22 Day Trip- Fly into Frankfurt out of Milan. What to do in-between.

In your place, I would seriously consider a good 5 nights (4 days) in the Swiss Alps or the Dolomites. That would scratch your outdoorsey itch and provide a nice counterpoint to other parts of your trip. It's not camping, either.

Venice or no is a very personal decision. The standard avoid-the-crowds strategies work there too. It is popular for a reason, though.

What time of year is the trip?

I have just a few thoughts; others will be able to give more comprehensive input.

• Check into the specifics of any night train you are considering. Be sure you know whether you have to transfer (at what hour of the night and with how long a layover?) and how many stops the train makes en route. Each stop means braking, station noise and acceleration. It's hard to sleep though that kind of activity, and if you don't sleep well, the next day will be a non-productive misery.

• Be sure your husband understands that many of the autobahns do have speed limits. We had a poster on the forum not long ago who thought he could drive any speed he wanted. Speeding tickets are expensive.

• Check carefully on international drop charges before signing up to pick up a car in Germany and drop it in Austria. You might get lucky, dropping in Salzburg, since it's not far from Germany, but international drop fees are usually many hundreds of euros.

• Milan is not generally considered one of Italy's prime tourist destinations, but it does have two very popular sights: The Last Supper (on-line tickets sell out extremely fast) and the Duomo. The Brera neighborhood is said to be nice, and the Galleria Vitorio Emanuele II is a classic shopping arcade. I think most people try to spend just one night in Milan--not because it's a bad place, but because Italy has so very many more-enticing (to most visitors) destinations. If you're not interested in The Last Supper, I'd just plan to see the Duomo at the end of the trip, since you'll probably want/need to spend the last night in Milan anyway.

• I haven't been to Venice recently, but the areas around the Rialto Bridge and Piazza San Marco were extremely crowded even at the times of my earlier visits. It seems from recent reports that it is still possible to enjoy the city if you spend enough time there to see the back corners, side canals, etc. If you go for just one day (2 nights), I think there's a big risk that you won't like Venice much because you will be part of a mob the entire day. In my view there's simply no comparison between Venice and Milan; Venice is the clear winner. But Venice needs time.

Thanks for the responses so far.

To answer your question:
We are planning a late May through mid-June trip.

Thanks for the feedback on the car. We were planning on dropping it off once we reach Munich- we won't need nor want a car in the city.

Great advice on the Last Supper and Milan in general. While we love Da Vinci, we spent time appreciating at The Virgin of the Rocks in somewhat peace than fight the droves to get a glimpse of the Mona Lisa.

thanks again!

If you love art, you want to spend a good bit of time in the Florence area. Orvieto cathedral is a Wow. I did not like Asissi-it struck me as more of a pilgrimage place for Catholics. I am not a fan of Belgium or Venice or Neuschwenstein Castle, although I loved Fussen, the little town close to Neuschwenstein Castle. I think I've read that Lucca, Italy has walls on which you can ride bikes. With your interests, you should read Ross King's book about Brunellschi(sp) who designed the dome of the duomo in Florence. I also enjoyed Judith Testa's book about Florence.

Question. 1. Any advice on whether Venice is really worth it given the tourist crush?

Venice is worth it for the Architecture Biennale, happening in 2020.
Venice is worth it for the architecture of Carlo Scarpa, Venice’s best known modern architect. He was influenced by Frank Lloyd Wright and also Japanese architecture. Strongly expressed horizontals - given that Venice is all about water, horizontals make a lot of sense.

wow! these are great recommendations! Thank you!

@Aussie- exactly the type of info we needed to make the decision to spend a day or two in Venice.

If you love art, you want to spend a good bit of time in the Florence
area

Ditto. For anyone with backgrounds in art and architecture, the "'Cradle of the Renaissance" is a must! The duomo (the outside is more interesting than the inside); baptistry and museum; Convent of San Marco (for the Fra Angelico frescoes in situ in the former monks' cells); Piazza Santissima Annunziata (with Brunelleschi's Ospedale degli Innocenti decorated with famous della Robbia infants, and lovely Renaissance frescoes in the entry cloister of Santissima Annunziata church next door), the looming, Medieval pile of Palazzo Vecchio and sculptures on Loggia dei Lanzi; Ponte Vecchio (the oldest and only bridge in Florence to survive WWII); Uffizi, Accademia.... Her treasures are wonderful and too many to list!

Some pre-reading on Piazza Santissima Annunziata and related structures:
https://www.visitflorence.com/florence-monuments/piazza-ss-annunziata.html
http://www.florence-on-line.com/piazzas/piazza-della-santissima-annunziata.html
http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei/Santissima-Annunziata.html#
https://www.visitflorence.com/florence-museums/innocenti-museum.html

Piazza della Signoria (Loggia dei Lanzi and Palazzo Vecchio):
https://www.visitflorence.com/florence-monuments/piazza-della-signoria.html

San Marco:
https://www.visitflorence.com/florence-museums/san-marco.html

San Miniato (for the view if not this very old and important church itself):
https://www.visitflorence.com/florence-churches/san-miniato.htm

The "Visit Florence" website will provide info on the attractions above I've left out links for. Do be aware the you will need advance tickets to avoid really ugly ticket lines at the Uffizi and possibly the Accademia as well.

Florence also makes a very good base for day trips by public transport to Lucca (ride bikes around the ancient walls), Siena, Pisa, Fiesole (you could take a bus up and hike back down into central Florence) and others.

No Belgium this time, IMHO. It's great but save it for another trip that you can combine with the Netherlands. :O)

It looks as if--like all of us--you have more than enough content for your trip, but I would feel remiss if I didn't mention that between Venice and Florence lies Vicenza, known for Palladian architecture. Vicenza would also be a viable stop between Venice and the Dolomites if you planned to approach the mountains from Bolzano.

I retract the idea of the Alps for the springtime. Maybe consider an outdoorsey break on the Italian Riviera/Cinque Terre with some long walks to get in tough with the land and break up your trip.

Florence is indescribably great but has a gritty side, be aware and have a strategy (e.g. plan day trips, stay on the other side of the Arno, etc.).

As for the German part of the trip:

• Frankfurt is a worthwhile destination in itself for art and architecture lovers (e.g., Städel Museum). Consider a day trip to Darmstadt if you find the Mathildenhöhe interesting (though I don't find Darmstadt particularly interesting otherwise). The Middle Rhine Valley and Speyer are other worthwhile destinations which are not too far away. The former might offer something similar to what you expect from the Black Forest. You could do this as a day trip or spend 2-3 nights in the area, do some hikes or a day trip from there. Or go canoeing on the Lahn river for half a day or so.
  • Munich also has noteworthy art museums (and, of course, the Deutsches Museum) and some interesting architecture (especially the Olympic Stadium). Munich is also fairly close to the Alps and a good base for day trips.
  • If you decide to go to Switzerland, the obvious route would be to take a train to Basel which would go through Karlsruhe (with its centre for art and media - not a typical tourist destination, though) and Freiburg, which is also worth a visit. I love the scenery when taking a train through the Alps.

I would not go to Belgium on this trip, just for logistics. There are lovely towns in Belgium that are definitely worth a visit, but there is a lot to see "in the right direction" towards Italy as well.

If your husband absolutely wants to rent a car, plan carefully when to use it. Assuming he wants to drive quickly on the Autobahn: This will not work during rush hour in the Frankfurt or Munich metropolitan areas :-) The A5 has many lanes in the Frankfurt area, so fast driving is possible without too much of a risk on Sunday mornings (or, to some extent, on the whole weekend, and outside rush hours during the weekdays). Large trucks are not allowed on the road on Sundays; on the other days, they tend to clog the right lane of most major highways...
A car will not be useful during the time spent in big cities either. So definitely consider renting the car only for a couple of days, but not for the entire time spent in Germany.

Thanks, everyone for all the great advice..

I am not sure how fast hubby will be driving in what will likely be a van or other family vehicle, but I appreciate the extra info and will keep that in mind.

We have removed Belgium complete thanks to all of you for your input. We are now wondering if we should do 4 or 5 days in Austria a couple in Munich and then a couple in Venice, taking a Nightjet from Salzberg to Venice. Having more days in Austria would mean less time in Germany.

Right now it would break up to be:
*4 to 5 days in Germany (aside from Munich, we are not sure where else
in on our way and that we should definitely hit)

* 3 days in Austria
* 2 to 3 days in Venice
* Maybe some time in Cinque Terre?
* 6 to 7 days in Tuscany (taking day trips from one house)
* 2 days (1 night) Milan

We have a total of 22 days late May/early June 2020
Thoughts?

Thanks again everyone

My advice (but I am a Venice nut case) is give yourself three days in Venice which would be four nights. The Archi Biennale is worth a full day on its own, better a couple of days. It is about the practice and intellect of modern architecture, how the built environment interacts with society. It has nothing to do with Better Homes and Gardens.

For someone with an Arts background, the Palazzo Fortuny in Venice is not be missed. Combination home, workshop, museum, gallery. We have visited half a dozen times, always finding something new.
https://fortuny.visitmuve.it/en/home/

Another “Must See” for us is the Tre Oci photo gallery. Chances are there will be an interesting exhibition, maybe very modern, or maybe a significant retrospective. http://www.treoci.org/index.php/en/

The Biennale, Fortuny and Tre Oci do not make it into Rick’s books. So are never crowded.

An Architect
A person into the Arts.
Bauhaus
Berlin
Have I just thrown a curve ball into the box of jigsaw pieces?

You were smart to skip Belgium for this trip. Brugges is nice, but it is a bit out of your way.

So you are focusing on Italy. Love Italy, it has so much history, art and culture. Also, great food.

I suggest on your way south from Frankfurt, stopping for a day at Heidelberg and then either Friberg/Triberg in the Black Forest or Straussbourg, France/

Switzerland is very expensive, you will find most everything is at least 50% higher there than in Germany, Austria or Italy.

If you wanted to stop in Switzerland, I suggest Interlaken for a couple of days.

We did a bike tour from a cruise once from Civitizechia that was only a day. The bikes were old and in poor condition. I did long distance biking on a road bike until recently (like doing the BRAG that was 450 miles in a week). These were mountain bikes and in poor condition, but we only did about 13 miles on the tour, so it wasn't a big deal. Just make sure if you book a bike tour what kind of bike you are renting.