for you and prices are very reasonable. Rainer is very nice and speaks English. In Milan, you can save $$$ by buying foccacia sandwiches at Princi and having a picnic for dinner. The sandwiches are fresh and the focaccia is the best I've ever taster. The sandwiches are 4 euro and I bought a bottle of wine and some broccoli salad at the deli across the street for 7 euros. Total cost for dinner for 4 was 23 euro.

Don't know if your family likes museums, but we loved the Scavi Tour we took in Rome. It is the catacombs under the Basillica at the Vatican. We also loved the Borghese Gallery in Rome. Both of those you will need reservations for. Outside the Borghese is a beautiful park that looks fabulous for a picnic. We also enjoyed Ostia Antica, Roman ruins.
It is nice to have a car and just be on your own schedule and go where you want to go. It is fun to see a village and go explore it with no care for a schedule. Get a good GPS and just set out! Fun, fun, fun!

I don't know your itinerary for Germany, but something your kids certainly would enjoy is hiking in Saxon Switzerland near Dresden. I think the pics speak for themselves (pics are clickable): http://www.wandern-saechsische-schweiz.de/Schram_Stiegen.asp http://www.wandern-saechsische-schweiz.de/Schram_Zwillingsstiege.asp http://www.wandern-saechsische-schweiz.de/Schmilka_Kleiner_Kuhstall.asp Regarding Milano and the Cinque Terre (again): staying in Milano for two days isn't needed. The city is not that interesting. If your flight is in the afternoon or evening I wouldn't stay there at all. Surrounding towns like Bergamo, Monza or (Lake) Como (where George Clooney lives) are more interesting. Actually, I would only stay in Milano to do day trips to these places, lol. The Cinque Terre are the newest hype and massively overrated. Yes, they are very nice, but they are also 6 hours away from Venice/Verona. IMHO that's wasted time, almost a full day. And is this (Cinque Terre) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Italy.Cinque.Terre.Manarola.2.jpg/1024px-Italy.Cinque.Terre.Manarola.2.jpg
really so much better than this (Malcesine on Lake Garda), which you can comfortably do from Verona? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/View_malcesine_lake_garda_veneto_italy.JPG/1024px-View_malcesine_lake_garda_veneto_italy.JPG

Last Supper but tickets are hard to come by and 23€ each Not necessarily so. We used the official site. The official site at http://www.vivaticket.it/index.php?nvpg&id_evento=298097&wms_op=cenacoloVinciano&SiteVersion=1&change_language=1 is easy to use in English but I would not encourage using the online booking feature of the site. It is far better to use the phone number on the site and speak to a real person. They speak very good English, can answer your questions and will find tickets not available on the website. For 6.50€ plus 1.50€ booking fee each. We enjoyed our visit and understood a lot more about the painting when we left...

A really fun thing to do in Germany is take the luge rides. Many of them around Bavaria, and really fun!

Stacey, I did not take my kids to any place you are going except London, although we did take the older one and his wife to Germany. But of course he was an adult then. As for food, my boys loved fish and chips in London. There are lots of places to get take out and quite inexpensive and filling. Pret a Manger has great, inexpensive sandwiches - lots of variety - they boys liked them too. Lots of Indian restaurants in London, which my boys loved. In Paris, I am guessing they would like crepes. There are lots of take-out places with quite a variety of crepes to choose from - also cheap and filling. Bakeries in Paris have lots of great choices - pain au chocolat, all kinds of breads, quiches (my boys probably wouldn't go for those), great sandwiches at good prices. It's easy to find good ice cream and gelato. I have not been to the other places you are going, so can't help there.

In the UK, we loved those sandwiches think they are called something like "pasties", someone from there can help with that. We thought they were great, reasonable and filling. Also, for touring, National Geographic magazine has a lot of articles about free things to do in different cities including which museums have "free days". Worth doing on line search.

Stacey: It appears as if you're wanting the impossible task of seeing everything in only 6 weeks. Moving 4 kids is very difficult and you don't the trip to be a blur to them. Observations: 1. Fly open jawed for the same faresinto one city and out of another. Traveling in a straight line is less expensive and more efficient. 2. You should consider leasing an auto for time you're not in Great Britain. 3. Book B&B's outside larger towns or villas for a week or more. 4. Suggested itinerary: Rome 2 weeks, Tuscany/Venice 1 week, 1 week traveling thru Germany to Amsterdam, stay outside London 1 week, stay outside Paris 1 week. 5. Take the Eurostar between Paris and London.
Skip Milan, Verona and Cinque Terre. Italy is a two trip place. Spain is also a trip to itselfand much larger than it looks. I used to travel as far as I could in 2 weeks and 3 weekends, and came home beat. There's just so much to see, and it's too easy to overwhelm children of any ageor even adults. Slow down, and you'll have a much more manageable trip.

We traveled for a month, twice, when our kids were 7 & 10 and 10 & 13. It was the best thing we ever did! We tried to stay in one place for at least a week a couple of times in each trip, renting a flat so we had cooking facilities and more space. The flat was usually cheaper than a standard hotel room (or at least not more expensive) and we saved a ton of money by eating breakfast in the flat, taking a picnic for lunch (bring a soft-sided cooler and a little ice pack so you can take lunch/snacks with you), and sometimes doing a simple dinner in the flat. Everybody needs a little space too! It looks like you are going to be spending a lot of time (and money) moving from place to place. You didn't say how old your kids are, but all the moving around might be a hassle. (And our kids got tired of the trains after awhile.)Madrid/Grenada are kind of out of the way compared with some of your other destinations. You might want to think about whether it's really worth the time, money, and hassle to get there. I discovered that it was really important for us not to do too much each day. Too many museums and sights are too tiring. We all needed some free time each day. Have fun! You'll come home with some amazing memories.

Marcia, You say the ages of the children weren't mentioned. There are lots of posts to scroll through... On the first page of this thread, in the 24th post, I quoted the ages that had been given in the previous thread. The answer is: childrens' ages were disclosed in post 28 in the previous thread, bit off more than I can chew. Stacey said, kids are going to be 17g, 13g, 11b& 10g next June

Hi!
Just wanted to post an update of my planning using everyone's input. Rome 6 nights Venice 4 nights Milan 1 night (early flights out) Madrid 4 nights Lisbon 4 nights Paris 4 nights London or Krakow or Dublin 4 nights--- money is the driving factor here Munich jumping off point for Germany 17 nights with a rental car.

Sounds like a perfect plan! The new pace you are going will make it a much more carefree, enjoyable trip. You will be able to get a real feel for the places you are going. For budget reasons, I wouldn't chose London. Sounds like you have made good progress in your planning.

Agree with Susan & Monte, if money is driving factor I would skip both London and Dublin, which can also be expensive and is quite out of the area of the rest of your itinerary. Krakow sounds good, maybe a budget flight from Paris, then on to Munich. Sounds like a wonderful trip.

Thank you! I'm leaning more toward Krakow but my kids won't let London go. I'm going to see what the Eurostar rates are 120 days out. We are leaving in June. :)

Stacey, In between Granada and Paris, I'd recommend making a pit stop in the La Rioja region of Spain,and then head up to the Bordeaux?Dordogne area of France, before ending up in Paris. La Rioja has some incredible medieval history, stunning scenery, and you can check out where they run with the bulls in Pamplona. Bordeaux and Dordogne will give you a much different view of France than Paris. You'll find yourself in stunning pastoral settings, filled with beautiful chateaus, and incredible history (ok, all of Europe has incredible history.) Rocamadour is a cool town, set in and amongst cliffs above the Alzou Valley, and you can see some really cool prehistoric cave paintings in Les Eyzies. I've never traveled by train from Granada-La Rioja-Bordeaux-Paris, but I know the Eurorail system is generally pretty awesome. Hope that helps! Have fun! Blake

I'm going to see what the Eurostar rates are 120 days out. The prices for Eurostar available 120 days before the June date will be similar to the prices available today for a date 120 out. They may vary slightly but unlikely much.

It's stating $281.00 total for standard fare for March 1, 2013 for 1A, 2Y, 2C. Paris to London. Do you think summer rates would be the same? Thanks!