2-3 weeks in Europe Itenerary

Black Forest too far away for a visit from Frankfurt or Munich.

Look at staying in apartments ( ferienwohnung ). Much cheaper than 2 hotel rooms with more room. This makes extending to 3 weeks easier on the wallet.

Instead of staying in Frankfurt, go to the middle Rhine, staying in one of the towns between Bingen/Rudesheim and Boppard. Russ gives some good reasons for Boppard. I like Bacharach because I have a place to stay with the world’s nicest innkeeper. Bacharach has a castle hostel that you might consider - I stayed there 49 years ago.

The train between Munich and Venice is excellent. Just yesterday as we were taking the Royal Gorge train in Colorado, my wife commented on how much she had enjoyed the Munich/Venice train ride.

In Italy consider staying in Convents ! These usually have quad rooms and are a decent price. No relgious requirements - don’t have to be Roman Catholic or even Christian. The one we stayed at in Venice was on a canal midway between Rialto Bridge and St. Marks. Our cab driver said the one in Florence was the best location in town. In Rome we were a short walk to the Vatican and near 2 subway stations. We wouldn’t consider staying elsewhere ! monasterystays.com

Do you speak either German or Italian ? You don’t need to, but is more fun if you do ! My Bacharach landlady has a translator app that works very well when my German fails me. English was spoken by someone in each of the convents altho my wife usually had enough Italian to get by. In one she had a good conversation in Spanish with one of the nuns.

If you want another country, do Salzburg for 3 days or more rather than as a daytrip from Munich.

Plan for 2 weeks or should we plan for 3?

Absolutely, plan for 3. You have a lot on your itinerary, too much to do comfortably in 2 weeks.

Start by being brutally honest with yourself, about the usable time you will really have, and how much time is lost to basic logistics. To wit:

1. Count your days honestly, don't cheat or tell yourself little white lies (most first time visitors do). Don't count your arrival day, or your departure day, no matter what time your flights come and go. Write off those days as unusable for actual sightseeing/activities.

2. Accept that every time you pick up and change locations, you use up that day. You are changing locations (at least) 4 times, so if you stick to your plan, subtract 4 days from what you have available.

3. For a first-time-to-Europe trip, I don't think Frankfurt has enough heft to justify making it one of your 4 or 5 destinations/bases. If Germany really appeals to you, move directly to somewhere on the Rhine south of Frankfurt, or Munich. Look at the Rick Steves Germany suggested itineraries.

4. You are going to need to make some trade-offs: you list lots of places in Germany AND Italy, and you won't have enough time for them all. You could either pick Germany OR Italy, and spend 3 weeks in either one, or if you really want to do both countries, then accept that you will need to thin out your long list of destinations.

You should get a guide book (or two -- one for Italy, one for Germany) and study them intensively for a while, before you start making any detailed plans.

Stephen and David have given you lots of good advice. There is also a thread in the General Europe Section with advice especially aimed at first timers that you should look at.
My advice:
Definitely do 3 rather than 2 weeks.
Visiting more countries will not yield a better trip, and moving around eats up time. Find out what is offered in the places you select. Your local library probably has guide books and even some travel show cds. Check them out. Then you can select your destinations. I’ve lost count of how many trips I’ ve had to Europe; and I wouldn’t put Cologne or the Black Forest on my list for the first. And certainly not Frankfurt.

Not sure how to prioritize your time? Take some advice from the professionals who have been showing the way for 30+ years...

From this page, click "Explore Europe" at upper left...
In the "Countries" list, click Germany...
On the Germany page, note all the useful suggestions (explore all of them).
Be sure not to miss this one: Under "Plan" click "Germany: Recommended Itinerary"
Note that if you did his recommended "7 days" itinerary, that gets you the best of western Germany plus the side-trip to Salzburg. From there, you could work your way south to Italy....
Now repeat the above steps for Italy...
Note that the the northern "half" (well, maybe 3/4) of the Recommended Itinerary for Italy could be tacked on for you, coming from Salzburg...
ROUGHLY follow the suggested (roughly) 8 day itinerary or so, ending in Rome.

You don't need to slavishly follow every single segment, you can adjust these itineraries to suit your tastes, but this would give you a great starting point to craft a customized 3 week trip that would hit the highlights (you get to define those) and would get you many of the top stops in Germany and Italy (with a brief stop in Salzburg on the way).

Need to crack the books to get a better sense of what's there, what's worth seeing and what can be skipped, and how those recommendations align with your tastes.

Be careful not to add too many locations – that's hard to resist and is a mistake many first-timers make, but as Rosalyn very correctly points out, adding more stops will not improve your trip (most people don't learn that until after their first couple of trips!).

Good luck.

We just took a similar trip. First trip to Europe as a family; dad is 66, mom (me) is 54, daughter the college grad is 22, and son a college sophomore is 20. As a family, we travelled together for 22 days; daughter went on to Madrid to meet her boyfriend who was finishing up college with study abroad.
We had a wonderful time but both “kids” and dad said they wished we had spent more time in fewer places. We went to Rome, based near Paestum for 3 days to see the village where my husband’s family is from, Florence, Venice, Amsterdam (flew from Venice to Amsterdam via EasyJet), London; then home for husband, son and me. Except for a hiccup with a cancelled train connection from Florence to Venice, our travels were as scheduled (which given travel this summer was absolutely miraculous). Train travel is wonderful, fast and efficient, but even perfectly scheduled and executed, travel basically consumes a day (pack and check out of hotel, travel to train station, board, travel, disembark, travel to hotel and check in).
There were four adults and we stayed in hotels, in one room. In Rome we had 5 adults (boyfriend joined us in Rome), and were in one hotel room.

Based on our experience, I would suggest the following:
3 weeks since it is an option
Try not to add places to this itinerary
Try not to plan / buy tickets for things every day of your trip - some of our best days were just walking and soaking up everything and grazing on incredible food. We also toured some places that we just happened upon because we were just wandering…
Have each member of your family give a “must do” and then 2 alternatives. Plan for the must does, then roll to back ups.
Book tickets for big things like the Vatican or the Accedemia (if these or other big sites are on your list) as far in advance as reasonably possible.
Three of the hotels where we stayed in Italy where in the RS Italy book. All of our hotels allowed free cancellations within 5 days or less of arrival. Since going in June, I strongly recommend making sure the hotel has air con, but that’s just me. I cannot sleep when I am hot. We were in Italy the end of May through the first week of June and it was getting hot.

While you did not ask, I would also recommend sticking with carry-on suitcases only. We each had one carry-on suitcase and one backpack (daughter and I had purses too which we would shove in backpacks if required) per person. Husband had a third bag for CPap which was allowed by airlines including EasyJet. Navigating train stations, walking to hotels or using public transportation and cab rides was so much easier. We also rented a car for the Pasteum portion of the trip and it was quite a Tetris to load the vehicle, even with this limited amount of luggage and people.

Enjoy all aspects of this trip; including the planning!

We’ve traveled to all of these places (some with our teens), so I’ll share my advice.

1. Identify what (specifically) appeals to you about Germany and Italy. Half-timbered buildings, food, mountains, history, art museums, etc.

2. Admit that you won’t see it all. Don’t even try to. Focus on making GOOD memories of fewer places, rather than dragging a bunch of grumpy people to more places just to check them off some “must-see” list.

3. Focus on what appeals to YOU and your FAMILY. If you’re not into museums, don’t fill your day with museums. If you’re into cars or military history, go to THOSE museums, instead of art museums.

4. Give each other some breathing room. Stay in apartments where you have some space to spread out. Or plan on getting two rooms in a hotel. Hotel rooms in Europe with two queen beds are almost non-existent. Rooms that “sleep 4” usually have a sofa bed.

5. Plan on doing laundry. A lot. In Europe, if an apartment advertises a “washer”, it probably holds a quarter of a “normal” load that a US machine holds. So maybe 3-4 outfits (for 1 person) fit in the washer. A “dryer” can be a metal drying rack. Or it could be a washer/dryer combo that takes about 4 hours for the entire cycle and gets a load about 80-90% dry. I always ask if there is a “drying machine” when a dryer is advertised. Sometimes using a “fluff & fold” laundry service where you drop off your laundry and pick it up the next day is soooooo worth it.

6. Plan to see one “must-see” every day (preferably in the morning). We shoot for lunch somewhere with a great view, then return to the apartment for a little break after lunch. Nap, text, instagram, etc. Then back out for dinner, evening sightseeing, etc. That little break really makes a difference and keeps energy levels up.

   1. Get up early and wander the streets. My younger son’s favorite memories are going out early with my husband to the bakeries to get breakfast to bring back to the apartment. Some places get very crowded, but I guarantee they look very different at 7 am than at 10:30 when all the tour groups roll in.

As for cities:
I wasn’t impressed with Cologne. I would base in Boppard vs. Frankfurt. Take the train to St. Goar and see the fortress. Then continue by train to Bacharach (such a cute town). Explore a while, then take the boat back to Boppard. Watch the boat schedules - they are infrequent and sometimes difficult to understand.

Next day, take the train to Burg Eltz. Fantastic castle. Walk to it from the parking lot, vs taking the tram. Lovely approach through the forest.

Salzburg is my favorite city in Europe, much preferred over Munich. If your idea of Germany is charming chalets with cute flower boxes set amongst gorgeous alps, you are picturing Bavaria: southern Germany and Austria. I would switch out Salzburg for Munich. Then you could day trip to Hallstatt or Berchtesgaden or Munich.

Florence is all about art museums, really. (And really good gelato!) Really great art museums, but if that’s not your thing, maybe skip it and devote more time to Rome.

I highly recommend taking some walking tours in Rome. You’ll learn sooooo much more, especially at the Forum.

Gelato, every day. It’s a rule for our family. Often twice a day. Trust me.

If you extend to 3 weeks, I wouldn’t try to add another country except Austria. It’s “on the way” so you wouldn’t take up a lot of travel time, and I just love it so much!

Agree with all the responses above about going for 3 weeks, rather than 2. You will not regret it. I would also look for Airbnbs or Ferienwohnung (holiday apartments). They will save you money by allowing you to prepare some of your own food, and are usually much more cost effective. In many case (at least in Germany), you will find these apartments by contacting the local TIC in the cities you will be going to.

You can also find information by visiting the city's website - every decent-size town and city in Germany has its own website that you can get to by adding .de to the name (for example, www.bacharach.de). Once you get there, there should be a tourism page - click on that, and then look for the second on hotels, guesthouses and ferienwohnungs. The larger towns and cities will offer English versions but if not, use Chrome as a browser and add Google translate as an extension and it will automatically translate it for you.

Are you planning on renting a car or using public transportation? And what is your time frame for travel? There is a lot to consider there. Germany has excellent public transportation, but with 4 people, it might be more cost effective to rent a car. On the other hand, your kids may like the idea of traveling by train. You might want to do both while you are there. Keep in mind that if you cross country borders, there may be additional requirements and costs. Car rental prices have been sky high but are starting to go down now.

Forget staying in Frankfurt, go with a place north or south.

Your itinerary produces a trip of "see there" experiences.
We find enjoyment by slowing down and creating a wonderful journey of "being there".
The essence of Europe is captured in moving less enabling the opportunity to experience more.
Slow down you move too fast, you got to make the moment last!

I moved to Austin in 1969.

I'm with stephen, travel4fun, geovagriffith, and David as regards leaving Frankfurt airport not for Frankfurt proper but for the Rhine Valley instead.

While Frankfurt is a possible base, you'll probably find the Rhine a more scenic and charming travel base - but DON'T head SOUTH from FRA airport as someone suggested - move WESTWARD and north in the direction of Mainz, Koblenz and Cologne to the more attractive part of the river, the Middle Rhine Valley ("Mittelrheintal", in yellow on this map.) The towns of Boppard and Bacharach, mentioned already as possible travel base towns, lie between Bingen and Koblenz.

Scene near St. Goar, between Boppard and Bacharach; St. Goar is another good base town option - it is located in perhaps the most scenic spot in the Rhine Valley.

Here's a zoom-in map of the Koblenz - Bingen area (known as the UPPER Middle Rhine Valley) showing towns, railways, ferry crossings, and cruise ship docks. Click on town names for more info.

Boppard would be my base town recommendation; from there, you're closer to Cologne for your day trip there, and you're also closer to Cochem (Mosel) and Burg Eltz Castle. Also, unlike the other towns, Boppard offers free train travel around much of the Rhine/Mosel to all guests who book there for the duration of their stay. Toss in Boppard's larger offering in the way of hotels and restaurants, its developed riverfront promenade, and its chairlift ride, and it's a choice that's hard to beat.

Marksburg Castle in the old-world town of Braubach is the one must-see Rhine Castle IMHO. It's just across the Rhine and a little north from Boppard. You can get there by train, by ferry crossing + walk + train, or by K-D cruise boat (limited boat schedule, however.)

Some other thoughts - What are the genders of your kids? Do they have any special interests?

Between Frankfurt ( or I hope, the Rhine ) and the Munich area are lots of places that may be of interest. Interested in cars? Then Stuttgart might be a place to visit. Rothenburg ob der Tauber is a frequently visited place on the way to Munich - a completely walled village with an interesting 'Torture' museum and the entertaining Night Watchman tour.

Do you want some time in the mountains? Then perhaps you could spend a couple of days in Mittenwald near Munich or the region outside Salzburg.

Unless you have a great desire to drive in Germany, trains are all you will need. Except for the longer distance routes, the regional 'Lander' tickets are what you need. 4 travel very cheaply using these. For the longer distance trips and the train to Venice and the rides in Italy, book in advance for great savings. In Germany this can be done 6 months in advance.

If you have some leeway in when you can begin the trip, check various dates for flights. Around late May/early June there may be significant price differences from one day to another.

In Italy I did last trip as you suggest with 3-3-4 days to visit the big three. If you aren't big on art, then Venice and Florence could be done staying only 2 nights each.

As you get more detail in your trip, come back on this website with more questions. As you can tell, there are quite a few people here who are willing to help you have a nice trip.