2 - 18 year old girls. Dad needs help with itinerary

I understand a concerned father's situation here. You're correct that travel time takes up a significant amount of total time, when there is a trip with many changes of location. There are train or airplane travel options. Research which ones are less time, after considering getting to the airport, etc. Let them know that, as a rule of thumb, 2 nights = 1 day of sightseeing.

At 18, they are women so they certainly can travel together at that age. Many young women live abroad at that age or get involved in study abroad situations. All they need is their Eurail passes, travel documents, and money and they are good to go. I traveled solo at their age. I would dump Lauterbrunnen and give those days to Florence.

Terri Lynn and I are on the same page, as the saying goes, on this. When our son was that age we bought him a backpack, air tickets to and from and gave him a credit card to use. We saw him when he left and picked him up when he returned. He had seen some of Ireland and some of Scotland by the time he returned, and I'm not sure what he did there other than buy me a pocket knife and see the Book of Kells.

What lucky young women! The locations seem a bit spread out to me but a good site to find out train duration and connections (but not fare unless the travel begins or ends in Germany) is the Deutsch Bahn. If the girls don't mind having a pre-determined plan, then train tickets purchased as soon as they are available through the country's rail site can save a lot of money (although your cc might charge you 3% for conversion). To compare whether flying would be better, I use skyscanner.com (and easyjet.com because easyjet lately hasn't shown up on the skyscanner site). Pre-purchasing airfare for domestic European flights saves money as well. Personally I take the train whenever possible because usually the trains depart from the center of a town and arrive at the center of a town rather than having to travel to the airport, often a distance away from the city center.
Hope this helps get you started on their plans! It's not early to be getting these plans set!

lovely and lucky young ladies. But young and probably not as informed about the underpinnings of this trip as they think. Imagine at 18 if you had 21 days in Europe...you would want to go to all those places too. It's a classic wish list. I have no idea if they are old enough and smart enough to take the trip. I assume you, who know them, think they are or they would not be going and you certainly would not be doing all the planning.

I would think you would want to/insist on their being a little engaged in the planning process. One way would to simply have them use google maps to see how far apart and how long a drive each segment of their trip is. Another way would be to send them to http://www.rome2rio.com which would let them see AND compare prices/length of time for various travel options for each segment. This should lead to some discussion, unless their budget is unlimited they will have to make some choices...as we all do when we travel.

Travel helps us grow in many ways. We learn to make choices, plan ahead, understand a little of how the world works, cope with problems and work through difficulties to a happy resolution. Planning the trip, as well as the trip itself, should allow us to experience all of those things. Give them the chance.

My daughter and her friend also made such a trip at age 18. They flew into Paris and out of Rome. They were in charge of how they got between the two airports, where they stayed, and what they saw. I sat in the den with them while they figured out their plans; i.e., where to go, how long to stay, but only provided input when asked. I was there for any questions or 'how to' information, and so I had an idea they were on the correct track. However, they planned the trip, picked the hostels, made any reservations, ordered train tickets, etc. That's part of the reason for letting them go, independence, self-sufficiency, etc. She had a budget. She had a charge card for backup, just in case.

I always say this was the hardest thing I did as a parent: sending my daughter to Paris and leaving it up to her to get to Rome on time. Holding my breathe the whole time. It was also one of the best things I did as a parent. At age 18, it is time to let go. They have things to learn on their own. They need to plan the trip, because that is a huge part of the experience. Also, they will be better prepared when they arrive to follow through and to continue 'growing up'.

IMO, Wray

I'm agreeing with what the others are saying. It's too much moving around to see much of anything unless what they want to see is the countryside as they go by on the train. You all need to be thinking in terms of nights spent in the places you want to go, not days. Five days in Paris really means 6 nights there. And, in spite of my Nice-Rome examples below, I also agree that they should spend more time in the north and skip Italy and Nice altogether.

As already mentioned, Rome2rio is a great resource to see travel options, how long they will take, and maps of the routes. From there you can link to the specifics of buying tickets. Something else Rome2rio can tell you is how to get to a specific hostel from the train or bus station on foot, by taxi, by bus or whatever.

And using the DB Bahn search can quickly give you very specific information on train schedules, routes, changes, stops as well as including a map of the route. It is very useful, even if you can't buy tickets there for any trips unless they involve Germany.

For example, from Nice to Rome (http://www.rome2rio.com/s/Nice/Rome) you can fly in about 4 hours. The train takes about 9 hours but is more scenic. You can adjust the route to stay along the coast as close as possible (which will take longer). Using the DB Bahn search, you can see the schedule that goes very directly from Nice to Rome along the coast in about 9 hours with only one train change. Bummer that it leaves Nice at 05:26. I was wondering why the itinerary doesn't have the Cinque Terre between Nice and Rome since it is on the way. If they insist on doing that, you can use those websites to find out the same information from Nice to one of the Cinque Terre towns and from there on to Rome.

Finally, the more they are involved in the logistics of the trip, not just the romantic fun part, the more prepared they will be for any "issues" that might come up. They need to be able to handle those on the ground on their own without calling you in the middle of your night for help figuring out what to do, say when they get back to the hostel too late and are locked out or maybe if the train is delayed for some reason, or, or, or... This is the voice of experience here, my own, but I was 31 and had planned the whole trip by myself.

At 18 you have to plan like it won't be your last trip. Two days anywhere means you really only get one day traveling there and one day seeing the place. Travel less and see more, I'd plan 3 (or more) night stays.

Logistics will play a big part in planing the itinerary to minimize cost and travel times. Here's an option based on some recent planning I have been doing....

Arrive Paris
Train to Amsterdam
Fly to Venice
Train to CT
Train to Florence
Train to Rome
Fly to Copenghagan

My thought here is that if they are able to plan the trip themselves then they have the capability of carrying out the trip on their own as well. If they can't plan it out themselves then I would question their ability to have the judgement, maturity, and problem solving skills to make the trip on their own.
My son wanted to walk the coast-to-coast path across northern England by himself and I told him that if he planned it all out and put it on paper, then I would pay half and he could go. Once he saw how complex the planning process was he didn't follow through so he's not going. I'm sure when he is older he'll make the trip but for now, if he can't plan it then he probably would have a difficult time on his own.
The girls need to be the ones to plan this trip. If they can follow through with this part then they should be able to handle the complex logistics when they are on their own in Europe. If they can't then I would hesitate to send them.
From a safety perspective, if they are mature and smart they should be fine. I wouldn't hesitate to let my 18 year old daughter travel alone in Europe with a friend...I did it at that age and it was fantastic!
My only other comment is that their itinerary has far too many places on it for just 21 days...they will spend half of their time traveling between locations. I would cut Amsterdam and Copenhagen at the very least and stick to Paris and locations to the south, flying open jaw, into Paris and out of Rome. I think Lauterbrunnen is also difficult when combined with the other locations - doable but it will add significant travel time to the trip.

I agree with those who say if they are old enough to go they should be in charge of their own trip... with possible advice from you or others when they ask it. They should be the ones here asking for help, not you. But, truthfully, it will be the best learning experience for them to just figure it out as they go. They will learn so much about how to navigate in another country and make plans and follow through. Let it be their trip. Also, at this point it may be many years before they can return... with college and a career ahead... so I would plan the trip and see everything I Not everyone returns to Europe for numerous trips... I would make it an incredible memory with no regrets...

Thank you everyone for your responses especially the encouragement to just let go. They have already purchased tickets landing in Paris on 24th of June and out of Copenhagen on 15th of July. I will try to encourage them to look to reduce the number of cities and focus on either the north(France, Switz, Netherlands) or South (France, Italy) with maybe a flight from Rome to Copenhagen at the end.

I just wanted to comment that my BFF and I stayed with Puk and Holger DE LA Cour in Copenhagen - I believe one of Rick Steves private room recommendations. It was centrally located, inexpensive and they were great. We stayed there as 23 year old women. Might be a great place for them to stay in Copenhagen.

What a great adventure. I definitely echo previous posters in that they should assist in the planning, but I do believe they should have more of a firm plan as far as where they are staying - not having that might be a little too flexible. I don't know. Being a parent is such a balance! I wouldn't expect 18 year Olds to sort out every piece of a complex trip that many adults would struggle navigating.

For ex - you're staying in Rome on tuesday. what part of the city do you want to stay in? Let's figure out how you're going to get there from the airport.

smw,

I agree with the others that this trip has too many locations for a time frame of 21 days. Your profile doesn't say where you're located, but I'm assuming you're from the U.S.? Does the 21 days include their two flight days (they'll arrive in Europe the day after they depart*).

It's unfortunate that they've purchased air tickets before the details are worked out. I would have suggested skipping Copenhagen as it's somewhat of an "outlier" with the rest of their route, and it will also likely be the most expensive stop on their trip. Amsterdam is also somewhat distant from the other locations. It would probably be prudent to skip that in order to allow more time for travel between locations, which will be a minimum of half day in most cases and a full day in others.

Would something like this work......

• D1 - Flight to Europe
• D2 / N1 - Arrive Paris (use RER "B" or Roissy Bus to city and then Metro or whatever to the area they'll be staying).
• D3 / N2 - Paris (they might consider buying a Paris Museum Pass depending on the touring they want to do - the Pocket Paris guidebook would also be helpful in planning touring, as many sights are closed one day per week).
• D4 / N3 - Paris
• D5 / N4 - Paris
• DECISION - Fitting in both Lauterbrunnen and Nice is going to be "awkward" given the travel times, so skipping one would simplify the itinerary. What follows is one suggestion.
• D6 / N1 - Lauterbrunnen (shortest travel time is about 5H:34M with minimum two changes using a departure from Gare de Lyon - they'll also have to allow time on the Metro to get from the area they're staying to Gare de Lyon - there are about six rail stations in Paris).
• D7 / N2 - Lauterbrunnen (the only Hostel is the Valley Hostel, but they could also look at the Mountain Hostel in Gimmelwald - this is about the only day they'll have to explore since most of their first day will have been spent in travel).
• D8 / N1 - Cinque Terre (which of the five towns are they planning to stay - quickest trip from Interlaken Ost to Monterosso will be a departure at 08:00, arriving 15:03 with 3 changes, time 7H:03M - they'll have to allow time before that to get from Lauterbrunnen to Interlaken Ost (~20 minutes) - there are some potentially expensive caveats to be aware of when using public transit in Italy! If you need more information, I can send a PM with my usual "boilerplate" on the subject - there are only two Hostels in the C.T., one in Manarola and one in Corniglia - the latter is the least visited village due to its location high on a rock bluff - they could look at booking an Affitacamere or other accommodation in the C.T. at that would give them a wider choice of places to stay).
• D9 / N2 - Cinque Terre
• D10 / N3 - Cinque Terre
• D11 / N1 - Rome (easiest and quickest travel is to connect with one of the direct trains from La Spezia Centrale to Roma Termini - about 3H:45M).
• D12 / N2 - Rome (use Pocket Rome guidebook).
• D13 / N3 - Rome
• D14 / N4 - Rome
• D15 / N1 - Venice (quickest travel is via the high speed Freccia trains which travel from Roma Termini to Venezia Santa Lucia at up to 300 kmH - time 3H:45M direct).
• D16 / N2 - Venice
• D17 / N3 - Venice (perhaps day trip to Padova or excursions to Burano / Murano).
• D18 / N1 - Copenhagen (using a budget flight would be the best option - if they don't mind a short layover in Barcelona, Vueling has a flight that departs at 09:20, arrival at 16:35 - other airlines will probably be more expensive - booking early would be prudent).
• D19 / N2 - Copenhagen
• D20 / N3 - Copenhagen
• D21 - Flight home

There are many possibilities, and this is only one suggestion.

They might consider getting a HI Hostels membership, as they have properties in most cities - they're clean and well run and not "party palaces" - they'll need to pack a few "extras" for hostel stays - if you need more info, post another note).

Wow again thank you, thank you, thank you all for such great responses. We will reconvene and I will re post with any updated questions.

They are 18 year olds - which to me lends itself perfectly to trying to see lots in a short amount of time. If they want to see lots of places, and can figure out the logistics, I would let them do it their way.

In my own experience (I was an 18 year old daughter once), travelling was sitting on a train laughing with my friends, getting lost and figuring it out, staying in terrible and amazing hostels and having an orange to last me a day because I had run out of local currency and didn't want to get more out. I certainly have no regrets.
If the internet had been around then, I may well have been more organised and chosen better accommodation, but I don't know that it would have made a better trip. To be honest, I still haven't developed an appreciation for multiple museums, churches and galleries.
I think they'll get the most enjoyment out of a trip they've planned themselves, and would avoid getting overly involved, beyond giving them some tips (or showing them where to get good info or examples of other itineraries).
My answer may be different if you are bankrolling this trip...

One of my son's had a trip similar to Kiwi's, less ground but a lot of enriching experiences interacting with others. He remembers the guitar sessions in the hostels better than the interiors of the chateau he saw. Wherever he went, he hung out with others his age from all over the world, and that was the beauty of his trip. He covered very little ground geographically but every day was filled with experience.

I say this a lot.. but it bears repeating.. when planning an itinerary and having to narrow down choices( which I think they should) consider the places you have chosen to spend 2 nights in only. Two nights is only one full day in a destination.. is it worth taking a flight or long train trip somewhere for only one full day.. if you are not 100 % sure.. then perhaps that is one that could go off the list for this trip.

They are young.. they will get back .. eventually.

And lastly.. as pointed out.. the more complicated the plan,, the more chances for something to go off wrong. They don't want a tour of train stations and airports right., so get them to focus on what exactly they think they want to see or do in a destination.. then edit out ones where they have only a vague idea why its even on their list ( other then "so and so said we should see it")