Suckling pig, foie gras, rabbit, etc. -- Have you changed your mind about what's over the line?

Rick Steves has been pretty consistently pro foie gras in his show segments and public Q&A, but in a considered/measured way, much like he is with bullfighting.

European consensus seems well on the way to shifting though. This is from 2016:
https://www.finedininglovers.com/article/foie-gras-where-it-actually-banned

Note that my interest here is both the particulars of what you consider in-bounds and out-of-bounds and also the larger issue of whether one's mindset on these issues is fixed or alters as it alterations finds.

I grew up in an immigrant household and have eaten what to Americans are weird bodily parts of several animals. When in other countries we’re open to eating what is normal there but we’ve so far drawn the line at horse meat and fried insects.

You might remember that Mr. and I ate foie gras for the first time last year and though there was some guilt, we kept eating. The French say it isn’t a cruel practice. When in France do as the French?

I have witnessed you eating bacon and was confused so I am glad you clarified that:)

Avirosemail, what a stunning opening sentence!

My answer is that, no, I do not think about the little lamb as I'm devouring its chops or of the goose/duck as I'm enjoying foie gras. I now feel exposed and am gearing up my defenses!
Carol, my mother cooked as her French mother did: rabbit, sweetbreads, tripe, pig's knuckles etc. She did stop at sucking the brains out of the fish head. . .

I gave up all meat as a teenager and never looked back. All it took was to see how the animals are kept/ raised firsthand; that's a memory that never left me. I'm sure I'm missing out on all sorts of "tastes" but it's more than ok; it's better for my mental and physical health in the end.

Trying local cuisine, to me, is part of the experience of travel. I've never felt guilty eating anything because it's usually a food that has been consumed for hundreds of years. Foie Gras and snails in France, baby octopus in Puglia, pigs knuckles with hot sauerkraut in Germany, and haggis and blood sausage in the UK.

I grew up eating tongue, chicken livers cooked in chicken fat, herring, lamb, and much more. So, except for eating bugs, which I still pass on, there is very little I won't try. Okay, perhaps no fermented shark.

I don't criticise anyone from devouring or abstaining from these foods. It's a personal choice.

We grew up in south Louisiana so our menus at home and restaurants were varied. I love fried oysters, frog legs, of course shrimp. Duck is very good, rabbit is pretty good, squirrel stew is good, fried alligator is good but one of the best things is turtle soup, it's very rich. And don't forget crayfish! I eat foie gras in France. In an overseas trip, I think it was Korea, we ate chocolate covered crickets.

To each his own.

This is an interesting topic and I look forward to reading more responses.

I ate whale in Norway and Iceland. I ate foie gras for the first time in France in 2022.

I was chastised by a RSE tourmate for eating a sentient being. I did avoid taking a bite into that conversation.

I have decided to partake of the local diet while traveling. If I ever move to France or Norway or Iceland where the item is available on a daily basis, I will consider the ethics of it more carefully.

Hmmm, interesting. My father was the child of immigrants; my mother was raised in a dirt poor rural Oklahoma family. Anything edible was welcome. Squirrel, rabbit, catfish were welcome. My dad talked about his grandmother scraping the mold off loaves of rye bread she had baked, then stored in the cellar. Ditto hams, sausages, bacon, and other cured meats. Innards were nutritious and cheap, therefore welcome in both families.

First as a student, then later as a professional, I spent several years in Poland, where I first encountered dishes made from blood and brains. Later European travel introduced me to foie gras, andouiette, snails, and goodness knows what else.

There are foods I have eaten that I don't much care for, and will avoid in future, but offhand I can't think of anything I would refuse for ethical reasons. Monkey, perhaps. I will say that I'm always taken aback by how much a stewed chicken foot (added to flavor the stock) looks like a baby's hand.

We also find ourselves leaning more toward organic, free range, or local meats and eggs as they become more widely available and affordable.

I'm reminded of an Isaac Asimov Science Fiction short story.

It was set in the future where all meat was grown in Vats. A man was explaining to the ruling council why they should ban a new meat that was becoming wildly popular. He had to explain that the tissue cultures in the vats historically came from living creatures, which made some of the Council members physically ill.

Then the story ended with the sentence: "Now Councilors, I have to explain a new term from our past "C..a..n..n..a..b..a..l..i..s..

Have you changed your mind about what's over the line.

NOPE, and likely never will, if the only options available are Tofu or other over-processed plant-based foods.
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WELL, would you looky here - ‘Fuah!’ sure: the vegan foie gras selling out across Spain

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jan/02/fuah-vegan-foie-gras-selling-out-europe-us

I try to check both my preconceptions and my privilege when facing new, unusual , and perhaps off-putting foods. They might be delicacies within the local culture.

"Over the line" for me generally involves taste or the "squeamish factor" rather than ethics. When we're in a new country I find out about local cuisine, and then make my choices based on how it's likely to taste. On a related note: recently in the P-NW there was a rescue of several hundred rabbits, and my first thought was, are they rescuing them as pets or as food?

The dab of fake foie gras on the upper left in the photo in periscope’s Guardian article looks like a gargoyle head.

I’m not a huge fan of organ meats. My husband’s more adventurous in that regard. But having raised pet bunnies as a kid, he draws the line at rabbit. Horse, for the same reason. Staying at an agriturismo in Umbria two years ago, we had dinner there each night, with whatever they’d prepared, all raised on their farm. The night it was clear the main course was rabbit (we asked, “coniglio?,” and were told, “Si!”), I had a couple of bites, and he ate a lot of bread and the vegetable side of the evening.

BTW, haggis? Delicious! After a Scotland trip, we named our new cat Haggis. I’ll still gladly have haggis (don’t need a full explanation of what’s in it), but won’t ever dine on cat.

Frank, from Highlands Ranch on the other side of the Denver Metro area may chime in this thread, but on another thread from the last couple of days, about good/bad food surprises while traveling, posted that you’ve never lived until you’ve had guinea pig on a stick, sold roadside in Peru. Uh, I’ll pass.

But pass me the foie gras, yes - although a slab of grilled liver, not so much.

Then, not for moral reasons, or queasiness, but just for flavor — who has a problem with cilantro?

My husband likes dried coriander, but says the fresh leaves, so common nowadays with Mexican and Thai food, among other cuisines, tastes like soap. Occasionally he’s got to taste a small bit of the green garnish on a dish to determine whether it’s cilantro or flat-leaf parsley.

Dogs, cats, horse, bugs, brains, eyeballs, intestines, stomach, lung, rodents, or anything that stinks like stinky fish and stinky cheese is a no for me.
I wrestle with foie gras, lamb and veil. I feel guilty eating them. I’m willing to try many things, and I’m sure there are many things I would probably refuse to eat if presented. Dolphins, whales, penguins and the like, I’d probably pass.
A few years back a local restaurant was serving lion for a hefty price. No thanks.
We were a poor family when I was a kid. We survived on rabbits, squirrels, deer and mutton. We were terrorized.

I don’t try to push my food eating values (or sometimes lack of) on anyone else. But, yes the foie gras and baby anything won’t be on my plate. The only thing that has changed is I eat a lot smaller portion of meat than I did years ago.

If drinking coffee in general becomes an issue, I will definitely be tuned out from listening! ; )

Had foie gras in Paris in 2016, also horse in rural France, and reindeer in Sweden. People object to eating the 4 legged animals for emotional reasons that I don't share, and for cruelty to the ducks which I think is legit to oppose.

I draw the line on organ meats at brains (have seen it on Paris menus "tartare" and no way I am eating cooked much less raw brains), and anything that stinks or tastes bad or is overly hot spicy (happens more often in certain areas in China and SE Asia than Europe). Love liver, gizzard, beef tongue, kidneys...have eaten those my entire life.

I once tried beef tartare in Paris, just not a fan of the taste and texture, plus a little skeeved out by the raw prep, only had it once as an appetizer - once was enough.

Since I became a mom, I have stopped eating baby animals - veal, lamb, suckling pig. If other people around me eat those meats, that is ok with me, I just personally cannot.

Have changes in social mores or ethical standards over the past few
years prompted you to rethink some of your eating habits?

Good question, good topic. Easy answer is no. Maybe we should ask who gets to decide what is ethical. A quick Google search and I find a case for everything to be unethical to someone. The latest in the news around here were Mexican Avocados, or every TV commercial about coffee brings up how their's is ethically sourced. But then I read an article that no coffee is really ethically sourced. Even chocolate is a target because of palm oil. Prawns, octopus, cod, beef, chicken, milk, nut butters, even bagged salad is considered unethical by some because it comes in a plastic bag.

I can't wait for electric vehicles to be considered unethical because lithium isn't ethically sourced. Will that make all foods unethical because it's transported cleanly, but unethically?

I've become averse to eating a couple of things I've tried in the past. I've eaten whale in Norway, for instance, and I couldn't do so again ever since I had an amazing encounter with a whale that lasted almost 30 minutes. I love octopus, but now that I know more about how intelligent they are, I tend not to order it. Those are my own choices, and I don't think other people are unethical for choosing differently.

As another poster mentioned, the whole guinea pig (cuy) on a stick was something I couldn't bring myself to try in Peru. Had it been chopped up in a stew or something, sure, but looking at the little toes....uh, no.

Some things I've tried but don't care for. Raw seal meat is an example. Liver is another.

Some things I can't bring myself to try due to the disgust factor. Bugs are an example. I was at a hotel a couple of weeks ago that had beef with a grasshopper topping on the menu, and that was a nope.

On our trip to Namibia, my husband and I say that we ate the cast of The Lion King. LOL. We tried springbok, kudu, oryx, wildebeest, hartebeest, warthog, ostrich, crocodile, zebra, etc. Oryx was my favourite, and I had it several times.

Mostly, I'm open to trying local foods, and I've probably increased my food repertoire, partly in response to travel, and partly in response to increased availability of certain foods (e.g. bison is available in many stores, and now we have a cousin who sometimes shares moose from his hunts with us).

I have zero interest in vegetarianism or veganism. Those are just other words for "bad hunters" to us Cree folk. LOL. Seriously, though, I am respectful of other people's food preferences or restrictions, and I've often offered tofurky, chana masala, and other vegan options at gatherings in my home. However, I have a real problem when settlers try to tell us that our traditional ways of eating are wrong, and, similarly, I don't judge people in other countries for their food traditions.

I'm glad that BB finally got this thread around to mentioning bison and ostrich -- it's another part of the complicated influences on food practices that sometimes a little entrepreneurial spirit tries to convince people to get into a niche business -- a few years back a lot of Napa area restaurants started putting ostrich on the menu, but as far as I can tell it hasn't caught on. Bison is having a slightly better go at it; many local markets have ground bison available.

In the posted comments here, it seem like sticking to your guns is winning out so far; the only changes mentioned are people who have had kids are eating fewer baby animals than before they had kids, and people who are more aware of how the seas are being swept clean of fish or the pig farms are industrializing slaughter are thinking twice about choosing fish and pork.

Are there overall lessons to draw about how our collective consciences can't stand up to individual behaviors?

The colorful country singer Skeeter Davis ("The End of the World") often said that she could not eat anything with a face. She kept dozens of animals including ocelots in her suburban Nashville home. She was also famous for refusing to perform where alcohol was served due to her faith. Her ex-husband DJ Ralph Emory was quite uncomplimentary about her.

Silas Marner, I guess it’s safe to say that Skeeter Davis never ordered a Prime Rib Margarita!

Or a Rum and Koala.

Nor a mortadella martini, shaken or stirred!

I’m at a stage in my life where I wish I could just take a pill and it be a days requirement of essential nutrients to thrive. I guess I am tired of cooking.
Bison and ostrich used to be common where I live, but no longer.

I guess I am tired of cooking

Singing Amen to that. Problem is, the alternatives just aren't that great for daily living.

Or a Rum and Koala.

Koalas are a protected species so we don't eat them in Australia. We do, however, eat kangaroo. It's a very lean meat and needs to be cooked just right or can be leathery.

Rick Steves has been pretty consistently pro foie gras in his show
segments and public Q&A, but in a considered/measured way,

How do you torture a goose in a considered/measured way?

I'm reminded of these Anthony Bourdain quotes:

"To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living.”

and

“I think food, culture, people and landscape are all absolutely inseparable.”

But my favorite is:

"Like I said before, your body is not a temple, it’s an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”

How do you torture a goose in a considered/measured way?

Rick’s Dordogne episode shows a farmer depositing a measured amount of grain into geese, by means of a controlled funnel and the use of gravity. The geese are not force-fed using any kind of ramrod method. No squawking or tortured honking happened on screen. As I recall, his guidebook also gives a matter-of-fact description of how foie gras is developed by farmers.

It’s been nearly 5 years since Anthony Bourdain hanged himself. Probably not associated with the culinary ride he enjoyed as a chef and eater, but life’s not all about food. Or maybe it is - “You are what you eat.”

Then there’s this from Mark Twain, “Part of the secret of success in life is to eat what you like and let the food fight it out inside.”

Your system may ultimately determine what’s over the line.

@AMann,
I would never judge anyone for NOT eating whale. I probably won't do it again myself. But the whale eaten in Iceland and Norway are not in danger of being extinct. I know they are considering banning the eating of whale on ethical grounds, but my understanding is that the species they consume are not in danger of extinction.

Cyn,

Denis rhythmically grabs a goose by the neck, pulls him under his leg
and stretches him up, slides the tube down to the belly, and fills it
with corn. He pulls the trigger to squirt the corn, slowly slides the
tube up the neck and out, holds the beak shut for a few seconds, lets
that goose go, and grabs the next.

https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/tms/wellfed-geese-in-frances-dordogne

Since I'm particularly interested in whether anyone has changed their behavior after learning something,
I want to put an asterisk beside the octopus mention -- these creatures are getting some time in the limelight for how clever they are even though they are so strange from a mammalian perspective,
and the possible trend that people might eat less of them not because they seem icky but because they show more intelligence than previously noticed is one datum for the changeable column in this counting.

Does this bleed over into whales and porpoises? How about blackbirds? Aren't some pigs relatively bright and some dogs pretty stupid?

I recently enjoyed an appetizer of Octopus Carpaccio with a mild Sriracha Sauce - very tasty.

How about eating dog?

How does that go down with all the above comments? Because it is a such a good pet in the US.
So when you are in Hanoi and you see half a roast dog for sale on a table, or you see a bunch of kittens on the back of a motorcycle, on their way to….
How does that work for you?

Is it a, when in Rome, thought process?

We can easily dismiss Guinea pigs, goose livers, and whales. How about those pooches?

How about eating dog?

To be honest, since I eat most animals, it would be a bit hypocritical to say it would be off limits...the right culture, part of the cuisine...why not?

I can say ethical issues really do not come into play when choosing a dish. Food safety? yeah, that has caused me to pass on some things. Past taste experiences? Yeah, had some things that just did not taste good, glad I had them, but no driving need to have again (Lamprey in Portugal fits that, not bad, but not that good that I would seek it out) plus a few offal type cuts. Something out of place is a pass, for example, most larger fish in any Mediterranean country is a pass, it likely is not local, probably frozen, so go for the small fish. (there are a few exceptions, Sicily and swordfish, some fish in Spain and Portugal). Then there are things I just know I have no interest in, like Bolut (Philippines) or Ortolan (France).

I'd like to change my answer. I'll need to punch you in the nose, or kick you even lower if I see you eating a dog. I guess I have some food ethics after all.

Most of the problem arises from people treating animals as family i.e. dogs, horses, and the like. People in Asia treat animals as sustenance.

Let's avoid these broad generalizations about what People Here or People in Asia do or don't do (Wearing my emma hat for a moment)

I was assuming (oops) that dogs were obviously part of this topic -- part of the inspiration for my post on the 19th was that the DW News is running a series all week on debates about meat eating, meat production, and meat substitutes, and the teaser commercial for the show is a yummy burger on a plate in closeup and the voiceover says 'what if I told you that wasn't meat from a cow, but from Golden Retrievers?' DW TV inspires a lot of my posts here in the forum, actually.

After reading this-- https://www.villagevoice.com/2011/08/01/dog-meat-what-does-it-taste-like/

I cannot imagine that 'fido burgers' or 'rover stew' is going to catch on any more widely than it is.

I doubt Allan will have to bloody his knuckles any time soon

It’s really advantageous if you can travel to new places and have the opportunity to try new dishes if you’re interested, without inadvertently eating something you’d choose to not eat.

Even Nutella has its detractors.

I see horse and donkey salami on sale at the markets in Frankfurt. This is a big No from me, the same as eating dogs and cats and since a few years, octopus. (netflix - My Friend the Octopus)
Having flirted with being vegetarian and vegan for the past 20+ years, am now firmly vegetarian. Eating sentient beings has become something I no longer want to do.
Still struggling to give up cheese and eggs though.

They were doing a commercial in Spain I think, where they were selling fresh pork sausage. When people ordered it they opened a box that had live baby pigs in it, grabbed one out and made as if they were going to kill it and toss it in a meat grinder. Customers were shocked, crying no, no, no.
When people see that it is a live animal, it is all cute. When it is cut up and sitting in a refrigerator or on a grill, it is somehow different.

Baby animals certainly turn up the cuteness factor, compared with, say, an 800-lb. hog with caked-on mud. One thing about modern society, somebody else does the slaughtering, butchering, and clean-up, and shoppers just have to pull out a tidy package at the market. Unfortunately, with corporate farms, much of the vegetable and fruit production seems to be handled by massive machines, and the result is frequently produce on the shelf that looks as if it’s already been eaten.

I just read an article today about bullfrogs, common in eastern and midwestern North America, but now an invasive species in Utah, where authorities are encouraging residents to catch and eat them. How about frogs? Anybody go to France with that menu item at the top of their dining list?

Cyn, I had frog legs in Columbus, Ohio back in the 70's. They were not uncommon to find on menus.

As a child Disney/Disneyland has ruined the idea of eating certain meats for me.....LOL

Deer equals "Bambi" to me
Rabbit equals "Thumper" to me
Duck equals "Huey, Dewey and Louie" to me

I will not eat baby animals......Veal or Lamb
I do not eat any Pork as Pigs are very intelligent and I feel bad for them.
I refuse to eat any organ meats or insects

I basically eat Fish and Chicken which I also have also have issues with but do eat. I am basically very close to being a Vegetarian at this stage in my life.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/36/3b/1e363b1bc2f285c2978d4201ce084978.jpg

I've tried octopus, and if it weren't for those chewy suckers, I'd say it was just OK. But on our Sicily tour, I saw in the Ballardo market, bins of prenatal octopi for sale. Imagine a pile of completely transparent glistening pac-men about the size of my thumb. No octopus for me thank you.

And now I will always think of frogs in chairs when I see that on the menu.

Hmmm, are Gummy Worms or Animal Crackers “gateway” items, enticing children to a life of carnivorism?

Maybe “baby-cut” carrots is an unfortunate term.

Ringo Starr wrote Octopus’s Garden after learning about how an octopus will creatively arrange the space in front of its lair with bits of shiny objects.

He’s been vegetarian for a long time, I understand.

I stopped eating all animal flesh 50 years ago, as soon as I read "Diet for a Small Planet" and realized that I didn't have to eat meat to survive. It was a matter of how I felt about animals. Yep. No more BLT's for me, which confounded my mother immensely. Ten years later I resumed eating fish and seafood. I was pregnant and needed the protein and fish didn't seem so personal to me..... However, recently I've watched some videos and documentaries about octopi. I have loved eating calamari in the past, especially when in Italy. But, no. Those octopus personalities are weird and wonderful and I can no longer eat calamari, no matter how tasty. It's a relational thing.

I support the choices that pescatarians, vegetarians and vegans make.

If it was ethical to keep an little old lady captive in my kitchen that could cook me Indian style dishes for all of my meals I would happily become a vegetarian.

I believe that a plant based diet, when done properly is extremely healthy.

I would like to point out, however, that every living animal on Earth lives through the death of other living things on Earth. Do you know for sure that plants aren't "sentient"? Our understanding of things has changed drastically in the past 100 years. I find it interesting where people draw their lines. Not that I think I know where they should be drawn. It is OK to eat fish because they are cold and creepy looking, but an octopus is not OK? I don't get this.

Thankfully, we each get to decide for ourselves.

I am preparing for a trip to Japan. I have been watching youtube videos and I have seen people eating raw horse and raw chicken. I realized that out of necessity, Americans (and others) have been taught, in a very aggressive manner, that raw chicken not only can kill you but it is also completely disgusting. These are learned ideas that won't likely get unlearned during travel.

The two traditional denominations of Jains, the Svetambaras and Digambaras (white-clothed and sky-clothed [i.e. naked]), do indeed debate over which vegetables are least animated. Both look at Buddhist monks with their sandals and staffs and other luxuries and tut-tut at the excess, while they themselves are careful not only to sweep the ground before they step on it lest they squash an insect, but they also get in the habit of brushing off the hard palette they sleep on any time they turn over at night, out of concern for hurting anything that might be there beside them. The digambaras believe that owning a begging bowl is a dangerous compromise with possessiveness - they accept only donations that they can hold in their cupped hands.