Van or Train for 1st-timers with two teens and grandparents

Well, driving in general is pretty easy. But what makes me think train for you is this;

1) 1st-timers
2) Van=unusual=big=very expensive
3) Train=bathrooms without stopping
4) I assume you would be taking a train to Paris anyway - might as well just use the train for everything. There may be senior discounts, too.

BTW- Salzburg- Berner Oberland? A VERY long drive in one day. And, a little redundant, as there is plenty of considerably less expensive Alpine splendor in Germany and Austria. Although the Lauterbrunnen Valley and the area around Interlaken might be the single most beautiful region of the Alps... most of the Alps are extremely beautiful. The Berner Oberland, in my opinion, makes sense for some itineraries, but for many, it's a very expensive side trip far out of their way.

Have you checked to see if this itinerary is pracitcal to do by train, i.e. what kind of layovers and connections would you have? What is the driving time compared to train? What are the costs of each including fuel and tolls?

I wonder what the second-country drop-off fee would be for a big van? It's rough enough for a regular car. Maybe dump it in Munich and press on from their via train?

In December I spoke with a travel agent who said that she had written confirmation (as of that date) that the fee would be $70 to drop-off in Switzerland.

Driving wouldn't be that bad then. It gives you door-to-door service for the crowd, a place to leave luggage while sight seeing, a bit of flexibility in departure times for the herd of folks. (My kids were slow to get moving, adding to frustration, and older folks are usually chomping at the bit to get on with the day.)

The worst (longest) day would be Salzburg to Interlaken which is about 450 miles on good roads --say maybe seven hours, not counting stops. Not that bad. Leave after breakfast, arrive in time to get settled and walk around before supper, even with a nice lunch stop.

Wild guess is that trains for six would far exceed the cost of a van rental.

You'll need to watch the luggage bulk. I've used a seven-passenger van for four adults and the other couple had so much stuff (much not used) that we had to pound it into the cargo space and the third seat area.

Reverse order would stink. Always put Paris last since it's invariably the highlight of any trip.

With that many people and luggage, a van probably makes more sense. Make sure everyone takes only 1 suitcase and 1 backpack. Maybe even less. Maybe the older ones can combine to one suitcase and the girls also, plus husband and wife. That makes 3 suitcases and 6 backpacks. That might fit ok in the back of the van. Taking a van also saves lugging stuff up and down stairs in a station, and getting from the station to the hotel, which might be quite a hike and you might have to take a cab or two with all of your luggage in tow, which increases costs. Also the narrow isles on the train, are a pain to haul luggage up and down and trying to put a 50 lb suitcase on top of the seats rack can be dangerous to say the least. On the train bathrooms, I hope the ones they are talking about are better and cleaner than the ones I encountered in my train travels in Europe. Nough said on that stinky subject!

Once in Paris, turn the van in. You will not need it in the city. It becomes a liability. No free parking. Parking decks start at 20E per day and up. When leaving Paris for flight home, there are several ways to the airport- Roisssybus, Metro, cab, car service. With 6 and luggage, might take two cabs and at that rate, Metro and bus become competitive. Also, look at local tourist information on your computer for the towns you want to visit. If the towns have a park and ride, find it and take it. Parking a van in small German villages . . . . NO WAY, unless life depended on it. Remember fuel-gas in Europe is around 8.00 per gallon. If you have a choice of fuels, diesel is cheaper than gas and better mpg too.

I have traveled with two other families, plus my toddler son, on a very similar route to what you have ahead of you -- mine was 4 adults, 2 late 60-somethings, teenager, toddler.

I would do a van from Frankfurt to Bad Mergentheim / Rothenburg / Neuschwanstein and turn it in in Munich.

I'd then use a train to Salzburg, make sure to take the scenic train from Salzburg to Zurich connecting to the Berner Oberland. Definitely do not take the long drive from Salzburg to the Berner Oberland -- it's crazy long and you will miss the chance to take the Maria Theresa scenic train -- which was awesome (5 hrs Salz-Zur).

You can catch a fast train or plane from either Basel or Geneva to Paris.

If you did it in the reverse order the advantage would be that your group gets acclimated to Europe before you hit the driving portion, plus Grampa's last look at Europe would be his home town.

Finally, have a plan for where to park a van in Munich -- -- if you are side-tripping Munich to Neuschwantstein a van is nice to have -- but you can't find a place on the street to park a big van near most Pensions (...been there... done that... parked dozens of blocks away...), so springing for a more expensive hotel that has parking could be wise.

"Wild guess is that trains for six would far exceed the cost of a van rental."

I won't try right now to estimate Salzburg to the Berner Oberland to Paris, but for the German part, six people, FRA - Bad Mergentheim - Rothenburg odT - Füssen - Munich - Salzburg, can be done by rail and bus for €277.40 (about $400).

I got those prices using Gruppen tickets (plus 1 P2P) for the Verkehrverbünden (RMV, VRN) and Länder-Tickets (RL-P and Bayern) plus bus fares from Weikersheim to Rothenburg. Note that the group of you can go anywhere in Bavaria for €48 (€28 Bayern-Ticket plus one €20 Bayern-Ticket-Single).

What was the quote for the van rental for that part of the trip? ViaMichelin estimates the cost, just for gas for a sedan (they don't do vans) plus road tax in Austria, for that trip (FRA-Salzburg) at €117.47 ($168).

If you leave for the Berner Oberland from Freilassing, Germany, right across the river from Salzburg, you might be able to get Europa-Spezial Schweiz fares online from the German Rail website for €39 per person (€234, $336 for 6). That might be a little "dicey" since tickets are limited, and you have six people.

No doubt the van is the more expensive proposition. You can beat these rates, but Avis is quoting a mini-van picked up at Frankfurt airport and dropped at Munich train station for about $800 or a full size van for $900 for a 6-day rental, plus you've got to fuel it.

I simply like a car in/near/around areas like Rothenburg and Neuschwanstein for the flexibility it offers for things like time in the country, picnics, etc. -- and I'm normally a 'the train is better' proponent, just not in this particular case.

Thanks for the advice and ideas.